Patch 1.2 - The Inside Story...

[Sps]

Relic games have traditionally been low cost. I bought DoW for $59.99 as a preorder, but without the bonus it was $49.99 to $54.99.

Most games that come out are in the 49.99 to 59.99 range with some going as high as 69.99.

My info is several months old tho, as i moved on to other things but I worked comp retail forever prior to, and my experience bore out my statement.

Plus never ever underestimate the word of mouth, or a wicked review especially when it comes to a good game.

I know of a bunch of people who hesitated with HL2 because doom 3 hype was just that - hype. Then once they heard that the only bug I have found during HL2 SP was a 12x12 pixel untextured pink area - they bought it. Quality - counts. hell I was good at it (sales) and my No#1 sales pitch is always quality.

And TBS - I'm a casual gamer altho I prefer gaming to say movie entertainment - I only played q3a on any sort of competitive/serious level.

[Volomon]

I liked the patch saw nothing wrong with it. The more improvements or tweaks just means to me a greatly supported game.

[jeremyj2e]

@*Eroes*

Alien clan has done PLENTY on (justified) complaining, Mafia just wanted to say something nice for once, it is Christmas for Christ's sake.

[Aralez]

Sps is absolutely right, the best/most important source of tips for a lot of people which game to buy is the "word of mouth", especially if the tip is negative (don't buy that ****).

I think the 1.20 patch was never meant to be released at all and only part of a bigger, more complete one. But i think if relic doesn't re-act accordingly and fixes (at least) the simple typo-errors next time they will loose players (and credibility)and the community will be splitted up in "official-patch"-users and maybe "Community-made-patch" users, with all the disadvantages it will bring.

[Mac_Bug]

For those of you who thinks fixing typo is easy - yes, it is easy, but it's the typical practice that any changes made to a build be thoroughly retested, just because you or I don't think there's anything wrong, doesn't mean it wouldn't affect other things in unpredictable ways. In this case, fixing typos would suddenly make one unit more powerful or in other cases, a unit less powerful, the immediate implication is obviously what it'll do to balance, and trying to rebalance the game is quite a lot of work.

[elucidus]

Sorry, but shouldn't it have been fix the typo's to get the game how they wanted it in the first place, then balance from there :S

[Epyx]

If you want a long lived RTS you need to put better support into patching and customer relations. This game more than any other RTS in recent times has the potential for the long life of Starcraft. You could easily make 4 expansions for this game alone by just incorporating additional races/troops never mind new tech trees etc...

However, to build and foster the loyalty of us who will buy these expansions we want to see some solid work on addressing gameplay issues..not "map packs".

At best this was a 1.11 patch...certainly not deserving of a 1.20 designation.


Yes, I do appreciate the communication but would rather see action than words any day.

Either way hats off for a great game but one that needs some additional work to be a truly excellent game.

Cheers

[Mac_Bug]

Yes, they will fix those typos, but it may be in the end that they decide the game was better when this particular function wasn't working, and remove it altogether or something instead. Either way, balancing requires time.

[*Eroes*]

Mac_Bug, balance requires time expecially if, as Cowboy has told, they are [already?] involved in "other efforts"

Yes, a lot of time in this case.

Community needs a boost of enthusiasm, soon, and "1.2" patch is not the right answer. I hope to see a real patch in january. Is it possible, Cowboy?

God, they're sit on a gold mine and do not exploit that in every possible way.

[Akranadas]

I like to say Well done, i know it must be hard to release a patch every month or so as many would want, but im not one of them, so people should just stop complaining all the time and just say thanx because i bet relic doesnt have to realese any patches.

[Boomstar]

just stop complaining all the time and just say thanx because i bet relic doesnt have to realese any patches.

Sure and we don't ever have to buy a Relic game again either.

Edit:Erm this is a little negative.So I'll add thanks for responding to us, but please please fix the bugs then worry about balance from there.Don't worry about the game balance as it stands now as there really isn't any.

Again thank you for telling us your reasoning, and intentions however.

[Fable]

The ladder stats would differ about this game "not really having any" balance currently. Also, I think Relic did the right thing giving us something rather than having us wait for a massive patch that could take another month or longer for everything they're working on. They've already had 3 patches out for this game for various fixes and people just complain that it's not good enough. How can people expect them to set up large patches when all they do is kvetch about not having another patch yet? Way to go Relic, and keep up the good work.

