Here's your imbalance

[Ir0nClad]

Map: Outer Reaches
Players: Ir0nClad vs I forgot and I dont care to look :P
Type: 1v1
Winning Conditions: Default
Winning Condition Triggered: Got my butt handed to me
Duration: 8 minutes or so.
Description of Battle: Pretty much a rape...

I don't plan on whining. It just seems a bit lopsided is all. Farseer with 3 abilities vs the sm FCs zero? The eldar scouts do more melee damage and range damage than sm scouts? The SC do more melee and range damage than both assault marines as well as regular marines?

Doesn't get any clearer to me... but then again, what do I know? :X

I've read the posts and watched some eldar vs sm replays, but I don't see anything that helps really. Is it imbalanced or are we missing something?

Any help is appreciated. Eldar owns me.

[Fat007]

I've read the posts and watched some eldar vs sm replays, but I don't see anything that helps really. Is it imbalanced or are we missing something?

Any help is appreciated. Eldar owns me.

if your missing something them i am too..

Yeah someone equal skill lvlv using SC will always have an edge over our SM's.

even if the SC breaks they still are very dangerous. less in a squad i think should do it, 10+ SC is a bit much

[Trox]

Nice colors btw Ironclad well it s been said countless times now that rush is next to unstoppable and especially for sm an csm maybe try and get a dread up somehow ... or just wait for next patch ^^

[Speakeasy]

Actually SM scouts pick off light infantry in one shot while rangers just do morale damage, also rangers cost 195 req while scout squads cost 90, BIG difference.

Farseer has far less HPs and damage than FC.
Psychic storm really only hurts light infantry, which against you would ONLY be scouts.
Mind war does like 5-10% of FC's HPs, hardly imbalanced.
Guide makes a squad more accurate, big deal.

The Seer Council thing, I'm a bit sick of people crying about it, point is, they have 600 morale and it drops fast, quit crying and BREAK THEM, once broken they do jack for damage and are basically just meat shields.

[Fat007]

quit crying and BREAK THEM, once broken they do jack for damage and are basically just meat shields.

actually when you break them they get FoF for free =-)
and meat shields still soak up alot of dmg, plus the FS can still use spells. when you get 16 of them things they do own, only way to stop them is haress but a smart eldar will just nail your base and go build another one, not walk all the way back.

[Fenris-X2]

Speakeasy, seriously stfu and stop hanging on to your imbalance seers. It's blatently overpowered. Look, I had a game where Landwehr was firing about 12 HB's at my council, I had 10 council members with broken morale killing off a scout squad and servitor. Guess how many I lost before I pulled them out? ZERO.

[silverTalons]

Fenris-X2 You need to relax dude. I think you need to understand there the only real unit that is very resilliant. The eldar have very fragile units but don't forget there units specilise in speciffic fields. seer council happenes to be they are resilliant. You'll find the far seer the weakest FC in melee but her speciffic field is magic. Understand this. There generally very fragile appart from that 1 unit.

[Fat007]

Fenris-X2 You need to relax dude. I think you need to understand there the only real unit that is very resilliant. The eldar have very fragile units but don't forget there units specilise in speciffic fields. seer council happenes to be they are resilliant. You'll find the far seer the weakest FC in melee but her speciffic field is magic. Understand this. There generally very fragile appart from that 1 unit.

hmmmm Fenris is one of the best eldar players out there, along with STFN and Blur, so i think he know whats hes going on about

[MadJackMcJack]

Fenris-X2 You need to relax dude. I think you need to understand there the only real unit that is very resilliant. The eldar have very fragile units but don't forget there units specilise in speciffic fields. seer council happenes to be they are resilliant. You'll find the far seer the weakest FC in melee but her speciffic field is magic. Understand this. There generally very fragile appart from that 1 unit.

And they more than make up for it! I had a game as Orkz against a mate using Eldar. He assaulted my base with a huge army, and I fought back, wiping them all out with the help of my WAAAGH tower's firepower. Except the Seers. After all the other Eldar were dead, my remaining Orkz (and there were a lot left. I love overwatch ) turned on them. It took them 2 minutes to kill them! I mean, Boyz, Kanz, Rokkitz. Even Tiddles took time to stomp them. Which gave my mate time to rebuild damnit!

