Warp spider against SM?

[Kargard]

Now this might sound crazy..but i just used WS as starting unit against space marines..and won 5 games in a row..

1v1 ladder 1200 point mind you,no noobs..no experts either,but ok players.

several points that make them useful - start game scouts killing.They always run from guardians,well good luck outruning those suddenly warped in WS..

great defense against scout rush

Ok hero damage

resistant to bolters.even heavy ones.Granted the deathspinners take some time working on marines,but WS squad -can- take standard tactical squad head on and win if reinforced in full.Didnt try on heavy bolters but they'd prolly lose that.And deathspinners do work them down faster then say guardians..
+much better with exarch

sniper killing!!! warping + bolter resistance means you can warp behind his force and take all the snipers down in secs - especially if banshees are already hitting the front - just a little micro since scouts are small units and sometimes take some effort to get selected as target.but not that bad..if he tries to snipe you out of position you just warp his scouts everytime he tries..

and maybe mostly importantly,morale damage to enemy.Those SM guys dont know how to counter WS because they rarely see it.I've just had 3 of those guys build assault marines squad,apparently just to attack WS.That didnt work because i warped and in confusion the assault squad just settled for closest banshee squad - and got wiped out after some close combat.

There's lot more like grenades against vehicles and suprise raids,this squad just adds the tactical flexibility eldar's lack a bit.Think of it,correctly placed tactical squads will mow down the banshee assault,the dark reapers die all too often to assault squad jump or FC or they have to run around and thats bit expensive fun for 400-510 cost unit.The banshees are food for snipers etc.

But with this unit you can screw the situation up.Its not an hard counter,but its still pretty effective unit even against SM.Its also quite easy to micro - no FoF turning on/off or dancing,just warp and gun.

Well this got little too long.Anyway.Iam not saying the WS are some salvation against SM.But,since SM players dont usually know how to play against them,they are great suprise weapon.Give them a few tries and you'll see of course,once they get used to them they'll find counters etc - but for now,heck i love em.

[Elder|Shadow]

it might just be me, but i find that if in early game i pump out warpspiders....my base suffers....i know in about 2 minutes i can have a banshee squad out with FoF to attack anything that leaves his base...but such an early investment in warpspiders...to tell you the truth im surprised they dont get totalled and your still sitting at your base trying to skimp enough resources to build a powergennie.

Banshees r cheaper, and against marines. i find they have alot more bang for buck.

[Kargard]

Banshees fit in there too.I got actually attacked with 1x full marine squad + FC,but at that point i just finished farseer and with 2x 4 man guardian squads and warp spiders i attacked and he backed out - would have owned him there so good idea.

Anyway the build goes like this

aspect portal
bonesinger
guardian squad
guardian squad
fleet of foot

jump bonesinger to check on race,start warp spiders,start power generator

start two LP.You'll have 100/100 resources when WS come out.Wait for LP's then start farseer.keep tagging SP's of course.

after FS comes out start working on banshees.any early attack should be handled by warp spiders/FS/guardians. use warp spiders to nail some scouts for fun.Just that should give enemy some creeps.Show him you have WS when the FS is out,earlier might be little dangerous.then again it might throw him off the track.

And lot of LP's,to quickly build up bot banshees and spiders.9 banshees 2x8 guardians 6 WS FS which is about normal beginning force is quite impressive firepower really..(dont forget the WS can take down LP's down much faster for example,and can resist their guns well,i absolutely hate it when guardians and banshees cant advance because upgraded LP will take so many casualties to take down its not worth it).
I usually follow with another banshee squad,you know,just in case he brings really lot of marines.Then get some brightlances and you are set,can get some prisms and upgrades and whatever..
I tried 3x banshee instead or 2x banshee + reapers and must say it didnt work as well.reapers especially are very dependent on skill of opponent,if he notices them and knows counter they effectively outta fight in CC or running around.i hate that.

