Homeworld 2 Complex 8.4.3

[SlashesWithClaw]

Just downloaded the latest version of Complex yesterday; I had 5.5 previously. Just tried a quick simple game first to see what is new and already found a minor bug or something I do not understand. When you mouse over a Scavenger or Refinery it shows a number involving RU Fusion. However, I have no idea what this number is supposed to be. It does not correspond to my annual income, nor does it correspond to that individual units production; I was only at level one (five RU every five seconds) and it was jumping twenty RUs at a time.

Also, a minor graphical bug, my badge is upside down on the dreadnaught.

I like the changes Vyger Flagship, adding the small defense missiles and twin cannons was perfect.

I also agree with some opinions that a suicide ship does not fit the Higs well. It should launch the nukes and have a really long reload time.

Finally, you should have an InvisionFree forum instead of having all discussion in one thread; it would make talking about Complex a lot easier.

After I play some more serious skirmishes I will give more comments and opinion.

[schnipsl]

hi,

i'm playing complex since version 5.5 and really love it, i think it is one of the best mods out there.

I just encountered a slight issue with version 6.x, compared to 5.5.

In 5.5 when playing against an expert ai player (vaygr), it was a really tough battle. It was really hard to keep defenses (hiigaran) up against the mass of enemy vessels that were approaching, always hitting "pause" for giving commands to save time

Now in 6.3 and 6.4 battling the expert vaygr ai is rather relaxed. The first attack wave comes around year ten, maybe 20 fighter squadrons, which my defenses at that time can almost blast away before they can fire a single shot....

Later on when i already have vortexes or battlecruiser he starts to build destroyers und moves them around on the map rather aimlessly. I tried two maps so far and it was always like this.
the remote monitor shows that the ai has the maximum number of resources (about 105000) and is not even building a shipyard.

To end the battle i send out probes to see everything and one of my vortexes to kill everything.

Well never getting a scratch and only one vortex being required to defeat an expert ai player is a little, well boring...

Question is, has the ai been significantly weekend for 6.x, or do i just have to change some settings to get the strong ai back?

[Alkezo]

Ok, just played as Hiigaran and found it incredibly easy. Resourse collection seemed much much easier. Is there a collection rate difference between the two sides?

The best way to find out which side has a higher rate is to start a map as one side then start again as the other side. However the Vaygr are better in resourcing in the beginning mainly due to cheaper ships, lower maintenance, and building faster. The Hiigarians pull ahead endgame as they have access to higher tier resource upgrades.

I also agree with some opinions that a suicide ship does not fit the Higs well. It should launch the nukes and have a really long reload time.

While it doesn't fit very well, taking it out will only be self defeating and making it fire nuclear missiles would require remodelling and reHUDing the Juggernaut. I'm not too sure all of behgins' team is still there since a lot of his projects that were cancelled were models. It's probably best to just keep it there.

Question is, has the ai been significantly weekend for 6.x, or do i just have to change some settings to get the strong ai back?

The A.I. has actually been improved to make them much better. There's a script that determines their personality. So you much of gotten a A.I. that just builds fighters. That's the problem though. Sometimes you just get a A.I. that only builds fighters and you just completely wipe them out. Now the enemy will even attack your Mothership from behind. The last match I played the enemy had Battlecruisers before I did. Thankfully they were too busy fighting eachother. Then they decided to work together to take me out. I almost lost but I managed to pull through. Needless to say, if A.I. gives me a run for my money then I have to say its pretty good.

[schnipsl]

So what are the chances of getting which ai then, as i said i played two different maps and the ai behaved exactly the same.
Maybe it is also a map related thing? can you maybe give me the name of the map where the ai built battlecruisers early, so i can try that one out?

[SlashesWithClaw]

What program is used to make the 3D models? Blender? Strata? Studio Max? Maya?

[Nerb]

Alkezo... theres no way vayger is easier at the start! Their collectors are cheaper but they definately collect slower. Proof of this is the first AI attack when playing Hiigaran is year 10 or so, and year 3 when playing Vaygar. Hiigaran collect much easier.

[Pete J]

Sithicus said:

Guys, I've build those 3 nuclear launcher on the station but it seems that its not launching those warheads.... ???

