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Homeworld, the real Kushans and Central Asian history

  1. #1

    Homeworld, the real Kushans and Central Asian history

    Not only do I feel that Homeworld has Bible references but also chock full of references to Central Asian history. I suspect one of the Relic members to be a history nut, especially in the arcane spagetti history of Central Asia.


    Kushans --- The most obvious is the Kushans, although now Relic seems to just want to call them Hiigarans.

    The original Kushans were members of the Yuechi tribe living south of the Gobi Desert, most likely in the Chinese province of Gansu, west of the Chinese imperial capital of Xian in Shaaxi.

    The Yuechi were a powerful tribe and the Chinese tried to recruite them to battle the Hsiong Nu from the Mongolian regions. The Hsiong Nu are better known in history as the infamous Huns.

    In response the Huns attacked the Yuechi and the Yuechi were driven out of their homelands. Thus began a long migration from Gansu north of the Taklamakan desert and the Tarim Basin in the present day Xinjiang region and over the Altai mountains, then down to Bactria which was called Tai-sha, now Afghanistan. They defeated the Sai or Scythians, as well as the last remaining Greek kingdom (descended from one of Alexander the Great's generals), to set up the Kushan Empire. The Kushan Empire extended all the way to Pakistan and northern India.

    Kushans fought alongside the Parthians against the Romans.

    Ultimately the Kushans fell to the Kidarite Huns (White Huns).

    Karan Sjet --- No surprise that many of the Kushan kings start with a "K" in their names such Kajula.

    Turan --- Refers to a region from the Altai Mountains to present day Kazakhistan. Includes Uzbekistan, Kajikistan and Khirghizatan. Of course, these are now populated by Turks. The Yuechi-Kushans, in their migration, traveled in some of these areas.

    Turanic raiders are a simple reference to the nomadic Turkish tribes in that region (Uzbeks, Uighyurs, Kirgiz, Kazaks, Tajiks, etc,) The Hsiong Nu, or Huns belong to the Turkish family. In their migration from Mongolia to Eastern Europe, the Huns travelled across the areas known as Turan.

    Kharak --- While an Indian name, I think it best refers to the Karakhoram mountain ranges that range from Xinjiang autonomous region (Chinese Turkestan) all the way to Pakistan.

    Kun Laan --- This sounds very much like the Kunlun mountain ranges which is south of the Taklamakan desert and Tarim basin. North of Tibet. To the west would be the Karakhoram mountains.

    Fal-Corum --- It's the "corum" part that interests me as it sounds like the "khoram" in Karakhoram.

    Clee-san --- "San" sounds like mountain in Chinese (Japanese kanji is san). For example, Kun Lun Shan. Clee-san sounds like Kun Lun Shan abbreviated to K L Shan.

    -sa --- In Homeworld, it's used as a suffix to denote leader, like Kiith-sa. -Sa sounds like Shah, as in the titular rulers for Persia.

    Diamat --- The Kushan ruling council, it sounds like the Diadochi, which are Alexander the Great's generals who rule and administered his empire after Alexander died. The Yuechi defeated one of the Diadochi ruling Bactria to set up the Kushan empire in Bactria.

    Khar Toba, --- I found Khar Toba to be interesting as a reference to a lost and ancient city in the desert. North of Gansu is the nearby Chinese province of Ningxia. There in the Gobi desert, the lost city of Khara-koto was discovered. Kharakoto was the capital of the Xixia empire, founded by the Tangut tribe. Genghiz Khan wiped out the Tanguts and laid this city to waste, utterly annihilating its occupants. In 1908, a Russian archeologist made a wonderful discovery of this lost city, recovering several inscriptions using the Tangut language.

    Taiidan --- It could refer to the Tai-shan mountain ranges or the Tai-sa, also known as Bactria which the Yuechi defeated. But I think it refers to the Han and Tang Dynasties. It should be noted that the Han Dynasty conducted systemic exterminations of various nomadic tribes who opposed them in their western territories. The Chinese have a love-hate relationship with the Turks, sometimes enemies, sometimes allies.

    Talas --- Battle of Talas. Arabs and Moslem Turks defeated the armies of the Tang and their Buddist Turkish allies. This defeat hastened the fall of the Tang Dynasty and decisively destroyed the Chinese influence over Central Asia.

