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How To Balance a RTS Game.

  1. #1
    Gnug315
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    How To Balance a RTS Game.

    I've been playing RTS games seriously since C&C came out in '95, mainly focusing on C&C, Total Annihilation and Empire Earth, along with a few months of WC2, Red Alerts, SC, Homeworld, WC3, C&C Generals and Empires: DotMW and probably a few more best forgotten. My point is I have some experience.

    The genre has certainly come a long way since then! C&C, a great game I had lots of fun playing competitively for 2 years, would crash and burn today if launched today for the simple reason that game balance between GDI and NOD was so skewed (NOD bikes, anyone?). Back then, one simply accepted the fact that one side was stronger than the other, and either played the best side in order to win, or the worst for the challenge.

    Attitudes sure have changed since then, and for good reason - few people would enjoy playing black in chess if black lacked the queen unit! It's bad enough that white has the initiative.

    The thing with small-scale RTS games like SC, Generals and DoW etc. is that the confrontation is early and fierce, and a blunder in the first skirmish will cost you the game vs a skilled player. So will an inferior build order or bad expansion/teching strategy, as they should. Maps are small, and there's not a lot of free ground to be taken, so the fight for the shared resources is of paramount importance. And since the vocal bunch among us have begun caring more about good gameplay than marveling at the prettyness of 3D tanks and the sheer coolness of online gaming, it's imperative that all sides and maps are perfectly balanced so one can't "just pick side A" to guarantee a win. And so, achieving a perfect balance between all the sides is gaining a lot of importance. Vocal people are what are heard, after all.

    Blizzard has shown that a game's success can *hugely* gain from being a great competitive online game, with neigh-perfect balance and an almost flawless online matchmaking service. I believe at one point, SC had sold 3 million copies - 2 million of those being in Korea! Thousands of people ARE actually pro SC players, earning good money doing what they love.

    Imagine X years from now. Games released have the basics down pat: they're pretty, cool and fun to play, and hopefully there's something new and innovative about them that makes them stand out from classics decades past - a reason to play them. They have no lethal bugs; in fact, that have no lethal lacks of any kind - different language versions are compatible, the game installs and runs well on all systems (focus more on scalable gfx quality, guys), and the online matchmaking service has basics like friends list, arranged team games, competitive and non-competitive areas and much more we haven't thought of yet.

    Which leaves the question of how to achieve the critical, perfected balance that lends long life to a game with already great gameplay and mucho coolness factor. I humbly suggest the following idea to any game designer and developer that wants to take advantage of it, free of charge:

    Most designers, however talented and dedicated to creating great games - I admire and thank you all - usually just don't cut it when it comes down to abusing various tactics. So, spend a little money hiring pro gamers to test your games. Employ these gamers all the way thru developement, and when the game is released, continue to employ them. *gasp*

    Have them play online, picking whichever side is deemed weakest or vulnerable to rush A, B or C, or whichever side their opponents wish, and have them prove balance is fine by simply winning consistently with the weakest race! Have them available for challenges online, and have the replays posted of how to stop rush A, B or C, as well as generally play well.

    The argument thus becomes: If they can stop rush A, beat side 3 and handle players abusing unit Y, so can you, with enough skills and experience. Yes, it might be tough to combat rush C, and yes, it might be easiest playing and winning with the default human race, but if the Pro Gamers are having no trouble maintaining an excellent win rate regardless of what is thrown at them, obviously the rush/side/unit can be effectively countered and beat, given proper knowledge, preperation and execution.

    It goes without saying that in order for this to work, in order for the replays not being too revealing etc., gameplay must resemble that of Go's (best strategy game ever, impossible to utterly master) more than that of Tic Tac Toe's (sillyest game ever, trivial to utterly master).

