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you've nver used raptors? How on earth do you beat SM?
Most of my 1v1 play has been against SM: I play LAN because the time zone diff (i live in NZ) makes internet play limited and i have a crap connection.
relying on CSM falls apart when facing ASM's so i usually build like this against SM:
Barracks
Cultist
Cultist
Heretic
CL
Generator
Armory
Raptors
CSM
Raptors
with LP's sprinkled liberally in that build.
Tried raptor rushes a few times. Wasn't impressed with the raptors themselves.
As for SM, I use
Heretic force labour on Barracks
2nd Heretic force labour on barracks
Cultist and cap point
Cultist and cap point
CSM (used to build CL but not anymore) reinforce a little and cap point
CL
CSM + CL go on reacon.
Build another CSM and build many LPs + one generator.
Armory
Buy bolters if facing Eldar or Orks.
-Revising strategy beyond this point-
My old strategy, which worked against computer on Hard, Hardest and Insane on small maps has become obsolete (lost 3/4 games today):
Barracks (force labour)
Herretic (fl barraks)
Cultist
Cultist
CL to go harass enemy and see who I am fighting
CSM
CSM
Sacrificial Circle
PSM
“To dare is to lose one's footing momentarily.
Not to dare is to lose oneself.”
- Soren Kierkegaard
You know raptors are good against certain things, eg. guardians reapers enc.
I usually play eldar but am trying to switch over to chaos.
I can play OK with all the races but choose one, i feel you are a much better if you
understand all the races and styles because that way you know how your opponent wants to maximize his advantage and can deny him the power to win the game.
That made me laugh. Only race with a 2 pop cap unit that doesn't count in terms of...anything important.Sure you can make a Chaos Lord but all you will have is a Chaos Lord and PSM squad (plus cultists but they don't count).
On this I disagree. At least half the races in early game will bitchslap Chaos if they rush, arguably all 3. IMHO, Chaos shines only in Tier 2. You get upgraded PSM, a Predator(!), a Defiler, Hero upgrades (Sorcerer love), Rockets/Plasma, Aspiring Champs.playing a defensive CSM build with chaos is just dumb
First off, I would like to salute all chaos players for not taking the easy way out — I for one voted for the chaos buff. I'm sure you all much better players for it. I am new to the game and am trying out the different races. It seems the consensus that chaos is strongest at Tier 2, and that is certainly my experience comparing it to Tier 1, though I haven’t played much of Tier 3, but anyway, after much experimentation last night, up until 4 AM, yes, I did have to go to work this morning, thank you for your concern, I put together this build order to get Chaos to Tier 2 quickly but without leaving the base defenseless
Goal: Upgrade quickly to Tier 2.
Plan: Heretic, Barracks, 2 Cultists, CL, Gen, LP1, CSM1, LP2, CSM2, LP3, Armory, Tier 2
(Heretic 1) — Build Barracks, forced labor
(HQ) — Queue Heretic, Cultist, Cultist
(Heretic 2) — Help with Barracks
(Heretic 1) — Turn off Forced Labor
(Cultist 1) — Queue SPs (closest SP, then third closest)
(Barracks) — Queue Chaos Lord
(Heretic 1,2) — Build Generator
(Cultist 2) — Queue SPs (second closest SP, then fourth)
[Little pause here; you can hotkey your units and buildings]
(Heretic 1,2) — Build LP#1
(Barracks) — Queue CSM#1
(Chaos Lord) — Scout and Harass
(Heretic 1,2) — Build LP#2
(CSM 1) — Assist Chaos Lord, or scout elsewhere
(Barracks) — Queue CSM#2
(Heretic 1,2) — Build LP#3
(Heretic 1,2) — Armory (Force Labor with Heretic 2)
(Heretic 2) — Turn off Force Labor
(HQ) — Desecrated Fortress Upgrade
(Armory) — Heavy Weapons Upgrade ASAP
My time to Tier 2 with this was 5:15 on Battle Marshes, not making it a point to go super fast, but not wasting much time either. I’ve only tried it against the computer, not against another person, but there it did cut several minutes off my annihilate times. I think it’s a good start for a new player, at least in skirmish mode, obviously with experience and different situations one would have to modify it some. Still, it seems chaos has little option but to get to Tier 2 quickly, and this would seem to me a fairly standard, middle of the road build. So please, I welcome your comment on any faster ways or weaknesses with this order.
