3.00min: CL + PSMs + Horrors

[mjka]

Just a thought.
At the 3 minute mark (almost precisely) you can have your CL in a squad of PSMs, backed up by horrors, in your opponent's base.

This was done using the Valley of Khorne map vs SM, on insane difficulty. The computer died.

It does cripple your economy.

Build order:

Get a second heritic then a cultist:
- Build power then temple.
- Your cultist should be flagging points, closest ones first.
Temple completes:
- Build sacrificial circle.
- Build CL.
Sacrificial circle completes:
- Sell HQ.
- Build a squad of PSMs
- Build a LP.
CL completes (1:45 -- 2:00):
- Go exploring.
- Sell the temple.
PSMs complete (2:18):
- Stick the CL with them and attack.
- Build Horrors now.
- Overwatch PSMs.

Around 3:00 or shortly thereafter you should have CL + 5 PSMs + 5 Horrors in the enemy base. The income you have is barely enough to maintain the PSMs. (ie you're gonna be at most +36/+10).

I've only tested this against the computer, and only against SM on insane difficulty. If the CL dies, you're stuffed. So, you gotta get rid of their FC asap. Also, the computer didn't bother melee'ing my Horrors, which is pretty dumb.

Anyways, just a thought. Haven't tried it on humans yet. Will this evening.

[edit]

- Does work against humans, even if they know its coming.
- Does work against all races, except of course orcs. If you encounter orcs, don't sell your barracks (you will already have sold your HQ by the time you meet them). Its ok, you can still build an armory to get rocket launchers (which you'll need since you won't be getting vehicles anytime soon) and bolters.
- Haven't tested against entangle.
- If you're on any map other than Khorne, you'll need to skip on the LP. Coz the points are too far away and you cannot afford the LP. Don't worry, it still works.

[TheDeadlyShoe]

Neat, but if he's smart he'll ignore you best he can and sack your base.

[mjka]

Sack your base? Yes maybe, but you've got PSMs in his, which destroy building MUCH faster than, say, marines.

Then again, you've got to destroy a HQ and they don't...

I'd like to test who falls first. I'll post here when (if) I test.

[Guillaume777]

Just pray he isn't eldar or you are doomed.

/I like entangle

[Tarkas]

If they know what you've done you're screwed. Plasma generators are weak targets.

[yearofshorty]

that is a VERY risky move..but i LIKE it. one problem like the others said is if they find out that you are that vulnerable then you're in trouble but if everything goes to plan then it's pretty much an unstoppable rush.

[SureFoot]

Well in games where destroy HQ is a goal this BO is not an option... Also it's all-or-nothing, if you don't succeed at first you've lost

[thoth]

If you know this is coming, you can rush THEM with a faster force like scouts, but it _may_ work once against someone you don't know. Its very strong, since you have the PSM and hte horrors, which just rip apart anything thats in their way.

Anyway, matts a noob

[mjka]

Edits made to original post to include more details.

[RedCommissar]

As a SM, using the 4 scout build, I'd dance and take away your SP's... and melee your horrors with my FC. Seems that unupgraded PSM can't catch anything I send on a run! Also, if I can get a gen up I like to turret a LP...

Dunno if I'd win, but those're some thoughts on the matter. I'd like to see a replay for this though.

[Godling]

- Does work against all races, except of course orcs. If you encounter orcs, don't sell your barracks (you will already have sold your HQ by the time you meet them). Its ok, you can still build an armory to get rocket launchers (which you'll need since you won't be getting vehicles anytime soon) and bolters.

I thought rocket launchers were tier 2. If you have sold your HQ then that's certainly NEVER going to be an option.

[mjka]

I thought rocket launchers were tier 2. If you have sold your HQ then that's certainly NEVER going to be an option.

Oh yeah, my bad.
Yeah, so against orcs you've got no chance at all, coz wartraks'll gobble you up like a squiggoth does spaghetti. (messily?)

[SureFoot]

flat. Squig makes *flat* spaghetti (stomp, stomp...)

jokes apart, i'm not too fond of win-or-die strategies, too risky, any unexpected event and you're dead meat, also in team games you're not kind with your allies...