You need to manually fire them. Either use the icon in the special abilities menu (bottom left) or use the shortcut ('z' I think).

They are awesome! almost all capital ships go down after two hits. Unfortunately the fortress always seems to hit itself with one.

[Alkezo]

So what are the chances of getting which ai then, as i said i played two different maps and the ai behaved exactly the same.

Unless beghins changed the way the A.I. is scripted, the map has nothing to do with what determines the A.I.'s personality. If I really wanted to I could decompile the file and check the possibilities... but I'm not a script writer so it would be hard to find where that equation might be.

What program is used to make the 3D models? Blender? Strata? Studio Max? Maya?

Relic has a plugin for Maya for the sole purpose of Homeworld 2. Try googling Relic Network Development and search around for that.

Alkezo... theres no way vayger is easier at the start! Their collectors are cheaper but they definately collect slower. Proof of this is the first AI attack when playing Hiigaran is year 10 or so, and year 3 when playing Vaygar. Hiigaran collect much easier.

They may very well be true but you have to consider everything the Hiigarian need to build. The cost of building and maintaining the Crew Station and Research far outweighs any benefits the Hiigarians may have over resourcing.
And how is attacking in different years proof? If you mean by the Vaygr A.I. attacking earlier than Hiigarian then that would lead me to believe that either the Vaygr A.I. focuses more on offensive ships than resourcing ships or that they do indeed have superior resourcing capabilities. If you mean by the player being either race, that has nothing to do with what the A.I. decides. I believe what determines when an A.I. will attack is based on the size of his target's fleet. However that also depends on how beghins scripted it.

Now to bring up something else. Does anyone else experience jumpiness as the game progresses? In the beginning its not noticeable, but as the game goes on it begins to be "laggy." Up to a point where it starts becoming unplayable, which is a little later than when everyone has Battlecruisers and such. If you are having this problem do you have a dual core CPU? I have a 2.01GH dual core and I use ICEAffinity for most of my games to fix any "out of sync" issues they may have due to my motherboard not clocking my CPU correctly. If no one else is having this problem then it may very well be that my 1GB RAM is not enough.

[SlashesWithClaw]

I just tried to get resources from one of the huge pieces of debris floating around. I must be doing it wrong though. I thought I was supposed to capture it with a Marine/Infiltration Frigate and then scuttle it to get a debris field that I could then collect. However, when I did that I lost forty-five honor for blowing up the big debris piece. It said I had –45 in combat.

[LordRevan]

is there a change log for all the new versions of v6.*'s? someone asked earlier, like 50 pages ago, but i dont think there was a reply, anyone?

[motiv-8]

In the beginning its not noticeable, but as the game goes on it begins to be "laggy." Up to a point where it starts becoming unplayable, which is a little later than when everyone has Battlecruisers and such. If you are having this problem do you have a dual core CPU?

Yes! I'm running a Core 2 Duo 6750 2.66GHz and a 8800GT ... For a long while the game runs flawlessly, and then all of a sudden it gets ridiculously, annoyingly choppy.

[Nerb]

I have a 4200+ and 7900GT and it runs flawlessly.

Alkezo, my concern is that at the start of the game, vaygr is extremely difficult because their mining rate is so slow (its 3 per 5 seconds compared to Hiigarans 5 per 5 seconds. Thats 60% faster resourse collecting for hiigaran.)

Later in the game theres no problem and if you start with a heap of RU's theres no problem. But on Complex normal, its impossible for vaygr to defend against an early attacking hiigaran player.

Maybe flak frigates are too powerful? since it makes vaygr fighters useless.

[Ahto]

[QUOTE]
In the beginning its not noticeable, but as the game goes on it begins to be "laggy." Up to a point where it starts becoming unplayable, which is a little later than when everyone has Battlecruisers and such. If you are having this problem do you have a dual core CPU?

Yes! I'm running a Core 2 Duo 6750 2.66GHz and a 8800GT ... For a long while the game runs flawlessly, and then all of a sudden it gets ridiculously, annoyingly choppy.

- I am using 4 GHz and 1.1 GB RAM, 7500 for graphic and Intel IV chip. When you play, disable Complex Help (by default, it's on). I found that after I disabled it, my game got much faster.

