Chaos - What would you do?

[CrucifiedGothic]

Well .. here is what I would do anyway.

Heretics - 'play dead' Heretics should be able to play dead. If your fast enough to micro you should be able to drop a heretics life down to 1 hp and have him fall over. When the threats gone they can get back up. That would atleast give them a way to get away from anything like a scout rush. Everyone else has a way around it. Why not Chaos? Orks you just can't, SM have there own scouts and well, Eldar have bone singers who can teleport. Heretics have forced labour. Wopdee doo ... Of course you could only do this if you have hp.

Cultists - Faster Reinforce and Beter Mele ability. Give them some decent mele ability. They are great with GL's but there crap at mele, this is a chaos race, mega h2h guys come on. Give them more damage atleast then you can use them to tie up other squads and perhaps do some damage. Nothing HUGE just enough to make them slightly more versatile.

Horrors - Give them the ability to reinforce. They are good as they are, with there ability to deep strike giving them even a slow reinforce means you can recycle them rather than creating an entire new squad. There already good as they are. For there cost they have a great deal of ability. Even at %50 to hit, thats 6 of them. A fully upgraded squad of marines can carry 4 plasma rifles that do less damage and there more expensive to get that far.

Defilers - Change the BC to 'player fire' only. Where as they are currently stupidly innacurate. Adding some micro would mean they became useful again as you wouldn't have to worry. Drop the power cost by about 50 - 100 and they would be excellent units. The reaper auto cannon is more than enough to take down a great deal of vehicles and in hand to hand there near unstoppable. Slamming a dreadnaught with the reaper auto first before engaging in H2H is certain doom for the Dreadnaught even at the defilers current hp.

Predators - These things are strong. Yes. But there still to expensive and there anti infantry. Thats an expensive unit for anti infantry. What they NEED to do is make the twin las cannons available at level 2. The primary cannon could use a bit of a damage upgrade, even if it requires a bit of a cost increase to gain. It would make the pred viable as a level 2 vehicle, wich is STILL expensive. And give chaos more option to either use it as anti infantry or anti vehicle.

Obliterators - Lets be serious, these guys are great but there not what they need to be. They need to be stronger. Face it, they should be next to unstoppable, people should quiver and retreat when oblits deep strike. Terminators are scaryier at the moment. Give them more damage and make them much more worth the effort. In the beta they wer unbelievable. What happened?

Blood Thirster - Needs some more HP. Face it, everyone else gets huge benefits. Give the thirster more damage. Make him soemthing to fear. The avatar gives pop cap, the landraiders are well, landraiders so what. And the squigoth, well. Damn! But the thirster really needs some pizaz. Hes good but hes just not strong enough. Especially in h2h. He looses life too, I mean, thats ok I don't mind the fact hes slowly dying. Atleast let him drain a decent amount or something when he kills infantry!



I don't think I'm asking for much - it addresses 'most' of the current issues. What do you guys think?

:EDIT: - these are ideas, I'm not saying everything in each thing should be implimented, there just a compilation of random thoughts.

[Saias]

- good idea on the heretics, maybe by playing dead they could slowly heal aswell? making forced labour something you can use throughout the game.

- cultists would be much better with a faster reinforce time but i dont think they're melee should be increased too much.

- personally i like horrors the way they are although i would prefer them to have a squad of 6

- i think artillery would be over powerfull if it was enemy only as artillery breaks groups in seconds, artillery are supposed to be used carefully IMO. other then that i think defilers are fine.

- predators should just be taken out IMO, they're no better then defilers and cost far more along with the fact they're an exact copy of the marine version but with lower dmg.
replace the predator with some sort of fast attack vehicle as this is what chaos lacks, maybe an upgradeable anti-heavy infantry vehicle?

- no idea about obliterators, they're good in theory but in game they simply dont do enough dmg.

- the bloodthirster fills its role perfectly, its fast and can jump around + you can sneak it into the enemy base. you should really compare a meager greater deamon to the avatar, the avatar is MEANT to be stronger...although i agree it should be equal to the squiggoth

[Adew]

How about tranforms skill for CSM to tranform to PSM when they get a squad leader with team plus some condition like not much number over 4-5, i think it cool. Although it's sound unfair but tranformation will be cool like the moment when you summon Bloodthrister

[Shorn]

Make it so that chaos could upgrade to tier 2 using the sac pit, instead of the armory if they wanted to.

