Eldar without Early Seer Council [CounterPoint View ?]

[Baron_Badger]

We all aware considering the numerous posts and heated debate the eissues regarding the SC. Plenty of replays have been made to back this point.

However it would be usefull if we also played a game or two where people did not build the sc until mid game (i.e simulate them available at a later tech level) or purposely build a weak sc (say 3 or 4 to model a nerf in their abilities).

Looking at the replays its hard to see how Eldar would of won without them thus giving many people the impression that without them eldar are in trouble.

We must ensure that while rightly pointing out the problem with sc, we also show the result for eldar on them not being available early game.

I would like to see recordings of games players without the sc being used , used later or more weakly (especially between between high ranked playeres) , so we can have a real feel of they effect should they modified.

Dont get me wrong i agree with the sc problem but showing eldar can hold their own without it is just as important.

On a personal note i would also be interested to see how the top ranked win against a similar level of player without them.

[Trox]

Let sc as it is but nerf entangle duration on heroes

[Sps]

We all aware considering the numerous posts and heated debate the eissues regarding the SC. Plenty of replays have been made to back this point.

However it would be usefull if we also played a game or two where people did not build the sc until mid game (i.e simulate what is being asked to be done with the sc) or purposely built a weak sc (say 3 or 4 to model a nerf in their abilities.

Looking at the replays its hard to see how Eldar would of won without them thus giving people the impression that without them eldar are in trouble.

We must ensure that while rightly pointing out the problem with sc, we must also show the result for eldar on them not being available early game.

I would like to see recordings of games players without the sc being used , used later ormore weakly (especially between between high ranked playeres) , so we can have a real feel of they effect should they modified.

Dont get me wrong i agree with the sc problem but showing eldar can hold their own without it is just as important.

On a personal note i would also be interested to see how the top ranked win against a similar level of player without them.

I didn't record anything up until the win - but even vs insane comp - if council is late in game - eldar is dead.

All aspect combinations i tried have failed - banshees+reapers, reapers+rangers, grav plats, dcannons - everything - fc is just that powerfull and even if it doesn't outright kill a few aspect squads - a few hammer swings and its buye bye eldar morale..

Once i built a council to support those aspects - tide has turned and i battled the spamfest effectively to bl tech and a win.

And skilled players rushing me online are much smarter if not any less spammy with their marines. Any skilled game I play I am forced to rush council out and support it with reapers or whatever enemy calls for.

[Baron_Badger]

So in your opinion the SC is fine, but entangle should be fixed.
So do you think therefore altering sc would leave eldar at a disadvantage. Just curios.

[PS2MAN]

wait till til this weekend and i'll post a replay of my Eldar

Call me insanse but i dont use Seer countcill at all. Hell, i mainly mass gaurdians and Warp spiders and a few lancebeams.....

But thats because of My VERY anoying strat. The only problem i have ATM is other eldars due to there bonsingers escaping.

[Sps]

wait till til this weekend and i'll post a replay of my Eldar

Call me insanse but i dont use Seer countcill at all. Hell, i mainly mass gaurdians and Warp spiders and a few lancebeams.....

But thats because of My VERY anoying strat. The only problem i have ATM is other eldars due to there bonsingers escaping.

as i said - try anything but seers vs insane SM comp - and then take into account skilled players are BETTER.

[PS2MAN]

IMO seercountcill is easily countered

However

if you have nothing to counter it then your screwed, same applies with any unit, i have killed people just using gaurdians at one point, only using lancebeams to kill some buildings and that was it.

[Sps]

PS2 man problem people have is what council can do when all your units are unable to move - especially when your hero falls in seconds

entangle

[Fable]

Personally I don't think entangle is the problem at all. I don't build a seer council until after I've done mobilize for war research, it's just the way I've done it since beta 1.4. I managed a solid 3 stars then, and do ok online now. I think if the seer council were available a little later then things are ok IF you have an anti rush build. Entangle is necessary for Eldar to deal with ANY commander at all early game. People don't seem to realize, or are just willing to ignore how lacking the farseer is compared to other commanders early game. I can pit a farseer up against a FC with 1 upgraded listening post in shooting range and three guardian squads on overwatch firing at him without warlocks and after giving the FC a slight migrane with mind war the FC will invariably walk away brushing dust off his shoulder as he moves in to single handedly decimate my base until the spammed marine units arrive to help him get it all done quicker after he effortlessly decimated my force.

