How to be a better team player/mate.

[Nightravn44]

@Alpha..... please ignore these, as you say, idiots. You are providing the community an invaluable service. As a player who does not have a lot of time to play, let alone practice and experiment, this info is helping people get up to speed. What most of these elitest idiots have seem to have forgotton is that they where noobs at one point or another.

It is as you said much more entertaining to play with people who are close to your level of compentece. But then again these are probally the type of people who drop or quit when face with some real competition.

Ones does not become a master until he teaches one to become a master. Thank you for the information you have provided.

[Alpha_1]

Wow,

Never have I seen so eloquently worded praise, I feel shamed for sinking to his level. Thank you for the encouragement and praise.

What I should have pointed out is that like me there are bound to be people out there that have never played RTS games outside of DoW. I have played HW games but they do not have any chained command functions associated with the shift key. Just because a few old games do have that function doesn't mean everyone and their brother has experienced them.

[franchise]

Alpha ive learnt loads from this thread thanks a lot. However im also interested in other peoples points of view. Just because people dont agree with your own strategy doesn't mean they should post elsewhere or that their own tactics are in any way insuperiour to your own.

Before you type out a 20 line reply saying that i should go post on a different thread if i dont like it, i think this thread is brilliant, you should just allow other experienced player to share their own knowledge

Keep up the good work

[Kosumo]

Franchise, your a brave man/girl. agreed.

Alpha_1, lovely stuff only arms out not up above

GG

[Alpha_1]

Well Franchise, the point of this thread is to improve team play, if the poster is providing information along those lines I have no problems with that, however when someone posts about 1v1 stuff, I have to wonder how that is going to affect the teamplay this thread is intended to promote.

I think it is best to separate team strategy from 1v1 strategy, after all what will work in a team game doesn't always work in 1v1 play and may infact get you a loss.

A good example of a 1v1 thread with good info is Perp's Nightly lessons learned.

[ionfish]

I've deleted a couple of posts that did nothing to help the thread. This is a good, helpful, healthy discussion - let's keep it that way.

[Njoroge]

After your basic build is done and you know about the game nuances the topic of "how to attack" comes up. So assuming that in a 2v2 all players have a decent build, what do you feel the better attacking strategies are and why?

1) Rushing 1 player early
2) Rushing both players individually.
3) Swarming 1 player at a post-rush time.
(eg Reaper + FS + entangle + 3x HBolter + FC as soon as they are all built)
4) Expand and hold a central location. (Possible on Tartarus, Harder on SS because of the alleys to defend)
5) Harass vs tech?
6) ...

Just curious to hear your opinions, they have been of use so far.

Njoroge.

[Mike Lemmer]

Dual-rushing one player works well for me, mainly because my game starts to crumble at the midtech point. However, I never focus solely on rushing to the detriment of capping req. points. Without resources, a rush is just a rush. With resources, it becomes an unending swarm of blood & violence beating on the doorstep of my enemies.

[Murph]

There are risks to dual rushing and attacking individual opponents one on one in team games:

In a dual rush, it's possible that your opponent will simply bunker down and try to stay alive and delay your forces, while his allies flank your forces and take out your base with little resistance. It's happened to me on a few occasions, and once it became a mad scramble to destroy their base before they destroyed ours.

In an individual rush, you can really only pull it off if your team gains the upper hand. In a 2v2, both players need to win the initial battle, if they dont, your opponents can then support each other. In a 3v3, 2 players need to win, 4v4, 3. The skill of the individual player is more important in this form of attack. As soon as one player falls, his opponent can then apply his military assets to another. Basically, team games are like dominoes. When the first domino falls, the rest fall in rapid sequence.

I find that the most reliable way to win the game is to seize the center (in most maps, especially the long narrow 3v3 map), and build up. Usually with the center, you'll have control of the strategic points, relics, and critical points associated with it, and will have more resources. Then when you're ready, just overwhelm your opponents. This is just what I've experienced in my games. My teammates that I play with most (Alpha being one of them), can attest that I play quite aggressively :P

[Critta]

Alpha, first let me apologise for what I said in one of the "f2" related threads a while ago. I was acting like a bit of an fool!