[uffbulle]

i agree with you on obliterators and horrors, cultists only need faster reinforce. the rest is fine/will be fine with these changes.

here's an idea for the heretic: allow them to hide in lp's

[Korbah]

cults should get a very slight increase in HP so they can't be instant killed by farseer psychic storm....atm they are killed outright --> lose 150req per squad, more if you have grenade launchers.

[bandersnatch]

some of those ideas sound pretty interesting, however i think they may sevearly unbalance 1vs1 game play as well as team matches.

Cultists, yes, they need something. either CC increase, hp, or pop cost decrease. maybe something completely different.

Heretics, they need something as well as they are one of the only builder units unable to attack or defend themselves (the other being servitors)

Horrors, no way, reinforcing a unit available at tier 1 who can deepstrike, that is horribley unbalanced. i honestly think they r fine the way they r.

Defilers, yea something is a bit wrong with their HP, although they do make up for that with their versitility. i dont know if your suggestion would be the answer though.

predators, i think they r good the way they are. the lack of light vehicles for chaos, or more vehicle choices is proving to be a MAJOR draw back and weakness for chaos. i stand on the side of the fence thinking a new unit may be needed for chaos (like a hound of khorne or something).

Obliterators, i dont use them mutch but have found they do pretty good.

Blood thirster, im not sure what to say here, but i think he is actually fine the way he is.

Overall Chaos has some major issues, and i wish a relic person would either confirm or deny this, or just say something! In the meantime i really dont think chaos is going to be worth playing in 1vs1 automatch. team play is another matter.

[Freemark]

I agree on refining cultists, but if you do, then there's no real need to refine heretics too.
As for horrors, I dunno, I still find them next to useless (sorry if this is gonna hurt somebody :P) because what they do, PSM do it better, and they cost the same.

Oblis: he, that's pretty painful. They're not bad, but as of now they're only useful when the odds favor you, if you're in a bad situation, don't expect oblis to save your ass. They should either cost a little more but deal more damage (hey, they deepstrike, they are supposed to be the cavalry kicking in, but if you need them quickly you can have only one deepstriking... that sucks), OR they could deal a little less damage but be deployed in a 3 squad, reinforceable to, say, 5 or 6 units.

[[Vertigo]]

Heretics - 'play dead' Heretics should be able to play dead. If your fast enough to micro you should be able to drop a heretics life down to 1 hp and have him fall over. When the threats gone they can get back up. That would atleast give them a way to get away from anything like a scout rush. Everyone else has a way around it. Why not Chaos? Orks you just can't, SM have there own scouts and well, Eldar have bone singers who can teleport. Heretics have forced labour. Wopdee doo ... Of course you could only do this if you have hp.

Relic is not going to introduce new features or units in a patch.

Cultists - Faster Reinforce and Beter Mele ability. Give them some decent mele ability. They are great with GL's but there crap at mele, this is a chaos race, mega h2h guys come on. Give them more damage atleast then you can use them to tie up other squads and perhaps do some damage. Nothing HUGE just enough to make them slightly more versatile.

During the Beta Cultists could reinforce very fast. This eventually became a problem since you couldn't kill the little buggers fast enough. The Cultists could tie up any unit in hand to hand for as long as the chaos player could afford.

Horrors - Give them the ability to reinforce. They are good as they are, with there ability to deep strike giving them even a slow reinforce means you can recycle them rather than creating an entire new squad. There already good as they are. For there cost they have a great deal of ability. Even at %50 to hit, thats 6 of them. A fully upgraded squad of marines can carry 4 plasma rifles that do less damage and there more expensive to get that far.

I posted a nice response to your post in the patch opionon thread next time read the response to your post before you post it again: http://forums.relicnews.com/showpost...&postcount=361

Defilers - Change the BC to 'player fire' only. Where as they are currently stupidly innacurate. Adding some micro would mean they became useful again as you wouldn't have to worry. Drop the power cost by about 50 - 100 and they would be excellent units. The reaper auto cannon is more than enough to take down a great deal of vehicles and in hand to hand there near unstoppable. Slamming a dreadnaught with the reaper auto first before engaging in H2H is certain doom for the Dreadnaught even at the defilers current hp.

Again, Relic will not introduce new features in a patch. Cost adjustments and stat adjustments are the best we can hope for.

