Patch 1.2 - The Inside Story...

[Inf]

My heart took a small break when I read this; A Relic thread! =)

I love the game, but I don't play as much as I did the first two weeks. Wouldn't you be tired of having ~300+ ping in every game you play? Now it's even worse because my internetprovider is making some changes wich will give us dynamic IP. I'm now sitting on a 2Mb and still experience immense lag =(

But enough whining, sorry if I killed this now
Keep up the work, relic, talk to us when you feel like it and know you have my support.

[meppa]

My bad, sorry. Cleaned that away.

EDIT: I sorry worf that i went personal with that message. I was in a hurry and didn't think right. Still there are no excuses that help with these kind of things. I made a mistake and I am sorry for that.

[Dymo]

meppa, you have a valid argument about bugs. I do not think that point is in dispute. But ragging on the poor Devs after they say they are working on it, over and over and over, gets rather tiresome really.

How many times does one have to say that a BUG exists, followed by the Devs saying "Yes we know and are working on it" before it sinks in. They know already!

What we, the supposed, Fanboys are attempting to do, myself at least, is to offset the seeming overwhelming negativety that seems to permeate most threads. Especially the ones where the Devs come to tell us stuff.

So often people complain about the devs never talking to the community. No wonder for crying out loud. Look at the response when they do!

What we need is a Thread for Complaining about Complaining. Now that sucker would be one Busy thread.

Happy Holidays and please drink Responsibly.

[ShoenVar]

Some of us appreciate your hard work. Keep on that!!
And Merry Christmas.

[Battleraptor]

The fact is relic havent been open in there interactions with the DOW players.

Had they started a thread/written in the patch readme file that this was a MINOR patch solely to add a few things over xmass and they are still working on a major bug fixing patch.
99% of the people that are apparently "whiners" would not have a problem.

They did not, they only CAME OUT after the outcry.
Rather suspicious to me, especialy after they explain it was basicly a xmass thing... *COUGH* wouldnt you HYPE that up to begin with and explain.

To all you fanboys, Im sorry if I have problems with the bugs and imbalances in this game and would like to see them fixed. Im not used to paying for something to only get a pile of steaming crap instead of what I asked for.

The problem isnt with the bugs themselves, but relics support.
Take the support anyway you want, patch or public relations.

There failed.
This game has so much promise, so excuse me while I get pissed about what it isnt but could be.

There expressed that they are working on a proper patch... Good and I am happy about that, but excuse me if I am not entirely satisfied.

Next fan boy that wants to complain about any one of us "whiners"

Please post us or paypal our full purchuse price for this game, I am sure we will all happily go away once our cash outlay for this game is recovered.

New Release=EXPENSIVE
3 months later
DOW is already 50% cheaper.

See the problem here?
This is a RTS, one of the major things for RTS is online tourneys. When there are major AI bugs that can cause you to lose a game you would otherwise win, IT IS A SERIOUS PROBLEM. There are people who are professional gamers, they make a living off playing games, DOW looked like the next World wide RTS since starcraft. So my question is this, if this game is so good as it is, why is it not so popular... Granted its early times yet, but the movement has been very slow even for this early.

As for the cost fo the game.
Sure we can give relic time to patch, but ironicly it would have been cheaper for us to wait for when they do patch the game properly and then buy it.
For half or less price.

The second extremly ironic thing here is, Relic more then likely gets the same royalties if we pay 100 or 50 for this game.

[AOIXenocide]

Ok Color me blind but I have no idea what the big complaing/Whine/B*tch/Moan session about balance is.

As far as I am concerned the game is balanced. It sounds that some online players are getting their feelings hurt because they loose one to many games before realizeing they just plain suck.

I for one know better than to play on line. I don't play the game very well in the first place and most people on line have no respect for the "SPIRT of the game" and exploit the flaws (kinda like real life and real military tactics. I don't remember hearing the Iraqi Republican Guard complaining about balance).

So get over the balance thing and appreciat a well made game and enjoy it. I for one think its brillant and want Relic to stop worring about patches and get to work on an add on for more races and or units.

Thank you Relic for the patch and the new maps.

[Tacit]

I'd like to step in here to clarify a few points...

1) For those of you who feel that DoW has amazing potential and that we obviously must not see it. We see it! Remember, we made this game. Please do not confuse your frustration at seeing bugs in the game with a belief that we do not care about it.