[BWKodiak]

Nice strat way to risky imo for a 1v1 game. If he scouts out your base ahead of time your done. Specially with no HQ to fall back on for support units

[apx]

This happened to me the other day, I tried to ignore it and sack his base the best I could the thing is like the man said the PSM work alot faster than the shooting marines do. The only problem with this build order is that if you do manage to hold off the PSM like you said your economy is fucked and its pretty much "follow the yellow brick road" to the other guy's base.

How are you going to know this is coming though? Thats what i'd like to find out......

[TheDeadlyShoe]

Okay, let me elaborate on 'sack the base'.

What you do is you take his points and destroy Lps. That will cut his resource flow to zero if the HQ is sold. You don't need to destroy the rest of the structures. Then you can wipe out the Possessed as needed. Meanwhile, spam heroes at home to harass.

[mjka]

Okay, I've read all your comments and been experimenting a fair bit, so I have made conclusions. These are written from the perspective of playing as Chaos:

(1) If your opponents tries to sack your base, ignore him. PSMs + horrors will kill him very quick. Or, you can chase him with the horrors.
(2) Turrets etc are useless.
(3) Against AI and crap micro-ers, you will always win.
(4) Against someone who is afraid of PSM, you will win. Because, your horrors will mop them up while they spend their time avoiding the PSM.
(5) If your opponent knows what to do, you will lose.

What to do:

Take out the horrors ASAP. Melee them is best, fire support, everything. Kill them. Once they're dead, do the annoying dance around PSMs and I (as the PSM player) pull out my hair saying "GARRRR there's nothing I can do!!!". The PSMs will probably destroy everything except the HQ, and will possibly do serious damage to the HQ, but once they're dead, game over.

Basically, if your opponent focusses on your horrors, you lose. Otherwise, you win

[Galdred]

Do you really need the HQ to be sold that early?
losing the +20 ressources soon must hurt

[Crazyjose]

How much req is gained by selling the HQ?

[Samsa]

Nice combo - I was going to try this combo but without the HQ sell.

[KungFoo]

The trick is to wait as long as possible to sell the HQ, although it is still necessary to sell it if you want to be in their base anywhere near the 3:00 mark (unless you do something like not build a CL, which removes any option of dealing with early scouting pressure and effectively prevents you from negating an enemy hero, so bad idea). What happens is that you'll need the resources from selling the HQ to build the sac circle as soon as the barracks complete, and you'll need the resources from selling the barracks to start the horror squad.

Anyway, within these build/time constraints you want to maximize your income as much as possible, which means having the powerplant and HQ up for as long as possible, and then having your units appear as quickly as possible after you sell them, so:

FL your first heretic down to a little over half life while building the power plant

FL off on both heretics while building the barracks

FL on until red life or almost no health (depending on whether you're playing on internet or lan) while building sac circle

Since speed is so critical to this strat, you'll want to pay attention to your base layout, too. You'll want to build towards to exit from your base (with the circle closest to the exit), since your CL will come out first and you'll want the PSMs to be able to get to the front as quickly as possible. Additionally, make sure that the point your cultists cap first will be the one closest to where your sac circle will ultimately go, since you won't have time to finish capping the second one before your heretics finish with your production buildings (and you'll want them to start building the lp as quickly as possible). Also, be sure not to start reinforcing your PSM squad until you've started building the horrors; there will probably be a few seconds of overlap after the PSMs come out before you can start the horrors.

A few tactical considerations:

I generally avoid attaching my CL to my PSM squad until or unless he starts taking heavy damage; I need the extra flexibility to limit the effectiveness of dancing. Alternately, attach him with the intention of removing him and charging a squad after someone starts dancing--possible to take someone by surprise when they have two squads and leave one standing still while running the other around. If there are multiple squads around and your CL starts taking enough damage that you have to attach him, be prepared to pop him out, get a few free hits in, and reattach if you see an opportunity.

Against orks, you're in a tough spot. A good player is going to either tie your PSMs up with his big mek while sending his sluggas in to uncap your LPs, or simply retreat into their base (if the initial conflict goes in a less-than-optimal way) and force you to fight under the cover of his buildings while teching to 'trakks. Unfortunately, this makes keeping your barracks and teching to armory+HBs of limited usefulness, as whatever the orks do to counter PSMs will not be fazed too terribly by HBs. Also, horror squads are not particularly effective against orks, since orks don't mind plasma so much, will be able to field at least as many squads as you, and wreck horrors in melee.