Predators - These things are strong. Yes. But there still to expensive and there anti infantry. Thats an expensive unit for anti infantry. What they NEED to do is make the twin las cannons available at level 2. The primary cannon could use a bit of a damage upgrade, even if it requires a bit of a cost increase to gain. It would make the pred viable as a level 2 vehicle, wich is STILL expensive. And give chaos more option to either use it as anti infantry or anti vehicle.

I agree that Predators need some work to make them useful. Even the Marines admit they have no use for the basic Predator.

Obliterators - Lets be serious, these guys are great but there not what they need to be. They need to be stronger. Face it, they should be next to unstoppable, people should quiver and retreat when oblits deep strike. Terminators are scaryier at the moment. Give them more damage and make them much more worth the effort. In the beta they wer unbelievable. What happened?

In the Beta they were unstopable, nothing could take on an Oblit squad.

Blood Thirster - Needs some more HP. Face it, everyone else gets huge benefits. Give the thirster more damage. Make him soemthing to fear. The avatar gives pop cap, the landraiders are well, landraiders so what. And the squigoth, well. Damn! But the thirster really needs some pizaz. Hes good but hes just not strong enough. Especially in h2h. He looses life too, I mean, thats ok I don't mind the fact hes slowly dying. Atleast let him drain a decent amount or something when he kills infantry!

The avatar gives the eldar +10 to VCap, speeds up production, and makes all the troops imune to moral damage. Not to metion the fact the Avatar beats the BT in one on one fights. So why can't the BT be a little more stronger?

I don't think I'm asking for much

Your asking for quite a bit here, most of my suggested changes have been price adjustments to already existing units, i.e. Horrors. One thing that I have noticed about Relic is that they fear the unbalance, for some reason, Cultist used to reinforce really fast in beta; now they reinforce slower than the CSM sqauds. Oblits used to be strong in beta, now they are weak. I expect Warp Spiders to get hit hard in the next patch.

[Hunter]

The avatar gives the eldar +10 to VCap, speeds up production, and makes all the troops imune to moral damage. Not to metion the fact the Avatar beats the BT in one on one fights. So why can't the BT be a little more stronger?

Ugh, why does this myth keep popping up. BT BEATS the Avatar one one one when both start at full health. BT does more DPS (ignore ingame stats) and starts with slightly higher HP.

IMO Chaos really only needs two changes. Better Oblits (currently their damage is a pathetic ~25 dps with the autocannon/twin plasma) and their lascannon sucks utter ass, and slightly tougher cultists so that they can actually function as a meatshield.

[[Vertigo]]

Hunter, I have put an Avatar against a Bloodthrister, the killing animations are cool looking, and the Avatar wins every time.

[ServantofKhorne]

Lets look at some numbers from nemesis's stats site and the unit breakdown:

Horrors:
Teir2
300r/100p
5 unit squad (525HP)
no reinforce
total cost: 300r/100p

50% accuracy ranged

Hvy Infantry:
Med:72%
High:58.824%

Monsters:
Med:58.333%
High:17.143%
Cmndr:28.846%

Target Hit
Armour Damage
MAX:99
MIN: 81

CSM Squad:
Teir2
435r/40p
4 unit squad+AC (300HP/650HP)
4 plasma gun upgrade

60% Plasma Rifle Accuracy

Hvy Infantry:
Med:76.8%
High:56.471%

Monsters:
Med:74.667%
High:1.714%
Cmndr:27.692%

Target Hit
Armour Damage
MAX: 45.833
MIN: 37.5

------------------------------------------------------------

So taken in to account that the aspriring champion hits for slightly less but hits more often the stats listed are about as close as we need to get, this is with increased heavy weapons and champion plasma pistol technologies, AC's also help with morale, however I didn't want to get that far in to it at the moment.

So for 135 more requisition and 60 less power you get a unit that has a little bit less total health, less damage per hit but much better accuracy and can reinforce/tech up to out damage and out number the horrors. The issue here is that teching is constant, horrors simply cannot scale up with Tac Squads. They can do some good damage to troops in teir1 but after that their lack of reinforcement, lack of accuracy, and lack of flexiblity really become a problem, not to mention that when building a sacrifical circle in teir1 you are delaying your own progression to teir2.

Considering power cost of Horrors, no one is able to ever field many in teir1, same drawback as the PSM unit, so reinforce should not be an issue here. Also the high initial cost of horrors is a major detractor since it is such an investment so early.