2) For those of you who feel like we should communicate with the community more and let you know what we're up to. As you can see clearly from this patch, attempted fixes don't always work out as intended. I'm always hesitant to announce fixes before we are absolutely sure they have passed QA, which is why you have typically seen me post the patch announcement the *second* I get the 'all clear' from the test dept. It's not that we don't want to communicate our plans more...it's just that we don't want to make promises that we can't later keep.

3) There are no small fixes to the game. Everything we change has a potential impact on some other area of the game, perhaps many of which are not transparent to you. We appreciate all your feedback and requests for fixes, etc., and we do take them into consideration and log them and analyze them and make decisions about what we can and cannot do. So, please don't think that just because you haven't seen *your* particular favourite fix, that it's been ignored.

So, in short -- we do listen, we do care, we see the game's potential, and we love it as much as you do.

[*Eroes*]

Wow, that is a GREAT post!

Just a question: when you tell "we see the game potential" does it mean that you intend to support the game and maybe work on some expansion?

In my opinion DoW can become the Starcraft of the new century: let's work on it and maybe we'll see it in the World Cyber Games

[Civik]

Tacit, as a support person working at a software company, hopefully that information will help people understand why you should never ever ever ever EVER assume how things will work when the patch is complete and tested.

I'd rather have a patch available to fix the issues that exist and causes as few repurcussions as possible than some hurried piece of programming that causes more problems than it fixes.

Some people just don't have patience... and they are usually in the minority. Crying about it ain't gonna get it fixed any faster. Just like continually hitting the ctrl key is not going to make your computer go faster (though, studies are out on elevator buttons as research has been inconclusive).

[Tacit]

From Eroes:

Just a question: when you tell "we see the game potential" does it mean that you intend to support the game and maybe work on some expansion?

What it means is that we are not oblivious to how enjoyable a game DoW is.

[solar71]

First off... GREAT GAME!!!
Secondly... There are many people that could fix some of these problems for you if you released some of your code... or outsourced some of the programing work... I know money is tight but cmon now...
You need to start throwing banners up on the DOW web site / Forum, even the online lobby... I know you dont charge a fee so thats really cool... But you need to generate some money somehow so you can justify improving DOW ... PLEASE!!! With a cherry on top...

[CrossOfFire]

Eroes, You're not talking to one of your buddies, Show some respect.

Let me explain something when I say gratitude and respect, it honestly sounds like the Relic team is under funded and over worked. It appears that they are putting the best foot forward in trying.

I don't see stereo typing out of people on this forum against people who support this game and who don't support it as productive. I realise that we all get arguementative, but, I also understand that there are problems with the game. What I am trying to get across is, show some respect for guys who are working on it. Two They're working on it apparently, and they're tuning the game trying to improve it. Three, many of you don't even have anything productive to say.

I honestly think DoW's true test will be a test of time, to see what they turn out. The Game is still growing and changing, they made the game in two or more years, I doubt they can just shun a market and let a product become out dated just because they want to balance it perfectly. It is getting there, and they are working apparently on another Patch, and probably will be after that, but don't just Demand things.

Alot of the People on this forum don't put in the consideration of what efforts are being extended to make this Game become it's potential. If you don't believe me, read the man who is working on the Patches' post. He seems to be very lively and motivated, he also is presenting you facts that come with running a business and corporation. They fix things and then they have to test them, then re code it in different languages, 5 from what they said.

Relic, keep up the good work, sincerely, You guys did a great job.

[meppa]

Tacit, thanks for letting us know but it would really help if you and your fellow developers would post into those bugsubmission threads. Just a quick "Noted" would do when you read that thread, it wouldn't take that much time and we would know that you have seen that and logged it, processed it, evaluated it or anything you wish to do with it. You could even have a big sticky in that forum with nice neon colors saying that this does not mean you are working on it and it only means that you have read it. It is quite frustrating to post anything in there as there is no activity from you guys in there.

CrossOfFire, I doubt that you truly know anything about Relics finansial situation but i can agree on that their patch team seems over worked. This is just so hilarious that you are not allowed to ask any quality for game products. If DoW was an airplane that crashed into mountain killing all passangers and crew because of an technical fault I bet you would be saying that "Don't say bad things about makers of this fine airplane, it is a good plane and it is not their fault that it didn't work since you can really expect them to make a working product that doesn't have flaws.". As for respect, never knew that this was so formal place. Oh.. Sorry let me start again..