Extremely useful thread you've made here, there was quite a lot of stuff I knew already, but I have also learnt quite a lot, thanks!

One overwatch related feature which I have noticed that you need to be *very* careful with is the commander.

Overwatching your commander can be very useful if you are a few RP (or power!) short, however you need to be aware that once he starts building, there is no way to cancel him if you change your mind as once he starts building, the button greys out and you cannot cancel overwatch, yet overwatch stays active.

If you cancel building the commander, a new one starts building immediately (due to overwatch!), before you get a chance to turn off overwatch.

It's normally not a problem the first commander you build, however later in the game after you have lost the intial one it can be very annoying if you change your mind about what you want to build.

[Njoroge]

There's a cancel all overwatch button.

[Critta]

Yup, that's the only way around it, it is still worth bearing in mind due to time restraints, using the "Cancal All OW" button can waste you a large amount of time having to go around re-starting any overwatch you have set.

Also if you are changing your mind about building a second commander it often means you are losing squads, cancelling overwatch whilst squads are in combat is tanamount to suicide.

Trust me, it can be incredibly annoying, use this feature with care.

[Njoroge]

Sorry yes, it sounded like I was saying it isn't annoying. It sounds like a very irritating bug, but there's at least a way around it although not ideal.

[Alpha_1]

Critta,

No problem, not that I remember the incident but no biggy.

Actually just pause overwatch then cancel the commander build, you can then canel the commander build overwatch.

I do that all the time, it only happens with unique units, only the units you can build one of.


Now on to the 2v2 attack question.

As Murph so aptly put it there are problems each attack scenario can entail. I prefer to take a combined approach to the problem.

That is if you are on a map that has you side by side like Biffy's or saints, the best thing to do is meet in the center and attack one person from there, however do not commit all your forces to the task.

Leave 1 or 2 squads each in the center for re-enforcenment or to intercept that possible base attack the other guy may try to initiate. How many squads you leave in reserve should depend on how many you and your ally have in combination.

In an early rush you really don't even need to aim for taking out the chosen opponent, taking down points and destroying listening posts is a worth while goal all by itself. Denying the enemy points or req is a good thing, and if shared res is on you hurt the whole team not just the individual. Take out any buildings that are easy game but don't throw all your forces away just trying to take out one opponent.

It is hard to say exactly what you should do as each map and every situation is dynamic and different but my general rule is to take the points of contention as early as possible to force a reaction to my actions and not to have to react to the opponents actions.

Controlling the engagement is always best, however knowing how to combat any given situation is important also.

[bubbapook]

brilliant thread - everyone should be forced to read through this, the number of times we've had to struggle cos of a lame teammate is unreal. Nothing worse than a 3v3 with one of those "I'm gonna do it my way" idiots :fight:

[Karnstein]

Yes, it a brilliant topic... I hope the orc-buddy from my 3vs3 k-lutien game would read it... playing 3vs3 with take and hold and all he had was 1 slugga-squad, all he said was "squiggo"... how could someone tech on a relique unit in such a game...*wonder* ?

[SkitzoPath]

i ave a question alpha. you can help your team build. i play chaos and i was wondering if using forced labor works on an ally's buildings?

[Ain'Ra-Khai]

A wonderfully written and highly informative thread Alpha_1, many thanks. I hope you continue to share your experience and knowledge with the playerbase in order that we may all play more challenging and enjoyable games.

[Alpha_1]

SkitzoPath,

I'm sure it does, however the more total workers on a project the faster it builds, so forced labor may be overkill.

Ain'Ra-Khai,

Thanks, and I will.

[Perp]

Alpha has previously stated, but it bears reiterating; if you start a building near your teammates base (like your HQ), you can have your teammate's builders finish it. We also do this with LPs, if we get busy and only cap stuff, we might start LPs and let our buds finish them up for us.

Alpha, any word on if they will have organized automatch play for clans in the upcoming patches? Or will they be allowing ranked created games?

[White_DragonZ]

yeah thanks for all the info alpha, didn't know bout overwatch.


one thing
Can u give basic setup for all races, as in the build lists i currently go
servitor build barracks, build scout, scout, servitor-build power gen, another servitor cap lp's build a squad of sm, works sometimes,
cheers

[Alpha_1]

Perp,

Don't know why you think I have inside information on the patch, your here at the forums more than I, you will see any thread about it before me.