[angkorwat]

id say more nerfing of other races, rather then strengthening of chaos(for the most
part) is where you get a closer balance. One thing i would like to mention though. WS
though they own normal ork units, are not as bad as they seem. I agree a slihgt
decrease in dmg is necessary though. I created a strat with other xt clan members, and other top soloists, that i call infinite haywire. they played eldar, chaos, sm.
Infinite haywire allowed me to kill their bases in the game while always running away,
and winning in about 5 mins each game(they couldnt counter it even if they started
by massing Assaults and raptors) I did it later in automatch to find out against these
races it was undefeated. (its called "infinite haywire" not because you can use it infinitely, but you never reinforce and just mass new squads because prices are sooo
low allowing you to get 5-6 ws squads by time nme would have few troops, for
example allies as sm had 3 scout squads FC and only 2 sm squads(all only slightly
reinforced)). After that you keep making new squads and just have each squad
haywire. It only takes about 4 to take down an hq, 2-3 for barracks and armory) and
they kill lps almost immediately so no need for haywiring them.

Well seeing as it beats skilled chaos, eldar, and sm players it would obviously work
against ork who absolutely lose to quick mass ws right?

WRONG...its so INCREDIBLY THE OPPOSITE IT ISNT EVEN FUNNY!!! THE ONE RACE
INFINITE HAYWIRE CANT "ALWAYS" BEAT IS ORC!!!!! Thats right, all the orc needs is
to stay near its defense and get quick nobz, then attack. The superior 30+ ws
cant do $%#@ To the nobz or big mek, so they end up losing, the orc guns, are so
powerful that the ws die almost instantly if they try to haywire the mass defense in
the orc base. As a result orc beats the strat. For this reason i think orc should stop
complaining about WS, because for your info, even with extraordinary numbers of
haywire, the eldar wont be able to do $#!% to your base, so just tech up behind
defense against eldar and youll win.

[ServantofKhorne]

"Vertigo"
During the Beta Cultists could reinforce very fast. This eventually became a problem since you couldn't kill the little buggers fast enough. The Cultists could tie up any unit in hand to hand for as long as the chaos player could afford.

"Vertigo"
In the Beta they were unstopable, nothing could take on an Oblit squad.

The biggest overnerfings ever, obliterators were insanley overpowered in beta, insanley underpowered in retail. Cultists.. well I just won't go into that one, they needed something different' not just a reinforce nerf.


angkorwat:
Go on a little bit of a tangent there? as for your point, I don't agree on nerfing other races over boosting up overbearing weaknesses, its a lot more fun to bring things UP to everyone elses level then to tear others down to yours.

[Hunter]

Hunter, I have put an Avatar against a Bloodthrister, the killing animations are cool looking, and the Avatar wins every time.

And others have run the same tests with the bloodthirster coming out on top. The lua numbers also spell it out in black and white. Bloodthirster does more damage to avatar then avatar does to the thirster, combined with the thirsters higher starting hitpoints the avatar should not win unless it gets lucky.

At this point I have to conclude that your tests were flawed.

[ServantofKhorne]

Hunter:
Considering what Vertigo said I would assume he was having a bloodthirster/avatar fight in the middle of a larger battle, in which case the avatar stands a good chance of winning over the bloodthirster, 1on1 alon that is not the case.. but how would that be a test?

[[Vertigo]]

Lets look at some numbers from nemesis's stats site and the unit breakdown:

Oh my god, dont post raw numbers, those look really ugly.

here you go, these look better:

DPS of Horror:
Infantry:
low 12.6 dps
med 23.1 dps
high 21 dps

Heavy Infantry:
med 21.6 dps
high 17.4 dps

Vehicles:
low 6 dps
med 3.9 dps
high 1.2 dps

Monsters:
med 17.4 dps
high 5.1 dps

commanders:
8.4 dps

DPS of Plasma Chaos Space Marine:
Infantry:
Low 16.5 DPS
Med 24.8 DPS
High 15.7 DPS

Heavy Infantry
Med 37.7 DPS
High 27.7 DPS

Vehicles
Low 4.9 DPS
Med 2.4 DPS
High .49 DPS

Monsters
Med 36.4 DPS
High .49 DPS

Commanders
13.2 DPS

[CrucifiedGothic]

They wer only optionals, I know relic is not going to add new things, but the reality is somehting has to be done to make chaos more useful. There just a compilation of ideas. And I think in the Beta chaos was very good, and needed nerfing. But to this extent? This is just stupidity there getting crushed at the moment because the other races have more solid counters. I wrote a disclaimer on the bottom that they are a compilation of ideas not 'we should impliment all of these' so I am still not sure what the flaming is about. I'm pretty sure 'most' people can read.