[strategery]

Honestly everytime I see an eldar player pull out the "we need the council to win" argument I laugh.. it more than proves the point. Eldar have some of the best infantry killing ranged weapons out there. Let alone a squad of gods.. The seer council is blatantly overpowered even when broken. i mean come on, 2 tac squads with HBs, 3 2man scoutsquads with snipers, and an FC couldn't bring those f***ers down. They reinforce too quickly, run faster than anything else out there, and deal incredible melee damage. Having them that powerful that early in the game alongside a FS is like having 2 heros, if not more given how difficult it is to bring them down.

[fgStratus]

Well, because of the stand ground bug right now, marines can actually beat all but the fastest Seer Council rushers.

2 squads of scouts w/ flamers will break the Seer Council instantly. And if anything gets entangled (like the FC), the SM player can just group the rest of his units around it so it ends up participating in the battle anyway. And since units on Stand Ground can't be forced into melee, the SM player will have bolters, heavy bolters, and flamers constantly raining down on the Eldar, which means instantly dead guardians and instantly broken Seer Council.

Of course, this isn't to say the Seer Council is balanced- it isn't. But because of a bug right now, the SM player actually can beat most Eldar SC rushes.

[Kasrkin]

agreed. The SC is overpowered IMO. i honestly dont know why it was not solved in the beta :S same to the F2 bug/type thingy.

i think makeing them light infantry might help...or makeing them tier 2.

Double Post

fgStratus, The Stand ground bug will most probably be fixed...and then we will go back to overpowered SC again

[First And Only]

But then the question is, would us SM players be willing to abuse the bug? Using an overpowered unit is one thing, but abusing the stand ground bug is akin to abusing the chaos frag grenade bug that was in the beta (for those of you who don't know, the bug was that whenever chaos marines used frag grens on a unit, that unit could never move again).

It IS cheating after all.

I would love to play SM again, but I'm personally not willing to abuse that bug. It really ruins the dynamics of the game, for example orks never win. I dunno, I might make use of it against SC, but I'm not really wanting to because it means I only won because I cheated, although it is very difficult to win without doing so.

[Groov]

What is the stand ground bug?

[XavionDeosXIV]

The council isn't overpowered, its bugged plain and simple. Once conceal is researched they take next-to-no damage from anything ranged. That and, when broken, they still pwn. I have a real hard time believing that the council as it currently exists was what Relic intended. The main imbalance since the beta is still in the game. Oh well, i guess well have to be on the honor system till its patched. if there is such a thing :/

Double Post

The Stand Ground bug, for those not familiar, is when units set to stand ground stance won't go into CC even if engaged in CC. theyll just keep shooting, negating the usefulness of CC units tieing up ranged units. Relic knows about it and will address it.

[n0z3k1ll3r]

Stand ground and Ranged stance means you can used ranged weapons in CC.

Anyway I personally as a Marine player don't find SC too bad, but... who's up for having them swapped for Wraithguard? Fits better with the fluff (only Ulthwe should have Seer Council) and they could be still nice and resilient, just also very goddamn slow. Nice guns too. How bout it?

[First And Only]

Even without conceal they are incredibly durable. Take the time to lab it sometime and watch how basic infantry take ages to down a single member.

[Raging Idiot]

Well I usually agree with you But on this one I must say I do not.

Conceal changes the Seer Council immensely and comparing the damage that a Basic, by that I assume you mean Guardians, Cultists etc, does to a Heavy infantry unit is not very accurate. Also note that only the Reaper comes out ready to gun down Heavy infantry without some sort of tweak.

[Fat007]

Well, because of the stand ground bug right now, marines can actually beat all but the fastest Seer Council rushers.

2 squads of scouts w/ flamers will break the Seer Council instantly. And if anything gets entangled (like the FC), the SM player can just group the rest of his units around it so it ends up participating in the battle anyway. And since units on Stand Ground can't be forced into melee, the SM player will have bolters, heavy bolters, and flamers constantly raining down on the Eldar, which means instantly dead guardians and instantly broken Seer Council.

Of course, this isn't to say the Seer Council is balanced- it isn't. But because of a bug right now, the SM player actually can beat most Eldar SC rushes.

But the SC is a broken eldar unit, the stand ground bug is a game wide bug that is going to be fixed. Just remeber how in war3 when people abused the tome bug they could be reported and reset. But the bug isnt that huge of an abuse but it still is. i guess if you want to win use it but then your reputation will suffer and you will be know as an abuse/cheater

[SubZero]

The Tabletop game has Warlocks and Farseers (many of each). They all have invulnerable saves also.

The Eldar truly suck in CC, and have no units apart from the Avatar than can 'tank' (absorb firepower).
The Seer Council, when fully upgraded at tier3 serves this purpose.