- And I have a problem. I changed the research stats and after that, I'm getting almost nothing on my research score. Is the score connected to the amount of RUs spent on research? Because it's definitely not connected to the actual researching!

- Yesterday I played one-on-one with a Vaygr opponent and used the Fortress again. I hyperspaced it to the front with 6 destroyers and they laid waste to the Vaygr. The Fortress wasn't equipped with nothing more than rapid sweeper. But it's main purpose was to provide support with Patchers and Drones - destroyers with a Fotress is a power to really recon with!

- About the resourcing. I have played with Vaygr and Hiigaran. Hiigaran are ridiculously helpless in the beginning. To get the whole resourcing on line and start building some basic defenses, it takes insanely large amount of RUs. But, the Hiigarans are tough. Vaygr Flagship is like a lumbering behemoth with no teeth whithout platform support. I confronted the enemy and I was attacked from another front. I lost my Flagship. So, the game is still balanced. Hiigaran research is what gives them the additional resourcing capabilities, nothing else.

[beghins]

OK we've encountered some problems with new Nuclear Bomb launchers on the Hiigaran Command Fortress, new Hiigaran Missile Turrets need balancing too, also other few improvements have been added, so the 6.5 available soon (2-3 days).
Thanks, Beghins.

[DragonRR]

I managed to get time to play one full game 1x Hig (me) vs 1x Hig (Hard AI). Impressed with the AI, it put up a very tough fight for a long time. The only issue I did notice was that after I fought past the AI's attacks near my Mothership the AI seemed to give up.

I did save and reload and wonder if there might be a save issue?

[Alkezo]

Yes! I'm running a Core 2 Duo 6750 2.66GHz and a 8800GT ... For a long while the game runs flawlessly, and then all of a sudden it gets ridiculously, annoyingly choppy.

I thought that dual core would be a good idea when I picked out the parts for my gaming PC. Unfortunately some motherboards don't fully support dual core CPUs and its near impossible to find out which ones do support them. There's a problem where some motherboards don't activate the cores at the same time, thus causing a time skip between the two. The skip becomes more noticeable as time progresses. There's a program that's called ICEAffinity that pretty much forces my CPU to only use one of the cores. This fixed the problem with other games but I'm still having the "choppy" performance in Complex. My reason for posting this topic is to see if its RAM related or dual core related. Complex may include many memory leaks which sucks up RAM as the game goes on. If you ever play Warcraft III memory leaks weren't fixed in the GUI triggers so only the good maps had custom code.

I have a 4200+ and 7900GT and it runs flawlessly.

Alkezo, my concern is that at the start of the game, vaygr is extremely difficult because their mining rate is so slow (its 3 per 5 seconds compared to Hiigarans 5 per 5 seconds. Thats 60% faster resourse collecting for hiigaran.)

Later in the game theres no problem and if you start with a heap of RU's theres no problem. But on Complex normal, its impossible for vaygr to defend against an early attacking hiigaran player.

Maybe flak frigates are too powerful? since it makes vaygr fighters useless.

Is it dual core? What is your RAM? I'm pretty sure its not graphics intensive as even if there are no ships on your screen. This kind of lag has a different feel to it than graphics lag or internet lag.

Ahto pretty much has this down but I went to check for the specific stats. The Vaygr Collectors have 5 Collection/sec, 250 hold, 20 dump/sec, and 200 movement. Hiigarians' have 4 collection/sec, 300 hold, 20 dump/sec, and 167 movement. It seems pretty balanced to me.

Yes flak frigates tear through fighters, but Vaygr get Heavy Missile Frigate as their starting frigate, so that is also balanced.

- I am using 4 GHz and 1.1 GB RAM, 7500 for graphic and Intel IV chip. When you play, disable Complex Help (by default, it's on). I found that after I disabled it, my game got much faster.

- And I have a problem. I changed the research stats and after that, I'm getting almost nothing on my research score. Is the score connected to the amount of RUs spent on research? Because it's definitely not connected to the actual researching!

I always have the Complex help off. You have about the same RAM as I do so it may not be a problem with RAM. Perhaps beghins could explain the problem. If beghins isn't sure then it may mean ICEAffinity doesn't work for Homeworld 2.