After reading through the 'decent' posts I'd probly refine the list to

Fix Defilers
Give Heretics better HP
Up cultist squad hp to survive a psycic storm and perhaps slightly faster reinforce times.
Lower the pit cost?

Its rather simple, you take peoples thoughts and ideas and compile them. Nuff said.

[Noir]

I actually would like to:

-Make Defilers either 2 vcap,better stat wise with 3 vcap, or really really good with 4vcap.I actually like the 1st and 3rd option better because it allows me to use up those 2 remaining cap points.
-Make cultists 1 cap,give them higher reinforcement rates but good god only allow them 1 or 2 grenade launchers per squad and reduce thier max squad size slightly.
-Boost Obliterator accuracy and buff the lascannon(no larger squad or anything else,it's a speciailized support unit remember?)
-Make the sac pit around as cheap as an armory and allow chaos to get to tier 2 from it(An idea I picked up from someone else actually),but move PSM to tier 2 so PSM rushing isn't sped up.
-Make Horrors cheaper,especially in terms of power,so they become slightly more feasible.
-Make the Rhino useful!Either give it weapons or allow it to transport 3 squads with 1250 HP as well as very high speed.
-Make the Chaos Predator as good as SM predator(with the cost as well),or decrease the cost and leave it as is.Right now it's somewhere in between those options and that only makes it's worse overall more than anything else.

[ServantofKhorne]

Posted RAW numbers because they are conservative, the DPS is simply a run through of the hit ratio to the damage rates.

I don't keep track of the DPS stats very well, that information is not as centralized. Though the DPS numbers posted show horrors as much worse than what the RAW's do.

[CrucifiedGothic]

Horrors technically arent that bad, there only feasable downfall would be fixed with a very slow reinforcement rate ( IE Oblits ) making them not at all feasable as a meatshield that can constantly reinforce. It would alow a Chaos player to use them, pull them back to base, sit and reinforce before deep striking again. As is currently they have to return the remaining squad and deepstrike perhaps 1, maybe 2 units? Wonderful. Add a reinforce at cheaper cost than buying a whole new squad. It doesn't have to be dramatically cheaper, just marginally.

[Noir]

Yeah that sounds pretty right.

[bandersnatch]

maybe for horrors, the in order to reinforce, you would have to get them back to your sac pit. once in, they damaged squad automaticly reinforces at xRate and heals, ready for a 2nd drop. while in the sac pit and reinforceing there is no cost to it,only time.

this will make players have to deepstrike a bit more carefully if they want to preserve their cost on the horrors (like behind your line of fire so they can run back if damaged to much).

[[Vertigo]]

Posted RAW numbers because they are conservative, the DPS is simply a run through of the hit ratio to the damage rates.

I don't keep track of the DPS stats very well, that information is not as centralized. Though the DPS numbers posted show horrors as much worse than what the RAW's do.

You know why that is? Because in the DPS I have to take into account the reload of the attack and the base accuracy. In the case of Horros vs. Plasma what really changed the numbers was the base accuracy of the Horrors (50%) and the base of the CSM (60%); and if you add the reload times to it, the numbers get worse! Plasma CSMs fire every .5 seconds and Horrors fire ever 1.5 seconds. So the damage output of the Marine effectivly doubles because of the faster fire rate.

[Freemark]

Horros have been granted more HP with the latest patch (if you tech, that is), but I still believe they suffer from their true lack of a role. They have plasma alright, but they just don't deal as much damage as plasma-CSM. Plus, they get wasted pretty easily unless you have a whole lot of them (and you usually DON'T, because, as a rule, Psm are much better and useful troops). So they are not workhorses like Oblis, neither are such dreaded firestorms... The only true usefulness I have found for them so far is to send them as reinforcements to team-mates in troubles, in 2vs2 or 3vs3 games. I usually build one or two squads and keep them ready to be sent whenever necessary.

More or less, however, they suffer from the same problem of Oblis: they are all-around troops which are not effective at anything in particular. One unit of this kind is good, but 2 (obs and horrors)? That's plain too much, I think one of the units should become more specialized, e.g. Horrors deal more plasma damage than standard plasma-CSM (and of course, if they get caught in melee, then they're screwed)

[Noir]

So they are not workhorses like Oblis

Oblits are workhorses?