Marines get LandRaider- excellent for absorbing damage ; Terminators - the killers ; Orb Strike - Mass destruction (stronger by far than Eldritch Storm) FC and Librarian.
Orks get Squiggoth - can kill anything in Melee ; Orks get 2 other HC units
Chaos get 2 HC units, Bloodthirster and some exceptional Obliterators.

Eldar get 1 Farseer, 1 Avatar.
You see, the Seer Council makes up for the inadequecies of the Eldar forces in general. You get only 1 Council, it takes A LONG TIME to build it up to:
Tier 3 ; Fortune; Embolden; Conceal; Warlock Upgrade; 15 Members ; Farseer, Eldritch Storm ; Farseer Upgrade1; Farseer Upgrade 2; 15 Witch Blades.
By the time you have the Council mentioned above, the enemy will guaranteeably have at least 2 of the units mentioned above Orks (Squig, Warboss, Mek) Chaos (BloodT, Obliterator, Lord, Sorceror) Marines(FC, Lib, LandRaider, Terminators).

Seer Council is perfect as it is, it dies easily to the INTELLIGENT enemy, and it walks all over the unprepared silly enemy.

[strategery]

I personally as a SM player have never touched the stand ground bug. I agree that it ruins the dynamic of the game and gives an unfair advantage to those who use it.

That still doesn't change the base fact that the Eldar Seer Council are imbalanced and are in need of some tweaking.

[Darkweaver2]

I like the stand ground bug... it lures newbs using it into thinking that their SM can now magically stand up to PSM in CC

[fgStratus]

I assume that the next patch which comes out will address both the stand ground bug and the SC/entangle rush.

Until then, I was suggesting a way to beat the SC rush. I never said it was balanced, as some of you seem to imply.

[tenth]

I don`t get why people start talking about tier3 when someone tries to address the power of the sc. It is tier1 and actually ends the game in tier1.

My thoughts about the Seercouncil: It is a very tough unit, maybe the best unit in the game but it is not unbeatable. That is if the council is low in size. But since u can get like 14 (?) of them the council will never die.
And pls don`t tell me that they are sooooo expensive. They are 80/10 or something, right? PSMs, for example, are 75/25 and are absolutly not equal to the council. They dish out more HtH dmg but they have a squad size of 10, a moral of 300 and no Shooting ability (unupgraded). And they take way more dmg and reinforce slower.

And entangle ownes a psm squad easy.

But well, I have won some games vs the council but only if I manage to attack the eldar player as long as the sc is small in size. But a good eldar player will focus on getting a big council asap.....

So yes, the council needs to be addressed. At least lower the squad size, increase reinforce time or the like.

And Eldar can win even without the sc.

[SubZero]

For the full 'uber' Council you need to use 3855 req, 1600 power, 20-27min on High Resource rate.
For:
Conceal
Fortune
Embolden
Eldritch Storm
15 Seers
15 WitchBlades
2 Farseer Upgrades
2 Warlock Upgrades
1 Farseer

Out of this, 15minutes necessary upgrade time once bought, no matter how many times they die and are re-purchased(15members, 15 blades). On purchase the Council are armed with a standard sword, not a power sword or witchblade like the Guardian Warlocks.

1 squad of Possessed Marines killed 3 squads of Guardians who used entangle on them... the marines were regenerating faster than my guardians could kill... do i cry 'nerf' like little children? NO, i infact make some Anti-Heavy Infantry weapons (!)

Amazingly enough, Anti-Heavy Infantry Weapons rip Seer Council to pieces. We are talking Plasma Weapons and Assault cannons here.

So next time, think before whining.

[Revenovski]

Ground Zero, sing it brother! I am sooooo over the SC bashing, it IS balanced, they are tough to fend off in the begining but do it for enough minutes and you'll out-tech eldar at the mind to higher end, IF you know what you're doing.

Even Avatar with all its benefits as an uber unit is glass jawed and can be reduce to ruble by rockets (be they SM, C or O).

[surfguru]

Yeah I have played a lot of RTS games dating back to Warcraft, that looks like an imbalance to me ... if exploited etc etc ... needs a little tweak to resolve.

Great use of assault squad by the way *adds to memory bank*

[XavionDeosXIV]

GroundZero u r correct. Unfortunately, u have missed the point.