[elucidus]

I wasn't meaning to be neagtive, but the game came out in spetember for me and its had three patches, granted not great patches, but it shows commitment to patch, now if we can get a good patch, it would be some much better.

[thudmeizer]

My only concern is what has happened in the gaming industry historically.. Those first few months are critical to get as much done before publishers "move on". In essence, once a certain equilibrium is met then the pubs traditionally focus on their next cashcow yet again leaving previously revising titles forever dead and left for the faithful community to salvage.

We're all just echoing that time is of the essence and, unlike companies like Blizzard which are so vastly unique in this industry who still support their games years and years afterwards, do hope that Relic/THQ are *not* like typical corporations *cough* EA *cough* who run the cycle of consult, develop, release, 2-5 month support window then flip back to consult, develop...

We don't want THQ to lose site of DoW before its too late and then move to the expansion with the same lingering issues like EA's Generals->ZeroHour expansion. It was bad... But oh how humanity and the public forget.. human memory is so short.

[Aron_DeTomado]

Aye, them manlings are so shortlived they cant even remember their own names...
(Yea, I play dwarfs in warhammer)

[Hirmetrium]

ok guys, this is what ive wanted to hear all along.

just one question, your likely to reset the ladder after a balance patch change, why not get US to do the testing. like a beta patch of something. why isnt it done like that as apossed to having you guys test it?

[ceejayoz]

just one question, your likely to reset the ladder after a balance patch change, why not get US to do the testing. like a beta patch of something. why isnt it done like that as apossed to having you guys test it?

As I understand it, public beta tests are pretty bad for balance... as you can see on these forums, there'll always be people saying their favorite race is imbalanced. Most developers have internal playtesting teams for the fine balance tuning.

Game betas are more useful for things like multiplayer stress testing, finding obscure bugs, etc.

[CrossOfFire]

Listen, This guy, put his ass out here to be chewed up, he doesn't even have to make a relationship. But he extends himself and his ideas to us. They gave us something to enjoy, don't complain at him, I'm sure he reads the forums.

Some of you by the way, have no respect and no regard for how hard these people work, Damn, I mean DAMN, 3 patches in less than 4 months? I'm ashamed of this forum's members at this point. These guys are turning out at a great rate. I played starcraft, which was one of the " Best RTS " of all times and Best selling games it got that in, what? 6 YEARS! How disrespectful to come tell this guy your personnal opinion's of what needs to improve, he extended a hand of friendship and you shoot him down?

Also, threatening not to buy Relic Products? What... Blows me away, These guys are making an effort believe it or not, and I've had family in technology for over 30 years, nothing is easy about it, coding, graphics, designs. To think, they pre-released stuff to make us have more fun... This is the thanks they get? It's a wonder the guy didn't resign after reading some of these posts.

You all must realize that the man is apparently doing everything he can. This is your little outlet or source of enjoyment, this is this guy's job. I figure leave the complaints to a Thread, not flaming the man for stepping out and actually deciding to put himself on the line trying to explain to us the situation.

But then again, the General Public does suck.

Anyway, Thanks Relic, you're doing a hell of a job, Keep up the good work.

[*Eroes*]

Damn, I mean DAMN, 3 patches in less than 4 months?

Why, do you consider "a patch" this one?
Stop talking nonsense, plz. In three months we have had one patch and a half.

1.01 was a patch? 1.2 was a patch?

My opinion, of course.

[ionfish]

Even going by your numbers, Eroes, a patch every two months isn't exactly bad. Plenty of games have been less well supported. Obviously we'd all like more and better patches, but sometimes one simply has to be happy with what one has...

[*Eroes*]

Ionfish, I agree.

But try to see my point: simply I hope to see DoW become better and better ['cause it's so far from perfection ... ]
This is only possible with a costant support of Relic.

[CrossOfFire]

...And the Swords have been drawn.

Well, Eroes, it seems that Relic has been putting in extreme amounts of effort. Yes, they have released 3 patches, this is part of a patch but it also fixed maybe an error or two, but hell it was pre-released for a happy holiday. Who do you know aims at patch, but releases something just to make the game more enjoyable just because they have a feeling we'll be playing the game more?