[Elder|Shadow]

sounds alright, but i would still opt (assuming i knew it was spacemarines)
aspect portal
BS start building powergen
Gard start capping points
BS follow gards
Gard cap points
FoF

research HB----Build HB
Use the banshees to rape everything he has outside of his base. while you cap points and research DR's

pump out a squad of DRs

build soul shrine, pump out 3

Take your 3 plats.....1 squad of DR (with exarch) and full squad of HBs into his base.
you should almost be able to deal with anything, unless FC. then just retreat your aspect warriors and let the 3 plats blow turrets or power gens...they should do heaps of damage before the FC kills them

[Kargard]

Well,that sounds easy.It wont work against any opponent with experience too.One reason i didnt include any real tactical advices is what you just summed up or any other tactic will never work against opponent that uses certain tactics to counter.Its about adaptibility.Iam just saying,hey WS can do this and that against SM.
And feel free to post another thread with your build,id sort of like reactions to the original subject especially if people are experiencing similiar effects as i did..lets stick to the point.

[Elder|Shadow]

......no offence but i was just compairing my bo to yours....and i was just trying to point out that unless theres an upgrade i dont know about marines will always shread WS.....i just think of it as suicide.....though with haywire granades i do agree...their worth having mid game

[Kargard]

Well,you need good micro.Also helps if opponent is dumbfounded about WS and tries to charge them and stuff.But holed in my base with units coming right out of aspect portal and LP's aviable for upgrades and units constantly reinforcing?Ill be damned if i cant counter 9 rushes out of 10 even with WS.Any rush that early is incredibly weak so by the time real attack comes i got banshees out to tie one marine squad down.
Then you got unit that can wipe his scouts countering snipers (try taking banshees against marine squads and snipers,you'll get owned fast),unit that can constantly reduce enemy economy,unit that is unlike banshees or guardians quite resistant to bolter fire,unit that cant be tied down in melee as long as it has warp ability,unit that can shoot down marine squad given some time(and it really,really is much faster then with say guardians,the marines just cant ignore WS!and at the same time they cant devote the time to kill them because they got banshees and farseer doing rocknroll in middle of them.its a win-win situation with WS.Unlike mr. reaper oh yeah lets melee those scouts others will manage)

[Elder|Shadow]

u do have a point about how versitle the spiders r. ill have to give it a game now im more experienced. and yeah their great for hammering scouts. but compaired to a squad of reapers/banshees/2 plats...Vs spacemarines i cant see them being that good an investment, BUT i will be back tomoz to give u a verdict :-D

[Chris]

I find that a SM player going heavy on scouts will beat your banshees.

He will have enough squads so that even if you try and tie up 1 or 2 he will still have scouts pumping your banshees full of lead. Had one guy throw 6 scouts + FC at me, totally took my guardians + banshees by surprise and eventually overwhelmed them. Had to get a WS squad out pronto to take care of them, then switch back to banshees/reapers when he started pumping out Assault marines.

[Lokust]

Vs. an average marine masser, spiders are not worth it, but a good SM player will break out the snipers early once he sees that you are Eldar, and you WILL need spiders to deal with them or you will lose.

[Kargard]

I did some more playtesting of warp spiders,and i must say they affect game in interesting way -

a) lot of SM players devote one of their units to fight WS in CC.But if he sends scouts,its simple to kill them as they close in.That often leads to SM player hunting your WS around with tactical squad

b)The firepower against standard marines is good.It seems to me people think they wont even scratch marines.So not true.Remember some eldar versus eldar fights where WS squads on both sides fight it out?Well,marines die even faster then WS (less hp or armor,not sure which).Its pretty fast to take down entire marine squad with WS.Its not as fast as with dark reapers,but dark reapers suck in smaller fights - its so simple to CC them around,and since they need time to deal damage and have 2 seconds setup time..the WS are actually better ranged support in early fights.

[$gtPopp3r]

err, maybe that's the case with maxed out WS, but else I find that don't do bad vs. marines, but they definitely lose each 1on1 comparison....