    Vagyr --- Some refers to it like the Vikings, but it seems to be more like the Mongols. The Vagyr rose from the eastern fringes of the galaxy; the Mongols rose from the east. Like the Mongols, the Vagyr are normadic tribes, relying on speed and mobility. The Vagyr Crusade functions like a Mongol Touman or Horde.

    The Mongols, who were disunited and scattered, were united by one man named Temujin, better known in history as Genghiz Khan. Manaan seems to be the equivalent of Temujin. As they lack culture, both Mongols and Vagyr would integrate other cultures and technologies for their own, as well as soldiers from the people they conquered.

    The Mongols swept through Asia, conquering the Chinese and Turks. if we extend our analogies, the Vagyr conquered and assimilated both Taiidan and likely the Turanic Raiders along with them.

    Sajuuk --- I thought it sounded familiar. Sounded like the Seljuuk Turks that ruled the Middle East and was among the highlight of the history of the Turks. They however got ganked by the Mongols.

  2. #2
    Blackbird Interactive rob c's Avatar
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    fantastic!

    there's a few more hiding in there you didn't mention...
    ...and a few you did that we didn't intend!

  3. #3
    ISD
    Guest
    :clap: Whoa! Awsome man, you must be a history teacher or something.

  4. #4
    Frem
    Guest
    Nice

  5. #5
    justme
    Guest
    hey the Bentusi music is Hindi...

    as my "HW2 meets Bollywood" which got dleted showed

  6. #6
    Wrathof_Hiigara
    Guest
    WOW. Im Chinese-Australian and i thought I know something about asian history :jaw:
    Excellent work man, maybe you should wrtie a thesis or something about it.

  7. #7
    The Bentusi seems to me like the caravan traders of the Silk Route. In their travels they help spread culture---Graeco-Roman culture from the West to the East, and Sinitic (Chinese), Hindu and Iranian culture to the West.

    The thing that caught my attention is the way Homeworld makes abundant use of syllables like "Ka", "Kara", "Khor", "Khar", "Khara", which is very common for Turkish and Mongolian named places in Inner Mongolia, Gansu and Xinjiang.

    Examples of such places and peoples:

    Kharakhitai = capital of the Mongol Empire. Destroyed by the Ming to the ground and left as a lost city in the desert.

    Kharakhirgiz = A tribe of the Khirgiz people.

    Kharakhanid = A ancient kingdom located in the southern desert area of present day Xinjiang with its capital in Khotan, now called Hetian. This is between the Kharakhoram and the Kunlun mountains. At one time, the city of Khotan was under the rule of the Kushan Empire.

    Kharakhorja = Another ancient kingdom in southern Xinjiang, with its capital located in Gaochang. Like the Kharakhanid, Kharakhorja is founded by Uighyurs, a Turkish tribe.

  8. #8
    Elif Tymes
    Guest
    May I say something? To much time on your hands...

    Its KEWL though... Next time mom catches me playing HW, Ill tell her the Truth :-)

  9. Child's Play Donor  #9
    bones.. yes.. theBlind's Avatar
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    This is really good.
    I wish, I knew more, there“s so much out there... why must this work thing take so much of my time?

  10. #10
    Megas Menandros
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    Now the other side of the same story.

    Crobato must have recognised my nick for what it IS. The name of the greatest of the Diadochoi that ruled over Bactria and who occupied most of modern day India (that is why he was called Great, for having done, what Alexander couldn't)

    First things first, though. After Alexanders' death, there was a power grab. For more than 20 years, the Diadochi slugged each other out, until in 302 BC power spheres were finally formalised.

    Ptolemaios got Egypt.
    Seleykos got Asia.
    Lysandros got Asia minor (soon to disapear without a trace)

    And someone whose descendant was "Keravnos" got Macedonia proper.

    During the conquests of Alexander, a LOT of greek colonists from all the Greek states of the time came over to find a better future. It is a period known to Greeks as the Third Colonization.

    There were 3 destinations. 1 Egypt, 2 Babylon (Present day Iraq) and 3. Bactria-(Afghanistan-Northern Pakistan)
    Home of Alexanders' wife and mother of his son, (who was killed as a child to prevent his birthright).

    The Greeks loved to go there for many reasons. Its climate at the time was just as the one they left behind in sunny Greece (it is much more arid now). So, a lot of Greeks went over there.

    Another more obvious reason is that there were Greeks there since before Alexander. After a failed rebellion in what is now mediterranean Turkey (Ionia back then) some rebels were transported there. That is why present day Turks Call us Greeks "Yunan" for "Iones" - people of Ionia. They know us since before Alexander.