They're putting in the hours and the effort, this is a very well supported game and a very well rounded game. Probably the one of the best, if not the best RTS out there. It puts alot of other games to shame, it's got back ground, most RTS games start out with 2 or 3 at most races, not 4. They've been trouble shooting from square one trying to make it more conveniet for us to play.

You trash them, and You insult me is basically what I'm saying, I stand by them because honestly they are doing a great job. From what it seems whatever this guy can scrounge he's throwing at the patches, so maybe you should reconsider before you come in here trying to down play all of this.

Anyway, Relic, Keep up the good work, Jonathan, you're my hero. But in a serious manner, keep up the good work.

[thesilent1]

Thanks Cowboy for the update on what's been happening. It's great to hear from Relic, and now I can sleep a little easier.

@CrossofFire
*claps* bravo my man! You now have my respect. The forums need more poeple like you who give Relic the respect and time they need to make this game great.

As for all the people who have been whining/moaning/bitching at Relic with your problems: Maybe it would be better to just state the problem that you're having, and leave it with that. Don't start to ramble on how this game is going under, and don't add any negative comments. That's how flame wars start.

So Happy Holidays everyone, and keep up the good work Relic.

[meppa]

Perhaps this moaning and bitching has something to do with the fact that relic does not even give us one word when we report bugs, as in typos in game data files. They don't tell us that "thanks for finding this out, but since it requires balance testing this one is slow to fix", not even a single word like "noted" or "thanks". Only thing we can do is wait and hope these things will get to a patch, and when patch comes out, sometimes we find out that relic did quite opposite then fixed that bug. You really expect us to be happy with this? Even relic admits that they need better post release support strategy. Let us moan and be unhappy and lets stop pretending that this is a perfect game. If we all do that relic will never find out that there are problems and can't fix them. If we are not allowed to moan we could as well delete whole technical support forum and tell people that there are no issues what so ever with this game and fake a nice big wide smile.

It really is quite annoying that bunch of fanboys that have no game experience like thesilent1 with whopping 25 games comes in and says there are no problems. Guess what, we have stated problems to relic, we stated them in beta and they are still not fixed. After second real patch that literally fixed nothing in terms of game data we are allowed to be bit annoyed don't you think?

After reading and analysing cowboys post i really see that there is a problem and they don't have enough people working on patches. It is really good thing to see that they know this and try to improve things. But unfortunately even a good explanation doesn't fix problems. They can get you out of one mess and give you more time, but eventually things must be fixed. I have trust in relic at the moment and think that they will fix these issues and seriously hope that dow will be even bigger then it is now. It really is best rts game in long time and when bugs are fixed it will be even more better. Show us with next patch that i am right and make us all really happy.

[thesilent1]

meppa meppa calm down geeze

first, I only have 25 games since I play mostly skirmishes.

second, many of my games were deleted from Gamespy, which I still hate, but I go along with it.

third, I was here for open beta, so I have been playing this for a while.

fourth, I can't find my freaking DOW cd lol.

You see this is what I was talking about: these negative comments that are added into your posting of the games problem. They are not necessary, and they piss lots of people off like me, and I did not say that this game did not have any problems! Of course this game has problems, but I'm not the person who acts like such an asshole when posting his problems. Just keep it nice and simple.


However, I do agree with you that Relic should at least inform us a little more. With knowing what's going on, I'm a wet towel in a dark dank cave.

[Hangfire]

thesilent1 I'm with meppa on this one. Your behaviour is more likely to cause flame wars than not. Calm it down please.

[thudmeizer]

One thing developers for all PC Games out there should do is have a central website where they tell their paying customers to go and provide comments/suggestions (in point form) for their products and then the devs organize all of it into a chart marking off what they consider YEY or NAY in terms of YES they Agree or NO not possible. Perhaps for every comment/suggeston there can be counter-arguments for customers to debate why they think from that list this "feature", "exploit", "bug", etc etc should be addressed. Logistically, it would be a challenge BUT damn that would take PC support to new levels. Of course, it would take time with creative planning to design the site and how mechanically the various elements would work but imagine how much more communication this would provide to allow devs/pubs to see what their customer base thinks? This is lonnng overdue and would give the healthy impression that something was being done rather than the usual destructive "silent treatment".

[CrossOfFire]

Personnaly, I dived into this because I think it's crap people hijacked this thread and bombed it into another opportunity to whine about the game. It's a good game, simple, they're working on the bugs, no need to bash the guy who's working on it. Read my other post for more indepth opinion.