Dear sir CrossOfFire. May I tell ask you couple of questions? ...

[Tacit]

Meppa...we don't have the time to post 'Seen it, thanks' for each time someone submits a bug or change request or suggestion, etc. We do go through the forums (not just these) and gather the data, and we consider it. As you can imagine, with a vibrant community such as this one, with people who love one race over all others, who have certain system configs. vs. others, who speak different languages from others, there are so many different things we have to consider when making decisions about what to support and what to leave alone for now. We are constantly assessing requests vs. resources and making judgment calls about what to focus on and what to put aside, just as we did throughout the development of DoW. These are the decisions that all game developers are forced to make.

[FM_Surrigon]

I'd like to throw my support behind Eroes. It's not whining to actually want balance changes in a seriously imbalanced game.

I played since beta and there are tons of thing that should be in the game but aren't. Reinforcement times during combat being the big one, abilities like bonesong (I think that's the one) that were removed, etc, as well as regular balance changes.

Wanting these changes doesn't make you ungrateful, it only means that what matters to you is not just that relic cares about fixing things, but that they actually fix things.

I stopped playing awhile ago because I don't like playing imbalanced games, and I'm waiting for a good patch to bring me back. I'm sure I'm not alone though I won't pretend to guess how many people are doing the same.

Anyways, it's good to see you care Relic, though that should be automatic since you made the game, but I for one would like to see a balanced game sooner rather than later.

[meppa]

Tacit, I fully understand that you don't have extra time to spend in forums, but with this kind of feedback from your end it just feels pointless to post about issues or bugs. Even reading that answer doesn't help as it just makes me feel that you don't even want to have any info about bugs we identify for you. If you want us to continue caring for this game and identifying issues you must create some sort of feedback system for us. Perhaps one post in week/two weeks/month saying what data you have collected and what is your initial toughts about that data. I am not asking for promises of certain features, just a note that you have noted our ideas/bug submissions/toughts. Something that will help us have faith and continue giving you feedback.

[CrossOfFire]

Meppa, I know you don't have that great of a bearing of English, but you can read my post, can't you?

I didn't say don't tell them there are problems, I said don't try to wrangle the guy into an arguement, you don't know what under lying issues that they're not at liberty to speak about. You can give your opinion, but You and other of this forum, have basically thrown what I said back at me as if I didn't say a word. Meppa, let me tell you something, Showing no respect will earn you no respect.

My post was more directed not at the game makers, but at the Conduct of this Forum's members. Do you understand that? Yes, there is a time and place to talk about the game, but don't turn this into a arguement over conduct and slack, tasteless remarks.

Yea I like the Relic workers, I think they've done a hell of a job balancing the game, your pessimistic attitude is what pisses me off. Along with the lot of you, If you've ever had to support and work on a major project maybe you'd understand how much effort and protocol is behind it. The guy's working, and he's said that, and he SHOULD NOT have to repeat himself to this Forum because of people comparing the imbalancing issues, TO DAMN PLANES CRASHING INTO MOUNTAINS. Get your shit straight, kid.

Well, Regardlessly of the shame that some of you bring on yourselves, I'll let it slide, because the general public is ignorant, and this whining stuff just gets on my nerves. Yes there are imbalanced issues, but there are in SC, there are in every game. But in the other forums, they said " That's life " and dealed with them in a civil manner, or tried to find a way to counter problems. There maybe some programming problems, but they're working on it, and pre-released a portion of their Patch for our enjoyment.

It just infuriates me to see these kinds of out bursts and comparisons, trying to threaten the Relic Team by wildly inaccurate comparisons to other games that aren't anywhere near this platform that are years younger.

I still stand behind Relic, and I figure if I'm a fan boy for supporting some guys who apparently, and have proven tonight that they give a damn, which they should not have to be battered by the consumer but they chose to do it. You don't understand what kind of devotion there is to this game by Relic.

By the way, It has been stated that they went over budget with this project while designing it, You do have no idea where their financial situation is.

Regardlessly, Thank you all for your time.