    When Alexander died most of the colonists wanted back. Reason? They didn't trust the diadochi. Their leader tried to form an independent state, and emerged victorious. His armies repeled Seleykides armies many times over. The descendant of the Bactrian crown was Menander the Great, which is to us Greeks Menandros o megas.

    By forming a formidable army and siege machines he successfully occupied 1/3 of present day india (while owning all of Pakistan and Afghanistan). After him, however the Greek flame faded. Civil wars erupted (at a time there were 30 Greek Kingdoms) and when the Khusan arrived, all was lost.

    Cultural references remain however. Bactrian Greeks were Bhudists, they made statues of Bhuda, (some were destroyed by the Taliban) and the tradition remains to this very date. Especially the posture of Bhuda in most Statues is like that of Ancient Greeks.

    Menandros is featured in some ancient indian stories as a great philosopher...

    And now the punchline. Khusan still exist today. In the northern mountains of Pakistan exists a tribe called Kalash, (maybe from greek word Kallistoi-the best) who worship the 12 Ancient Greek gods, drink wine (unlike their Muslim brethren) and talk a dialect that no-others have in the area. It was shown to be part Ancient Greek part something else... I am sure it has at least some Kushan elements. There is speculation about it though.

    Reason I know such trivial details, is that even if for most Greeks (and westeners) Alexander is a hero beyond myth, My own hero Is Menandros or Menander. Stranger in a strange land he won all he set out to win. I wanted to go to history classes and Menandros would be my thesis.

    Alas, I had to study something that would put food on the table so I became a lawyer. ( waits for the boos to die )

    Bacteria, means "walking stick" in ancient greek, which is what the infamous organisms look like (uner scope).

    Bactria or Baktriani is a geographical term meaning a land that encompassed Afghanistan and Northern Packistan.

    The last tidbit is that Kushans were reputed to be Indo europeans, and their graves in China seem to substantiate this theory. They were the most far flung of the Indo-europeans, their original area, near TIbet.

    Excellent thread Crobato, no wonder why so many names sounded familiar.

    What follows from now on is edited on Dec. 14 as to provide easier access to the links below. (Copy/pasted from an answer several pages down... Thanks)

    LINKS---->


    http://ancienthistory.about.com/cs/kushan/index.htm

    Some short info about the ANCIENT Kushan Empire.

    Map...

    http://www.hyperhistory.com/online_...t_n2/rome1.html

    Kanishka, Kushana empire's greatest emperor... 53 to 123 Ad.

    http://ancienthistory.about.com/gi/...
    hka.html

    (Some scolars think that their language was part slav-part chinese)

    Short history of Bactria, including its greatest leader Menander. A Greek kingdom which was subjugated to the Kushans approx. 130 BC. Kushans though, respected Greek law and religion. Their civilisation in fact was a amalgam, a mix of Indian, Chinese and Greek.

    http://www.infoplease.com/ce6/history/A0805685.html

    And Megas Menandros, or in English Menander, My all time hero...

    Timeline...

    http://www.american-pictures.com/ge...ns/per01641.htm

    Some info on his army (although some are conceptional...)

    http://www.fanaticus.org/DBA/armies/dba50ryan.html

    Some huge factfinding text about research in Bactria...

    http://ancienthistory.about.com/gi/...2Fbactrian.html

  11. #11
    Pooed Unit
    Guest
    Others that I found were:

    Hegira Hejira (Hiiagara) It means a journey to escape from danger. It refers to the flight of Mohummad from Mecca to Medina in 622AD and marks the beginning of the Moslem era

    Kadesh (Kadesh-Barnea; meaning "Sacred desert of wandering" ) A sacre city just North of Ancient Egypt in the land of the Hittites. The most remarkable thing about Kadesh that I can remember is that a Pharoah (I forget which one, I think it was Ramses II) planned to smite the Egyptian enemy the Hittites and the battle took place in this region. The Pharoah was met with overwhelming numbers of Hittites and was encircled by them. Just when the Pharoah's life seemed doomed, one of his generals summoned reinforcements and broke through the Hittite lines to rescue his leader. The Egyptians then gave the Hittites a spanking that led to peace and the first treaty.