    Granted, RTS games are still mostly bought by people who will never even try them online, and so the pretty units and stuff is still the most important thing in order for a game to sell. Granted, I don't know anything about creating and publishing games, and I don't know anything about deadlines or priorities or why a game could possibly ever ship without different language versions being able to play together (was it really not tested even once?). But if I were in the business, I'd be drooling at Blizzard's success, and go about achieving gamebalance in a professional manner - just like the design and developement of the game is left to professionals!

    It's time for the RTS genre to grow up and seize it's rightful, utterly dominating role as the passtime of choice for the growing hordes of casual and serious online gamers alike :]

    - Gnug315

    PS. There's a reason TA came out on top of gamespy's Top 25 RTS Games Of All Time, right ahead of StarCraft. There's such a huge variety in the game depending on map type and size, there's enough to satisfy any desire. You have your small land rush maps, your metal maps with huge income rates, your air maps, small island maps, huge mountain maps, all-sea maps etc. etc. It took me half a decade to do it all enough to feel it was time to finally move on to something new (actually, I mostly stopped to dedicate myself more to my job as a pro gambler), and the game is still going strong, with just as much action as DoW or most other new RTS's enjoy. Moreover, the admittedly randomly discovered genius of including self-produced resource structures, allowing for exponential growth in base if so desired (well balanced versus claiming more of the map and the imbedded resources therein) hugely added to the strategic depth and sheer variance in possible effective build orders and approaches to the entire game. Curious fact: The game's brilliant creator, Chris Taylor, reportedly sucked beyond belief at his own game.

  2. #2
    BeHe
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    Nice post, yes it is sad to me that glaring bugs and balance issues identified in beta were still in release, but then we dont know the pressure relic were under to get it out to the publishers. Im sure if they had it their way it would have been delayed and the niggling issues ironed out, this happens so much these days its virtually the norm with the blokes with the cash calling the shots instead of the talent behind creating it.

    Im sure balance will come, relic had just better not hang about getting there or people will move on.

  3. Forum Subscriber  #3
    Logico-Fishosophicus ionfish's Avatar
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    Just in case you weren't aware of this, Relic had a balance team including pro Starcraft players testing the game all the way through to release.

  4. #4
    Gnug315
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    ionfish: Ok, well, I'd very much like to see any of them beat me with SM/Chaos, because so far I'm 100% with my Ork Rush against SM/Chaos. A lot of testing has shown me there's simply nothing that can be done to stop it. There aren't really any more options to explore.

    I'd love to be proven wrong, though.

    http://forums.relicnews.com/showthre...748#post601748

  5. #5
    Evan_gelion
    Guest
    Someone's pretty sure of themselves, ain't they? I was around (and played) the first C&C when it came out, doesn't make me a 'master' buddy. Maybe balancing a game 100% perfectly on the first go is harder than you think.

  6. #6
    Slashco
    Guest
    Interesting points Gnug, but I'm not sure I agree with your 'pro gamer' solution. Showing that the pros can win with a side perceived as weak doesn't necessarily prove that things are balanced, rather it just shows that you can win with any side if your skill is much higher than that of your opponent. The point of balance should be that anyone stands a decent chance with any side against similarly-skilled players, and introducing 'pros' into the equation kind of invalidates the whole thing.

  7. #7
    Aragorn7
    Guest
    Balancing is really really hard, but if anyone knows how, it is Blizzard. I once read a document that was written by the Project Lead of WC3 on balance. It was very long and technical, but it detailed EVERY single aspect of what affects a game and how you can fix it. However, in the case of WC3, the game honestly can't be balanced so what does this all mean?

    Well, Wc3 is very close to balance, but there are a lot of things in the way. Heros and Items cause the worst problems for the game. The items are pure random, which makes every single game different. Heros are really hard to balance because some races depend on certain ones or else they can't win.

    The trick is to have a very good beta to fix all of the issues before the game even comes out. But even that is a hard thing to do because games rarely are fully finished when they come out because of how hard it is to make a game in the first place! The real problem is, that the publishers are pushing the release date. So, the developers have to do their best to get the best possible game out on that date. Version 1.0 is rarely a perfect build.