I'm pretty sure the Research Score is tied to the amount spent to research it since I noticed I get more Research points from techs that take longer to complete.

-I'm gonna have to say the Vaygr Command Fortress is still lacking. It's like a giant indestructible brick that has no firepower (to effectively defend against Capital ships larger than Destroyers).

-Laser Cannons don't add to the attack power of the Vaygr Battleship. I noticed this when I had one fully upgraded and another that was done building everything except the Laser Cannons and they had the same attack power.

-I found out Artillery Frigates can't use the Hyperspace Gate. I'm not sure if this was intentional or not though.

[MaxTech]

First off I want to express the greatest thanks to Beghins for his work on this Complex mod. Has anyone done sort of tech tree documentation yet? I mean has anyone written anything as a guide what is required for each technology? What each technology enables as far as units, improvements for units, and later technologies and then to show those links in an easily readable format. If not then would it be possible to create one?

[Fo®Saken]

There is none so far, but I am thinking of making one after the last of the 6 series has been released. It makes no sense of making one while there is still a lot of stuff that is being changed, added and tweaked.

[motiv-8]

I thought that dual core would be a good idea when I picked out the parts for my gaming PC. Unfortunately some motherboards don't fully support dual core CPUs and its near impossible to find out which ones do support them.

Which motherboard do you have? I'm running a Gigabyte GA-P35-DS3R and as far as I know this problem doesn't exist, or at least has not manifested.

As far as memory leaks are concerned, what you can do is open up Resource Monitor from the Task Manager (assuming you have WinVista) and leave it open during play. When you exit the game, pay attention to the section under Memory called 'Hard Faults/sec' ... This is basically how many times the Page File is accessed, which is what causes stutter and/or slowdowns. If the program has a memory leak, this number should increase steadily.

[Fasta]

I played all HomeWorld releases. Was a surprise to me there was mods around until a few weeks ago. Didnt had any ideia the source code was released.

I have now several mods installed.
And iam amazed by the number of mods..

I want to congrats you guys from complex, because amoung so many good mods around.. yours can be even better IMO.

Tanks for your hard work, and keep the good job!

[Jean=A=Luc]

Upside down decal on the Dreadnought.


Ion Frigates seam to do normal damage but their destroyer counterpart still flops.

Is it just me or are Vagyr destroyers just sooooooo much better than Hig. ones? Mines & missiles just tear apart the Hiigaran destroyers.

[Nerb]

Alkezo, my system is dual core and has 2gb memory. The stutter problem definately sounds like memory. I have my page file on a seperate hdd, dont know if that would help?

Ok, so the stats sound even. I just felt it was much harder to start as vaygr. Maybe its just me.

[Naax]

This mod made Homeworld so much more interesting, but i would really like to see some improvement for fighters and corvetes, i find them really useles right now. I usually just skip them because flak, asault and missle frigates make short work of them in no time. Also they are useles against fleets of enemies because of colisions.

[Fo®Saken]

That collision thing seems to be a real problem, also the uselessnes of smaller craft in late game. Maybe there should be a research option in late game -like engineering division level for the higs- to make the fighters and corvettes more cheap. That would make them much more usefull, especially if you are running low on recources and want to take over an enemy recource spot, but have to little recources to create a decent strike group.

[Ahto]

To Alkezo -> I found the problem. The research by Hiigarans is tied down to RUs. There's a small file (cannot name it now, though) which is like Excel formula "if this then do that". I changed Destroyer and Ion Destroyer Chassis technology value from around 2500 to 5555 leaving the time to reasearch intact (I lowered it), and I had about 40 research points immediately. The second module for Hiigarans opens when you have spent 64 000 RUs, or so I understand the file I found, and third model is something way over 100 000 RUs.

My H2 chops just a little, and also after capships are built. I suspect that the game engine "dislikes" non-native models or add-ons and this is why their integration to the game makes the whole thing lag. Maybe I'm wrong, I don't really know.

To Jean-A-Luc -> No, Vaygr destroyers aren't as tough as Hiigaran. They get three upgrades but these are applied to all capships. When Vaygr destroyers reach their highest HP count which is aabout 150 000 then Hiigaran destroyers are almost 200 000. What annoys me, personally, is that these stupid destroyers launch volley of milles AFTER they're destroyed. It's like, they go up in a spectacular boom and then, missiles rise from the dust. Arghhh...