  12. #12
    WouldBeSherpa
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    There is also a Kadesh mentioned in the Bible/Torah where the Israelites camped during their journey from Egypt to Canaan. While there, they sent twelve spies into Canaan to scout out the territory... when they returned, ten of the twelve advised that they give up on entering Canaan because the people already there were too powerful for there to be any hope of success. As a result, there was something of a rebellion against Moses and the rest of the leadership, with, apparently, almost all of the people wanting to stay there or return to Egypt (as a side note, for anyone familiar with the exodus story, this is the rebellion that leads to Israel spending forty years wandering in the desert). The parallel in HW is pretty easy to see... upon reaching Kadesh, the exiles are faced with a group of their own people who say that the enemy is too powerful and demand that they end their quest. I loved that one... great use of a Biblical/historical allusion.

  13. #13
    I thought of Hindu Kush equating the Kushan or something. Now I know why...

    In any case, I have my own: A great deal are just obvious:

    A great deal of people remarked that names of "Kharak" sounded like Karnak in Egypt, Kadesh another obvious one, Gehenna being the "place of fire"...

    Manaan may be ManannƔn, Irish sea god or just something that's only half-close?

  14. Child's Play Donor General Discussions Senior Member Homeworld Senior Member The Workshop Senior Member Forum Subscriber  #14
    Not wearing pants. reki's Avatar
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    From HWShipyards:

    "Faithful reader Komysar points out that the name "Vaygr" is an anagram of the Russian word "Varyg" or "Varyag" which means "Viking." Also, in the Old Icelandic (Viking) language, the word "vagyr" meant both a wolf, and a restless or a godless man. Appropriate to the "nomad barbarian" style of the Vaygr."

  15. #15
    Yes I know that stuff from the HW Shipyards.

    The name may be Viking but the the textual description of the Vagyr is much closer to the Mongols than the Vikings, right to the part of being nomadic, prefering speed and mobility, their Crusades, which is similar to the Mongolian Toumans, right to the description of the leader Manaan, who seems like Temujin, a man who united various tribes and turned their nation into a empire. The Vikings did not dominate in the way the Mongols did---who built the largest empire the world has ever known.

    Furthermore, the Mongols live in the same general area where the real world Kushans came from, very near the real world Turan which is the region next to Mongolia around the Altai mountain regions.

    When all the nomadic, turkish and arabic style music in HW1 and HW2 come into play, it's really hard for me to think Viking or anything ancient European. it's all the atmosphere of desert nomads battling in space. The sheer desolation and color of Homeworld's space is like a desert in 3D space. Note how the color of the HW suns resemble the setting of the sun in the desert. You don't see green or blue nebulas or planets like in Freelancer or EVE. HW space is the desert in space.

    one thing I didn't touch is the religious aspect. This region in Central Asia is very rich in religion. No less every one of the world's major religions have touched this area, from the Greek religion to Chinese Taoism to Hindu to Moslem to Zoarastism, Judaism to Buddism. Even Christianity with sects like Nestorism and Mannechiasm. And this is a region where people fought wars over what they believe. somewhat like the Kharakid backstory in the Homeworld manual. Thousands of exodus were made by people fleeing from persecutions of faith in their homelands to arrive in this region.

  16. #16
    Ancient Clan of Hex&Square yasotay's Avatar
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    Crobato,

    Thanks for one of the best threads in a couple years. Sadly the children of real Kushan are still in times of trouble.

  17. #17
    Yes sadly. If we look at the Kharakid history and then it is full of wars among tribes. After the Hiigaran homecoming, the Hiigarans still have their "Dust Wars" where the various Kiith turn on each other.

    It is like the Afghans or the Turks for that matter who turn on to each other in endless tribal internecine warfare.

    It is as if a member of the Relic staff who wrote the background histories for Homeworld is either intentionally or subconsciously reflecting the history of these peoples, the best times when they were united, and still dreams of such. The Kushans (the Chinese called them Kueh-Shan) is the one of the great highlights of Pakistan's and Afghanistan's history, also in culture and art. At the height of the Kushan Empire, it covered an area that included Pakistan, northern India, Afghanistan, and west of Xinjiang. Hindu Kush, Kharakhoram mountains, maybe even Kunlun mountains were under their control.

    If you note Homeworld is always filled with themes of unity, Kiithid being united for their epic task, and even the Vagyr being united from diverse tribes.

    Now going to something else I like to talk about warfare. Your typical Central Asian nomad, be a Hun, a Turk, a Scythian or Mongol, are all legendary horseback riders relying on accurate archery. Arrows is the ancient world equivalent to missiles. I like the metaphor like the Vagyr's reliance of strike craft and missiles being an analogy of the nomad's cavalry with archers.

