[Ladder][1vs1] Ork Rushing

[Navaros]

Map: Outer Reachers
Players: Zoltron6 (Ork) vs. Navaros_Owns (SM)
Win Conditions: Default
Game Duration: 2:00

as you can see from this replay, my enemy was able to get out 3 Slugga Boyz squads and a Big Mek by the time all i had was two scout squads. things just went downhill from there

to me this suggests that Ork is overpowered in the early game. at least, on certain maps

any feedback would be appreciated on how i was supposed to "counter" that crap when i didn't even have time to make any units to counter with

[SubZero]

If its any consolation, I encountered the same rush, but managed to defeat it with 2 x guardians and 1 x Warp spider, with only 2 Spiders remaining ! >.<

[Navaros]

i'm glad you defeated it but no it's not any consolation cuz Guardians are a lot better vs. Orks than Scouts are AFAIK...so i was even more handicapped than you were since i was SM

[Chris]

The only thing your replay proves is that you don't build enough scouts.

I could quite easily make a similar replay and only build 2 slugga squads with orks and then say <insert race here> in overpowered because he has more troops than me, but that would obviously be stupid.

You didn't even try to fight him, you just quit out which was pretty lame. How the hell do you expect to get better at something if you don't even try.

If you'd had more scouts and maybe a marine squad instead of a FC (debateable) you would have had more chance of fighting the rush off. Keep dancing the orks round and round until you get an LP upgraded, which shouldn't have been an issue since you built an early power generator.

[Navaros]

there is no room to micro properly on that map, in case you hadn't noticed

i highly doubt getting a SM squad in lieu of my FC would have helped... especially since he had a Big Mek

i don't think have 4 scout men firing at him would have helped too much either

[Kalevispetke]

You should have continued.

Building the early power IMO is the first step in stopping this rush. You have to do it to get the juice for the first LP turret. You had a listening post under construction which could have been turned into a turret.
The difficult part is that you would have to make the orks run after you around the map until the LP turret is complete. And after that, play ring around the LP and shoot the orks if they attack the turret and run away if they attack you but try to stay close to the turret. This is how you can take down sluggas, the LP turret is just as good as a HB. Its very difficult since theres very little room around the sps on this map. It takes some careful microing but I think it can be done

You can practice this rush playing against the Orks in skirmish Insane difficulty. They always come at you with almost the same rush.

I haven't played against human ork players using this rush so my advise might not fit, sorry.

[Chris]

i don't think have 4 scout men firing at him would have helped too much either

If you had 4 scouts, you could have used 2 to cap and 2 to harass, maybe killing a sluagga boy or 2 or you could have used all 4 to cap points giving you a bigger resource income. By only building 2 scouts you are throwing away the biggest advantage marines have early game.

You can still micro as long as you don't fight directly in the middle. Just because it's harder doesn't mean it can't be done.

The reason I think a marine tac squad would have been more useful is because sending your FC against BM+sluggas with only scouts as backup would have been suicide for your FC. If you'd had marines you could have still shot a few orks as you danced around.

[tholis]

lol @ Navaros.

u should change the name of the replay to lame Navaros.zip

HAHAahahaha u quite the game before you even engaged him. you had an fc out already and 2xscouts and you caped 3 SP already.

You should have danced the orks with the scouts and get out an SM Squad and make a turret on one of your LPs.

That might have not saved you but you would have tried it and get some experience for the next uber ork rush.

If you dont practise how are you going to learn to counter the ork rush.

[ThundaHawk]

Yeah, seriously. Why quit?

[Navaros]

i didn't feel like giving points to a lame rusher. i saw that i could not win with any amount of micro because what he had was inherently vastly stronger than what i had

since he wanted to be lame with me, i spit it right back in his face by quitting.

there was no point in me "trying" because my forces losing was inevitable

[SubZero]

Like Chris saidly earlier, you should have stuck it out and seen what you could have achieved.