#56
Oh, the irony....It seems the consensus that chaos is strongest at Tier 2, and that is certainly my experience comparing it to Tier 1
I might be wrong but I think that the only time Chaos is at an advantage is at tier 1.
Why? Well, have a look: At tier 1 we can force labour barracks to get a CSM/CL out quick, I dunno about PSM... I certainly wouldn't get them at tier 1... cultist gren. launchers are arguebly an advantage to. period. At tier 2 we lack any kind of light vehicle (Rhinos don't count for obvious reasons), in addition, we need the veh. cap upgrade to get our first vehicle out, we get the cheap and expendeable CS with a fancy shcmany onway ticket to death (ie. teleport). In late tier 2 we get a BIG advantage (big but balanced) however: the tier 2 pred. and arguebly the multi-purpose Defiler. But that's where I have to start the ranting.... We don't get any kind of vehicle to use against other vehicles, we only have the ML CSM for anti-tank purposes and they have very little chance when facing units with knockback. Tier 3 is a joke: we only the wuss Oblits. whose main use is to eat pop cap. and then there is the BT, *sigh* this o-so-powerful "über-unit" has had it's weaknesses discussed before and I cannot be bother to go into its features right now... We do however, get las-cannons for our preds wich is good but hardly an advantage.
-end of rant
Originally Posted by Wikipedia
#57
Forced labour allows us to get a squad out fast(er) but the problem is momentum. Chaos has probably the weakest economy in the game, so in my opinion lacks the momentum to keep the advantage Forced Labour offers.Oh, the irony....
I might be wrong but I think that the only time Chaos is at an advantage is at tier 1.
Why? Well, have a look: At tier 1 we can force labour barracks to get a CSM/CL out quick, I dunno about PSM... I certainly wouldn't get them at tier 1... cultist gren. launchers are arguebly an advantage to. period.
Lets compare to SM, since they're the most similar. They will have 4(!) scouts running around, either capping 4 of their own points at high speed or capping some of their own and capping/decapping yours. Either way, their economy is likely to be stronger than yours and so they can maintain steadier troop production.
Cultists with grenade launchers are great, yes. But against many tactics, you will get beaten badly before you can even get them. The exception to this is if you raptor rush, but the raptor rush is not always viable vs all races/map combinations.
I'm sure it's my inexperience, but I've found cultists about as useful as wet paper bags for any kind of combat, even with grenade launchers. I've read how great they are, so I was expecting more when I actually started using them. If I had a sense grenade launchers made much of a difference I would have moved the armory build up sooner, o/w I think one is better off with a CSM squad.
Last edited by MeatPacker; 8th Feb 05 at 1:40 PM.
Its good and all but i have 2 problems about it Where the hell is the rhino? you said do not waste any unit than wheres the rhino??? Cultist cc reapers is not a smart idea reapers have 400 health and 30dps and might have banshee backup Anyways your guide is great ;-)
#60
Chris, I totally agree with you on this one.
FL might look like an advantage in the beginning but when it gets shot (yes SHOT!) down by sluggas due to it's health condition that "advantage" wasn't so great after all.
As for cultist gren launchers, well, I said arguebly, I my self only get them for the sake of it, but since alot of people have been hyping them I included them anyway.
Aron...
I'm starting to agree with your point about tier 1 vs. tier 2. I think maybe it is better to build up on tier 1 a little more than my build order does, although man that would take a long time to get to tier 2. I just posted it because, well, the ork builds were all highly specific--which really helped me to get started quickly with orks-- though the chaos builds posted here seem rather vague (i.e. do this, then that, and be sure to throw in listening posts here and there...). Anyway, I'm not sure I'm happy with my build order anymore. Okay, I'll shut up now.