Most of the time using this strat, by the time I realize I'm up against orks, I'll have already finished my CL+PSMs and started on my horror squad, further limiting my options. I'll win the initial engagement against BM+sluggas, but be unable to capitalize on it, as the orks will retreat to their base, with plenty of covering fire from LPs+waagh banners. 5 PSMs is simply NOT enough to survive an assault on an ork base, even without heavy infantry combat; you'll be whittled down before you're able to finish the buildings. However, it is worth noting that ork buildings are particularly weak, and if you sufficiently increase the number of PSMs, you can take down a building or two without suffering any losses (again, ignoring ork troops here). So, what I've taken to doing is cancelling my horror squad and replacing it with a second PSM squad, which I set to rally just outside of the ork base. I'll keep my first PSM squad back around the entrance to the ork base, bottling him up while my squad size increases to at least 8, preferably more. At the same time, I'm using my cultist squad to cap any strat points out there, not really because I expect to win by strategic victory, but to try to limit the req discrepancy and *maybe* spook him into assaulting early. Around the time my second psm squad is completed, I'll move into his base with my first squad+CL and try to take out the nearest LP, with the sole intention of drawing the ork army out while I retreat and flanking them with my second PSM squad. Whether this maneuver succeeds or fails, I will immediately assault his base with both PSM squads on overwatch, going first for buildings that hurt me and can be destroyed quickly, and also count towards victory (boys hut, pile o' gunz), followed by buildings that can hurt me and count for victory even though they're tough (HQ), and finally generators (rationalizing that I can kill them even with reduced numbers of PSMs since I'll be suffering less fire at the time). My larger PSM squad will ignore all troops, focusing solely on killing buildings, while the smaller PSM squad focuses on killing buildings and any slugga squads hitting the building-bashing PSM squad. The CL gets the unenviable job of suiciding himself on the big mek squad--if I don't do this, the BM will knock my PSMs all over the place and I'll have exactly no chance of taking anything down. You'll also have to keep a close eye on the gretchin, since they're likely be running around buildng power generators like mad if the ork player feels he has a chance of losing.

Not exactly the most pleasant situation to be in, but at least it gives you a *chance* of winning, which is more than you'll get if he is able to tech up to tier 2 while you're struggling to rebuild your HQ. Although, I'm interested in hearing any alternate suggestions.

It's also worth noting that this will only really work on Valley of Khorne; any other map and the orks will be able to send out squads from other base exits and start uncapping your SPs/taking over the map/being generally annoying.

I really do like this opening, at least on small maps, but I'm a lot more comfortable with it if I have a good idea my opponent is going chaos, or eldar without an sc rush, or marines with something other than a four-scout build.

[SkullCrusher888]

Now THAT is a long post

[mjka]

Good ideas Mr KungFoo, esp. the separation of the CL from the PSMs to reduce dancing.

[bandersnatch]

how is this strat working now for ppl? i'd guess its not used very often by most because it is pretty risky. im curious as to what ppl are find in this BO vs other players in ladder 1vs1 matches.

[ChRoNiC]

i have been using this build order tonight and have found it quite effective. I played 10 automatch games tonight and won 7 of them.

2 of the games i lost were against orks was rushed quite early on and only had 1 cultist squad and force comander was half built. by the time i got my 1st possed marine squad out along came big mech and aloda other orks and i lost.

The other game i lost was against marines where i was the victim of an early scout rush.

I got some replays of it working but not sure how i post them on here?

[mjka]

Chronic -

You gotta post them in the Battle Archives and link from here.

What I would like to know is what your opponents did. Did they focus fire the Horrors, or did they try to take out the PSMs?

Haha too bad about the ork losses, not much you can do!

[Darkone_1]

Very nice build, but im thinking this would only work against a single player and not like a 3 vs 3 or 2 vs 2 match....