The point is that, in the early game (with conceal) the council is too resilient against range attacks. U can get an unreinforced council out inside 4 min with a good practiced build order, and have conceal shortly thereafter if not at the same time. By then, the only anti-infantry weapons a SM/Chaos player can have are heavy bolters, and even then theyll probably only have 3 tac squads, 4 max, and theyre probably not gonna be fully reinforced. Sure flamers will break the SC, but they don't lose too much power even when broken. Because of the stacking conceal bug, the council can just shrug off their bolter fire for them to get into cc, where theyll easly pwn SM/CSM. Thats the SC rush that people are getting irritated about.

I wholesale agree with your point that if u allow someone to sic a fully reinforced and upgraded council on ya u deserve it and should have a counter, cause by then youll have plasma guns and assualt cannons and such. Hell, at first, I was flaming ppl for making this argument...till i got hit with it as chaos and then looked at some replays that clearly illustrate this. When the rush is available, any semi-skilled player can beat any other side with ease. Its only a fair match between 2 eldar players.

Watch the Stompey v. Mystic replay (aptly named stompy is a newb). The only reason that stompey didn't win the match is because, during the first real fighting, he just stood there and let the backup CSM squads blast him with impunity (b/c hes a noob and expected Mystic to fold...lol). He failed to properly mirco. Also look at the SFTN v Fenris eldar replays. Whoever mircos their council better won. Period.

Those who are whining about the full council suck and are crying nerf like little children, no doubt. But the council w/ conceal is bugged, and the early game council rushes prove it. Q.E.D.

[Sandanjuu]

And comparing guardians to marine squads is just stupid. The Eldar guardians are basically the equivallent of marine scouts. That's like saying marine scouts should be able to kill all those things.

And have you TRIED plasma against Eldar recently? Nearly all their infantry is "Infantry", not "Heavy Infantry"- what this means is, you can either dedicate a substantial amount of your tactical squads to plasma in some vain attempt to stop the seer council (which wont work anyways since Conceal reduces THAT damage to crap too) and then get torn apart by dark reapers, or you can get bolters and get torn apart by seer council!

Choose your death! woohoo!

[Deadeye]

Plasma isnt available in time, but yes it is a nice Eldar counter.

[strategery]

All you eldar guys(like ground zero) saying use plasma use plasma, as usual, have no idea what YOU are talking about. As mentioned before we aren't complaining about a tier 2 imbalance. We're complaining about a TIER 1 IMBALANCE. Heavy bolters, flamers, and snipers(as an SM player anyway) are our only options. Either way we're screwed. you can break the SC morale all day but it won't do enough to stop them when they have conceal. And any eldar player thats halfway decent at this game can have conceal around the same time their SC comes out. THIS IS THE PROBLEM! They come out godly at tier 1, and coincidentally end the game at tier 1.. One squad that can decimate anything in it's path that early in the game is, what anyone who's ever played an RTS game before calls it, an imbalance. There is no hard counter to the council early in the game, you can't defend against it because of their power. You can't run from it due to their speed. And you can't expect break to work, because their morale has next to nil effect on their overall power. It just hardly ever works...

[XavionDeosXIV]

Ok strategery...I wouldn't go THAT far, but it is unbalanced nonetheless. And, for the last time ppl, its a BUG! This is not something intended by Relic. The warlocks aren't nearly as resilent at range, and the SC is essentally be a squad of slightly-more-powerful-warlocks. This, as weve said MANY TIMES is a bug thats been around since the beta. Once this is fixed in the first REAL patch, the balance issues in this game will be pretty much solved.

[First And Only]

There seems to be some misudnerstanding, by 'basic ifnantry' I meant MARINES. Sorry I should have eben more clear.

Try labbing an SC squad without conceal (set them on cease fire) and have a fresh SM/CSM squad shoot at them, see how long it takes to kill 1 of them. You can reifnorce the marines if you want, doesn't speed up the process by much at all.

Now after seeing that, try to imagine a scenario where you would have that much time to shoot at a SC standing still. We know such a case doesn't exist (except among the most newbie of Eldar players) and we know that the SC spends half the time in CC, where it gets extra protection vs ranged.

[strategery]

Sorry to anyone who took any offense to my above post. But I'm just so damn sick of hearing all these eldar players claiming plasma is the answer, without realizing we're not talking about tier 2 weapons and upgrades..... So I'm sorry if you took offense too it. But it's really drawing on my nerves here.. There is an obvious imbalance/bug and people are actually DEFENDING it...