I could use some help with the situation i normally get stuck in.
Chaos v Sm lets say. They have 2 reinforced scout squads and 1 reinforced marine squad and i have CL, reinforced CSM squad and basic cultist squad.
What generally happens is i send my lord and cultists to attack there hero while my CSM squad shoots it, it normally turns out that i win that fight but then my hero dies very soon afterwards and i get pushed back from outnumberment.
Should i attach my CL to my CSM squad and attack his hero with that, while using cultists on his SM squad?
hey i already posted this if you didn't hear me wheres the rhino? you said not to leave behind any chaos units so wheres the rhino? i would be happy if you gave me tactics about rhinos ;-)
Hello again all. I haven't been playing Dawn of War for quite some time now but I'm back, at least somewhat. I'm going to start playing ladder again and that means as I start climbing up again I'll make changes to the guide as I see fit.
As for the questions I see:
About the Rhino: For 1v1 Ladder play, which this guide is mostly tailored for, the rhino is almost useless. I'm sure there are some tatics and uses for them but at the moment I don't know.
As for that CSMvSM situation I'd have to say your best bet would be to bring in the CL and CSM squad first and engage the SM squad. Then while fire is being focused on your more meaty units bring in your cultist squad to tie up one of his Scout squads and use the CL to float between relevent targets (you'll have to judge for yourself if it is more important to swipe at a scout squad or stay on the SM squad). The key part is to make sure your Chaos lord isn't chasing after units constantly. You want to keep him switching units so your oppenent will have to keep running away different squads. This results in a situation where you are taking less fire and your chaos lord is dishing out more damage if your oppenent isn't quick enough to react.
As for vague build orders... well that's the idea! You have to learn what works for you. No amount of writing can make you a great player or tell you exactly what to do 100% of the time. The build orders are great jumping off points for players by providing some solid starting points and reasoning on why certain things work. Keep practicing and you'll get the hang of what kind of build orders suit you the best.
#65
OMG! Ifound a use for Rhinos!
A semi-usefulone anyway....
I found that when a Rhino (and preds allso for that matter) cause knock back when they explode (ie. die), so if you would drive up a Rhino in front of some Heavy Weaponusers you could delete it and cause knock back to them, meaning they don't do as much damage to your guys.
rhino is more or less useful for the smoke only, but the problem is, the smoke upgrade locks down your machine pit/machine cult. Chaos vehicles are built at an extremely slow pace.
Hey Aron, do you get half creds back when you do this...kinda like deleteing buildings?
Im gonna have to say that i agree with the view that chaos are a T-1 force. Seeing someone succesfully chaos rush is why i play with them now. Use the basic build order (i use this on valley of khorne a lot but can be good elswhere) where you que heretic cult cult. FL barricks, Lp your sp as you go along. I generally find it good to CSM, FC, CSM for resource reasons. I can have my 1st CSM squad reinforced by the time FC comes out and while hes building im saveing resources to reinforce my next squad. Also i can cap SP faster this way. By the time my second sm squad is fully reinforced im generally meating the enemy in the middle at the CL's...usually just the middle one witch they have barely started capping unless they use 4 scouts. At this time my builders are free and i find it a great idea to mine field the entrance to my base (only takes one). If the enemy runs it almost always means his force is weaker and instead of waiting to cap the CL's I rush in after him. Danceing is very hard for the enemy on this map,especially once in there base, so this will help you against SM and the Eldar a lot. I send my now fully reinforced cultists in right after the CSM and use them to kill builders and engage the Good enemy units (sm as oposed to snipers). For those of you who doubt cultists value try this.I than send my 3rd squad over. And mop up the enemy.
If he meats me in the middle with a stronger force than i retreat behind my mine field and set up shop hopeing he runs in. A lot of times I will sacrifice some units to engage his leader so he cant see the minefield. Also i will use my meat shileds (sometimes) to slow the advance of his army to upgrade my outer two LP. Most of the time the mine field makes short work of his first squad sent in and the concentrated fire does wonders.