[ChRoNiC]

no they pretty much focussed on the PSM

i uploaded the replays have a look for yourself....

http://forums.relicnews.com/showthre...517#post670517

[ChRoNiC]

ive been using this tactic quite a bit and its quite effective against average players. However if you come up against a decent player who knows how to micro he can counter it quite easily with good dancing techniques :/

[bigjangin]

this strategy DESTROYS new to average players, but it takes some skill to defeat good players.

Some counters:

If they try to rush you or are exploring with a hero, or an early squad(sluggas). A good player will see you and try to dance. You have to try to ignore him and get to his base where he is forced to fight. When your horrors come out they will help greatly with dancing, and try to keep your cultists capping as many points as possible.

Ive found that if I can reinforce one or two psm's before any die I will usually win, but if one dies before I can reinforce one the strat will fail.

[Kael_Torin]

I dont like the idea of selling my Headquarters..ever..

But i like the idea of Rushing that fast at tier 2
I mean especially with only 3 minutes left

[bandersnatch]

ok using this BO, how do u fend off a 1 or 2 SM scout rush in the first 1:50 min of the game? the SM Scouts can out run cultists, Shoot while running, and the cultist (if they catch up) wont be able to kill the scouts fast enough while they are takig a point away from you. What would you do?

[TheDeadlyShoe]

Bandersnatch. Scouts cant shoot backwards.

[KungFoo]

Against a one scout... (rush? that isn't exactly a rush, more like someone, ahem, SCOUTing your base), toggle your cultists to melee and have them chase the scouts around until your CL comes out, hopefully preventing the scouts from killing your heretics.

Against a two-scout press, well, you lose if they show up after you've sold your HQ but before your CL is out.

If you get into a situation where your opponent shows up with a bunch of scouts and you still have your HQ, I'd seriously consider changing build orders.

[Darkone_1]

tried this strat works great, my bro and i are going to play together he plays orks and knows how to rush with them we will conquer all oppostion....

[mjka]

Darkone_1:

If you're putting this together with orcs, I'd recommend going for 2 squds of horrors and skipping the PSMs (they are the same price). The orcs have enough melee already, but the horrors will be able to decimate any attempts to dance.

[bigjangin]

ive been using this strat but I have problem with good ork players. They usually have 3 or 4 squads of sluggas by the time I get near their base. Sometimes I will downright lose the battle, or even if I win I lose to many units to destroy all the buildings in the ork base. This is playing at about the 1400-1600 level.

[bandersnatch]

no what i mean by a SM scout rush, is 1 squad (reniforced to 4) can rush into your base, uncap your points and cripple your econemy. this is going to prevent you getting horrors and PSM, as it can happen in 1:30 min of the game. Your cultist cannot catch up to them, as the scouts move very quickly and can reinforce faster than your cultists can kill them in CC.

[KungFoo]

Well, the thing is, it won't prevent you from getting PSMs at all; you pay for those by selling the HQ, not by any req gained from strat points. What it would do is prevent you from both getting horrors AND reinforcing your PSMs; you could still rush with a reinforced PSM squad and CL, but with no support likely anytime soon. However, if you are getting your points decapped that early, then you probably haven't sold your HQ yet, and might still be in the process of building your sac circle, which means your build order isn't exactly set in stone. You could cancel CL production, build a CSM squad and another cultist squad, and continue from there (although you will have ceded an economic tempus advantage, this is not an irrecoverable situation) with a more traditional anti-SM opening. The existence of an early plasma generator, especially, would lend itself to a defensive teching to raptors or plasma, given your current disadvantage in numbers.

At least, that's one thing I'd consider if/when I'm ever in that situation--haven't had to deal with an especially aggressive SM player while using this opening yet.

[Darkone_1]

yea thats what i do normally when i am going to rush a sm player.

[Mnemnoth]

Ok. Been testing with this strat and it works great. Haven't lost a single game since I started using it and it does work against Orks too if you get a bit lucky. Granted i don't play very high ranked games so the opponents might not be the best test subjects. The funny thing is that I think I just got accused of cheating. :hmm:

[*Eroes*]

I've tryed too, but seems to me an unfair strategy.
In fact I always apologize after this rush.

Moreover it's totally useless in 2vs2 or 3vs3, so it's not a good training either.