You won't learn if you don't experience/practice - Who cares about your rankings, once you are totally competant you can dominate the ladder on a new account.

[Navaros]

au contraire

i already had enough experience to know that my forces could not have won that rush, hence i made the decision to quit

if i thought it would have been a fair fight, then i would have fought him

[Mad Hamish]

Upgraded LP is NOT!!!! equivalent to HB-Turret:

Not unless it was changed in the patch.
These are the old values extracted with Vertigo's scripts

Marine HB-Turret:
Range: 30.00
tp_commander 22.66
tp_infantry_heavy_high 46.20
tp_infantry_heavy_med 47.12
tp_infantry_high 45.82
tp_infantry_low 41.23
tp_infantry_med 54.54
tp_monster_high 3.25
tp_monster_med 45.82

LP Upgrade 1: (storm bolter)
Range: 25.00
tp_commander 13.08
tp_infantry_heavy_high 33.33
tp_infantry_heavy_med 40.80
tp_infantry_high 33.06
tp_infantry_low 23.80
tp_infantry_med 37.78
tp_monster_high 4.86
tp_monster_med 39.67

LP Upgrade 2: (heavy bolter)
Range: 35.00
tp_commander 28.33
tp_infantry_heavy_high 72.22
tp_infantry_heavy_med 88.40
tp_infantry_high 71.62
tp_infantry_low 51.57
tp_infantry_med 81.85
tp_monster_high 10.52
tp_monster_med 85.94

So apart from more resources, a HB-Turret is more efficient than the
upgraded LP much more dakka dakka

[ceejayoz]

i didn't feel like giving points to a lame rusher.

if i thought it would have been a fair fight, then i would have fought him

So, to avoid being a "lame rusher", you decide to be a lame disconnector... which is worse!

It would seem your definition of a "fair fight" is one in which the other guy isn't better than you. Honestly, if you don't want to play rushers, the ladder is very much the wrong place for you.

[Shorn]

It cracks me up whenever I hear about unfair rushing tactics. First its the orc rush, then its the scout rush, how about the chaos rush, and oh my lord even the bonesinger or seer council rush(I've never heard of a guardian rush, though there might be one).

With all this complaining it amazes me that it never occurs to anyone that every race has a rush.

If every race has a rush, then that means that every race is capable of coming up with a competitive number of units very early in the game. With the possible exception of the Eldar(now that seer council had been nerfed). But Eldar doesnt need rush units, because everyone already complains about how powerful their hard counters are.

The fact is, if a rush kills you, you probably failed. There are probably people out there, that are so damn good that you never had a chance at beating that rush. But it's not because your army is weak, its because you were so unbelievably out matched in playing skill.

[Caladbolg]

Well said Shorn.

Seriously though ... leaving the game early is really not going to help you at all, and saying your not going to give into a 'lame rusher' is even dumber. If you can't deal with the heat get out of the furnace... or something like that. The point is, if you can't deal with rushes you aren't playing the right game.

[Navaros]

So, to avoid being a "lame rusher", you decide to be a lame disconnector... which is worse!

your opinion, not mine. it's much more lame to rush in the first couple of seconds than it is to quit.

besides, most people quit as soon as they realize they are gonna die after a long fight - now that's lame!

@the guy who said i was outplayed: then lets see you stop an Ork player with that exact rush on that map whilst you are the SM player. if it can be done, let's see you do it before you start making comments that you haven't backed up

[Shorn]

your opinion, not mine. it's much more lame to rush in the first couple of seconds than it is to quit.

If you don't lose to a rush, it just becomes the first conflict in a longer battle. Stop losing to rushes, and you won't have to worry about a game lasting more than a few seconds.

Define exactly why you think it is lame, and maybe you might have a case. Just saying "it's lame" is a meaningless statement without reference.

besides, most people quit as soon as they realize they are gonna die after a long fight - now that's lame!