As you can see the main weakness of this is that there is no power plant build or armory so you are dedicated to your rush. This means you might play with this for a while and see how it can be stoped...make replays of your loses and find early detection for the things that stop you and make counters.
Btw this works great for a 2v2 on biffys for 2 chaos vs whomever.
"As for vague build orders... well that's the idea!"
Thanks for your guide, logo, I truly did appreciate you posting it, and the fastest way to losing is to be stuck in the same build order over and over.
are horrors actually useful?
Aren't oblits better than horrors for most of their roles?
Heroic Chaos: Chaos units against all races.
Cultist Base: Pretty useless. You can use cultists as a physical meatshield to block pathing of particular units, but people are just going to attack them and cut them through. It's quite workable against sluggas, but banshees are so slender and sexy. =)
Cultist Plasma: inferior to Gren launcher in most respects. You can attack on the move though, would be somewhat useful if cultists could actually threaten units in melee combat.
Cultist Grenade Launcher: The only situation where cultists are useful, from my opinion. Cultist gren launchers are great at dealing damage to light infantry. They're cheap, and the damage can prove superior to heavy bolters against non moving infantry.
Cultist Grenade Launcher-
General Strengths and Weaknesses, Characteristics-
Good against light infantry. Sometimes good against a lone comm. Good against almost any infantry unit that's not moving, since a moving target will be able to dodge the grenades. Good at dealing damage. Knockbacks make it competitive with marine plasma guns. Area of effect damage make it very strong against massed units. Can infiltrate.
Only passable against heavy infantry. Pathetic against monster_med and heavy_infantry_high, basically, it's not good against demons or superheavy infantry. Very high priority, that is, cultists deal a lot of damage but are very fragile(wait, isn't this unit supposed to be a meatshield?). Cannot reliably deal damage against moving units. To counter, keep moving, fire while moving whenever possible. Very low individual unit health, completely devastated by area of effect weapons like doombolt, smite, psychic storm, eldritch storm, and all forms of artillery. Considering the vulnerability of a cultist grenner squad, try to keep them infiltrated and in the back lines of your army. Your enemy should never know that you have cultist grenner escorts until they start firing, so it's possible their AOE weapons will go off on your marine meatshields or some other harder target.
Viability against SM-
Superb against sniper scouts. While the long term survivability of a cultist squad is never guaranteed, you'll be able to reliably kill off sniper scouts and win for cost. Good against marine massers. Your opponent will try to kill your cultists first, so you may want to combo cults with flamers to increase their survivability. You may want to combo plasmarines with cultists, and a few horrors to scare your opponent's flansk. Watch out for teleporting terminators, landspeeders, and ASMs. Smite is also an issue. As always, the issue with cult grenners is keeping them alive.
Viability against CSM-
Against cultists, you know the drill. You may want to keep your cultists in reserve until your opponent activates their cultists. That's your cue to gren their grenners to death. You do very little against horrors, PSMs. Try to seperate your cults from your main army, since it's pretty inevitable for a chaos player to use defilers. If he's bombarding your marines, you don't want him to accidentally kill your grenners in 2 or 3 hits. Use the same plasmarine combo as against SM at tier 2, though you may end up having PSM wars that render cults obsolete. Remember to beware of deepstriking horrors, raptors, and DS/tele oblits. Doombolt will remain an issue, use the same infil shield to help keep your cults alive. Beware of corruption?
Viability against Ork-
Against ork, your cultists are gods. Their base sluggas, shootas, and stormboyz, are slaughtered by cults, and nob leaders take a bit of damage. You're still vulnerable to Big Shootas and stormboyz though. Remember to use infil to keep cults alive. Since orks constantly charge into combat, you will have to get heavy bolters to supplement, grenners do nothing against moving targets. Watch out for wartrakks and wartrukks also, and telwarping big meks. Nobz aren't as vulnerable to cultists as sluggas, and you may want to phase out cultists by that point. You may need to beware of stikkbombs thrown by stormboyz, since ork stikkbombs actually deal passable damage.