White_DragonZ,

Okay, I'll post what I do as soon as I can compile the info for each race, I'll talk with my clan mates about their build orders to see what Ork and Chaos do as I only really know Sm and Eldar at the moment.

[White_DragonZ]

if u can get all of them that's awesome so i can print it out and use, it but for now can u do sm, as that's what i play the most and am best at.

[SyntaxError]

Definately thanks for all of the information you have posted Alpha. I've read through this entire thread, and it's helped my game play. I'm still experementing on team play. I usually play 3vs3 and 4vs4. The problems I usually run into, and it's probably due to my inexperience is losing LP's (I play as Chaos). I may have one that im capturing when an enemy sends in and destroys my heretics when they cap. I tend to have about 3 squads of them but I don't reinforce them. When I run into the enemy: orks run up melee on me and tear me up, while SM and Eldar sit from a far and pick me off before I have time to get in combat with them.

Also, what are the types of upgrades you want to stay away from. I usually pick them on who im facing, melee upgrades vs eldar, or ranged vs ork.

I guess what i'm asking is how can I avoid losing my LP's and taking others out there without losing my squads?

[Bioh@zard]

Horrors. Deep striking plasma guns 5 per squad, with a 2-cap squad delimiter, can make minced meat. Also, if only one SM squad is shooting your cultists, back away, and go at them when they are trying to take your SP (ie squatting down).

[Alpha_1]

Syntax,

I'm not yet playing with chaos enough to give you good answers to those questions, bioh@zard's responces are not possible so early in the game either. All I can suggest is instead of getting 3 heretic squads just get one to start and build 2 marine squads to help cap the points.

While I do not play chaos yet, I do know that with the initial money you can get 2 CSM and the CL without any LPs at all. Perhaps you need to get that out asap and forgo so many heretics.

As for taking down LPs, your CL and 2 squads of marins can take an LP down, having a spare squad of heretics around to then take the SP down would help. As marine I cap any enemy SPs I come across to make sure their economy is hurting. I'll take the LP down with the FC and marines then decap it with scouts, this keeps the marines available for a fight.

Since heretics are such crap units, you really need to keep them in the background when stronger forces are around, if not the money you spent on them is wasted. It is best to send marines in advance of them to engage the enemy units, then as the units fight your heretic can cap the point.

I can't really say what upgrades to avoid as I try to get all upgrades, however you should always get the upgrades your current troops will get the most benefit from first. That way your getting benefits from it as it completes.

When I start playing chaos I'll have a more indepth responce for you.

[Bioh@zard]

Well, the horrors can come pretty fast and are better shooting units than your average CSMs. It requires a pretty nasty build order, but can be done (see the possessed rush, only no reinforcing required and deep strike available).

Anyways, scout rushes are always harder to come out on top IMHO than the normal rush due to the 1 squad cap. The CL, when joined with a cultist squad, will do a pretty good job at taking out a FC - though I usually don't use him this way - and if you can get good at the force build you can pop out an armoury pretty fast. In 2 SMs vs 2 CSMs, you can win the day by going into CC with them. 10 CSMs will own 8 SMs in CC, not in shooting. Of course, F2 will ruin your day there...

Finally, cultists (in 1v1) can be used to make a very hard rush. Just not vs. Orks I believe. In multiplayer this will not be a very good idea, though. Still, giving them Nade launchers will give them some more value (in this case, especially vs. orks!)

One more thing: I usually put one Heretic on my barracks, force building, and use another to build one or two LPs with force build. This gives you a slight edge in reinforcing time (lord and marines are out faster) and in resources (you gain the LP addon to req. faster)

And a final note: play vs. the CPU with CSMs on insane, save the replay and see what gives. Mimicing the CPU will give you a pretty good build order, which you can elaborate on.

[Alpha_1]

Well Bioh@zard thanks for the reply, those are good 1v1 points but how do they stack up in a team game? Remember this thread is about team play not 1v1 play, not everything used in 1v1 play works in team games and most of what works in team games will not work in 1v1 play.