  8. #8
    Vorque
    Guest
    Gnug has a point about the slugga rush. If you haven't faced it yet, you will. Every Ork I play seems to be using it or trying to use it. I only win if the person isn't good at it yet.

  9. #9
    LORD ORION
    Guest
    Do not trust the Gnug, for he is a Xeno.

    J/K

    Gnug315 is probably one of the all around best RTS players, exceling at micro and abuseable build orders. He has been a top competitive player in MANY RTSes.

  10. #10
    logo
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    Companies have been using 'pro-gamers' for a while now. Though being hired to playtest a game really turns you into a pro-gamer so they could higher anyone and they'd be a pro-gamer .

    No but seriously. I know that Ensemble Stuidos has and always has had (for the past couple of years) quite a big group of playtesters to discover balance issues.

    Same with DoW they have a group of playtesters working to balance and offer suggestions for the game (thank Josey for having chat in recorded game :P).

    What you suggest is correct, and it is already happening. It just can't be perfect. Different people think differently. Unless you get a large large number of players which really can only be gotten by releasing the game then you won't have perfect balance.

    Even wc3 had its imbalances I remember the first month of playing in 1v1 I always saw the same stratagy again and again.


    Also there are levels of balance. Should you just balance for the 'perfect' play or balance for the average skill. Should balance be based on absolute power or on how easy it is to unlock that power? there's room for a lot of interpretation.

    One example of this are fast moving ranged units in some of the Age games. To the majority of players they were weak and didn't stand up in combat. However some of the select few who were good at micro were able to kite and run around the units and put them to use with great effectiveness. Is this unit balanced or not? It's a tough thing to do.

  11. #11
    LORD ORION
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    Well, the problem with pro-gamers is they tend to forget about the "average Joe" when balancing a game.

  12. #12
    korea_popstar
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    wc3 was handled soooooooooooooooo poorly.

    PEOPLE TOLD THEM WHAT WAS WRONG AND BLIZZ WAS LIKE NOPE SORRY

    it was pathetic. wc3 will always be remembered as a money maker of course, but as a total flop for gameplay

    i really hope they balance this game, and to be honest, the pros of wc didnt know shit all about balance, they just knew how to abuse

  13. #13
    BETA Noir's Avatar
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    Well, the problem with pro-gamers is they tend to forget about the "average Joe" when balancing a game.
    Quoted for emphasis.

    Despite what some people would like you to think,"pros" and veterans do not a game community make.The people out there playing are going to be mostly newbs and casual players,which do not want to spend the 40957305098 hours it takes to learn the intricacies of every single race,unit,and weapon in the game.When they see something that seems unbeatable they'll vote with thier feet and just leave the game.

    If nothing is done,then eventually the game pretty much dies out.You already can start seeing this in GCII and it's issues with Turtles and DS whoring.

    Face it,when the average player right now starts playing,is utterly defeated 5 times in a fow by the Seer Council rush(yes I know...it's just an example) and it's clear that he couldn't have done any better against it,he's not going to think "Oh I need to train myself for three months and than revel as a I crush that cheap strat" or "Holy shit I need to make some test games to experiment with new stuff to beat that".No,he's going to think "wtf imbalance" and than either continue playing with that anger or stop online altogether.You let that guy hanging for more than a few months and he's gone.

    WE DON'T WANT THAT!!!!

  14. #14
    Aragorn7
    Guest
    wc3 was handled soooooooooooooooo poorly.

    PEOPLE TOLD THEM WHAT WAS WRONG AND BLIZZ WAS LIKE NOPE SORRY

    it was pathetic. wc3 will always be remembered as a money maker of course, but as a total flop for gameplay

    i really hope they balance this game, and to be honest, the pros of wc didnt know shit all about balance, they just knew how to abuse
    Yep, WC3 was handled horribly. I think it was excecuted horribly also.... -_-

    I think blizzard sometimes has the right idea, but aren't willing to put any work into it. They immediately shoot "revamp entire game" ideas down, because they don't think the game needs it! IMO, WC3 is an example of how mods could easily fix the game, but blizzard is good at sueing people with the intent to mod WC3. Read up on Blizzard Entertainment Vs. Bnetd.