    This is in contrast of the Indo-Europeans, who tend to rely more on large disciplined, well protected heavy infantry formations, analogous to capital ships. The Kushans were more of the latter, while the Huns were more of the archer/cavalry. If we recall also, the Turanic Raiders also used speed and missiles, although not to the full extent the Vagyr does.

    There are other nomad references in the games. The Nomad Moon in Cataclysm is one of them.

  18. #18
    Vaygr could also be based off the islamic empires...the bedouin tribes used constantly warr amongst themselves and basically were no threat, but when they united under the prophet mohammad, sound familar? they kicked some serious ass

  19. #19
    Originally posted by reki
    From HWShipyards:

    "Faithful reader Komysar points out that the name "Vaygr" is an anagram of the Russian word "Varyg" or "Varyag" which means "Viking." Also, in the Old Icelandic (Viking) language, the word "vagyr" meant both a wolf, and a restless or a godless man. Appropriate to the "nomad barbarian" style of the Vaygr."
    They're not totally godless. They believe in Sajuuk as well. Or at least, Makaan does or pretends he does to "inspire" followers.
    "In the future, I plan on taking more of an active role in the decisions I make." ~Paris Hilton

  20. #20
    Frem
    Guest
    why is it that the chinese have the totally cool history with emperors and mongols. all us white people get is some 30 year old jewish man that lived with his parents and got steaked to a pair of 2 by 4s
    well i find the european history a rather interesting as well.
    we have the great Bytzantium Empire, and the Roman Empire before that. we have the crusades, the mystical celts, colonization of america. i find it a rather interesting to read about the times before christ when all of our ancestors worshiped different kind of gods and when Elves and other nature spirits lived among the trees It doesnt seem so interesting to us europeans becouse we have heard about it all the time.
    Altough i must say that i feel sorry for our friends in america, they dont even have that much of an history

  21. #21
    Adrian Ng
    Guest
    They had an exciting 20th century.

  22. Modding Senior Member Homeworld Senior Member  #22
    Lurking as a lifestyle? IcePirate's Avatar
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    new research..

    Vaygr = Vijayanagar Empire of ancient India?

    story of the empire here

    More likely than the Viking theory, given the leaning toward obscure asian locales and peoples

    where's my cookie ?

  23. #23
    Steeldragon
    Guest
    Clee-san: sān means in chinese 3 (three), And if I'm not wrong, the clee-san was the third ship built by the kith somtaaw(coincidence?).
    I don't know what clee means, but maybe someone else does? There realy must be someone in the relic team who cares about asian history and language...


  24. #24
    SuccendoSLS
    Guest
    This is like the best thread ever. Kudos to all the smart guys.

    Sticky? Anyone?

  25. #25
    Megas Menandros
    Guest
    why is it that the chinese have the totally cool history with emperors and mongols. all us white people get is some 30 year old jewish man that lived with his parents and got steaked to a pair of 2 by 4s

    Funny you should say that. I feel that Greek History is the pre-cursor of Roman History, which leads to European history.

    Let's put it this way. If things were different in Marathon in 490 BC or the Persians managed to win in both Salamis and Plataie (when they both lost of them), right now, well, even the letters you would read would be different.

    So, :buddies:

  26. #26
    We'd still have our arab numbers...I hope.

  27. #27
    Beef
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    History is written by the victor, always remember that =)
    The largest part of the classic european culture (greeks, romans, egyptians etc...) were discovered and studied in the renaissance, they thought it was human culture at his best.
    They discribing the middle ages as a dark place without art nor technology. Modern American history is well ... modern, barely 500 years. While in euro-asia, we've been stabbing eachother's neighbours for the last few millenia.
    Myths, stories and especially very exotic history barely anyone knows can be a great inspiration source for modern day stories.
    Look at it this way, in the story-ecology, only the very good ones stood the test of time =)

    I think it's really great that relic used a look and feel of some part of the world that is often forgotten in modern literature and games. Especially now with mr B's cruisade vs big T.

  28. #28
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    Originally posted by Megas Menandros
    [i]Let's put it this way. If things were different in Marathon in 490 BC or the Persians managed to win in both Salamis and Plataie (when they both lost of them), right now, well, even the letters you would read would be different.

    So, :buddies:
    But not the language.

    Er, that is for the English-speakers... Germanic roots y'know.