[Freemark]

Uhm yeah, like, they can stand a lot of damage. Forgive me if that was the wrong term, I'm not from an anglophone country

[Noir]

Nor was I originally actually,but I thought the general concensus was that Oblits were best as a support unit due to thier low squad numbers, and that if you wanted workhorse than you should go with 2 CSM squads instead.

[[Vertigo]]

Oblits are worthless. If they had a lower squad cap then they have now and you could field a far amount of them, with their current strength, Oblits could have some of their glory back.

[CrucifiedGothic]

Chaos seems to have a large amount of 'support' and a severely lacking amount of 'front line firepower // h2h ' wich is strange .. as I recall we are playing Chaos. The primarily h2h based race of the Warhammer 40k series?

[Freemark]

Well if you send a couple of Oblits squads, already reinforced, they can take quite a punch before they go down. Of course you can't just send them alone, when I deploy Oblis I usually have at least 2 csm and 3 psm squads wreaking havoc


edit Gothic that's exactly what i was trying to say, Chaos has a lot of support units, but lacks a front assault force. I think it was supposed to be PSM, and they sure are strong as hell, but the truth is they are tactically not too different from normal CSM: they go down the same way, so you opponent just has to build up plasma rifles.

The same does not apply against other races: when I play vs eldar I know I have to use hbolters for infantry, plasma, rocket launchers; when I play Orks it's more or less the same (less plasma, that is); against SM, you have to shoot plasma like hell, but if you don't have a fair amount of RLs, you might as well disconnect as soon as the first dreadnought appears.

[CrucifiedGothic]

If you have 3 PSM and 2 CSM why waste pop cap on oblits when you could reinforce your current infantry squad with more CSM or PSM and use the extra resources on a Predator?

[Freemark]

It's just hipotethical: mind you, I only use Obltis when I'm kinda sure my troops would win already. They speed up things, they don't turn the tide of a battle.

Besides, I'd rather buy Defilers than Predators.

[Noir]

Oblits are worthless. If they had a lower squad cap then they have now and you could field a far amount of them, with their current strength, Oblits could have some of their glory back.

But we can't turn them into a total replacement for a CSM squad either,which creates a dilemma...

[Korbah]

easy....tier 3 give csm melta guns better than rockets against vehicles and crap vs everything else

[Saias]

consider the cost difference of 4 plasma CSM + a leader with a plasma pistol compared to a horror squad...

200 squad, 165 armoury (correct?), 250 monastery, 40/10 plasma *4 and a leader for 75...thats 930/40 for that 1 squad (although it gets you to tier two and allows 4 heavy weapons)

now horrors...250/50 for sac pit, 300/100 for a horror squad, 550/150 total... maybe thats why they cost less?..and thats not considering the fact they have deepstrike as a tactical advantage.

now im not saying horrors are better then CSM but they are FAR from useless, ive won early games using almost purely horrors..2 cultists to cap and have constant horrors deepstriking.

[bandersnatch]

i think the intended role of horrors is strictly as a support unit. have 1 or 2 squads of PSM, or CSM in front taking most of the beating, while the Horrors in back unload with thier deamon fire.

i have always had really mixed results with horrors. vs SM i had 2 Horrors (and 2 CSM 1 CUL, CL in CC) and the horrors destroyed the 4 SM squads.

next game, it was an almost identical match, however this time the horrors couldnt kill more than 1 SM squad (seemed like they constantly missed). so they have always stayed in my "I dont know what the hell to do with these things" book.

on a side note, having a grav tank jump into your base at 5:30 really sucks ass.

[.42.]

It'd be cool if horros were turned into tank killers.

Hey I that idea just poped into my head and it would solve the horors's lack of role and give chaos more antitank options.

Deepstrinking tank killers would be powerfull but because they can't reenforce not too powerfull.

[bandersnatch]

or when they die they turn into 2 blue horrors, strictly CC units

[CrucifiedGothic]

Horrors need something. There not useful enough or if they are used there really, well, random. There usful deep strikers but lets face it, make them better and then give them the deepstrike as an upgrade or something.