[Lokust]

I guess that depends on how you use reapers. I really think it's hard to successfully use any type of eldar aspect squads unless you have two or more of a given type. Or at least one shooty type and one squad of banshees. That way if anything tries to go cut up your reapers, they are standing still for your banshees...

[thesniperdevil]

I have to say that a squad of rangers (fully reinforced) as support can do some excellent moral damage which would go well with WS attack and banshee masks. I suggest you build one when you have a little resources spare. But in terms of early game, banshee is my choice, its tried and tested.

[Crazyjose]

I really like the WS early game idea, but also dont forget that you can hop in his base kill a builder and then hop right back out. If he cant build any buildings its hard to play this game.

Its a really good idea, but use the ability to get places make quick strikes and leav to max advantage, spiders may be able to take on SM 1 to 1 but they work best when used on buiders and scout, if not only to decap a point like every one loves to use them for.

[Elder|Shadow]

.......everything u guys r saying is true, ws r good againts scouts...kill his builders and the like.......but did u think (chris) that insted of spending all that money on researching ws to kill his scouts (that are going to be next to useless for the rest of the game) you could have FoF'ed your Banshees out....and just built another squad of banshees and raped 2 squads of marines and 2 squads of scouts?

and warping into his base to kill builders??? uve just spent 300-400 rec to kill a 50 rec builder? and by the time u have spiders there he will have enough to counter them?


Unless your playing a very tactical game....where you rely on having them warp to cap a point, taking out a turrent, or playing someone who only knows how to build scouts....or of course orks.

I playtested them last night, like i said i would, and i still found untill mid game with haywire granades on strategic points and capping the point. they were ALOT of money for relitivly little damage.

[ocelete]

I sometimes begin with spiders too, but there is a problem: good marines, in the moment they see your spiders squad, will go to your base soon with full reinforced marines squads and commander, and you will have no counter to that.

[Elder|Shadow]

rather then build all those banshees, pull 1 squad to keep him tied up and build two turrents....u would be suprised how much damage they do, even if you then only pull out a few BS to keep repairing them....does wonders

[Kargard]

For the last time,WS arent just anti-scout unit.For the LAST time,they kill marines just fine.Please try to understand that already.To a point where you can use them as effective fire support in fight - much better then say guardians.



I've always found more then 2 squads of banshees little too much.There are hard counter's against banshees for SM - flamers,sniper scouts,assault marines..you mass banshees and any good player will counter you easily.After second squad i just go for different aspects.Any player who's getting harried by hit and run marines also knows that banshees have very limited use if facing good dancer.

But yes,best thing about WS,but not only thing,is their tactical usefulness.You have to play tactically elder.Thats whats eldar's are all about.

But that said,iam bit tired of convincing you after playing 30 games with them without no problems.Go try yourself.

[TBS]

If I was playing marines and you started using spiders against my tactical squads Id engage them in CC...youd have to warp out etc as if you were facing orks, but without the advantage of causing insane amounts of damage and with the added disadvantage that marines cause better ranged damage than da boyz whilst running. Two jumps later and its either dead spiders or running away and trying something else.

Spiders do make great anti scout units and their haywire grenades come in useful against an early dread but getting them is a massive investment for the early game.

I think your wins using spiders vs marines can be attributed to your opponents' false belief that they could destroy the spiders easily in a gunfight when in reality its a lot closer than that (both sides are heavy infantry specialising in killing light infantry...spiders are more expensive and so better st what they do).

An interesting thing to try would be spiders with ranger support - rangers are fairly cheap and dont require an aspect stone...and they do a fairly good job of breaking marines morale, that will give you a much better chance of pulling this off even vs an opponent who realises that he should use his marines in CC.

