Homeworld 2 Complex 8.4.3

[maddeath]

@ DJ Die
Dont get me wrong. I love research. My ships always get the full program, often before they even get built.

However, there already are 3 armor, speed and damage upgrades for most ships. Adding more would make little difference in gameplay. If the opponent is stupid enough not to upgrade his fleet, then you will stomp him with your 3 upgrades any time. Now if both of you upgrade, then not even 100 levels of research in the same area will make a difference, cos your ships will always be about even in attributes.
Therefore I would like to see more variety in upgrades and add more tactical differences between vgr and hiig fleets via the upgrades I have suggested.

As for the fighter armor upgrade. I'm rather pro. Fighter class is currently useless. It needs powerups badly to raise from its role of a harmless little pest.

[james808]

I normally play as Hiigarian against a team comprised of an expert Vaygyr CPU and a hard Vargyr CPU with all start up options configured the standard way (as a Mac user, I have no choice about that .

In 6.6, this WAS basically impossible. In 6.7, this is again a fun match up.

I skip fighters, corvettes, and regular destroyers. I use a few flack and missile frigates early on, but basically rely on the Mothership and assorted support vessels for defense until I can build Ion destroyers. CPU usually attacks with a battlecruiser or two after I have a few destroyers built, and at this stage it is almost mandatory to capture one with marine frigates in order to survive.

After the first battle cruiser attack, I usually have the heavy ion cannon and a command fortress built. At this point it is possible to go the offensive and get into some really fun ship to ship battles. Obviously the longer the game goes on, the more things start to go the Hiigarian's way.

[vila]

Just played 6.7 on Hard, Hig vs Hig on Complex Normal. Flak rush worked perfectly.... AGAIN.
I built 3 additional resource collectors, 5 flak frigates, research station, 5 more flak frigates, a crew station, 1 scavenger, a couple of missile frigates, another scavenger, a bunch more flak, then a carrier... in that order. The first 5 flaks went straight to his resource collectors, took out a few, then took out his light carrier followed by his research station. Then they just hang back, are joined by the following flaks and missile frigates, who are rally pointed straight to his doorstep, and destroy new carriers and crew stations as he builds them.
I was repelled back eventually, as i was careful not to loose too many frigates. But with a MS and Carrier producing flaks and missile frigs continuously, i soon had an armada of frigates. He produces several destroyer one after another, so i research destroyer and start building my own from the MS. I had about 17 flaks and 6 missile frigates which took out his destroyers without too much trouble... remember to pull back wounded frigates, so that he keeps attacking fresh ones. This way you get the best firepower. By the time i produced 3 destroyers and hyperspaced them to the action, he built his first ion destroyer. It was dead in seconds, then i concentrated fire on his MS. Then he pops out a juggernaught. I keep fire on his MS, but spread out my fleet so that if his jugger gets to anyone, it wont kill them all.
Then he dies. I clean up another carrier with my destroyers and its game over, all without resorting to nukes, vipers or anything bigger than a destroyer.

Do it properly, you cant loose and a vaygr human cant possibly defend against it.

Missile frigates and destroyers? I thought you were previously saying this works with just flaks? If you're using missiles from the outset and destroyers later it's hardly a 'flak rush', is it?

You say it can't fail against a human, but previously you seem to have implied that it also works against the AI, which can build at least 5 times as fast as a human player.

However, reading your detailed campaign description and the one by James808 has strengthened my opinion that Complex does something very different on my system than what it does on others. I don't believe I could reproduce those scenarios in my game, particularly James808's.

I have just seen further confirmation of this strangeness. I decided to try the 'flak rush' one more time in the light of your new revelations. I set up a game in the Lonely Islands map. As the screen opened I noticed that the mining base at the far end of the map was in the process of exploding! I've noticed spontaneous explosions at start-up in previous games but had never been able to figure out what was exploding - this time there was no question.

Has anyone else experienced this phenomenon?

[Tingmore]

One in every... say... four games I see the exploding mining base. I think it depends on what angle you start your game in? But certainly I have seen the exploding mining base before, however this was not detrimental to game play.

Our initial contention was that in a Hiig v. VAYGR encounter, a flak rush will work every time. If it works against the expert AI (it does) then certainly it will work against a human player. This was to highlight the inbalanced Vaygr setup at the start of the game.

Certainly in a Hiig v. Hiig encounter it may work against the AI who does not know any better, but against a human because both sides are equally matched, it may not. It seems that the AI wastes lots of money on fighters which are just chewed up by flaks. This may be a defunct strategy beecause fighters have been rendered useless in the Complex mod.

[vila]

If it works against the expert AI (it does) . . .

Just tried again (no exploding mine base) following Nerb's above method to the letter. It doesn't work!

It doesn't work for one simple reason: by the time you get to the point where you have built the 2 missile frigates you have no more crew, therefore you can build no more ships. The ships you have won't be able to knock out heavy missile platforms as fast as they are built and all your ships will eventually be destroyed.