Frankly rushing horrors isn't going to do your early economy any good, you can't cap points with horrors, you can only take LPs down with them, while destroying LPs will hurt the enemy taking the point ALL the way down is far more damaging. Besides are the horrors going to be out soon enough to help you cap the last of your points on any 2v2+ map out there? I see horrors as a early assault support unit, not as an early SP capping support unit.

Finally playing the CPU on insane will not teach you much, harder is better, only the insane CPU gets an income bonus, that means you can NEVER replicate what the insane CPU does. Not so for the harder CPU, you can copy it adnausium.

[Alpha_1]

Now on to White DragonZ's request.

Keep in mind that each map will require a slightly different start for optimum team play.

My normal build is:

HQ:
Scout
Scout
worker
Scout
infiltrate

AFTER I select that stuff the worker starts the barracks. I find it more important to get to that first SP as soon as possible and the 1-2 second lag where you tell the worker to build the barracks can make a big difference in getting the first SP up.

At the barracks I'll queue the FC and not queue the first marine squad til after the commander is 3/4s to 4/5ths done.

Reason for not queueing is that the 200 can be used to build LPs and/or a power gen at the start.

Keeping in mind that on 3v3 and 4v4 games I'm normally the one on an end so i do not build the power first, I get LPs on my points closest to the enemy so they can't decap my points before I can kill them. Each LP done gets me a +6 and 50 req back so it is worth it to wait on queueing the first marine squad.

Here is a little tip for you, while you have the HQ selected hit the 'Y' key (set waypoint) then place the waypoint over the CLOSEST SP, what this does is have your first squad IMMEDIATLY head to and AUTOMATICALLY cap that first point. Once each unit is built just reset the waypoint to the next thing to be built. If it is a worker set the waypoint to a building that is going up, if another scout set it to the next SP to be captured. This will ease your start a little by making the capping of the first few points more automatic.

Depending on the map I will waypoint the barracks close to the first point of contention, this will have troops at the location I expect to come under attack without me having to tell them to go there.

I play with shared resources too, that is another factor to consider, if you are in a game where it is off you will need to get your own power gen up asap in order to help you along. I usually make the LP I will expect to see battle over one with a gun, this way I have one more gun helping out in the battle, the extra req doesn't hurt either, lol.

As soon as you reach your initial pop cap for troops (perp's infamous 10/10) you have a choice, get more troops or get the armory. If the fighting is heavy I get the armory, that way I deal more damage for the little I have. This also allows me to get to level 1 asap if need be. A few heavy bolters on vanilla troops can really easy the strain.

I play the rest by ear, it depends on how good my ally supports me and how offensive the opponent I face is, once you have played for a while you will be able to judge the flow of the battle from here yourself.

As I said each map is different and will require a little different start, some maps will have you not see contact til after you have the commander and 1-2 squads out, some will have you on the offensive/defensive imeadiatly. Take each map into consideration.

Tell ya'll what, I'll get graphics of each map over the next few weeks and go through how I set up for each map and also point out terrain features. This will help you better understand the team play maps out there.

[Corsix]

Tell ya'll what, I'll get graphics of each map over the next few weeks and go through how I set up for each map and also point out terrain features. This will help you better understand the team play maps out there.

I already have:
http://get.filehosting.org/qz8709.zip

[White_DragonZ]

thanks alpha =)

[SyntaxError]

When you're sending your squad out to cap SP's, do you go furthest out and work yourself in? Say on Kasyr Lutien do you cap the CP first with your first squad so you have a chance to counter an enemy trying to decap you? Or do you work in your area first then push out to the further points on the map.

[Alpha_1]

Always send the first 1-2 squads to cap the closer spots, you want req coming in as soon as possible. If you work from the outside in you run the risk of losing points to the enemy because you don't have the req to get an LP up on the further points.

The only exception to that rule is if you are in a 2v2 and on a map where you have to fight for center spots, like SSq, BP, or TC.