[HalberdBlue]

Argg, I had a nice long reply, then the board broke and it got lost (and I forgot to copy the post to clipboard).

Anyways, I think Seer Council needs to be moved further up the tech tree, and aspect warriors need to be made better. I played a game earlier where basically it was Sluggas vs. Banshees and the sluggas won, which isn't right IMO. I use Wartrakks but they never took part in battle other than harassment until I already had the game won IMO. I made many huge mistakes in the game but still won (like every time I teched to a new unit I had forgotten to build a WAAAGH! banner to get the population up so that I could build it). He never makes a Seer Council. This guy wasn't crap either, if you look at his record he has about 85% wins, and will be on the top 100 soon.

Here is the replay (change .jpg to .zip, I used imageshack to upload it because its convienient). It appears as "i am copycat" ingame (I copied the wartrakk harassment from the STFN vs. CorpsE replay on the replay forum)

http://img85.exs.cx/img85/4782/sluggasvsbanshees.jpg

On a side note, Baron_Badger, I played vs. you a few times in beta... Incase you don't remember me, I abused mine fields like a mofo and we did some testing on how long it takes to kill a Big Mek/Warboss/etc. It was fun, we should play again sometime

[hybris]

Mmm... Agree.
If Seer Council gets nerfed, the other Eldar units needs a boost. As it is now, the SC are just a reason not to balance the rest of the Eldar units correctly.

[Baron_Badger]

Halberd m8, of course i remember you. Still licking my wounds from those encounters. Im online quite a bit so yeah, give me a shout next time you see me.

Its interesting too see im not the only one who feels that th sc seems too have been put in so eldar can handle early game. I agree that if sc is moved up the tech tree then something needs to be done to help eldar early game when standing toe to toe with the other races, particularly on the hero front.

[Navaros]

Seer Council needs a major nerfing both in terms of damage and Entangle

[n0z3k1ll3r]

The abilities of those damned Gates (teleporting units and buildings around the map is rather horrible) and the ability of almost all their vehicles to effectively use jump packs, and in one case take a squad with them, are easily as good as a Seer Council when used properly and vastly more satisfying to win with. Also people call you "OMFGLAMERN00BLOLWTF" a lot less

[project2501]

Hello all,

personally, the seer council is the lynch pin to my army at the moment. I can agree that the burly decked out sc can whup a lot of ass, but against more tenacious players, I rarely have the chance to let it sit around and gather power. the first few games aside, I'm finding a lot of challenges just staying alive against quite a few opponents.

As far as I'm concerned the council is fine, as most of the other races have two hero types that can be put on the table at the same time. The council can't be everywhere at once.

my two cents, I guess...

[EffeKt]

This is my strat I use and I have not lost with it yet in 1on1 (not gloating, I am just saying try it :P). To be honest I have never used that Seer Council\farseer strat, but for some reason what I do it even counters Eldar who use that strat. I simply just make three guardian squads with grenades, and a farseer with the banchee squad. Then later on I get a Seer Council.

[Sanguinius_nz]

Very rarely use the seer council, I find the req more usefull fo building up a couple more guardian squads. I will generally have a farseer and 3 maxed guardians squads running around which is quite capable of taking down a fc and marine squad with some dancing, hell Ive taken down a fc with 2 guardian squads before it seer council is not the be all and end all.

[KumoBlade]

hello, i just started playing. I went to check this out. I'm ALL for balance, and i wanted to see if this is true. I researched Entangle, Got Seer Council, Farseer, etc.. Met all prequesites, but my Seer council doesn't get Entangle. It gets embolden, but not entangle. Wierd.

PS. My Regular Warlocks do Get Entangle.