[Demonhorde]

tacit: One question are you trying to get to the bottom of the ATI + nforce2 + AMD. In the help folder it list all of these configurations as having potential problems. All i can say is that im still experienceing crashes and im not the only one that is frustrated out of my wits.

battleraptor: I couldn't agree more, relic must realize that if this is the level of a so called "finnished product" were lots and lots of people get frustrated and are unable to play they need to do fixes rather quickly. I for one will not buy a relic product in the first couple of moth, or before im fairly serten that the game is playable without crashing.

since i could have picked it up after christmas and saved cash. As it is now i have maybe played 50 games online and a 1/3 of them i have been unable to finnish due to crashing.

[|AXiN|]

Tacit: Just a suggestion, but perhaps stickying in the Tech Support forum a thread listing all currently known bugs might be handy. If you limited posting in the thread to mods only, and assigned a mod to keeping it updated, the community would be able to see very easily what issues you are currently aware of and trying to fix. This is something my other favourite company has implemented, and it massively reduced both angry unsatisfied and angry in response fanboy posting.

That aside, I have to say that one of my main problems with the 1.20 patch was the way it was presented. In a patch going from version 1.10 to 1.20 I expect serious amounts of changes, balances and bugfixes. It is, after all, a move of ten decimal points. If this patch had been released as, say, 1.12, I very much doubt the outcry would have been anywhere near as bad, as such a small move is indicative of not too much being changed/rebalanced/whatever. Don't get me wrong, I do appreciate the work you're putting in on this game, but for a 1.20 release this, well, sucked.

[naradaman]

I love this game and am a big fan of what relic has done with it, BUT there is NO! i repeat NO excuse they can summon for the lack of work on patching! I realize patching takes money and staff time. But this is something the developers should have a budget for or atleast try to squeese some out of their publisher. I know that i speak for many whn i say im terrible dissapointed so far, in IGN and PC gamer etc i read that they would have scored the game even higher hadn't there been so much ruff edges. That exactly how i feel when looking at this game, its a unprocessed jewel! maybe thats why it hurts me so much when saying this critisism. But i feel it must be said with all this yes men around.

The excuse is buried in your post actually. Lack of money and staff could well be the problem. Who knows maybe THQ are tight asses who won't give up any money for post-release development. THQ rushed released this game, putting pressure on Relic to finish it as far as I've herad. This can probably account for the unprocessed jewel effect.

I suppose a yes man is someone who doesn't agree with you?

battleraptor: I couldn't agree more, relic must realize that if this is the level of a so called "finnished product" were lots and lots of people get frustrated and are unable to play they need to do fixes rather quickly. I for one will not buy a relic product in the first couple of moth, or before im fairly serten that the game is playable without crashing.

Like I just just wrote, the game was rushed to a finish, therefore (I surmize) Relic could not do all the stability testing they would've liked. Nevertheless, with every game relase, there is always systems that will refuse to run it. It's a certainty when developing games, whether it be a graphics incompatibility or just not good enough specs.

Yes, call me a fanboy if you must. There are 2 extremes being expressed in this thread. People demanding better service/support and people saying we should be grateful for the current service/support we get. I do not feel compelled to be grateful for the game (after all I did buy it), but I also do not take for granted the patches and support we get, because I know that they could be doing a lot worse in the grand scale of things.

It could be doing alot worse under EA.

[Boomstar]

First its really really nice to see you guys taking an active part in, communicating with us.We can be a real pain the arse some times (I should know I'm one of them ).Its good to know that you guys want to see this game be all it can be.And we can only hope you get the means (and time) to do it.Its good to know you care about your fans/customers(As you wouldn't be here at all if you didn't give a damn).

Second people get really frustrated some times(Again I'm one of them :argh: ).

I don't wana speak for others:

Wanting these changes doesn't make you ungrateful, it only means that what matters to you is not just that relic cares about fixing things, but that they actually fix things.

I stopped playing awhile ago because I don't like playing imbalanced games, and I'm waiting for a good patch to bring me back. I'm sure I'm not alone though I won't pretend to guess how many people are doing the same.

Anyways, it's good to see you care Relic, though that should be automatic since you made the game, but I for one would like to see a balanced game sooner rather than later.

But this exactly how I feel, and its what I believe a large part of the playerbase feel.

[LarkinVB]

Tacit: Thanks for the feedback. I still would like to know why Relic didn't fix obvious lua bugs/typos or other bugs (direct connect ...) which don't touch balance ? None of your comments shed a light on this. I just don't understand.