[White_DragonZ]

i just noticed something alpha, 3 squads of scouts, but that makes only 2 of sm later and ends with 9/10, do u go another scout or servitor?

cheers

[DeathGuard]

Well i just read 6 pages of this and i like what im reading Good job Alpha_1 i learned alot from it, keep up the good work, im a mainly a SM or CSM player, i tried the other races there ok orks are fun eldar i know like just cant get hang of them my friend played them for 2 weeks and hes good, beats me alot, but with eldar it was like 1 win him 9 wins me and his win was first one when i wasnt ready, so i think we need some good Eldar help anyone in your clan play them ?, thanks i will kep your thread watch for more info.

[Alpha_1]

Well dragon, by that time I am getting the next pop level or am on the way to level 1 anyway. As I said I'm the one on the end so I don't need more marines than scouts, especially once I get snipers.

I will generally end up with 4 workers until level 2 where I will kill off 2 so I can get some termies.

[White_DragonZ]

aaaaaaaaaaaahhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh,

thats a good point, what's ur view on termies for strat, and the less used types,
am's, ls's,transport, and the commander(for me i use them at the start when everyone has basic troops but then keep them in the base once i reach tier 2, unless i want to win the game then i usually send everything.)

that reminds me, can u post about sercuring the win(when u should send your attack troops, and usually what u would send, and of course ur deep strike strats.

cheers

[thagrizz]

Great infor Alpha. Thanks for taking the time to write this!

[SyntaxError]

Hey Alpha, do you have any replays of you playing for 1.1? Also, how does your strat change in BO if you aren't on the outside closest to the enemy. What if you are say in middle on KL, or middle position in lost hope?

Secondly, on team play, do you usually stay in 1 for a while and amass a scout +SM + AM or do you tech quicker to 2 so you can get LS, Dreds, and Terms?

[Alpha_1]

I don't have many replays of 1.1 play because I don't have a lot of time for play, plus I only keep good replays most of which will be 3v3 and 4v4 games when I have them.

Nothing was good about the 2 games perp is going to post. I let my anger at his betrayal cloud my playing, I should not have bothered playing the games, but was too pissed at him to walk away. You can however look at his and his allies' play to see good team play.

[Alpha_1]

Yes I did, however my PC is disassembled at this time due to home improvements, so I have had little time to respond to your PM.

I should be back online by next week.

[MatticusMaximus]

oh man, I will follow this guide religiously...

[Alpha_1]

Now to start the map descriptions. First up is biffy's peril.



Above you will notice 1,2,3, and 4 in white, these are the standard start locations, the spots are on inclines and above the battle field, though this does not add any kind of advantage.

In yellow the spots marked as 1 are your and your allies spots that will be closest to the enemy, and thus the ones most likely to be attacked first.

Spots 2 in yellow are the relics that are between you and the enemy, one of them is yours the other is the enemies, the problem lies in which one you and the enemy will fight over.

Spot 3 is the critical on the map and even if you do not play T&H you should try to get it, it's FoV allows you to have early warning on attacks comming from the enemy. Don't make it your first point to take but try to take it as soon as feasably possible.

Spots 4 in yellow are the SPs belonging to the enemy that are closest to you and your ally, if you have troops standing near your SPs at Y1 they can actually reach the points if they have rockets and destroy them.

You will notice that there are large craters at the foot of each base, make sure you use that cover when defending OR attacking, it is vital when facing equal numbers of similar troops, you want all the extra help you can get.

One last point to notice is that there are 4 slag heaps between the 4 start spots, it is usually safe to build a thermal on the one between you and your ally. However, there is one point you need to consider. The area beside the heaps can give a tier 3 SM or CSM a view of your base to drop troops directly into your base, keep that in mind when turtling up happens.

Biffy's is a pretty straight forward map, not much in the way of features or specials, I'll add more maps as I finish the detailing.

[Mike Lemmer]

Also note that due to the cover, the critical point in the middle can become No Man's Land late in the game, with everyone holing up in the craters and anyone venturing out into the middle getting ventilated. Be sure you know how to crack a turtler; it will come in handy if a stalemate begins.

[White_DragonZ]

Hey Alpha, do u want help with the maps?

ill be glad to help urs as u are helping with mine.

[Alpha_1]

It's okay, I just don't have a lot of time to devote soley to this game, I am working on my MCSE so I spend less time here than I used to.

[Alpha_1]

Now for more maps.