[magilladakilla]

wat chaos needs is the option to specialisem ie choose one of the gods
this would allow players more flexibility, and would make sure that chaos had clearly defined troops

as for a fast attack unit, y not have attack bikes, especially because the marines dont have them so it wouldn't be accuse of being a cop out

however, the main problem which chaos faces is the fact that so many of their units in the tabletop game are modified SM units(terminators, dreadnoughts), and relic didnt want to do them in the game, for the same reason as above, being accused of a cop out/ lazy design

and i know that relic won't do these in a patch, but maybe look at it for the hopeful expansion pack, along wit imperial guard and tau armies

[[Vertigo]]

magilladakilla, that is all well and good but what can we do to fix up Chaos without adding new units or abilities.

[IronLegionnaire]

Make Cultists reinforce at 9s instead of 12s.
Make Defilers only fire battlecannon during Attack Ground.

Those are the only two I can whip off the top of my head.

[[Vertigo]]

Thats the spirit, IronLegionnaire, although I don't agree with what you listed there. We have already explained why Cultists reinforcing to fast can be a bad thing. As for the Defiler's battlecannon, I kinda like it to fire at enemies that get too close. Try to give reason why you would like to see these things changed. Basicly post as if you knew Relic developers were going to read the post.

[Korbah]

Atm I don't think horrors are a good idea since if you've got enough time 1v1 to get a sac pit, they're prolly going for fast vehicles and horrors will suck. They're better used in tier2 as plasma marine substitutes whilst you simultaneously pump out rocket marines.

The other reason I recommend getting horrors tier2 is that you can get the economic upgrades, over a longer battle they are crucial imho.

[IronLegionnaire]

Argh... I made a HUGE post on another thread as to why I thought Cultist reinforcement time should be reduced. Lemme link it...

http://forums.relicnews.com/showpost...4&postcount=84

Basically, it boils down to that considering the Cultists' meager stats (compared to other first tier starting units), the 12s reinforcement time is too much. Guardians reinforce in 6s (twice as fast), Sluggas in 7, and Scout Marines in 9. I understand that Cultist reinforcement time was nerfed in the beta because they were nigh-unkillable, and if the current Cultist Aspiring Champion reinforcement time (I just tested it - 5 seconds) is indicative of the Cultists' beta reinforcement time, they should have been nerfed - but not to this extent. I recommend at LEAST a 2 (preferably 3) second reduction in reinforcement time. That puts them on par w/ at least SM/CSM reinforcement time, who reinforce in 10s.

As for Defilers... My desire to see their battlecannon used in Attack Ground only stems from the fact that they currently make TERRIBLE infantry fire-support. If you try to engage enemy squads or vehicles (with the Defiler) that are in proximity to your own squads, there's an overwhelming likelihood your own guys will be blasted into the air. Since Chaos is primarily an infantry army, it makes sense that their vehicles should be effective at supporting their infantry. If Ranged Attack is limited to the Defiler's rather potent autocannon (and at closer ranges, the heavy flamer), you can use troops like PSMs to mob enemy vehicles/squads, while the Defiler pounds away with its autocannon from a distance (which is a not-inconsiderable 35m, equivalent to a heavy bolter). The autocannon has a high base damage value (264 - 322), is accurate (85%), fires relatively fast (1s reload), and has decent penetration values against many of the common unit types (~45% - 50%). In other words, it's good fire support that won't damage your own guys. This would truly make the Defiler a multi-purpose vehicle: 1.) Melee 2.) Direct-fire support 3.) Indirect-fire support. Right now the last two are rolled together, to the detriment of both roles, I believe.

Edit: Actually, the best overall solution would be two ranged stances - one with the battlecannon and one without. However, I suspect that's not something they can do, as all units only have three stances. Thus, you'd have to add an ability to turn the battlecannon on and off during ranged fire, and since they aren't adding abilities... I go back to my original suggestion.

That's all for now...

[Korbah]

perhaps battle cannons could be an ability like eldar FoF....except it obviously comes free with the defiler. A player could choose to activate it or not (let attack ground by default turn it on).

[Noir]

Basicly post as if you knew Relic developers were going to read the post.

Or basically just in a way to try to "sell" your idea.

[[Vertigo]]

Okay, IronLegionnaire, you have sold me on the Cultists. I definatly think Relic went a little over board with the nerfing of them.

[CrucifiedGothic]

I definatly think Relic went a little over board with the nerfing of them.

That should be in the dictionary under 'understatement'.

Seriously, thats a touch overboard. 12 seconds, I knew it was bad but thats pretty bad. I kinda like the idea of an unstoppable cultist squad thou, making a cultist squad unit a strong meatshield would give you time ( and spare resources ) to use other avenues.