  15. #15
    Regin
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    Blizzard games != Balance..

  16. #16
    Avatar of the Dark Gods Warbrother's Avatar
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    Wait, wait ...

    DoW is a game right? Im not being tested am I? Is there a professional gaming league that Im not aware of? Ive been playing video games since pong and nobody told me anything about going pro! Seriously (or not ... which is my point) There is no such thing as a Master Gamer, its all in your head. And the game is enjoyable, dare I say ... entertaining even? Easily in the top ten percent of its genre. Why cant we all just get along?
    Warbrother (a.k.a. The Imperial Herald)
    Champion of Chaos
    Art of Jeff Spangler

  17. #17
    goxwerd
    Guest
    people give way to much credit to blizzard for their games, and balance.. BLIZZARD GOT LUCKY with sc being as balanced as it was.. everything before and since has been just as crappy as all the other games balance wise.

    SC is the model for balance.. but i believe blizzard just got lucky on that game. flame all u want though ;P

  18. #18
    Raith
    Guest
    SC was a fluke, I doubt Blizz could do it again, while WC3 is huge in the RTS world, it doesnt come close to SC. the Blizz team of today isnt the one back in 1998 when the scored such a huge hit.

  19. #19
    Relic Entertainment
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    Actually Relic hired a bunch of professional RTS gamers for the internal testing team, one of them being the current #1 SC world champion 2 years running.

    Too bad they let the SC and entangle imbalances through, despite every beta tester screaming it was imbalanced from day 1.

    Lesson learned:

    Top players from one game are not necessarily top players at other games.

    In the case of DoW, it almost seems they weren't even playing the same game. But to be fair, they were playing through a whole lot of different versions from the beta testers, but they really dropped the ball on the SC. They probably didn't even TRY rushing to SC. After chatting with one of the internal testers myself, he claimed that they weren't overpowered because they aren't that durable. *jaw drops*

    Either he was playing entirely different versions where the SC wasn't imbalanced (and he did mention he played through a ton of different versions) or he had the all too common "A skilled player can defeat it" mindset. I would like to give him the benefit of the doubt and think he was playing a more balanced version than the beta, but then the question begs to be asked, "Why didn't we get THAT version for release?"

    I dunno who really was responsible for letting the SC imbalance stay around for 4 versions of the closed/open beta and a release version, but it's such a disaster. Sure I can accept that finding the right way to balance it might be difficult, but why not just find some kind of band-aid for it until a patch? The imbalance is game ruining, and we've demonstrated Eldar play fine without the SC, so it wouldn't have made the Eldar unplayable.

    Normally I'm very understanding when it comes to imbalances on release because it can be hard to balance a game, but I've never seen such a huge imbalance get through to release when from day 1 of closed beta the testers were fully aware of it and were saying "THERE IS A HUGE IMBALANCE!" So as you can expect, we have a very big "WE TOLD YOU SO!" reaction, so that's why we're all coming off as kind of harsh. We don't mean to be rude Relic, but please understand how frustrating it is for us who tried so hard to tell you. If maybe we had replays to prove it, we could have averted it.

    Anyways, the point here is hiring pro-players may not solve anything if they don't have the proper mindset for the particular game. DoW throws some people off due to the different emphasis on things and different amounts of micro. It's easy for some people to adapt to this game, but I've met a lot of top war3/SC players who have difficulty in this game.

  20. #20
    Evan_gelion
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    I have to admit I am extremely disappointed that the SC was released bugged, because this was a ridicliously talked about issue amongst beta-testers, and was even admitted as a bug; so it begged the question, why wasn't it fixed? A lot of other stuff was fixed, why not that? But I don't claim to know, there is probably a decent reason for it.