[Moe]

He did mention that they were working on the direct connect problems but that it didn't pass QA in time to be released with 1.2.

[Kamikaze]

Thank you very much, it's great that you listen to us and want to improve the game fun.
The map crossroads is great, though a bit small for orks. In the next patch a new map with a lot of space and only a few tricky path would be great. Yeah i know it's only me opinion, but you just read it.
Time to kill some SM now

[TBS]

Tacit: Thanks for the feedback. I still would like to know why Relic didn't fix obvious lua bugs/typos or other bugs (direct connect ...) which don't touch balance ? None of your comments shed a light on this. I just don't understand.

if you think about it they actually do touch balance (with the exception of those causing graphical glitches). Despite what the pessimists say the balance in this game isnt too bad, eldar vs ork is the only real problem and many of the other issues only arise at very high levels of play (and fixing those issues could well destroy balance at the lower levels - ie for the majority of players, its very difficult to achieve true balance at all levels of play). Now, many of these lua typos cause units to do different damage to what was intended, yet the game is reasonably balanced...so surely fixing these typos can only cause imbalance (it is too much to hope that all the typos would exactly cancel each other out).

[eltroubabadour]

about 'imbalance' problems, below are figures taken from ladder webpage
Eldar 54% Chaos 54% SM 52% Orks 52%
Don't know for Eldar Vs Orks though

For me, balance is not a problem, btw i am a SM player, the one of the two underpowered race , well i just wanted to say that balance problems must be solved but don't came first on my list

[gadom]

well i only play LAN (my ping is horrible), and i think that this patch work quite well,
i've really seen a difference with the IA (she is better)
(but i never had a crash or something like this even in LAN)
I think that before crying it's better to post suggestion, and not yelling at relic developers. This game is really enormous with all the chapter andrace that could be input, it's quite normal to have bug in a game like this.
I'm just upset with RDN tools which is really difficult to understand (especially for a frenchy)
have a good Christmas

[Moe]

*Eroes*, CrossOfFire, take your personal issues to PM please.

[jesukrixto]

Haven't seen any disrespect in eroes way when adressing tacit. He has the right to complain just as anyone else, and to point out what he thinks is not working in a product he bought.

There's two extremes here, and people that lean to one or the other in such a way that any other opinion sounds like blasphemy to them. And it shouldn't be that way. It's funny how some demand respect (where there's been respect already), but then give none in return. Not agreeing with somebody and telling so is not a lack of respect. Treating other's peoples opinions of childish when they are not is.

By the way, at some point I read something about meppa's bad english...I'm not a native english speaker either, and maybe that's why I understand meppa better than the one that insulted meppa for his english. Anyway, insulting people's intelligence is a lack of respect as well...

Yah, lack of respect is really "infuriating" isn't it...burn the heretics...

PS: On topic, thanks tacit for sharing thoughts and opinions, but I do agree with some posters that some knowledge, maybe not of what's going on, but that something's going on, would help many of us feel better...also, it'd be nice to hear some comments on the balance issues the community talks about, maybe not your intention to modify things, but what you think of them. I mean, not every little thing, but things everybody's talking about...In my opinion programatic bugs are more important to correct than balance issues, but I'm not too much of a competitive player, and I mostly play 3v3 or bigger, so most of those balance issues are just not an issue for me...

[Worf]

Concerning more feedback from the developers:
Even reading threads like these (right now 9 pages and the suggestions-thread is even longer) takes a lot of time. Unfortunately not every post contains something useful. Remember the bug submission forum before the relaunch. Who wants to decide which thread is important, which one isn't? And there surely are duplications. Answering even only the important posts would be a full time job alone.

And of course the devs are also supposed to work on the next patch (including .lua-typos which cause balancing problems, messy hardware setups, nat and router issues etc.) and the next game or expansion (yes, they are doing that as well since they'll get no further money from thq if they don't). I don't know how many people are working at relic but this is enough work even for a big staff.

I know it is frustrating not to see any response and a thread of acknowledged bugs REALLY would be a good idea and of a lot of help.

As for the balance-fixes:
Blizzard kept balancing the original Starcraft (not BW) until patch 1.08 which was released in may 2001. That is about 3 years(!) after the release. Starcraft has only 3 races while DoW has 4. Do you seriously expect relic, with a smaller budged and less manpower, to create a balanced game within 3 months?