Agreed

@the guy who said i was outplayed: then lets see you stop an Ork player with that exact rush on that map whilst you are the SM player. if it can be done, let's see you do it before you start making comments that you haven't backed up

My playing skill is not a factor. I could be the most horrible player in the world, who couldn't beat a grot with a dreadnought, and my point would still stand. An orc rush is not a hard thing to implement, if it was a powerful as you say it is, no one would ever beat the orcs. But it isn't, and they do.

I get outplayed all the time, I just except responsibility for my loss and work to get better.

[Navaros]

My playing skill is not a factor.

if you are going to say: "get some more playing skill because that rush is not overpowered" - which you have said - yet at the same time you can offer no evidence that this particular rush can be fairly beaten on this particular map; then yes your playing skill is indeed a factor. if you have no hard evidence to back up your statement, then your statement has little value.

[MasterT]

Good point there shorn,yes ever race can rush,but i do really fell that ork rushes are the worse...but way way far from over powered.
A good idea,as some people already said,is just to build a Turret and you're pretty much immune to an ork rush..that's of course a Turret + Force commnder and a group of sm,yep with those you should easily be able to hold off anything early off. :fight:
If i were u i whould then build another group of sm and an armoury,build some heavy bolters and go get some green ass.
a good tactic is to advance by waves,1 group going forwerd while the other 1 providing cover fire. I must say that you also build way slow and go no fighting skilles,trying not to flame but still..
Cheers

[General Grog]

You have got to be kidding me! At first your hyperbole had me worried, but after watching the replay, you quit after only 1-4man slugga squad and a BM come after u?

Gimme a break.

[Navaros]

You have got to be kidding me! At first your hyperbole had me worried, but after watching the replay, you quit after only 1-4man slugga squad and a BM come after u?

actually, there was two of them and a Big Mek at me right there and a lot more to follow shortly after as necessary, i'm sure

[ceejayoz]

Navaros, you're coming off as "if I can't do it, no one can" which is a bit of an egotistical sounding position.

Had you played this person before and known he wasn't as good as you? If not, he could very well have just been a superior player.

[Navaros]

Navaros, you're coming off as "if I can't do it, no one can" which is a bit of an egotistical sounding position.

how i meant to come off was: those who can only do the same as me or worse than me and who can offer no specific advice should not be commenting solely to say that i need more skill.

i am quite open to be corrected by better players. that has not yet happened in this thread, however. the only things that were said are "get more skill" or to do things that wouldn't really effectively stop this rush

i even took one poster's advice and tried playing this map with the same races vs. Insane AI and i can't figure out how to beat that either. i tried a bunch of times with various builds, and none of them worked.

so there's a challenge for you guys. take the Outer Reaches map and SM vs. an Insane AI Ork, win, and then post the replay in this thread of you winning. that would rock

[Perfect_Weapon]

As requested - I didnt play so well, but still won

Game length just shy of 30 mins

[Perfect_Weapon]

Be warned - even a mediocore player is vastly better than the AI though after the first 5 minutes - the only thing the AI can really train you to do is halt an early rush - after that it is just dumb - for instance in another game "Harder AI" using eldar made dark reapers to combat my 30+ orks eating its base O_o

[RetroBooster]

Another replay as requested. (16 minutes)

I haven't played DoW in a week or so, despite that Insane AI really isn't a challenge. Sorry if it's a bit messy, I tend to get a little rusty when I don't play for a while. Obviously this game should have been over with in 10 minutes, but I was slacking.

Hope it's some use to ya, but I doubt it, there's nothing really intresting or impressive about it. (Like most matches vs AI)

Edit:
After watching your replay here's my analysis (didn't exactly take much time seeing how the game only lasted 2 minutes).