And beghins - there are many maps on Complex that don't have AI supported. Are you planning developing them further? I've played about all maps now, and I know all the corners and hiding places, dustcoulds and where the enemy is.

But huge thanks anyway! It's a tremendous amount of work done!

[SlashesWithClaw]

No one has replied to my problem yet.

I tried to get resources from one of the huge pieces of debris floating around. I must be doing it wrong though. I thought I was supposed to capture it with a Marine/Infiltration Frigate and then scuttle it to get a debris field that I could then collect. However, when I did that I lost forty-five honor for blowing up the big debris piece. It said I had –45 in combat.

What is the correct way?

[beghins]

I tried to get resources from one of the huge pieces of debris floating around. I must be doing it wrong though. I thought I was supposed to capture it with a Marine/Infiltration Frigate and then scuttle it to get a debris field that I could then collect. However, when I did that I lost forty-five honor for blowing up the big debris piece. It said I had –45 in combat.

What is the correct way?

That's the correct way, but you've found a bug, fixed in 6.5

[Alkezo]

Which motherboard do you have? I'm running a Gigabyte GA-P35-DS3R and as far as I know this problem doesn't exist, or at least has not manifested.

I'm using an Asus A8N-SLI Premium with a AMD Athlon 64x2 Dual Core Processor 3800+.

This mod made Homeworld so much more interesting, but i would really like to see some improvement for fighters and corvetes, i find them really useles right now. I usually just skip them because flak, asault and missle frigates make short work of them in no time. Also they are useles against fleets of enemies because of colisions.

Fighters and Corvettes have various uses but just sending them off to attack a ship that was design to destroy those types of ships isn't the best idea. Every ship has their special taste even beyond Fighters/Corvettes/Frigates... etc. You just need to counter with which ship. The only problem that does exist is the collision between ships and thats something that isn't supposed to happen. One of the reasons I hated PDS was the fact that a few bombers could take out my Battlecruiser. Realistic, yes. Balanced, no. Why fighter's do become pretty much useless once you get Battlecruisers, you can still use them to destroy subsystems while the enemy focuses their fire on your larger ships. Destroying the engine subsystem on a Vortex would utterly hinder it. Speaking of smaller ships, I used to use Multilance/Khopesh Corvettes to destroy Frigates/Destroyers but now they seem to do less damage.

And beghins - there are many maps on Complex that don't have AI supported. Are you planning developing them further? I've played about all maps now, and I know all the corners and hiding places, dustcoulds and where the enemy is.

The maps that aren't A.I. supported are ones that have nebulae included in them. Unless beghins can make a script where the A.I. avoids the nebula clouds then they will never be A.I. supported. I do believe that one of the maps have just one line of nebula clouds going down the middle of the map so the A.I. would be pretty dumb.

[motiv-8]

I'm using an Asus A8N-SLI Premium with a AMD Athlon 64x2 Dual Core Processor 3800+.

There's a patch that AMD released to address issues with dual-core, I'm not exactly sure where to find it other than the AMD website, you could try googling it..

[Alkezo]

There's a patch that AMD released to address issues with dual-core, I'm not exactly sure where to find it other than the AMD website, you could try googling it..

Oh god, that patch pissed me off so much. I tried it and it just perpetually restarted my PC. I had to go through so much trouble to get through that.

[Nerb]

i think the only problem with fighters/corvets is the number of crew they require. Corvets have just as many crew as frigates. I had a swarm of corvets take out a juggernaught in seconds last night.... is the juggernaught less HP in 6.4?

[motiv-8]

Oh god, that patch pissed me off so much. I tried it and it just perpetually restarted my PC. I had to go through so much trouble to get through that.

Wow, sorry bro ... I wish I could be of more help. Have you talked to Asus about the problem?

[shadowman14]

hello all,
i have vista and im trying to run this mod,
however,
every time i run the mod i get a DEP error,
pls advise

[motiv-8]

Are you running the program as an Administrator?