Viability against Eldar-
It's a bit problematic once warpspiders enter the fray. By the time warp spiders are active, you can't field cultists unless you have plasmarine bodyguards, and you'll end up having to phase out cultists until tier 2. Horrors simply don't deal damage fast enough to bodyguard cultists. Against dark reapers, it may be better for you to send cultists into melee combat than for you to gren. Against banshees, you may be interested in just letting your CSMs meatshield in melee, while the standing banshees get slaughtered by grens. A good player will go after your cultists though, and you will have to consider flamers on your CSMs. You could also try Heavy Bolters. The eldar goes after your bolters, the grenners eat him. The eldar goes after your cultists, the bolters eat him. Fire Prisms will completely slaughter your cultists, be careful of their prism cannon. Though, in a way, it's better to lose cheap cultists than expensive missile marines. Psychic storm and mindwar means your cultists will have to hide in reserve. Eldritch is also pretty scary. Against eldar, you'll have to be extremely defensive with your cultists, even though they'll wreck havoc once they are no longer under threat. Eldar has so many ways to kill cultists, it's absolutely scary(so many of their vehicles have jump, fire prisms with AOE have jump, their sorceror has AOE attacks and two AOE spells, a targeted attack(mindwar) is superb at assured kills on cultists.
Last edited by Inst; 5th Mar 05 at 12:40 PM.
Horrors are probably more usefull than obliterators.
horrors do two things, they deal good damage against all infantry targets, though still inferior compared to plasmarine(50% weaker once fully upgraded), and they can force units into melee. the melee damage isn't very good, but forcing plasmarines causes your opponent to lose more attack ability than losing your horrors.
Oblits can also force units into melee, and their damage complex is almost as bad as a horror. On the other hand, oblits are 4 cap units, and you won't be able to lock down as many units as horrors. They're slower, are worse for cap, but can teleport. In very short range their flamers can slaughter.
Obliterators melee damage is pretty good.
From Vertigo's by the numbers post on Obliterators (http://forums.relicnews.com/showthread.php?t=53870):
They do more damage in melee than in range. And will actually beat a Nob squad in a one-to-one situation because the Nob squads morale will break. So at the moment it's better to use them in melee. Which is ass-backwards since they carry every ranged weapon possible and start on the ranged stance.Next, the Power Fist (compared to a Nob Leader's Choppa):
Code:Accuracy (when still/when moving): 65% / 65% Base Damage (Min-Max/Absolute Min): 138.46-169.23 / 10.00 Morale Damage: 75.00 Range: 0.00 Reload time: 2.00 Setup time: 2.00 Calculated avg. damage output per second (standing accuracy): tp_infantry_low 21.29 (-12%) tp_infantry_med 36.40 (-3%) tp_infantry_high 31.85 (+17%) tp_infantry_heavy_med 36.04 (+10%) tp_infantry_heavy_high 18.20 (-27%) tp_commander 12.59 (-23%) tp_monster_med 38.22 (+15%) tp_monster_high 4.65 (+185%) tp_vehicle_low 14.96 (+80%) tp_vehicle_med 11.22 (+88%) tp_vehicle_high 4.68 (+187%) tp_building_low 24.57 (-9%) tp_building_med 9.63 (-11%) tp_building_high 10.90 (+81%)
I chose to compare it to the Nob Leader Choppa because that seems to be about the closest equivalent. You can see they are fairly close in the armor classes that matter. Given the Nob Leader's damage output, this is pretty good for a unit that is generally considered weak in melee.
or rather, try to attack the nob squad from range whenever possible. Your heavy flamers will break the nobz.
#74
Well, imagin' what daemonets would be like! They would rape (literaly) enemy meatshields!but banshees are so slender and sexy. =)
And Alamar, no. I don't think deleting units gives you req back. Not shure though...
.42., unfortunaly the damage won't be as high as the numbers might state. Oblits CC is a little bit bugged and often only two or three out of a squad will actually engage the enemy, the others will stand there watching.