I had to retreat all my ships to protect their health (losing one flak to the missiles) but they were then attacked by 4 sqdns of missile corvettes and 3 of multi-lance corvettes and I lost another flak before I had destroyed the attackers.

I then had no option but to wait - with no more crew I couldn't build any more ships and those I had were in no state to fight against the 12 heavy missile platforms and 5 gun platforms which the Vaygr AI now had. By this time the AI had built its first shipyard and the result was a foregone conclusion.

By the time my ships' health had returned the AI had 6 warfare frigates, 2 artillery frigates and 4 destroyers and had built 3 shipyards which together with the flagship began churning out more destroyers and frigates like there was no tommorrow.

The warfare frigates used EMP to paralyse my ships which were then wiped out one by one and the AI ships began moving towards my MS.

Unable to build ships I had once again resorted to vipers and took out all the approaching destroyers with them. (Another strange point here: twice I fired vipers at destroyers which had only about 5% health and each time, when the missile struck, the destroyer's health INCREASED to about 20-25%!)

A horde of frigates (warfare, heavy missile and artillery) destroyed my resource operation and then turned on my MS , crew and research stations with obvious results.

[Tingmore]

If it works against the expert AI (it does)

Flak Rush (1/3)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ixEvv0ioghg

Flak Rush (2/3)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KHLeh1bflok

Flak Rush (3/3)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GQEZ6-bMLRs

I cut out about a year of game time while my first two flaks were in transit (1/3). I also cut out about a year in which the Vaygr mothership pops out missile platforms while trying to run away (2/3).

I apologise for the crappy resolution but otherwise it would have taken me ages to upload. *raises his fist at his inferior wireless network*

I've done this many times and have only failed once (my first time when I waited until I had 10 flaks). Sometimes its a little bit harder than shown, most times its easier - I guess that depends on the AI. And don't forget that the AI gets an advantage, you will notice that I've destroyed all his resourcing capabilities but he just keeps on churning out platforms.

I haven't tried this on 6.7 yet. But if you guys haven't noticed a huge difference between 6.6 and 6.7 in terms of Flak strength, then it should be roughly the same.

As I've said previously, the flak rush against a human player doesn't have to be fully successful. You may just send out a total of 5 - just enough to get rid of his resource collectors, and that'll push him way behind as he'll have to replace them.

Play this against a human Vaygr player and he will not stand a chance = unbalanced. I'm gonna ask again, but I'm sure I will see nothing but tumbleweed, does anybody here play as Vaygr in pvp scenarios?

[DJ Die]

@maddeath:
in 5.5 where 4-5 bomber wings would strip single ship of all modules in matter of few passes which sucked because enemy usualy used them to target heavy ion on MS and it was almost impossbile to stop them in time so it has to be properly balanced...

[xxobot]

Yeah the heavier modules need to have a different armor sort than usual... but have you thought of putting the rapid sweeper set on the ms?

[DJ Die]

in 5.5 there wasnt rapid sweeper on MS yet you dont know that much about game do you? now they cant do anything i was just pointing out that fighters are going from extreme to extreme from extremely useful to extremely useless

[Nerb]

Vila... as Tingmore says, a "flak rush" doesnt need to completely destroy the enemy with only flaks (although that can be done). As long as your flak rush slows the enemy resourcing, and in my recent description crew and research ships, then you het an overwhelming advantage.

Nice videos Tingmore. I see youve been busy. But get off 6.5.1 and get 6.7. Yes, it works just as effectively in 6.7.

DJDie... You only say effective bombers sucked because they whipped you. I'd much rather have bombers that annihilate subsystems and bigger ships than have no use for fighter craft at all!

[DJ Die]

Nerb: read what i wrote once again THINK and then write something

[Nerb]

DJDie... I read it again...

4-5 bomber wings would strip single ship of all modules in matter of few passes which sucked because enemy usualy used them

This tells me you got whipped by bombers.... so you wanted it changed. I replied that i'd prefer the bombers useful.

If this is wrong, start explaining.... and THINK before you type.

[DJ Die]

read rest of that post idiot...

[Nerb]

so it has to be properly balanced...

By removing their effectiveness? Your not making any sense.
Maddeth posted that the fighters need to be toughened up. You posted that they were too tough in 5.5. If you want fighters to be somewhere half way, just say so. Cause you sound like you want them useless.

[Mikali]

No, Mac users can only run the game with the default settings, independently from any setting they select, it's a know limitation and it's due to the HW2 Mac version that doesn't recognize the "GetGameSettingsAsNumber" instruction.
May be there's a solution, but I can't discover that, cause I'm not on a Mac.

Le Sun Tsu suggests a workaround, here. Have you guys explored this? I'm interested, too.

[edit] Nevermind. See the update in the thread I linked to.