I re-read this thread and I realize that this is related to game issues, but the guy's making an effort and they're doing stuff to improve it, he's announcing improvements that they're making, they let us have some maps to enjoy. It sounds pretty ungrateful to flame the guy he hasn't responded once.

I seriously doubt the Relic people will want to post on here again, This isn't the first time this has happened, it seems they come on here to have to defend the game. You people should show a little bit more respect and gratitude.

Anyway, good work Relic.

[thesilent1]

@thudmeizer


That's actually a cool idea, and it would help out the forums from being overclogged with all of the repeated threads.

@meppa and hangfire

yeah my bad, it's just that I've been sick for the past week and I'm not in the best of Holiday moods lol.

[Noir]

I seriously doubt the Relic people will want to post on here again, This isn't the first time this has happened, it seems they come on here to have to defend the game. You people should show a little bit more respect and gratitude.

I thought there were lots of people showing "respect and gratitude".A game will always have it's critics after all.I for one would like precisely more of this sort of thing by the devs,though perhaps in a non-forum avenue like LJ.

[Demonhorde]

IM SICK OF HEARING THIS!!!, oh we understand, no problem take your time, and so on and so on. Listen some of you might be able to actually play this puppy without suffering terrible crashes, i cant! And to me it seems like relic isn't working on resolving the bigger problems, the latest patches has all been fixes adressing balance.

NOTE: none has been to fix stability as of yet! I bet alot of players out there still play on 4x AGP, microsoft drivers instead of specialised ones and so on and so on. This should be of highest priority if relic wants the community to survive.

I love this game and am a big fan of what relic has done with it, BUT there is NO! i repeat NO excuse they can summon for the lack of work on patching! I realize patching takes money and staff time. But this is something the developers should have a budget for or atleast try to squeese some out of their publisher. I know that i speak for many whn i say im terrible dissapointed so far, in IGN and PC gamer etc i read that they would have scored the game even higher hadn't there been so much ruff edges. That exactly how i feel when looking at this game, its a unprocessed jewel! maybe thats why it hurts me so much when saying this critisism. But i feel it must be said with all this yes men around.

to relic!

please get more men working on the patch, shit that MUST be a first priority SPEED up the patch time so people see that your not just letting your mapmakers and some interns do work on this baby, GO for the hard problems first! resolve some of the hardware driver crashes!

[CrucifiedGothic]

I agree on fixing the stability of the game working on systems. But you can't 'balance' a game that has glitches. BECAUSE if there is a glitch once removed, that balance of the game becomes shifted again.

Example: Seer Council Conceal
When it was bugged it was highly abusable, if you balanced them out ( another glitch occured ) they wer almost never used. Same applies for many situations. If you balance a game out then modify bugs the bugs are taken into consideration during the balance and theres no telling what balance issues then occur once bugs are resolved.

Then again I have my own list of 'anoyances' too ..

Defiler Reaper Autocannon bug.
FC Bug ( was this fixed ? )
Now recently fixed seer council.

etc etc ..

[*Eroes*]

You people should show a little bit more respect and gratitude.

Respect?!? Gratitude?!?

Ehi, probably you are forgetting that we've PAID for this game. Devs are not doing us a favour patching the game, you know?

Wow, no intent of flame but ... I see a lot of fanboys here.

However, thx to Relic to have created such a great game. Now we just hope to see a lot of work in order to balance and debug it.

[AoE]

It's unfortunate really but it seems you can't get anything done for any game (in mmorpg's more than any other) without making your voice heard. If there is a major bug/balance issue that everyone is exploiting, people come to the forums and make their voice heard. Once the dev's catch on the problem usually gets fixed. If noone came to the forums, noone made their voices heard and people just went on pretending everything was ok NOTHING would get fixed. If you have been around games for long enough you know this is true. It may not be plesent looking through post after post of negative comments, but then again if we all say "Relic, everything is fine, you don't need to release any patches. Everythings fine the way it is!" nothing will get done. Do you want that?