I've seen that happen when there is only one target. I never said they were good; just that at the moment the best use of them is in melee. They make good meat shields for heroes too: high hp, deepstrike, teleport and immune to morale. They're still mediocre though.
And heros attached to Oblits are also immune to morale...I've seen that happen when there is only one target. I never said they were good; just that at the moment the best use of them is in melee. They make good meat shields for heroes too: high hp, deepstrike, teleport and immune to morale. They're still mediocre though.
BTW, I saw the CC problem also happen while fighting dozens of cultists. Perhaps they also have problems when lacking the space to move.
Yup and also gain the deepstrike and teleport. Thing is that heroes rarely break so no huge gain and their teleport has a huge start up time and cool down time. At least it seems huge some thing like 5 secs.And heros attached to Oblits are also immune to morale...
#79
Has anybody noticed that Oblits have powerclaws?
revision, cultists have passable melee damage dealing abilities against infantry_high and infantry_med.
Really?Has anybody noticed that Oblits have powerclaws?
#82
Yup, they've got Power claws, scroll onto them and see for yourself.
Their very different from the powerclaws on other units in stats though.
Obliterators teleport is the same as Terminators and Assault Termintors:
So 5 second breakdown, 8 second teleport, 5 second setup (although they will fire during setup for some reason). That is a 18 second teleport total from the start to finish, still faster than thier walking when taking in to account the distance they can teleport on top of deep striking which doesn't take the exhorbant amount of time.Code:GameData["squad_jump_ext"] = Reference("squad_jump_ext") GameData["squad_jump_ext"]["breakdown_time"] = 5.000 GameData["squad_jump_ext"]["charge_jump_cost_max"] = 50.000 GameData["squad_jump_ext"]["charge_jump_cost_min"] = 50.000 GameData["squad_jump_ext"]["charge_max"] = 100.000 GameData["squad_jump_ext"]["charge_regeneration"] = 1.000 GameData["squad_jump_ext"]["jump_distance_max"] = 60.000 GameData["squad_jump_ext"]["jump_time_max"] = 8.000 GameData["squad_jump_ext"]["jump_time_min"] = 8.000 GameData["squad_jump_ext"]["requirements"]["required_1"] = Reference("required_research") GameData["squad_jump_ext"]["requirements"]["required_1"]["research_name"] = "chaos_personalteleporters" GameData["squad_jump_ext"]["setup_time"] = 5.000 GameData["squad_jump_ext"]["teleport"] = true
Considering their slow movement speed I would much rather use Possessed as meatshields for Commanders, their high HP (670 base PSM HP, 705 base Oblit HP) great morale armor, better melee stats and larger squads seems to fit much better along with their incredible morale breaking ability.
To give you a more pronounced view:
Obliterators + Bionics 1&2 and fully reinforced
705x1.2x1.2x4= 4060 total squad HP (removed fractional hp)
Possessed Space Marines + Bionics 1&2 and fully reinforced
670x1.2x1.2x10= 9648 total squad HP
That is more than double the total HP and a lot hit points in any single squad, the only squads I know of that has more HP than that is Ork Nob Squads and Seer Council, both of whom have inferior armor classes, Assault terminators are probably close to equal when considering they have lower HP but a better armor class.
Pondering why I keep playing MMO's.
The SC has 7500 hitpoints, not more.
Also when comparing PSM to oblits you might want to consider the 3 to 4 pop cap.
BTW do termies also have the Oblit teleport setup bug?
Whoops, messed up the math on the SC total HP, either way though they are not as good of meatshields as PSM so it don't matter that much. Good point on the popcap as well, granted oblits are much economical and could be used well in a pinch, if your at teir3 your probably not too worried about the resources it takes to field PSM.
I am not sure on the terminators having the same tele bug as oblits, if someone has seen it that would help as I never build regular termies I would not know. It could be specific with the oblits because of their odd weapon setup, though a quick test with regular termies would solve that mystery.
#87
Yea, I think they are Power Fists stat wise, and the Claws are just visual.Their very different from the powerclaws on other units in stats though.
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