Game starts:
Servitor sits still for 6 seconds before constructing CB.
Scouts pop out of HQ but the rally point isn't set, they sit still for 3 seconds. Scouts go off to cap first SP.
Servitor pops out of HQ again 3 seconds delay due to no rally point. Servitor helps building barracks.
Barracks done at 0:46 (I might note that if you do a perfect build using 1 servitor for the barracks only, it can be done at 0:44, so basicaly your extra servitor was no use and you didn't get the scouts out sooner instead).
Barracks starts building FC at 0:50 (I think I no longer need to point out all these seconds lost add up to quite a bit?).
You immediately queue up the first SM squad as well, instead of waiting until the FC is almost finished, allowing you to invest the req elsewhere until that time comes. (for example by building LP's sooner and building an extra scout squad)
At 1:07 your servitors start building a PG, consuming 165 req and inevitably delaying the construction of a second squad of SM (or reinforcements for the first one), that's a big gamble right there. Especialy since you don't have enough scouts to provide any kind of fire support for your FC.
Around 1:10 your first scout squad runs the wrong way, stands around for a bit and then goes after another SP, not too big a deal, but still around 20 seconds lost there.
At 1:36 your servitors both head off for the far SP, while instead you should have built the close one first and as soon as the req was getting close to 100 again, you should have sent 1 of the servitors off to build the second LP.
The FC pops out at 1:48 (a bit late due to all the delays obviously).
At 2:00 the 2 servitors finaly start building your first LP, you then leave the game holding 2 SP's halfway to capturing a third, with only an FC and 2 squads of 2 scouts.

My game obviously wasn't top notch since I have been out of the loop a for a bit, but lets compare...

My first scouts pop out at 0:14 and start capturing the first SP at 0:20. Your scouts popped at 0:19 and capped at 0:32.
The barracks is done at 0:47 and starts building a squad of SM at 0:50, just as fast as yours except I used only 1 servitor.
The first LP starts building at 0:55. (obviously I didn't build a PG)
At 1:18 my first squad of SM's pops out of the barracks and the FC starts building.
At 2:00, I hold 4 SP's and I am capturing 1 SP and 1 Relic, I also have 2 finished LP's and 1 LP halfway built, I have 3 squads of scouts and 1 squad of SM's.
At 2:14 my FC arrives, well before his Mek can pose a serious threat, having captured over half of the SP's (5) and built LP's on 4 of them I can call on the FC, a squad of SM's and 3 squads of scouts to hold off (dance) the rush. Knowing that a second squad of SM's will be done in around 30 seconds.

I'd say that's a much more defendable situation, even against a human player. (I hope my replay shows how utterly stupid the Insane AI really is)

So my advice, work on your efficiency, pick a more defendable build order, work on your dancing and when you get that down, don't give up so fast.

[ceejayoz]

Thanks for the indepth analysis, RetroBooster!

[Cris89]

Tsssk, you can't even defeat a little ork rush. You shouldn't be playing Dawn of War if you can't take this.

[Chris]

Well I thought navaros had made the least informed posts in this thread but cris89 just won the prize. Congratulations.


Just played a marine player who like you, only built 2 scout squads. He didn't build a generator straight away so he had a bit more req to spend on marines but the fact was it didn't matter because my 4 slugga squads managed to cap my points first. This is really pretty bad because space marines should always be the first to cap their points. He also didn't push me until about the 5 minute mark by which time I was building my mek shop. Once my first trakk came out he was screwed.

More scouts = more points = more req = bigger/better army = you win.

[Shorn]

This:

Well I thought navaros had made the least informed posts in this thread but cris89 just won the prize. Congratulations.


Just played a marine player who like you, only built 2 scout squads.

In response to this:

Tsssk, you can't even defeat a little ork rush. You shouldn't be playing Dawn of War if you can't take this.

I don't ge it.

And as has been shown, my playing ability had no factor on my observation. I know that there are people who can beat it, I don't have to be able to beat it myself. In fact I know I am going to dl those replays to help out my game.

[Chris]

I don't ge it.