[TBS]

*Eroes*: you and many others seem to greatly overestimate what you are entitled to when you buy a game. Your rights go no further than that the game will work as advertised. If your computer meets the minimum specifications on the back of the box then you should be able to play a campaign as the Blood Ravens, play skirmishes or multiplayer matches as one of 4 races, customise the paint scheme of each of those 4 races and not experience any serious graphical bugs, crashes, etc. You have absolutely no right to balance patches or minor bug fixes (for features in the game but not strictly advertised...eg the seer councils conceal or weapons doing incorrect damage) - you are entitled to patches, technical support and/or a refund if the game doesnt run on your computer or you have constant crashes making it unplayable. I understand that some people are having this kind of problem and they have a right to complain (although when you consider the huge number of possible hardware and operating system and other software combinations its little wonder that games have difficulties on some computers).

Now, I fully understand that if Relic didnt provide these patches then that would make you and others less likely to buy their next game (I havent and have no intention of buying BfME...) but to claim that paying for the game entitles us to support is simply wrong, and not in the least bit constructive. Relic is doing the best it can to patch the game and keep the player base happy...but with some programmers taken to work on the next project the community needs to accept that the timescale for these patches wont be ideal (Im sure this has happened...they need to make and sell games to earn money so they can eat and stuff).

Just look how long it takes Microsoft to patch its operating systems...and security holes in an operating system can have a much more devastating effect on customers than you losing an online game because of some small imbalance.

[meppa]

Could we leave this leagal thing out of these discussions, since that is just utter crap. I wouldn't even think that dow eula would be considered leagal agreement in any courts as you are made to sign that agreement without even reading it. Leagally you aren't entitled to anything even if game is totally unplayable. Your mistake that you bought it. If game that you bought isn't working your only choise is to "permanently transfer the Program and its documentation to another user". So leagally we are pretty much screwed no matter what. The moment you open cd case "you acnowledge that you have read this software licence agreement and agree to be bound by its terms". Nice isn't it? Oh and in case you do not agree for some reason "do not install or use the program and delete all copies in your possession". This means that you aren't even allowed to return it if you don't accept that eula.

This leaves little alternatives leagally, so all we can do is whine when we are not satisfied and threaten that we will never buy games from company if things are not fixed. As consumers it is our only weapon. Oh and false advertising doesn't nullify that agreement, but will get company in trouble otherwise, perhaps they have to pay fines or even be ordered to buy back all licences, but these things need leagal cases and are not done automatically. Buying computer games today is quite funny if you consider leagal side. Basically they could make a software that kills your hd and you don't have any rights when you have opened that packed, they could as well add text in that agreement that says that you need to pay them $100 every month for rest of your life This is ofcourse work of publishers and not developers and i am not trying to flame any developers with this one. Just trying to say that lets leave leagal things our of this little conversations.

Forgot to mention that nothing makes stores to accept returned products and in many cases you can't return computer games. Some stores will accept them but they are not so common.

[DarknessFalls]

the way i see it, we paid for a game, and we knew when we brought it, that it would probarbly have some aftermarket addons patches new maps etc...

however, i have spent alot of time as a gamer, and im sure one insignificant post wont matter, but for what its worth, thanks for letting us know... that you are listening. that you read. cos many games come down once every moon and 'let us know' and are shocked we didnt know... i dunno, what im trying to say is, its good your being active in the community

[CrossOfFire]

Let me repost what I said on the " Dear Relic " Thread.

" Fanboys? You mean we stand behind a company because we appreciate what is there.

What kind of crap is that? Do you know how you over come problems with solutions. Not whining about it, I just don't care for another post or thread about how screwed everyone was by Relic because they didn't get enough support, which apparently isn't the case.

These guys complain about minor infractions in the game, yes they will be corrected, but when they're corrected and you sat here and harassed the hell out of Relic and said that they were a fraud and a company of no moral or ethics, that they cheated you. You bought the Game, You made that choice. If I'm a Fan boy for standing behind guys correcting their errors, sure. I'd like to see any one of you try to create something a 10th near this, sure there are problems but they are making a very aggressive movement towards correcting it.

No, This last 1.2 patch was not a bug fixing patch, it gave the recreational side of the game to us, via maps. But From what Relic has said, they are working on the patch and released some already finished materials for our enjoyment to keep the " Whiners " pacified, while they fix the problem. Then we get guys out here who shoot their mouths off about something they have no comprehension over.