Saints Square




Spots 1-4 in white are the start locations for the players, each spot has 3 SPs in close proximity with each corner having a relic and anothe SP. Criticals line up the center and 2 slag heaps are in the center as well.

Spots 1 and 2 in red are the relic and strat points that each team will have to compette for. I would advise any team share the SP/relic between them, one take the relic and one get the SP. This gives you an equal number of req points. Then you can choose which corner (or take both) to attack to get a relic for the team mate that is lacking one. A special note, there are walls separating the relic and SPs so unless you have troops that can jump you will have to go around to get to the other point, plus you can use is as a means to prevent CC units from getting into CC with your troops.

Spot 3 in red denotes the middle critical in the center of the map. Stairs lead up to it and slow down troops trying to get up it. It is surrounded by heavy cover craters that make it easy to get ranged troops in on the attack while sheilding them from return fire. The FoV the crit provides allows you to see the other 2 crits and if they are being taken and will let you see any troops heading in on you.

The center platform which holds the 2 slag heaps and 3 crits is also on raise terrain, this means the troops slow down climbing it and the fact each corner is an obstical, makes it so you have to go over or around to flank anyone set up on the platform. While higher ground is not a balistic advantage it is still a tacticale one.

[Alpha_1]

Now for more maps.

Quatra




Spots 1-4 in white are the start locations for the players, each is a small canyon all it's own. The channels make it hard to move 2 armies through them for attacks and bunch up troops for great artillery attacks.

Spots 1 and 2 in red are the relic and strat points that each team will have to share. If res sharing is on it doesn't matter if one ally gets both but if it is off it is really important for you to share the points with your ally. Who ever takes the relic should leave the strat point for the other giving each member of the team 4 points for req intake.

Spot 3 in red denotes the one critical and SP in the center of the map. I'd say it is far more important for the team in spots 3 and 4 to have the critical because the critical allows viewing of spot 3's main base, making deep strikes really easy to do even if no scouts are in the back field. The players on team 3 and 4 really need to keep the crit on their side to prevent the FoW from being exposed on spot 3.

Spot 4 in red denotes the point at which the critical will allow viewing, it is a small wall allowing for jumping troops of any type over it to attack inside or outside the spot 3 base. If you don't think about it or don't know about it you can lose a lot of buildings because you were not ready for an attack from there. Conversely it makes a good spot to jump troops over to take the crit down or to attack troops trying for the crit.

Spot 1 in yellow denotes the spot a marine player should send scouts to allow for dropping troops into the back field. Most people do not think to look back there for scouts and will sit and turtle with turrets to prevent an easy access to their base. If you happen to sneak scouts back there at the start of the game you will have a way in to their base that is usually undefended. Keep that in mind wheather you are in spots 1-2 or 3-4, it can win you the game.

[Thal]

Simple amazing thread Alpha. You dont get even close the credit you deserve for it.
Learned quite a bit myself and will try to pass the wisdom on.

[YellowAlienBaby]

I have a question about when it's a BAD idea to stay and fight.

Basically, in team games either everything is fne or I get abuse, and the abuse is over this particular point.

For example, a 2v2v2v2 game I got CSM rushed dead early. I had taken a bit of a gamble and hoofed my scouts out the door capping other points (big map), waiting for a marine squad to pop up. Anyawy, the rusher arrives, and there's NO Way I'm gona save my base.

An ally comes to help, Brilliant. He can hold them off long enough for me to spit out a couple of builders, a couple of SM squads and hoof it over to his base to get a new HQ up etc.. - or so I thought, becasue we just simply ere not going to win the fight.

But, nooo. Ally sees my 2 servs and MS beetling over to his base and he doesnt like it. Has a go at me, call me a newb, lots of things. So, I do what he says send my MS to the fight, get my servs to repair whats left of the CB and HQ. 2 mins later my game's over, he retreats to his base, without me able to help him at all any more. He thinks Ive quit and I get to see him slagging me off to the other team in the chat logs. I never quit, I like to watch ;P

I think I was right to fall back and fight another day, rather than just keep pumping in units that are pointless to a battle 'cos your ally is screaming at you.

And they wont listen to any rational explanation either.

Anyone else agree?