  21. #21
    Thygrrr
    Guest
    Quote Originally Posted by Gnug315
    It goes without saying that in order for this to work, in order for the replays not being too revealing etc., gameplay must resemble that of Go's (best strategy game ever, impossible to utterly master) more than that of Tic Tac Toe's (sillyest game ever, trivial to utterly master).
    Comes not as a surprise to me that Gnugs not only seem to wtfpwn out on the battlefield, but also with regard to the imagery, comparisons and arguments used in what I deem one of the best-written posts in the DoW forums so far

    /SIGNED!

    ...mostly, at least. Because I think monopolizing those "checks of balance" for pro gamers is pretty enervating for the casual gamers down there in the 1100's. While a strong unit could pose no threat to anyone above a certain level of micro skill, for all those beyond, it could be immensely threatening (just think Über-Units). "Balance" and "Skill" aren't continuous functions, they're more of a discrete thing. Either you are good enough to counter a strat, or you aren't. If the major part of the player base simply lacks the skill to counter a certain build, it doesn't help if all the PGs out there tell them to stop whining because to them, the build poses no threat whatsoever.

    In my eyes, balance is a strictly statistical process - if it all adds up right, there should be a big zero under the bottom line... under all the bottom lines, like damage dealt, units dying, ressources spent, pixels occluded, etc. pp. The true problem is, of course, that this field of game theory is not very well understood; and probably just as hard to prove/solve as P=NP or the generalized Riemann Hypothesis (to mention some science buzzwords). Nobody really seems to have a clue where to start or how the problem could be written down in numbers.

    Empirical balancing using "Pro Gamers" might be constructive, maybe even effective, but essentially, that would only truly aid in balancing the game for the pros. People with less skill will be left out.

    I die painfully to Mass CSM, every blasted time. But I have lonst only one or two games sagainst Ork players - ever. Balance looks a lot different 'down here' than it does 'up there'. If I play someone on exactly my skill level (on SM) and he plays Chaos, he will beat me. If he plays Ork, in turn I'll be victorious. Heck, I can even spank a few Eldar players despite SC.

    If someone at or beyond your (Gnug315's, Fenris', OjKa's) skill level can't beat Orks but can beat Chaos at that same level, that means that for top players, Orks might be imbalanced. At the same time, for somewhat new players like myself, Chaos is imbalanced.

    IMHO you are providing a good idea, but it's not really a full-fledged solution. In particular, I fear that by essentially telling everybody "you just need to get better!" via example of the pros in that "Balance Council", newer players will be more inclined to leave the community which apparently isn't their world, but the world of the pros. Hence, the player base would age drastically (see Quakeworld) and with only über-1337 players in the competitions, less and less new players will have the courage or motivation to build up enough skill to be on top themselves. Not to mention the fact that the skilled ones will also improve in the meantime... "Achilleus and the Turtle" come to mind.

    But yes, to be honest, I hate nothing more than being good at a game and then see it made "noob friendlier" in a balance fix... hence I think your idea of having top players determine what is balanced empirically is the best answer to a most likely unsolvable problem. Everybody gets better over time, though most newcoming players stay far below the skill levels of the hardcore players - forever!


    P.S.:
    Quote Originally Posted by Gnug315
    PS. There's a reason TA came out on top of gamespy's Top 25 RTS Games Of All Time, right ahead of StarCraft.
    I still have a mint condition, NRFB (never removed from box) copy of Total Annihilation here on my little "altar".
    Last edited by Thygrrr; 9th Oct 04 at 8:43 PM.

  22. #22
    BeHe
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    I still have a mint condition, NRFB (never removed from box) copy of Total Annihilation here on my little "altar".
    Freak!

  23. #23
    Member SchizoBadger's Avatar
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    Hey as far as I am concerned this game is balanced. The seer council needs fixed but other than that it is fine! I have played for and against each side and have learned the strengths and weaknesses of each and it looks balanced to me. Maybe if you complaining numb skulls would try to play the races how they were designed to be played, you would think they were balanced too! That is all!