Patience is a human virtue guys.
I was told patience can be a more powerful weapon than the sword.

[CrossOfFire]

Moe, to be frank I flew off the handle yesterday, I did lose patience, but not invalidly. I apologize to the forum, but I think you as an Moderator should also intervene when people start making personnal attacks such as Fanboy, and also to play the devil's advocate, When whiners are attacked.

I would really like to see this as a discussion of facts and theories, this entire forum rather then just, some half-baked idea that they throw into a thread. But then again, this claim is in the wrong Thread I'll end it here.

In short, My apology, and choose your words better next time.

[spaceyme]

In my opinion DoW can become the Starcraft of the new century: let's work on it and maybe we'll see it in the World Cyber Games

AoX _IS_ the Starcraft of the new century have you not tried it? I'm done with DoW and moving over to AoX. DoW is a great game and well worth the money but i'm tired of hanging around getting frustrated playing Chaos (those that say the game is balanced would perhaps like to explain the lack of Chaos players in the top 20?). Fixes / balance changes are too slow, period.

It's obvious a lack of funding and misguided direction from THQ is the cause of the grief. The only glimmer of hope for this game is that Relic are working on 'the expansion' that will not only have loads more content but lots of balance / fixes too. THEN we might have a challenger for 'the new starcraft'. But until then is all about AoX.

[Quitch]

about 'imbalance' problems, below are figures taken from ladder webpage
Eldar 54% Chaos 54% SM 52% Orks 52%

The fact that those figures are all above 50% should suggest something to you about their usefulness in a balance discussion.

[TBS]

whats the problem with the numbers being above 50%? Eldar and chaos win 54% of their matches and SM and Orks win 52%. There are balance issues but they arent game destroying - those numbers all being around 50% is one of the indicators of a balanced game...if one of the numbers was ~70% then that race would be overpowered, if one of the numbers was ~30% then that race would be underpowered. Obviously theres more to balance than that but the fact that a key indicator is pretty much on target can only be a good thing.

[meppa]

Actually it doesn't matter that those values are above 50% but they still don't tell whole truth as it is only general stats. You can't get very much info out of those values since they just tell how many battles some race wins, it doesn't show us how many eldar vs ork battles orks and eldar win neither does it tell us how many 1v1 automatch games those races win.

Those values only show as that relic did alright with balance and nothing is totally out of balance. All races are usable and playable, but still might have inbalance in them. To do a proper statistical analysis you need bit more info then just 4 general stats .

[TBS]

indeed - thats what I meant when I said that those stats were only one of the indicators of good balance. They do show that what balance issues there are arent as terrible as some people make out...in truth this game is very well balanced for the length of time it has been out. Anyone thinking that its possible to have an RTS perfectly balanced by release needs a reality check - no matter how long is spent on balance the RTS community will still find some strategy or specific build order or use micro that makes the game imbalanced.

[General Blaze]

Good to know that you still care Relic. Even I'm surprised how patient you people (Relic) are especially with all the "OMFG. GAME'S UNBALANCE! I'M NOT PLAYING ANYMORE! RATHER PLAY ARMIES OF EXIGO!" going on.

Speaking of which:

AoX _IS_ the Starcraft of the new century have you not tried it? I'm done with DoW and moving over to AoX. DoW is a great game and well worth the money but i'm tired of hanging around getting frustrated playing Chaos (those that say the game is balanced would perhaps like to explain the lack of Chaos players in the top 20?). Fixes / balance changes are too slow, period.

It's obvious a lack of funding and misguided direction from THQ is the cause of the grief. The only glimmer of hope for this game is that Relic are working on 'the expansion' that will not only have loads more content but lots of balance / fixes too. THEN we might have a challenger for 'the new starcraft'. But until then is all about AoX.

AoX. oh right. The Starcraft clone. Oh sure. (Sarcasm) AoX is a great game! Much more balanced then DOW! Best of all, JUST LIKE STARCRAFT! Whoopee! (sarcasm)

Seriously though, the reason I chose DOW then the other RTSs is because it's fresh unlike most RTSs that uses the same formula over & over again. (Mining gold, cutting wood, micro like crazy..etc.Note: Not to say I don't like micro, but excessive micro can be annoying like a certain Blizzard RTS that ripped off Warlords Battlecry ) If I wanted to play a clickfest Blizzard game, I'll play Starcraft. I don't need another "Warcraft/Starcraft styled" game. If any of you think that "Starcraft style" gaming is the way of future RTSs, then...I have nothing else to say to you 'cause it's hopeless.

