Eldar Tier 2 and 3

[Parnassus]

Ok, to begin with, what constitutes the different tiers for Eldar? If we would have to split the eldar teching into three tiers, what would it be? Personally I guess Tier 1 would be before Soul Shrine, and Tier 2 before Mobilize for War and Tier 3 comes after that, does that sound about right?

Now, Tier 2 can come extremely fast for eldar, I build soul shrine almost straight away so I never even get into combat until Tier 2, which makes it seem like you cant really talk about three tiers with eldar, the other races have distinct Tiers where they have different tactics and the transition between tiers are tactics in themselves.

Next, I dont really see a reason to go into "tier 3", ie mobilize for war. Even in really long 1v1 matches theres really nothing that BLs and infantry cant handle. The upgrades after MfW arent really necesary and neither are the vehicles.

The only thing I even see as interesting is maybe some fire prisms for harrassing all over the map and well, avatar or something. But if played correctly I dont see why you would want to go into MfW even in fights with several players, I just simply dont see any big gains compared to not going into Tier 3.


Any views?

[Skrag]

Why would you bother trying to split eldar into 3 tiers? They're different than marines and chaos marines. It's an attempt to pigeonhole that gains you absolutely nothing, because there are many differences, and very few similarities.

In fact, building the soul shrine is much more like a marine armoury than marine tier 2.

And if I'm not mistaken orks don't have 3 tiers either. Just two.

Or are you one of those people that thinks eldar need anti-vehicle infantry just because everybody else has it?

[dd77]

The only thing I'd put into "tier 3" would be the avatar, since he needs a butt load of research to get to.

[MFlash]

SpaceMarines & Chaos SpaceMarines: 3 Tiers due to their HQ building´s upgrades
Orks: tier? O_o erm every waaagh point on the scale is a tier
Eldar: 2to3 tiers... first tier the infantery, second the vehiles and perhaps third the avatar

[Parnassus]

Ok skrag who took a piss in your breakfast cereals?



I agree completely, I cant see three tiers in eldar, yet alot of people discuss them as having three tiers. I can see two, before and after MfW.

Now what I really wanted to discuss was this: Is there really a reason to research MfW? Personally I dont find anything that comes after MfW worth the money compared to the "Tier 1" units except, as I said earlier, a few fire prisms to cause a mess and maybe an avatar, but those points could still be better spent elsewhere.

[Skrag]

Nobody pissed in my cereal. You just sound like one of those people who scream "omfgwtf we don't have any anti-vehicle infantry!!!", without looking at the ways eldar DO have to counter vehicles, which are, IMO far superior to any of the other races' anti-vehicle infantry.

Eldar are different.

So are ork. (I guess really just one tier, it sounds like. I dunno, I've never played ork really)

By trying to treat them the same, you are doing yourself a huge disservice. And anybody who DOES discuss them as three tiers is simply wrong, and making the same mistake I'm trying to stop you from making.

And I couldn't answer your question about MfW, because honestly, I've only played 1v1s, and I've never researched it. My games end way before that would be an option, usually. I couldn't answer, so I didn't even try. I answered the part that I could.

[th3_p3nguin]

Is there really a reason to research MfW?

The upgrades after MfW arent really necesary and neither are the vehicles.

ok so after you reach youre inf cap you should just ignore building any vehicles, even tho it can almost double the effictivness of youre army?

[Zyn]

Well I guess if someone really wants to split Orks into three different tiers, it would be something like tier 1 being less than half Waaagh, tier 2 being from half to full Waaagh and third one after you upgrade to Orky Fort. Pretty pointless anyways imo doing that for Orks & Eldar.


For the original poster:

If you really don't see any reason researching MfW, then perhaps you should play some more (or maybe against some more skilled opponents). It just seems to me you want to play it a lot more simple & lazy by not building vehicles, even when the game drags on and on because it's more to micro and handle. Just learn how to play with them, one or two simple fire prisms add a crapload to the efficiency of your army when the prism cannons are used properly. Much more than probably any infantry squad with the same or even higher cost.

[DarkDarkDark]

In defence of Paranassus, i think what he was meaning by the fact that MfW isnt nexessary is because building loads of brightlance platforms with yield more results than fire prisms and/or wraithlords. I used to just build prisms and found they caused havoc to my own troops. After some experimenting I found that using lots of brightlances and maybe a few prism cannons yield better results, though i tend to use just brightlances these days.

I do find the level 2 armour and optics can be useful (especially the optics as it helps offset the accuracy defficiency when using fleet of foot), I find that i tend to research MfW so that i can eventually get an Avatar so i get more squad and vehicle cap, rather than actually building behicles from a Support Platform. I may build a few Warithlords with the extra vehicle cap so they can support my Avatar if the game lasts long enough. Remember, when you get an Avatar your squad cap goes up to 24, but with enough webways the vehicle cap can also reach 30. Granted, its rare that a game will last long enough to do this, or even utilise the full potential of the buffed up caps.

[Chris]

MOFW has no uses?

How about jumping prisms into enemy bases and sending their heavy weapon squads bouncing around?

How about jumping a howling banshee squad or seer council behind enemy lines with a falcon?

Yeah sure pure brightlances will be more effieicent at taking out tanks and buildings but eldar vehicles have more uses and are more flexible, which should always be taken advantage of.

[Parnassus]

I have my 5 stars and 1400+ rank on my eldar account so I have a few fights under my belt thank you. I just never find a use for whatever comes after MfW, the things before MfW deal with everything I get thrown at me perfectly fine. And tbh Skrag I dont understand wtf you are talking about, when did I ever complain about eldar or talk about the lack of some stupid ass anti-vehicle infantry type? Im trying to discuss how and if eldar should be talked about in tiers and the strategy about them and you go off about how im some sort of idiot which are set in some sort of view, which exactly the OPPOSITE of what im actually saying. Im also NEVER complaining about eldar, im doing the exact OPPOSITE of that two, Im saying that we dont even need to go into MfW because the stuff before that is all we need. So how about you learn to read and stop making shit up?

As far as inf/veh cap which someone mentioned, BLs count towards veh cap, thats all I need really. Its definately not about being lazy, I always do what is most effective, but factored into that is also the cost for MfW, support platform, research for fire prism etc. If you are constantly fighting I dont see why I should pause in my reinforcements or building effective troops which might be somewhat useful in the future, when I can just keep rolling with the excellent choices that are already available and win that way instead.


Now what Im interested in hearing is if and why people feel MfW and the units after it is necesary. Its a pretty big commitment in resources which imo are better spent elsewhere, unless you are having a long time where you are not actively fighting, and whenever you are not actively fighting you are doing something wrong.