  24. #24
    Relic Entertainment
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    @DemonicBadger

    You do realize that Relic has officially anounced that Eldar is unbalanced? Don't throw insults without looking at the evidence first. Actually, don't ever throw insults.

  25. #25
    Evan_gelion
    Guest
    And... you do realize he acknowledged that, as the thread in question specifically only cites the Seer council and plasma grenades as the only thing about the Eldar, right?

  26. #26
    gravity
    Guest
    I actually think this game is pretty balanced if you ignore the bugginess of the Seer Council. The slugga rush seems like a true imbalance, but it's pretty refined for so soon after the game has come out. I'd say DOW right now is at least as balanced than most RTSes right after they come out, bugs aside.

    As for hiring pro-gamers to help balance games, that could certainly help, but you have to make sure you hire the right ones. The ideal would be someone who is both creative (which is necessary for fulling exploring a brand-new game) and can articulate their thoughts well (ie being able to say exactly how and why something is imbalanced, rather than just "this is imbalanced", or giving a false reason), and has a good understanding of how you want the game to be (so that they help lead it in the right direction, rather than just objecting to any things they don't personally like). In other words, someone with a bit of "designer blood" in them would be better than someone who purely plays to win.

    An example, at least from the creativity point of view, might be the Starcraft players Boxer or Nal_Ra, who are known for being creative and pulling out surprise strategies, rather than Xellos or Reach, who tend to play a lot more by-the-book. Heck, even some of the "good amateur" players who think/write about the theory of their games a lot could potentially be good choices.

  27. #27
    Thygrrr
    Guest
    Top players from one game are not necessarily top players at other games.
    Totally true. I used to be top at Descent and Counter-Strike, ranked at #5 of the world ladder in American Conquest for months on end, and also very good at Total Annihilation.

    AND BOY do I get my moist n00b arse spanked in Dawn of War, Quakeworld, CounterStrike 1.4+ ... and the day I had my entire army, defenses and base recycled by my opponent's meticulously microed construction vehicles (a hilariously humilating feat), I also knew I wasn't "expert" at Total Annihilation anymore. GG!!!

    "Pro" status is something that fluctuates, often a mere break of four or eight weeks will put you out of the loop in a way that you might never recover. Or a new strategy fad erupts that you simply can't adapt to because your brain is wired on the obsolete strategies you played for months, every day, strategies that have become second nature for you (psychology knows this as the potence law of memory [lit. transl. from German] ... "Actions and procedures which you learned to respond to a given situation at one time will always be easier to remember and perform than newer solutions and knowledge which you acquired at a later time.")

  28. #28
    Gnug315
    Guest
    Thanks for all the replies.

    I agree that skillz learned in one RTS game might not be entirely applicable in others. Games such as Total Annihilation, Empire Earth, Homeworld and DoW don't have such an imbred focus on micro compared to many other RTS games. In DoW, game balance depends mostly on build orders, strategies and their counters, with micro being a less deciding factor. So yes, I agree one would need more than SC pros testing games like DoW - something I am sure could be arranged.

  29. #29
    Aliasalpha
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    Perhaps an earlier open beta would help, I was part of the last phase and didn't really notice any major bugs (except the inability to scroll up & left with the mouse when a dialogue box was onscreen). I never noticed that the seer council had this conceal bug (in all honesty, I STILL haven't noticed it playing eldar in the full game), I figured that they were tougher because they were an elite team of combat hardened warlocks rather than because of a bug and since they don't seem to get entangle (why??) I didn't use them much.

    The thing that I kind of miss from the old days of C&C is the Engineer raid, I remember plenty of times loading up 2 APCs of grenadiers & 1 of engineers, doing a lightning thrust into the enemy base and then capturing & selling my opponents stuff... great fun. Only thing in DoW that's comparable is a sneaky teleporting bonesinger building a cloaked webway gate behind enemy lines

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