To play devils advocate here. Lets turn it around. Say instead of eldar having the tier 1 domination units. Lets say space marine's now get 2 force commanders for the price of 1 at the same time. Imagine the ensuing insanity as everyone points out how glaring of an imbalance that is, due to how much it can trash anything in it's way. And reinforce any dead force commanders faster than you can kill them.. Granted this is a little extreme of an example, but wouldn't you eldar players who have no counter to this squad want it fixed for the sake of balance? Because thats what the rest of us non-eldar players are asking for here.

And please don't bring up that "we wouldn't win any games if you change the SC" bs.. please.. The eldars racial identiy(since before the game was even released) has been focused on ranged combat, with quick strikes and stealth approaches.. Adapt to your races racial identity.. Giving them a godly squad of close combat specialists at tier 1, that no race has a hard counter for if rushed by this squad, not only makes them adept at quick hit and run strikes, but now gives them frontline troops that nothing can touch until tier 2. Even then if your lucky enough to make it to tier 2, you've spent most of your requesition trying to reinforce squads to hold back that damn council.

The point is, SC is bugged, imbalanced, flawed, whatever. Their too powerful of a unit to have at tier 1 alongside the commander unit, plats, and DRs. Every other race only gets 1 good "hero" unit.. Except for the eldar who get 1 hero unit and a SQUAD of hero units.... We're not asking for them to be removed from the game, or made useless. We're asking, for the sake of balance, they be toned down so the other races can actually stand a fighting chance.

[Notwist]

Your point with the tier1 counter is right. But if you talk about, turning it around, what if the eldars don´t have the SC. I don´t believe, that guardians could hold marines, even because they are heavy infantry. What counter does an eldar have against tier1 heavy infantry? Farseer is to weak on it´s own, even with guardians. Only SC I think. I know, you don´t want to get SC out of the game, but you´ll see, how delicate it is, to balance SC.

[SubZero]

Banshees need to be tougher, thats the first point.

About the 2xFC, use entangle on them and gun them down/Mindwar.

I am a good Eldar player, not the best, but not crap either. I don't know other armies as well as Eldar, but when i played against Eldar as Chaos and Marines i managed to destroy a SC and Farseer very early in the game. I didn't try Orks.

What all this 'problem' stems down to :

1 - Eldar players requiring a tough unit

2 - Non-Eldar players being shortsighted in game terms - Focus on what having a Seer Council actually means.

Explained :
1 - Eldar need a tanking unit early in the game which can hold off against most opponents (it cannot hold off against Heroes)

2 - The Eldar in the first few minutes could in essence, invest all of their REQ and POWER into the council (6 members, farseer, conceal, fortune), this means no guardians will be upgraded, no Entangle, and a very bad base. This means you occupy the Council with one squad, and send the rest at their undeveloped undefended base.

The only decent power against marines is Mindwarring Heroes and broken squads. Along with Eldritch Storming Marine Vehicles and bases.

Compare these virtual one-use powers against the Seer Council being peppered from several squads using Frag Grenades.

Regarding Conceal/Fortune spell...
Once the Farseer (if researched Fortune) dies, the Seer Council dies alot faster and easier. In practice, the Council members are actually stronger than the Farseer.

[Fenris-X2]

I just want to make this point, only a newb researches fortune when council rushing. Its useless, conceal is all you need.

[SubZero]

Without Fortune the SC are as weak as the Farseer. With Fortune the Seer Council are stronger than the Farseer.

[Fenris-X2]

waste of $, fortune increases armor, seers already have practical imunity to range and in melee the armor helps only a tiny bit because most of the time enemy melee is blown away by psyhic attacks from seers and farseer.

[SubZero]

Today, i had a 7 Strong Seer Council, researched Conceal and Fortune, and stuck a farseer in there. Had 3 Guardian squads (complete) guardian the other flank.

This flank with the Guardians was rushed by BigMek and 4 squads of Shoota Boyz and all were destroyed by the Guardians because of mainly Entanglement.

On the other flank i was rushed by 3 Chaos Marine Squads of 6+ members each. The council were gunned down faster than they could reinforce and they only killed about 7 marines in melee, and 3 with Mindwar.

[Witch Blade]

Sorry to hear the Seer Council got punked out but wheres the replay plz?

[Bakah]

About the Stand Ground bug: I think i may be one of the only ranked eldar players to not get council. Its is overpowering, i can see that, and i dont know why anyone denies it, and i dont want to have to abuse a unit to win. However, almost every sm and csm player i play uses the stand ground bug, which essentially ruins banshees and can(and sometimes does..) cost me the game. People who use this bug to win, council or no, should be ashamed. Dont use it, your not a better player for it.