[shadowman14]

yes, and after it suggesting that i turn off dep for that program, it will not let me,
also i have tried backward compatability settings

ok well fixed that,
but it really dislikes my nvida gforce 8600 gt graphics card..

any suggestions?

[Alkezo]

but it really dislikes my nvida gforce 8600 gt graphics card..

The 8000 series are known for a lot of problems especially with Vista.

[shadowman14]

=/ that really sucks,
i love hw2 so much,
i wonder y there is such a problem with new technology and this game

[Ahto]

Naax -> corvettes are superb against resourcing operations. I usually have 5 squadrons of Pulsar Corvettes and Gunship Corvettes (while playing Hiigaran, of course) and send them randomly out to harass AI's resourcing operations. Carrier is too weak to withstand good beating and while it awaits support from larger ships from afar, it'll be dead. And then I just take off to any carrier ship for repairs. Good tactics and earns you honour points much faster, too!

I have a problem - the game freezes frequently, with different maps and different amount of players. I've noticed that when I scroll with my cursor, it freezes when reaches "new units", like yesterday I had. The AI sent a Battleship (Vaygr) against me, I captured it and after I looked what was going on with my MS, and then scrolled back to the Battleship (it needed repairs), the game froze. Is this a bug?

[Naax]

Alkezo -> The problem is that everything is good against them, all u need is few Asault/higarian missle frigates with your fleet and they are gone. At least the missles from Capital ships and Heavy missle ftigates should be redesigned to not be able to hit fighters and corvetes. Its strange that those big ass missles used to take down frigates/capital ships have the speed and manoevrability to hit such small ships.

Atho -> I doubth that 5 types of fighters and 5 types of corvetes were designed to harass enemy resourcing operations.

There could be a high level tech upgrade for fighters/corvetes called tough hull that reduces damage from expolsions.

[Ahto]

Naax -> It is possible! I have done it and it works. Though yes, before the carrier explodes, it's wide to flee because the fireball can eat up all these squadrons!

[Fafnir]

I've got the same sort of freezing problem as Ahto, though I haven't noticed that it happens when I do anything in particular.

As great as 6.x is, it seems horribly unstable. I'm rarely able to run a game without at least one random crash. Anyone else having this problem? I never had any problems with the 5.5 release.

Anyone got any ideas on how to mitigate these instabilities?

[Fo®Saken]

These problems are not related to the game but to your pc. I have a computer that is a few years old and almost exactly meets the recommended systen specs. I have never had any crashes with complex, even with stuff that beghins confirms as crashes.

[Fafnir]

Hm. I've got a brand-new machine.. I suppose I'll fool around with the drivers and such, then.

[Jean=A=Luc]

Are platforms supposed to be able to move more than once?

[Fo®Saken]

Not really in the original... But they can do that in complex.

[Elred]

No, and I've noticed it too: Hiigarans platforms can move again and again, it's easier to create a great wall to destroy every enemy fleet

But I think it should be fixed Or instead, make ALL platforms movable, because massives turrets (and maybe Vaygr turrets) can't move more than one time.

[Fasta]

Hm. I've got a brand-new machine.. I suppose I'll fool around with the drivers and such, then.

I have to turn off my AntiVirus and also stop punkbuster processes otherwise i have CTD.

[Fafnir]

I'll give that a shot, Fasta, thanks. I did an uninstall and reinstall, updated my card drivers, my BIOS, everything.. still got a random crash.

[Jmendes]

Im on 6.4 and I´ve just played as Vaygr vs 1 AI Higaran, honour sensitivity set to high, starting honour points as 15, and got up to Commander level (80) but my crew/officers limit never got past the initial 175/10... the recruit crew/officers upgrade did NOT show up in research. It worked just fine in 6.1, is this a bug?

[Fo®Saken]

That is really interesting. It might be a bug of some sort, but it is more likely that someting in the research list for these settings is just missing. @Elred - I do not think that massive turrets should be so mobile, they are to powerfull for that. Since there is no crew needed for them, players could just mass then and own every cap ship a strike group encounters. By the way, why do they lack a crew? Other platforms need crew to. Also, crew cell go to command fortresses too if I remember correctly from my last match. There is no point for them going to the cf if it is unable to produce anyting that needs a crew.