  29. #29
    kimbo29
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    The name of the greatest of the Diadochoi that ruled over Bactria and who occupied most of modern day India.

    Funny, I took a history class about Hellenism many years ago, and Menandros was never mentioned. At least I don't recall him being mentioned. The class primarily focused on the rise and fall of all the major satrapies, down to Cleopatra, but I guess Menandros wasn't "Hellenistic" enough to find his way into the class.

  30. Technical Help Senior Member Modding Senior Member Homeworld Senior Member  #30
    www.relicnews.com ÜberJumper's Avatar
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    Tanis = Resting place of the ark of the covenant.

    Gehenna = A place where the wicked are punished after death.

    Bridge of Sighs = A bridge in Venice (there's a couple others as well around the world) reportedly (and likely fictionally) named for the sighs of the prisoners passing from the court to the prison beyond.

  31. #31
    SandPiper
    Guest
    A small bump

    Tiamat was a enormous dragon who personified chaos. She was destroyed by the young Assyrian god Marduk and her body became the earth and sky, and her tears became the Tigris and the Euphrates.

  32. #32
    komninosm
    Guest
    Yay anothe Greek!
    Hey Menadre I get the feeling you don't live in Greece/Hellas though. Or am I wrong. Anyway I'm in Patras for that matter for University...

    On the subject of this thread HW is quite obvious influenced by middle east culture just like Dune or maybe in a different way.
    The spice must flow.
    The sleeper must awaken.

  33. #33
    Murka
    Guest
    Most SHOCKING (from the good meaning)
    thread ever...
    i was reading it with my mouth open
    (oops my mouth's open now too) *closes mouth*
    *the mouth opens again**closes mouth**the mouth opens again* FRIGGIN' MOUTH
    CLOSE CLOSE !!! *SPANK* *LOUD CRACK*
    *mouth is closed*
    whew...
    ok I LOVE Games that refer to history
    because im hebrew(Israeli) and i love to see that you remember us in games too :P

  34. #34
    Murka
    Guest
    Gehenna is also (in Russian) a corpse eating animal that lives in africa in the savanna (i cant remember it's name) aniway it looks like a dog
    and THE FIRE GEHENNA is (in Russian) a Gehenna that tortures bad people in hell - much like HELLFIRE in english

  35. #35
    We've known about the Middle Eastern influence for a while...Kharak is a desert, and there's some funny middle eastern musik in homeworld 2 when they discuss that "Sajuuk is real". There's some other stuff I do not have time to remember off the top of my head. The early Kharakid history sort of makes you think it's Dune without the worms and the spice melange and so on.

    Otherwise, has the name Taiidan been nailed down, or are we sure the name was pulled out of a hat?

  36. #36
    Blackbird Interactive rob c's Avatar
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    Hey Uber - an italian in Venice told me the Bridge of Sighs was named after the sighs of the women who would gather to see thier loved ones pass over the bridge. It was the last time they would see them before execution.

    I've asked around but no-one can remember how we came up with the name Taiidan. No-one's even sure who did, though I think it was Aaron Kambeitz. He doesn't remember either.

  37. #37
    Megas Menandros
    Guest
    @Komninos,

    ...but I do live in Athens, Greece.

    PatrasU. is one of the best technically speaking.

    Now, back to the business at hand. Playing a game inspired by old history in a land forgotten by time, is well fascinating to say the least.

    As for Megas Menandros (the original) ruler of Bactria, well, I REALLY can't understand why he isn't more known, as in his time he was touted as the one who surpassed Alexander, for he succeeded where Alexander had failed. (In conquering India).

    But, then, his empire was multi-lingual, his Greek people were mostly Budhists, and his empire was divided in warring counties after he died. So, for some, he wasn't Greek enough.

    He is and will remain, probably the great unknown Hero, the first westerner who conquered India (Alexander being the first who invaded it)

  38. #38
    Wirlwind
    Guest
    yes and in HW2 when the keepers show up for the second time and say something like "we are the gaurdians of Abassid", Abassid was the second muslim dynasty to gain power after the first 4 caliphs died.

  39. #39
    Monty Block
    Guest
    Sticking this thread because it's so golly-gee amazing.

    Amazing detective work!

  40. #40
    komninosm
    Guest
    Maybe the progentors, the bentusi, the higarans and all the rest are simply humans evolved from they scattering in Dune

    Geia sou re mega menadre LOL

  41. #41
    Silverknight
    Guest
    Please please please stop comparing HIIGARANS with humans:vikingb:

  42. #42
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    Er... it's not like "Hiigaran" describes a seperate species of animal.