My opinion, of course

[[SLS]Xen]

Moreover it's totally useless in 2vs2 or 3vs3, so it's not a good training either.

Actually, if you skip the CL and make 2 PSMs, upgrade them and wait about a minute to attack, its essentially unstoppable. if you have a teammate doing the same thing (4 PSM squads...40 PSMs) enemy heroes are just no match. I faced 4 players using this strat last night...one of the 4 actually went to tier 2 and bought his upgrades. the rest rushed. 4 squads of PSMs met 4 full squads of SMs and 3 FCs and killed them all.

the new "F2" fix ironically makes it even more difficult to kill the PSMs because they can just keep engaging in CC. I was in a crater with a single PSM squad in CC w/ a 4 HB marine squad (3 scout sniper squads firing in) and still was reinforcing at the same rate that i was dying. my ally came in with 2 full squads of PSMs and it was all over.

oh yeah and in that game, my enemies knew what i planned in advance. we also rolled over an ork player. the craters on mortalis provided too much cover and his base buildings just couldnt beat us fast enough.

my question is this: is there a sure fire defense for this that does not leave you ridiculously exposed to a more conventional attack? becuae if there isnt, the natural progression will be everyone will do it and next you wont be able to play chaos the way you couldnt play eldar before the 1.1 patch. then they will nerf the hell out of PSMs, and i like PSMs too much for that!

[*Eroes*]

then they will nerf the hell out of PSMs, and i like PSMs too much for that!

I'm concerned about this too.

If this strategy is going to be prevalent, we can expect an incoming nerf of our PSM. And that would be really really annoying.

[Mnemnoth]

I don't think we have to worry about nerf to PSM just because of this. The strat is far from impossible to beat and once the people learn the counters it will be just one strat among many. I think it adds a little variety to the bog standard cultista+marines+CL rush which is good i think.

[[SLS]Xen]

Mnemnoth: post a recording where you beat it, if you dont mind, or just enlighten us. I havent seen it beaten yet and im skeptical

by beat it i mean reliably. its a risk strategy and so should NOT be successful more than 50% of the time...its akin to fool's mate in chess...or at least is should be. if its a newbie killer then thats fine, but i wanna see something that says you dont have to be say one race (orks) and you have to know its coming for sure because otherwise your counter-strat makes you die to something else. this is an RTS, not rock paper scissors

[KungFoo]

A space marine player who sends even one scout to your base right at the start will dominate this opening, without really damaging them much at all. I haven't really tried countering it with eldar or chaos yet, but I'll be doing some serious experimentation on lan today, and will post the results.

[JackieO]

There is no way PSM will get nerfed over a kamikaze strategy. As soon as someone sees this 1 or 2 times they'll be able to beat it every time. If you see a 10 man squad of PSM at 3:00 you know the guy sold his HQ, so he has two choices - go for your base and try to destroy it faster than you destroy his (which isn't going to happen, even with PSM) or go after your troops, which may get him a win but depends entirely on how fast he is able to kill you. If the other player can just delay the game 1-2 minutes he'll win almost everytime since he's gaining *at least* 20 more req than you.

I've messed with this strategy a few times, it seems folks who have never had to deal with it get really freaked out and tend to lose, but the guys who have seen it before or are smart enough to ignore the PSM and just go for your base will almost always beat you just by delaying you long enough to overwhelm you.

Of course this is assuming he doesn't just move a squad of scouts or CSM right into your base, in which case you're totally hosed.

[Mnemnoth]

Haven't got the reps cause I'm too busy using it myself :bandit:

But like has been said, it can be done. The key is to delay the PSM player long enough to bring big enough guns to kill them. This is best achieved by first killing the horrors and then just dancing. He can't catch you if you keep running away and if he ignores you, you can just stop running and shoot them. Sure it's hard to kill posessed but with that kind of income he ain't reinforcing them very fast so...The other method is to go for his base. Either way works just fine...

[JackieO]

If anyone wants to play me and try this strat let me know. I am not saying I will beat it 100% of the time, but I am confident I can beat it pretty reliably. You'll say "but you'll know what's coming!" to which I say, I promise to play exactly how I do in every rec I've ever posted.