Basically I was trying to be polite and not resort to calling cris89 a complete moron. Saying you should not play Dawn Of War because you can't beat an Ork rush is a totally retarded thing to say. I think I have a pretty good grasp of the game but I can still struggle with the Ork rush.

[peturabo]

He had what?

12 slugga boyz and a bug mek. Christ man they were tiny units you cud of easily danced and killed them and with the FC stunbug still available he would of pawned that big mek.

I hate people that quit i always see the battle through unless they are in my base destroying it and i have no req.

You claim to be an experienced good player. Prove it and show us a replay where you can defeat an Ork rush or do you just moan and quit out.

If uve seen select selects replay gainst Iron clad(Sorry ironclad) He dances his guardians around to stop them getting points. A scout rush would of take them down really easily meesa thinks.

Dont be a sore Navaros, that guy was polite to you and yet you show him disrespect.
Besides what was you doing you had 2 scout squads and an FC at the end god man it took you forever.

Sorry if ive broken any forum rules but i personally think you need an attitiude change Navaros, just my opinion though.

Cheers

[SubZero]

Only the people who play night and day , who live for DoW can cope with every rush and tactic.

Everyone else, is left with a mediocre knowledge and slim chance vs a new type of rush.

For me, i lost my first Ork game post-patch simply because i hadn't played vs Orks for over 2.5weeks. Doesn't mean my thoughts + Opinions suck, or that I suck at DoW.

[Shorn]

Oh I get it, the scout part confused me because he hadn't said anything about scouts

Truthfully whether you live through any rush is all about how good you are, and how good the other guy is. The rush is just like the rest of the game. A rush tactic is only so good as the player doing it, so all orc rushes are not equal. Just the same as defenses.

[RetroBooster]

Ceejayoz: Thanks for the indepth analysis, RetroBooster!

Thanks Ceejayoz, glad to see someone bothered to read all that, would have been nice to see some more responses on it.

Only the people who play night and day , who live for DoW can cope with every rush and tactic.

Everyone else, is left with a mediocre knowledge and slim chance vs a new type of rush.

As I stated earlier in this thread I haven't played DoW for like a week, which clearly indicates I don't live for it I'd say...

I can tell you when it comes to countering rushes you don't need to live for DoW to survive the latest variation, infact 95% of all rushes comes down to the same basic skill/knowledge, which I could teach any new player to a decent extent in an hour or so.

The skill/knowledge I mentioned is: An adequate build order (not using an optimal or near optimal BO for your race is obviously asking to lose) and the abillity to micromanage your early troops properly, which simply requires a small ammount of knowledge about the strength and weaknesses of the DoW units and some practice. There's really not that much you need to "KNOW" to stop a rush!

There's usualy around 3 types of units involved on your side and 3 types of units on the enemy side, if you know their purpose (strength/weakness) and you can manage your troops to exploit your strengths and their weaknesses, you will beat the rush, it's that simple.

If you read my earlier post and look at my replay, you'll find one of the optimal SM build orders. Which, provided you posses the other skills/knowledge mentioned above, should work fine against most races. (for the first 3-4 minutes that is)

[Navaros]

Truthfully whether you live through any rush is all about how good you are, and how good the other guy is

i strongly disagree with the use of the word "good" here. as Retro has proven, "good" in DoW basically boils down to knowing how to optimize your BO to the fullest extent (via memorization). at least, that is the case in the first few minutes. i do not believe that amounts to "good". it does not take skill to memorize a BO.

btw can you guys please stop telling me to "dance" in this thread; it's an eyesore. use the word "micro" please. i hate when people say for me to "dance" - thats sounds 'gay' IMO

FYI the reason my first servitor was idle for so long was because i was ALT TABBING to see what race my enemy was. guess i'll have to change my tactics to ALT TAB a lil bit later on

thx for the input, Retro. it was most appreciated. i shall study it and your replay

[LoRd KoRn]

thats the lamest replay iv ever seen;
you will never learn how to conter when you disconnect on first view of the enemy