Do you know how long it takes people to make mods? Anyone who's worked on a mod here, even the most basic mod knows that it takes very long and patient time, and the game isn't even balanced in Mods. Right now Relic is fine tuning a wonderful game, it just urks the crap out of me to see little punk kids bashing guys who've invested countless hours of their time into something.

But whatever, that's my opinion. "

Good Hunting.

[Dymo]

Cross, save your breath! The whiners likely share the same mentality as the droppers on the MP play. If they don't get their way, within the first 3 minutes, they simply complain and then DROP. Misery has always loved creating company!

Never mind them. Relic has a great game going here.

A Rep shows after the latest patch, apparently because the whiners were the loudest, but that doesn't mean the non-whiners have lost quite yet.

Continue to Heap our praise and out shout the whiners! We will in the end afford DoW what it needs, true customer support.

Despite the neighsayers, DoW might yet be in the top #5 in RTS gaming history.(give em something to use as fuel

That will never happen if we let the whiners win!

With there louder voices, thier Momma's Computers and Daddy's wallets. Stand up and be heard. If not, we all lose.

To those poor Relic folk who have to read the trash by those who have ruck all better to do I say Kudos!

For a solid game out of the box! I missed the foul up on line 36 file 25, when I read the review? The game still seemed to work OK? My bad!

And in closing, a general thanks, both for the supoprt so far and the noted support in the future.

As far as this apparent Fanboy, that being someone who likes the game btw, is concerned, the new 3v3 map is a well done work. I only say that because no sooner than I dropped my first LandMine on it's surface, one of the opponents stated that mines were GEY! I am not quite sure what that means, but the map suits them perfectly. Well done to the creator!

About time.

Please keep moving forward. The language issue was never even thought of, sorry, it must add a secondary, even tertiary nightmare, so that adds even more Kudos.

A slight perspective on how bad this game really is!

I just spent the weekend buthcering and getting butchered by all 4 races while playing DoW online.

As far as I am concerned, and I know the whiners could give a flying ruck, but it does not get much better than that.

Those who would ask for the Rainbow and then want the Pot of Gold too, satisfing them is like looking for gold in a coal mine.

Having the Golden Goose in hand is still not quite good enough. History will repeat, despite the best efforts.

Shame really.

[seraph313]

Hey, ya'll gave us this game. Its still us who owe you. Good Job. :bandit:

[[AdF]GSG17]

ur post relic makes me happy

[Worf]

@Meppa:
Noone said you should stop to report errors in .lua files or general bugs whatsoever. But it is really asked too much just to appreciate an effort like 2 new maps? I notice that the people at relic are still working on the game.

And to all those who want these typos fixed: It MAY have severe balancing issues that followed. And the community doesn't want to test that out either. So if they simply did that I can already hear the very same people whining about an imbalanced game.
The thing is: the game was QAed with the .lua typos and, to a point, is balanced (not well balanced, I agree on that). Any changes made severely affect the game. And even if someone corrected ALL these typos in a mod (which I doubt) he surely hasn't thoroughly tested it (how could he?). And even after that there will be new exploits and so on.

Working on a game after the release must be really frustrating, for people mostly do nothing but flaming the devs for their WORK (wasn't there a guy here who called them "lazy"?) while sitting in their comfortable chairs in front of their computer, spending FREETIME. Yes, we paid for the game. But what about the years spent to delevop and create such a game? Even for that they deserve the whole money. Believe it or not, you can't force them to do anything.
And for threatening not to buy their new games? They'll simply close the studio and reassemble under another name and everybody would run and buy their new game.

So my advice to you relic people: take your christmas holidays. Don't do nothing but see your friends and family. You deserve it as much as anyone else. And I'll gladly wait 'til feb for the patch.

[meppa]

Dear Worf, Community is making maps faster then relic is. 2 new maps was just unneeded. Fixing bugs was needed. And game is pretty well balanced after all, it is not perfect but it could be alot worse.

What i really dislike and am angry about is nice people that are constantly saying in every thread, that is not happy about patch or relic, "Please don't tell relic their work is not perfect" or "I hope mods will come in and lock this thread as this is whining about patch". This is also flaming you know. Flaming against people who are trying to say that they are unhappy. And lets face it patch was terrible, but they will also make a third patch. Perhaps they will make it bit better if we let them know that we don't accept everything and we demand quality. Closing down studios and creating new ones is quite poor way and does not help you since you have to start from beginning. You won't have ready customer base if you start new company.