[Elder|Shadow]

ok after this ill stop offering advice in this thread, just because ur obviously getting alittle worked up over this. go have a game with a decent player, with a decent rating (CSM or SM) and post me a replay of u owning the first half of a game with WS and i will not hassle you anymore. i have tryed playing games with them last night (as i said before) and found them next to useless for their price and how it effects my build order (which is not 2 much diff from most players). but prove me wrong, im always open to learning new shite, spech when it involves using warpspiders effectivly vs a marine player. especialy if he has "flamers,sniper scouts,assault marines" i think they would take out spidys just as quick as what they would banshees.....assalt marines catch warpspiders, match them jump for jump. hold them in combat while they get hammered. by the rest of the troops....but as i said. prove me wrong

[Kargard]

It's pretty hard to prove you wrong when my proof is in micromanagement area - you must know how to use your WS,thats all.I dont save my replays so maybe tommorow.

TBS,dont forget WS are just addition to main force of mine which is like 2x banshee farseer 2x guardians.if enemy uses CC on WS then ill stay locked in combat for a while - taking tactical squads out of fight like that is pretty good business.

Nah elder,WS counter scouts and can outjump any flamers/assault marines..besides they'll be targeting the main force most of the time.

Elder maybe you are missing the point,iam giving advice here,i dont need one i got 200+ games played,got ladder rank 1300,i know what works for me and what doesnt.Just trying to point out something i didnt realize for first 150 games or so.might helps noobs around here.
And theres some really weird stuff like

"show me owning the first half of a game with WS and i will not hassle you anymore" ??

Well you wont ever see that since you cant own with WS,you use them as tactical weapon against specific units,places,and as solid fire support.It sort of opens game and gives you initiative you dont have with close combat only banshees and 2 secs deployment reapers.It works best in positional fights when both sides are staring at each other daring to move.They arent useless,you just didnt test them enough or use right.And i cant tell you how to micro them right,just use them for 20-30 games and you'll figure it out.
And btw i use them only on some maps.Gotta find out what works for you.

[Elder|Shadow]

ok i get you, as i said their heaps worthwile mid game...i thought u were some kinda twerp who just found out about warpspiders and were stretching their boundarys 2 far and using them as an army on their own, just sounded that you needed to be whiped back into line....i hate people who produce 1 aspect warrior in a game, they deserve to be shot....with a melter gun, in the crutch

[Kargard]

Its just that unlike marines,i think eldar cant afford to ignore anything that can help them win.Eldar's are hard race to play (i got 44% win ratio even though i played heaps of games against people that just use 3x marine squad build thats incredibly old by now..)
since we got critical weaknesses - and this unit for example eliminates two of these weaknesses,by being resistant to bolter's and being able to deal with the pesky snipers.All the additional stuff isnt useless though,so the WS arent just "one usage" unit,they can fill in the fire support role just fine (in fact often better then the darn tied up dark reapers grumble).

At the map where there's two bases with 4 sp's and relic and 3 critical points in middle - i forgot the name - i used WS to great effect.Since its positional fight,stuff like sniper's and fast critical points untagging are normal stuff.With WS you can really show those scouts they cant do that..and after they are done crunching sniper's,they'll start downing marines at solid rate.And all that in their rear,in cover..plus some haywires when machines try to break your positions around critical points..

Btw,id use them in two squads if enemy has 4x sniper squads as is normal.One squad will get broken way too fast unfortunately..gotta have two.

[Elder|Shadow]

my fav map for WS is the one where theres 2 castles and a CL in the middle on a bridge...2 WS squads....warpin start capping location.....orks run in warp to the other side of the bridge and u have several squads of orks stuck between 2 ws squads...priceless damage...would work against scouts as well...depends on how many spidies u have could work on marines

[Galdred]

I d back KarGard on this one(I don't play Eldars much, but I play a lot against them...):
Most Marines go for Armory ASAP and try to go either Heavy Bolters + snipers, either ASM as soon as they see an Eldar.
ASM beat the pulp out of DR easily, and are about an equal match for banshees, but can jump, can take a lote more punishment, and can take down buildings way faster.
Having banshees and/or DR against ASM just won't do, as ASM can either engage them pretty efficiently and harras while the Eldars will have to catch up
And scouts are far from being worthless, they are the most powerful HQ unit in the game,early game, scouts can tie up your precious DR making them useless or make your banshees dance forever, and after that, with sniper rifles, they are grossly overpowered and will take down half a squad in a volley.
I have watched a replay of SeleCT|SeleCt vs Ir0nclad and he goes WS + DR from the beginning. It makes the beginning very hard, but the return of investment is very good if you make it till there.