  43. #43
    Murka
    Guest
    Maybe its just some vegetables fighting over their HOMEBOWL

    SERIOUS PEOPLE --- STOP COMPARING GOLD TO RUBBISH
    LETS CONTINIUE THE MAIN TALK - ABOUT THE HISTORY

  44. #44
    komninosm
    Guest
    After a million years of evolution even the humans would not look human.
    Though I like my Dune analogy I must admit that I prefered to think of Kushans (from black and white pictures of kiith council in previous HWs) humanoid but more LIKE Protoss in Starcraft. The move Relic did to portray them as humanlike wasn't to my liking.
    Also I thought of other races as different too. The Turanic were of various alien forms (with their liquid enviroment ships and all) and the Bentusi were the ships. The ships were alive in a sense (or their central command core) with the will of the Bentusi (like some firstones in Babylon 5).

  45. #45
    silverace99
    Guest
    um, this is off-topic but earlier Crobato mentioned a "dust wars" that occurred between the kiithid after they returned to Hiigara. I don't remember hearing about this in any of the three games or any documentation. help anyone?

  46. #46
    saeble
    Guest
    heh....

    A couple lil pearls of wisdom you may do with as you wish....

    Its not uncommon for game developers, in fact anyone in creative fields to develop what I call 'post-cognition' ie.. when a fan or fanboy comes along with an intelligent and very plausible piece of background data to thier work they suddenly get a flash of 'memory' and say "Yeah... yeah thats right... suddenly I remember that..." George Lucas is prolly the best guy for doing this, TIE fighters for instance didn't have a name till the fans gave it one. Any developer who claims they 'thought of everything' is a liar..

    Secondly, a good game is ten times as deep as it is wide, in fact anything that has a story needs depth. Put it this way, I'm sure everyones familair with Lord of the Rings and Tolkien... the guy wrote a short story about Middle Earth... and 3 times that much in backstory and 'history' for all of Middle Earth, even when its not even slightly mentioned in the main 'book'. It's one of those things that defies logic, how one can percieve how 'real' and 'full' a universe is when all you really get is one thread in a thousand in the same rug/story. Tolkien even generated a language, Elvish, based on Archaic Finnish.

    On another general note, I like the fact that the Hiigaran or more accurately in this instance Kharakites (?) is this. Climate is often a big determinate factor in the culture of the people in residence. Spitting out vowels and consonants when its hot, shapes a language, and in turn, a culture. Kharak is very easy to say when your throat is dry, in fact omatapaically (my new word for the day), it sounds like someone is trying to get some sand off the back of thier tougue.

    Listen to Welsh people and you think of rain and water and bogs and more rain...

    Listen to an Aussie drawl... all the words run together so as to not waste any energy you could use keeping cool...

    Inuits sound cold all the time.

    Just my perception ?

    Keep climate in mind next time you listen to a language or an accent.

    One other thing... if the Relic team really want to impress... some of the ingame radio chatter should be some sort of really cool Hiigaran Kharakite oaths... which sound Middle Eastern/Asian...

  47. #47
    saeble
    Guest
    ..oh yeah...

    I forgot to add...

    if a culture spends long enough in space... as a space faring race

    what will the effects of cold hard vacuum, tight enclosed spaces in ships, respirators and so forth have on language and on the resultant culture ? Pilots for instance used to and I assume still do speak differently when they use a throat mike, (direct contact mic. rather than an 'air mic).

    we've already adopted many changes to our languages in the wake of technology, the way digital communication alters/enhances/corrupts the way we speak and listen. I wonder what sort of history a genuinely space faring race like the Bentusi would write

    sorry if everyone feels this is OT, I think its more a broadening of the subject

  48. #48
    Cows & Guns Vaarok's Avatar
    Join Date
    Sep 2001
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    I cannot recall the exact meaning, but IIRC, Balcora has some deep celtic meaning. I think it meant something about a barrier maintaining the separation between mortals and gods.

  49. #49
    Member Kushan_Pilot's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2002
    Location
    College Station, TX
    Incredible...

  50. #50
    saeble
    Guest
    why did this thread get undocked ?

    Aint it one of the best ?

    What happens to a culture in space is of keen interest to me and I would assume a goodly portion of the peeps here...

    Anyone got any perspectives to add ?

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