On topic: Council is a bit of a joke atm. Any eldar player who says eldar have no chance without them is sadly mistaken, and i assume has only ever used councils. However, they are almost certainly needed mid/late game as a damage soak, as banshees simply crumble in volumes of firepower late game(not to mention stand ground bug abuse..), and they do replace the 2nd hero in thier own (expensive) way. But i dont see any reason why they should be allowed to survive 4 squads of marines or whatever shooting at them (a 500 health unit fyi) without loss for 10 minutes. Despite being an eldar player, i do hope thier ranged resistance gets a massive nerf.

[Sandanjuu]

Well, atleast GroundZero just proved to me he has no idea what he's talking about. I demonstrated today to a (generally) very good SM player how strong seer council is, after I was accused of "making it up". I didn't research anything but SC, conceal and entangle.

A seer council of 10 + FC, beat a Force Commander, and 6 marine squads being microed very well. All of them.

Whats really funny? I SUCK at the seer council rush. I didn't even win by destroying his base, even though I could have. I used two guardian squads to grab the critical points while he was spending all his time trying to stay alive fighting the seer council. He had no resources from having to dump so much money into reinforcing all his marine squads to slow down my seer council.

I realize, very well, that Relic has an in-house balance staff. But I have to ask myself how they let something like this slip? The time it takes for Marines to get plasma gives Eldar more then enough time to rush and destry. If the marine player gets more troops instead of fast teching to plasma, they get destroyed anyways because regular weapons can't do a thing to council.

All I want, is for seer council to have the same rules applied to it as any other squad. If its broken, it should be combat ineffective. This would give atleast ONE option for strategy vs an Eldar player, keeping anti morale weapons around. As it stands now, a broken council of under 8 can be massacred, but as soon as it gets to 10-12+, the conceal stacking 'bug' allows it to be nearly invincible, even while broken.

[SubZero]

Do you think a fair compromise would be ...
Ranged defense of Conceal is lowered ; Banshees toughened ; Seer Council created with Witchblades (once upgrades researched) ; Conceal despite being nerfed, actually has a projection radius around each warlock/SC.

[Fenris-X2]

agreed with all except the free witchblades after upgrade

lower range resistance, give banshees some kind of range resistance ( very slight, since they are melee specialists i don't want to see another weaker version of the council which can be massed ) and make rangers less of a joke. At the moment rangers are without a doubt the most useless unit in the game.

[SubZero]

Rangers arent a joke!!!!

I just so -love- to use 3 squads of them versus a few scouts and watch the scouts morale drop... but not the scouts.... :P

[Kasrkin]

190 req arnt they? pffft

[Bakah]

195 :P, 65 reinforce :O

Its funny, i was messing around with them yesterday on dead mans (cos the maps so damn large..zzz) and infiltrated into the top/right hand strat point where an enemy heretic on half health was making an LP. They sat there for almost a minute shooting at this heretic on half health (FoF off) before the chaos guy decieded that he might need that heretic sometime after 10 minutes....

Honestly, i know they are supoposed to break morale, but they dont even do that very well.

[XavionDeosXIV]

...and make rangers less of a joke. At the moment rangers are without a doubt the most useless unit in the game.

Not true. Rangers can Instakill units within a targeted squad and Break their targeted squad VERY quickly. Alone, yes theyre useless. U stick them behind the council or massed infantry tho and watch the enemy break left and right. Takes a bit of micro though. They are MUCH improved from the beta. Only build 1 squad of them tho, 2 ABSOLUTE max or ur asking for a stomping.

Btw, have u seen the eldar forums. People over there are convinced the Council is as Relic intended. Hell one guy (The Deadly Shoe) claims that the Conceal bug was fixed. LART incoming...

[Drunk]

Not true. Rangers can Instakill units within a targeted squad and Break their targeted squad VERY quickly. Alone, yes theyre useless. U stick them behind the council or massed infantry tho and watch the enemy break left and right. Takes a bit of micro though. They are MUCH improved from the beta. Only build 1 squad of them tho, 2 ABSOLUTE max or ur asking for a stomping.

Btw, have u seen the eldar forums. People over there are convinced the Council is as Relic intended. Hell one guy (The Deadly Shoe) claims that the Conceal bug was fixed. LART incoming...

Rangers are the most useless unit the eldar have, and are possibly the most useless infy in the game.