[Elder|Shadow]

crappy damage done to buildings by banshees??? they do NO damage they take 5 mins to finish off a listening post lol...i would never attack with banshees with the intent to destroy his base (very ugly mistake) galdred do you know where that replay is?? because as ive said i cant make WS work early game...so if u have any surgestions? even if u could remember the name of the replay?

[Elder|Shadow]

thanks dude, ill go have a squiz...i was told select|select was unbeatable?? hes ranked 9th?? in ratio of 92.3% (still impressive) but i thought he was god!!

[.42.]

early WS works Vs Eldar and Orks and maybe scout rusher SM
But if the oponent is SM/CSM the counter is mass marines into your base taking your SP along the way.

[Chris]

Early spiders seems to be a bit of a liability against chaos mainly due to the fact they'll have 2 squads of marines out a lot faster than a regular SM player will.

HOWEVER you will definately need to get some WS for when they break out the grenade launchers.

[Wulfenstain]

Yesterday I played 3v3 with 3 SM. Unfortunately things went ugly as ever - my first ally got disconnected just when we we going to give some punch to our opponents.
Then they focused on my last ally... The result of the game was quite predictable =)
But. WHen the pressed my aaly I had 2 squads of Shees, 2 squads of Guardians, 4-5 squads of WS, 2 Fire prisms and about 8 grav platforms.
Our opponents had Land riders even and lots of dreads and Predators. Main foot soldiers were terminators with backup of some SM squads.
I charged to the flank of main attack force destroyed their Land Rider in second ( FP + WS grenades) took out some tanks but was pressed by other force from the rear.
What I noticed is that guardians and shees were dead in a second but WS... They took out ALL terminators!! Note that my FP and Grav Platforms were busy with their tanks.
As a result I countered one SM force, almost weaped the other attaking force and fell back to my base for the last battle.
So WS seems to be a GREAT unit for the later parts of game. Still I wouldn`t relly on them as a strating units.
Shees+FS+Guardians works better for me. And I add WS to them later.
Well as I was Orc player recently it is a bit hard to me to get used to Eldars so my win stats don`t impress yet...

[Link27]

I fist noticed WS uses against SM when I used the wraith tomb rush. When i get out my fist WS squad I auto reinforce (this if for WT rush). SM can get out 1 squad before I get there. 1 on 1 my WS will kill the SM squad losing 1 to 2. But I usually have 5 to their 4.
With the Cultist grenade rush and Snipers WS are usually my first aspect. Unless Orks I only make 1 to 2 squads. Hairwire grenades rock!

[SeekingOne]

Kargard,

I really like all what you say... What I really like about the WS idea, is that IF WS really can be made to work against SM and CSM, then it's an almost universally effective build we've got here...

But - it would be really great to see at least one replay illustrating your idea, you know - just to get a clear feeling of how it may work. Could you be so kind to post one?

Thanks in advance.

[Wulfenstain]

It is not universal. WS is NOT THAT effective against SM and CSM. But still they do a nice job. On early stages getting WS will increase difficulty of your game but later when ur opponent gets a lot of SM/CSM squads with some heavy support like Predators/defillers/dreads ur Shees will be dead before they even get to the enemy forces, ur Reapers will be outshooted(besides they r VERY expensive and slow building forces, I can`t relly on em). But WS gives a lot of firepower (ok less then DR), great maneuvarability and ability to take a dread with 3 squads not even targeting it.
Not bad I say. And if thing gets ugly - jump out (FP can jump too ^^) reinforce and crush your enemy.
In early game u can choose from 4(!) tactics: focus on Guardians, Get Banshes, get WS or get DR. Choose wisly. If u feel ok with DR go ahed I think they will bring havok on enemy squads. Or get Shees+FS this works good for me.