[solar71]

one silly thing i noticed....
When some people talk about SERIOUSLY imballanced races...If you go look at the totall win/loss numbers for the 4 races, its only about 2% that seperates the "BEST" from the "WORST" now, how is this EXTREMELY imballanced ?

[General Blaze]

Well, those same people are mostly pessimists. They never look at half a glass of water as half-full, but half-empty. Same meaning, different view. Applies the same way. A 2% difference is enough to make them scream.

[spaceyme]

AoX. oh right. The Starcraft clone. Oh sure. (Sarcasm) AoX is a great game! Much more balanced then DOW! Best of all, JUST LIKE STARCRAFT! Whoopee! (sarcasm)

Yes that's what said, that's exactly what I meant too, honestly, get some comprehension skills. I was responding to the poster who wanted to think DoW could be the new Starcraft - of course it's OK that he can say that about DoW but I can't say that about AoX can I? We can't talk about other games here.. noooo!

If I wanted to play a clickfest Blizzard game, I'll play Starcraft. I don't need another "Warcraft/Starcraft styled" game. If any of you think that "Starcraft style" gaming is the way of future RTSs, then...I have nothing else to say to you 'cause it's hopeless.

Starcraft is still the bechmark when it comes to strategic depth in an RTS, nothing has come close to it except now with AoX. You might say it's hopeless but lets judge this game against AoX in a years time shall we?

Well, those same people are mostly pessimists. They never look at half a glass of water as half-full, but half-empty. Same meaning, different view. Applies the same way. A 2% difference is enough to make them scream.

Perhaps you and your "man this game is insanely balanced already" friends can explain the lack of Chaos players in the top 10 on the 1v1 ladder? Actually make that top 20? Hangon - top 50? Wait! While we're at it lets take a big look at the Chaos players in the top 100? Niiiiice. Take a read of the "Chaos style over substance" thread for some half decent proof.

[General Blaze]

I'm not saying I didn't like Armies of Exigo because "it's like Starcraft, which I hate". Don't get me wrong. I like Starcraft. I just don't like it when someone makes a direct clone out of another, whether it's balanced or not. That's why I said I'd rather stick to Starcraft than play a different game that uses the EXACT same formula. When it comes to RTSs, it's best that they take RTS gameplay to the next level rather than limiting themselves to one simple formula. I however, do agree that Starcraft DOES have certain strategic depth.

Perhaps you and your "man this game is insanely balanced already" friends can explain the lack of Chaos players in the top 10 on the 1v1 ladder? Actually make that top 20? Hangon - top 50? Wait! While we're at it lets take a big look at the Chaos players in the top 100? Niiiiice. Take a read of the "Chaos style over substance" thread for some half decent proof.

Er, you DO know that Starcraft had the exact same problem until 2001? Took 8 patches in 3 years just to get it right. That's why it's so perfectly balanced now. I never said DOW was perfectly balanced. Granted, it's got balance issues but then again, so did Starcraft.

As for "not many Chaos players", not many people are comfortable playing as them yet. Give them time. Judging by your statement, you have yet to encounter an excellent Chaos player. (I used to think Orks are the underdog untill I started playing as them. Now, they are far from useless. Same with Chaos.) If Chaos is so underbalanced, how come there are players who can use them so well? Granted, there aren't many, but they are growing...

[n0z3k1ll3r]

The game isn't balanced, but its way better than the "ZERG PWN ALL!" that early starcraft was.

[gadom]

what DOW is not starcraft,
in DOW you create a squad you don't have to go back to producer post for upgrade number of unity in a squad, you don't have to click like a crazy for attack or defend, in dow you've just have to choose if you're troop are on defense or something else.
when you fight in dow you've got time for seing what is going (which could be terrible with starcraft or warcraft, nearly impossible for noob, when you've got firing unity that go on contact, that's pretty ridiculous)
and in starcraft when you're fighting if it take more than 15 seconds for a battle that's a record, you've got plenty of unity who fight together, and 5 second after, pouf, no-one, it's a good game for people who stay hours at learning all shortcut

Starcraft is perhaps finish but it came out in 1996 (if i make no mistake)
and even now there is still patch (which means that even now it is not finished yet :-)

i prefer DOW cos of the fast, i don't have to be everywhere with everything.
Honestly i think that i'm too older for learning at clicking in a craziest way in a game, dow is more tactical than starcraft, and you've got time for doing your stuff.