To answer in every part of Worfs post i need to make an advice to relic also, so: Have nice christmas holiday and when you come back from vacation, that is much deserved, start working on this game and fix issues and make us happy. No more new maps untill you have fixed more important issues. I have faith in you and know that you know how to do things correctly.

[Worf]

Dear meppa,
I'm not trying to flame you. In fact, I'm really appreciating the work you do on the .lua files and the whole stuff in the modding community. That's not the point.

But just imagine you made a mod. And the first thing I said after testing it was "Dear meppa, your mod is crappy s***, its imbalanced, you made that and that mistake etc." The proper way would be: "I appreciate the work, but I'd like to comment the following..."
Since you're not getting paid for that it isn't fully compareable but I hope you get the idea. If everybody started their comments on this patch the same way, only 4 words, nobody would have minded imho. But that's exactly what didn't happen.

I'm unhappy with the bugs too. But as cowboy said, they don't have the big patch ready yet and the two maps were ment as a holiday present. That's totally ok for me. And of COURSE does the community make maps much faster. They are spending their free time on it and put in every effort. But the common gamer doesn't search the net to get 2 new maps, its much easiert to get them via a patch. You don't know where these maps came from, perhaps they just didn't make it into the final release. I don't believe there's someone not working on the patch but making maps instead.
So I really don't see the point why we should not accept this patch. Yes, it would really have been better to precommunicate it and give this explanition PRIOR to the release so that people would not be that disappointed (since waiting for bug fixes and getting maps instead).

In fact I don't want to have a patch that simply fixes the typos as this would imho further imbalance (NOT balance) the game. So let's give them time, let's wait.

[meppa]

I would think it is good to get even those kinds of messages, since they help me balance that mod. Worst case is if there is no feedback at all. Can't really tell if it is good or not then, since you don't know. If we all say that there is no problems this would be the case in here. And problems wouldn't be fixed ever. Complaining and moaning is important part of this fine fragile network that tries to handle communication between angry mod (as in customers) and poor little good guys who are just trying to make world a better place (as in developers). Lets not disrupt flow of information by driving away people who are telling that this game is not perfect.

[Worf]

And that's really not my intention, believe me. Feedback truly is important.
I'm just moaning myself about the tone and the style. Since I believe it to be really disappointing to be, before even starting to do constructive criticism (if ever done), called a "dumb monkey" (as done in another thread).

[meppa]

I agree with that one, but i also understand that trying to complain is nerv wrecking business in here. For one nice complain post you got 10 fanboy messages saying that he is wrong or that complainer should stop playing and go elsewhere or anything other as constructive. There is an old saying in this tiny country "Forest answers as it is yelled at" or [niin metsä vastaa kun sinne huudetaan] as my English is far from perfect little explanation might be in place. This mean that you will be answered in same tone and feeling you are using. Perhaps feedback would be more constructive if it wasn't flamed by fanboys the moment it is written and people would write more nicer posts about unhappines if they wouldn't be told to shut up when they do so.

EDIT: You rarely see complainers post in thank you threads or have happy holidays threads. Atleast not as often as you see fanboys post in whine threads saying that everything is perfect.

[Worf]

This is a mutual thing, and also the question wether the chicken or the egg came first.

I think we "Fanboys" are just annoyed by the fact that mostly there is no appreciation for the devs work and in almost every case not even constructive criticism in a whining thread. Both sides haver their point but you need to get them balanced. But since we are repeating arguments I'll stop this here

P.S.: I know the proverbe, there is a similar one in german. And you're totally right.

[Moe]

Meppa: You kinda did it yourself there
Stay on topic please?

[Quitch]

I started this topic feeling pretty mild. Disappointed with the patch, sure, especially after 1.10 was such a pleasant surprise, but by the end of this topic I was pretty cheesed off with all those annoying forumers who insist on coming out of the woodwork every time Relic does something to say that, glory unto heaven, a divine deed has been done and no one shall criticize it.

Well sorry, but we shall because it's a pretty poor effort, utterly undeserving of the 1.20 moniker. Nor am I grateful because after-sales support is something I expect. I do not consider it a luxury. If they didn't fix the bugs in this game, I simply wouldn't see any reason to buy their next one. They know this, I know this, we both know this, and I see no reason to pretend otherwise. Relic aren't big enough to sell on brand.