[ocelete]

Wulfestain, i think the point here is that against a good SM/CSM player, beginning with WS can make you die soon. No matter if WS, later, are good against defilers, dreads or whatever. If i were SM and saw WS attacking my units, i would go straight to the eldar base with my commander and marines, and take out all LP while the eldar can just look at me:

Farseer alone, without banshees or some DR can do nothing against this, his commander can take all your LP and your whole base. What will you do with your spiders? harass the enemy? So marines outnumber you in your base. Come back to your base to help?... are they gonna help?

I think this strat only works if marine begins chasing your spiders... but that's not what ANY good player will do. They will let the spiders do, knowing that he can destroy your base sooner.

[Wulfenstain]

Guys, READ plz what I write =) I said WS is NOT a good unit to start with. But they ARE VALUABLE in later game! More then shees or reapers (IMHO).
Cause when dreads/terminators/predators shows up ur banshees just a waist of req

[ocelete]

Wulfenstain, i agree with you; even more, i think WS is a must have against marines because of those nasty snipers. Without WS you must rely on platforms and banshees to take care of scouts, and that's not a very good option with SM around there. I use to build one or two squads of WS, and sometimes dont make any DR when playing against marines.

But the topic here is using WS as STARTING unit:

"Now this might sound crazy..but i just used WS as starting unit against space marines..and won 5 games in a row.."

That's the first post, so when you said spiders can do good later in game, i thought you meant that you built spiders as starting unit because later they'd be needed. Sorry if i misunderstood you.

And when dreads/terminators/predators show up banshees are very good engaging hand to hand to their heavy weapons, so you can micro your plats and vehicles against those principal targets.

[Wulfenstain]

Hmm from my experience banshes can`t even get to CC cause they are weaped out and when they even do there not more than 4-5 in each squad... Ans reinforcing them seems to be a bit expensive - I mean what for loosing req for a "meat shield" (not realy that tough to be a shield) of shees maybe better to deploy Guardians? At least they r cheap...
And maybe to get 3 guardians squads with a WS support still not bad idea? The main problem at early stage is FC not SM themself. I mean FS is weaker then FC so u need Shees to back her up...
Our main problem is that sometimes we CAN counter the threat but it is far more expensive. Making us loose req and speed of build up, and than they come with dread/predators...
Maybe we r trying to solve the problem from the wrong end? I mean not considering what WE should do against SM but make THEM think how to counter Eldars?
It is like Protos vs Zerg in Starcraft. Zerg can`t win. There r no way to kill Protoss if u let him build up. So only way is to kill him earlier not to let him feel comfortable.
And btw don`t missjudge the people. If u attak his LPs all over the map he WILL try to defend em. If he is charging to your base he is not good - he is DA BEST player.
Well playing Eldar is like dancing on the edge anyway - a lot of fire power but lack of HP...

[Kargard]

I said i used the WS as starting unit,i didnt suggest everyone should.Its still pretty safe to use as second aspect unit.

And about having base rushed,really everyone worth his salt should be able to defend base from rush unless its very open map..since you have power for WS you can upgrade the LP's,and you have aspect portal to bring reinforcements constantly in.Yesterday i defeated 2x SM 1x cultists chaos lord guy who rushed my base after spotting WS.It's all about micro,in the end he ran from my base with 4 space marines left and i still had 6 banshees and 6 WS left.And of course he'll chase your WS around,its that or lose all cultists in about 3 secs then start losing SM at startling rate.And with farseer knocking his guys around he cant just stand there shooting your LP's,he'd lose entire force before he took down two

That said,if the guy is better at micro then you,you'll probably lose rush.So you have perfect opportunity to train your micro skills
Anyway farseer is a must when it comes to defending rush with WS on your side..all the knockbacks keep the fight going on forever and you can bring more and more banshees in.I defended that rush mainly because my farseer survived to fire off two strong psychic storms,practically finishing half his force..