I'm a fan of warcraft 3 and frozen throne and since i've buy dow, i don't want to play them, too fast for me.

i will perhaps hurts people but simply:
starcraft is for 10-18 year old (cos of the skill of children, little finger, brain which working fastly)
Down of war is for 10-60 year old (time for thinking) :-)
i prefer dow than all blizzard stuff :-)

for the patch i f they could put a resume button for multiplayer game
And if it was possible to when we fight against computer easy and difficult computer together
sorry for my english i'm french :-)

[|AXiN|]

While some of that is true, some of it simply isn't. Most, if not all battles, are decided by their micromanagement - where to direct each squad's fire, how to tie up as many squads as possible with the least men, that sort of thing.

Starcraft lurched from Zerg pwning all to Zerg getting pwned to successful through a series of patches, which was bad for gameplay, but showed that the developer was listening to the community. Community said Zerg were too good - they got nerfed. Community said Zerg sucked - they got powered back up. It took a while, but the end result was worth it.

With Relic, the main communication seems to be along the lines of "We're aware of your concerns, but there are balance issues." My response would be, so what? There are balance issues now. Release the patch, let us see what we think, then respond to how we recieve it. Relic should be responding to the community, not the community to Relic. We paid for the game.

[Stazbumpa]

But if the community are talking out of their collective arses then Relic releasing a patch that pandered to their whims would only be counter productive.

For example: a lot of people here whinge about Dreadnoughts and scream nerf at every opportunity. To nerf them would go against the grain of what a Dreadnought is, same with Scouts. Same with PSM.
Most of the nerf cries result from bad tactics and massive doses of "I'm not playing anymore unless you fix this".

There isnt a lot that actually needs fixing in this game, and most of what does is .lua typos. Its one of the better out-of-the-box games I've played to be quite honest, and I've been doing this since ZX Spectrum days.

[Moe]

Since you people love to compare this game to Starcraft, I'd like to point out that it took eight patches and three years to balance SC. You are already screaming bloody murder after three months.

[gadom]

Moe is right let give them time!!!
but do they have time when you see all the mods in progress that gonna made problem of balancing too :-)

[|AXiN|]

For example: a lot of people here whinge about Dreadnoughts and scream nerf at every opportunity. To nerf them would go against the grain of what a Dreadnought is, same with Scouts. Same with PSM.
Most of the nerf cries result from bad tactics and massive doses of "I'm not playing anymore unless you fix this".

There isnt a lot that actually needs fixing in this game, and most of what does is .lua typos. Its one of the better out-of-the-box games I've played to be quite honest, and I've been doing this since ZX Spectrum days.

Then, to be quite honest, you need to play it a bit more. While Dread nerfing is a bit iffy, and PSM are a part of easily the weakest race in the game, Scouts are obscene. And I say this as a SM player. Scouts are just obscene. For more info, ask Havoc

There are many, many balance issues to be addressed (two words - Warp Spiders), and there are a fair number of technical issues to resolve (AMD+nForce2+ATI = no DoW).

The basic problem is that yes, this is a good game. Yes, it has potential. No, the developers aren't forthcoming. And most importantly, yes, the 'pro' players are starting to leave.

Ask yourself this (the community, not just Stazbumpa) - why is it that the majority of the 1.2 comment threads and the compaints come from the most hardcore players? Who then immediately get fanboys and 'for fun' players telling them that they're wrong. The 'for fun' and fanboys aren't playing for keeps the same way that the hardcore players are. And those guys need an absolutely balanced game, or one which feels like it's getting support. The feel of DoW is that the devs are brushing these guys' concerns off.

And no, I'm not a hardcore player. I suck

[keroppilee]

I have an nforce 2 with a barton 2800+ amd athlon and an ati 9700 non pro and my dawn of war works fine.

[gadom]

i didn't knew pro player where leaving this game,
that quite important.
That's means that's there is really a problem with balancing.
Bu i would like to know how % of the people use ork,eldar,SM and chaos
i'm sure the majority are on SM and chaos