You also need to use your judgement to decide if you want to use WS on that certain map.on some maps WS fairly suck.On some maps they are winning unit.

And i really disagree that WS isnt early unit of course you need banshees,but i never leave banshees out of my build..

[spazm]

for me it is a matter of catching SM players squads before he has a chance to build his Armory
I mean marines are piece of cake for 2/3 GS + 2 HB until they get some heavy weapons
and if your aiming to wipe them out in early game you simply cannot allow yourself even one squad of WS before HBs are out (I don't even do FS cuz I simply ignore FC until he's left alone)
the real problem is when you notice some decent number of H.Bolters among tac. squads and/or scouts equiped with flamers/snipers
I simply loose all of my initiative to SM player cuz I have to addapt my army to new conditions
I didn't find any better counter early game than DR for SM with h.bolt. (no revelation at all) and with them you can forget all your moblity you're used to with HBs and/or GSs (the set up time is main problem here)

it looks like it's the matter of keeping the enemy occupied from the very beggining
then it's you who's dealing the cards
but if SM player has a little time to tech/build up and just a bit of req. he doesn't have to spend reinforcing then it's him who becomes the dealer (if you know what I mean)

to keep it in topic I'd add that IMO the WS can't change it
am I far from the truth? (maybe I just can't play the game right)

[Kargard]

Well,since i started using WS against marines my win ratio increased by 3% (about 6 games won more).So while its not killer thing,it helps and definitely isnt bad idea as some people suggest.

Imo if it doesnt work for you,then just grind grind grind till it start's you'll need good WS control for orc's and eldar anyway,and well placed WS hurt marines like shite.Do you people know how marines retreat to their upgraded LP's all the time running your banshees in fire?Well try that on WS

[spazm]

that 3% increase isn't really encouraging
it could be you who just got better anyway, don't you think?

but I'm open to new suggestions and I find it worth at least trying
for me it's simple: poping out WS means HBs delayed and 1 HB less
or would it be better to forget HBs at all in that case and go for DRs right after the WS?

[Wulfenstain]

I don`t feel DR r worth spending req... Maybe I am wrong or maybe it is not my style of game. I like keeping pressure on my opponent and loosing initiative is lethal to me...
DR is a bit "slow" for that...
Anyone tried to take em as an early unit?

[Kargard]

No i dont really think so spazm,as you get better your ladder rank increases and you keep getting matched up with people that are better then before.So it usually even's out.And the increase was quite sudden,like two three days at 41% with no change and suddenly 3 percent over single day when i started with WS.And with 200 games played every percent counts for alot.
oh btw if you want number that sounds more impressive,my ladder rank jumped from 1180 to 1320 at the same time.Not that it means much,but it sounds bigger huh

Anyway i think that before you learn very good micro it's safer to stick to banshees.You might later find they arent that hot and that experienced marine will simply not fall for them and dance them around all day.They are still a must in beginning phases,but i dont view them as superior unit anymore.They have their weaknesses and marines know all too well how to use those now.Hit and run with LP's behind them is some of most annoyining tactics i seen

But when opponent's being stupid and stand's that squad for banshees for 30 secs or so,they will make good work.It just that up in ladder most people arent stupid.They sometimes get confused at best.

Anyway dark reapers + WS will theoretically work,but i wouldnt use that because it's more of a defensive set up.To win you must be agressive and fight over strategic point's,and with set up unit's vulnerable to assult marines,good marine can throw your entire force into lot of confusion.I use dark reaper's in mid-game usually,when initial fight's been finished,both sides sort of settled down and now its time to bring bigger guns to work.

(btw i take banshees for a "granted" unit because with the new F2 stance change,there's just no tactics that can possibly work against SM without some of his squads tied up in melee.But hell how i hate it when banshees just spend entire fight chasing around one marine squad doing 2-3 casualties or so)

ew got bit carried away,anyway why dont you try watching some replays if you want out of game training that bad?Imo nothing beat's just playing (and losing) for so long that you start to win after all.

http://dow.sanctuary-network.com/
http://www.dowreplays.tk/

dowreplays with shoutcast replays (in form of MP3 file) are especially cool,points out all stuff that isnt obvious.

[spazm]

that's what I'm talking about: the initiative given by great mobilty of eldar troops
with banshees it's much easier but they're nth more then an expensive meatshield when it comes to charging h.bolters

about reapers as an early squad
they're building slower then banshees as I noticed
they seriously own marines at beggging but a decent SM player will simply avoid them
and you can't even chase his troops cuz it's what he's waiting for
when you move them they'd have to set up before fireing and that 2 sec. are the matter of life or death for Reapers in front of marines
they are good only if you decide to turtle in base cuz I don't know... you're rushing to Prisms maybe

as for WS here are the numbers (mostly from NemesisChicken's stats and tables done by friend of mine):

Death Spinner
default accuracy: 65%
default damage (min - max): 24 - 29
armor_piercing_value for infantry_heavy_med (which is Tac.Squad): 20%
here I'm a bit confused cuz Nemesis and Vertigo are givng different numbers
reload time: 0,5

Damage Per Second for Tac.Squad would be: 4,8 - 5,8
(accuracy * arm_pierc. * damage) / reload t.
done separately for min and max

Dual Death Spinner (exarch)
default accuracy: 85%
default damage (min - max): 30 - 46,25
armor_piercing_value for infantry_heavy_med (which is Tac.Squad): 54%
reload time: 0,5

Damage Per Second for Tac.Squad would be: 16,20 - 24,98

quite impressive I'd say and maybe it's the exarch who makes the difference actually, who knows

[Kargard]

Yeah WS exarch is prolly best of exarch's..

Hm so if marines are 300 hp 8 man WS squad without exarch will need about minute to kill entire squad.Sounds about right..not that bad considering most fights last longer then that (well with banshees delaying them properly ,and that you can make it 30 secs if you hit the squad with psychic storm first.
And dont forget WS are quite good at killing heroes..mind war on FC,follow with little WS love and hit him with farseer in melee and he's down.

And scouts..what scouts? :bandit:

[spazm]

I'm willing to use WS in the evening to test all we've been talking about here
I like the idea even more now ;]

just hope I can micro them well enough

numbers for Commander units are:
Deathspinner DPS: 2,4 - 2,9
Dual Deathspinner DPS: 10,38 - 16,00

[Wulfenstain]

DR as a mobile turret and going for da FP? Hmm maybe maybe... Still u r balancing on the edge...
What aboout teching to FP and using WS as a decoy? Yes yes if he charges ur base u r toast but it will happen nomatter if u goin to WS or not. I don`t think DR can save ur ass if 3 squads with FC comes... Slow em yes but save...

[Kargard]

Ok since you people asked i finally got one replay with WS as first unit against chaos(couldnt catch any SM

its 1300+ ladder against stat1c (i think) who's pretty good at micro.Got me good first time we played.Not sure if chaos is his primary race,he used eldar first two times.

Anyway it shows how simply can you kill space marines (in this case chaos but heck they almost same) rush if you just keep head cool and dont panic.He did exactly what some post suggested,go after LP's first.Which just gave me more time to get banshees out.In the end,overrun.

He quit before i could finish up,but those WS would do some nice things with his base..

http://forums.relicnews.com/showthre...340#post712340

[Royal Bard]

Warp Spiders are the first troop I build in early game. Why? First of all, a good army is an army with variaty. If you focus on one kind of tactics you will get stomped. I use my Warp Spiders to take out scout squads, provide tactical firepower to the rest of the army, and sometimes even enaging Space Marines in melee to hold off their ranged fire untill my Howling Banshees have been able to finnish off the Space Marine squads.