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Patch 1.2 - The Inside Story...

  1. Company of Heroes Senior Member  #151
    "The 'for fun' and fanboys aren't playing for keeps the same way that the hardcore players are."
    Umm I hate to ask, but what exactly do they get to keep? I'm pretty sure the "for fun" bit was what the Dev was striving for. Just a stab in the dark though really.

    If what you say is true then apparently those players should be the most patient since they have the most to gain, err I mean keep.

    I assume this Forum is regularly archived because if some of the suggestions asked for get implemented, due to vocal noise, it will be good to be able to go back and see what the thoughts of the time were when the new whines begin. It is a vicious loop really.

    You know the old addage. "You can Please some..." yada yada yada!

  2. #152
    Stazbumpa
    Guest
    If Pro players are leaving then all I can say is "so what?". the game doesn't need them, no game needs them. Most of them are arseholes anyway.

    And yes, I have met some.

  3. #153
    |AXiN|
    Guest
    Quote Originally Posted by Stazbumpa
    If Pro players are leaving then all I can say is "so what?". the game doesn't need them, no game needs them. Most of them are arseholes anyway.
    The thing is, the game does need them. The pro players are the ones who keep the game alive, and who bring in the new meat after the initial 'new game' period. Look at Starcraft, or even the infamous Counterstrike. Do you really think either of them would be where they are today without pro players? Both games are, because of the support of pro players, staples at every gaming contest.

    Yeah, some of them may be arseholes, but they're necessary arseholes. People who play just for fun are great, but, just don't take the game seriously enough for competition, and with competition comes longevity. I mean, Starcraft is six years old. Who the hell plays a six year old game?

    (BTW, sorry to keep quoting you - nothing personal)

    Quote Originally Posted by gadom
    Bu i would like to know how % of the people use ork,eldar,SM and chaos
    i'm sure the majority are on SM and chaos
    Last I heard it was something like 22% of people on Chaos. Chaos is dramatically underpowered, for reasons that are kind of hard to pin down (For example, Cultists. Without nades, are overpriced at 2 pop. With, though...) This is especially noticable when you look at the competitive ranking, with their absolute dearth of Chaos accounts. Most of the Chaos accouts in there are good Eldar/Ork/SM players trying to see if they can do it as Chaos anyway.

    Quote Originally Posted by Dymo
    Umm I hate to ask, but what exactly do they get to keep? I'm pretty sure the "for fun" bit was what the Dev was striving for. Just a stab in the dark though really.

    If what you say is true then apparently those players should be the most patient since they have the most to gain, err I mean keep.
    Why should they bother to be patient? They need a good, balanced game now. Or else they'll drop it and move onto something else. And when I say they're playing for keeps, I mean that they are playing in an extremely competitive way with winning at all costs being the objective. Don't troll, it's impolite.

    Quote Originally Posted by keroppilee
    I have an nforce 2 with a barton 2800+ amd athlon and an ati 9700 non pro and my dawn of war works fine.
    And I have a AMD 64 3200+, nForce2 and ati 9800pro, and can run it. The problem isn't universal. Go to the technical issues forum for information.

  4. Company of Heroes Senior Member  #154
    "Don't troll, it's impolite.
    Be nice. You almost hurt my feelings...

    I won't (troll) anymore if you promise to not come in here and try and tell us what has already been said a thousand times, anymore. Fair enough?

    Without a search engine online, it does makes it hard to find stuff, but what your talking about, its easy to find and has already been said. Best part is that if your right, then no need to worry yourself about it. The game will be long dead before you get to return and tell us that you were right.

    Play the game, become an expert and don't leave. That would be one less lost to the abyss.

    It's a game. It is Fun. Sure it has some issues when you dig deep enough. Sounds like standard fair to me.

    Happy New Year btw. CYA in 2005

  5. #155
    Lets keep the arguements confined to PM please, don't need them here.

  6. #156
    2-nephilim
    Guest
    Guys you should read an article in the latest PC Gamer (uk edition, page 22). Its all about how hard game developing staff have to work. It also has some quotes:

    "I dont see long hours and crunch times going away - that's just part of the industry..."

    "The absoloute utter lack of respect for workers as people who have lives is disgusting. Skilled workers are dedicating their entire lives to the production of these titles - but a request for humane conditions is rewarded with disdain and dismissal."

    "Game developers are grossly underpaid. When you factor in the horrific work schedule, you are probably worse off than if you were in a sweatshop in Indonesia."

    The quotes are anonymous and are not pointed at any individual software house but at the industry in general. With That in mind maybe we should cut the guys at Relic some slack, be grateful for what we have and look forward to whatever the guys at Relic give us. This aint an ass kissing post and i know that everything in print should not be taken as fact, but from what little i know about the industry it seems to ring true.

  7. #157
    Wanna get a mint? General Blaze's Avatar
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    Took the words right out of my mouth.

  8. #158
    Xes Haereticum
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    First of all - hi to all you guys here.
    Been following the forums for a bit now while enjoying the game and felt to respond here.

    I'd like some of the guys here to give Relic a break. If you just simply look at ANY game that came out in the last couple years and came name a flawless one I'd be happily eating my words, but I dare say there ain't.

    I'm not that much of a high end player yet so I might not have encountered some of the inbalances it has, but one thing I know for fact.
    Relic has made (parts) of the Wh40K universe come alive for me in a way I could have only dreamed of so far. Provided I'm a big fan of the Games Workshop TTs, I still love to see my orcs set shop on the map while gearing up to mosh away the enemy. So I dun even have an issue with building a base in this game o_O ... never thought I'd actually say something like this, ever.
    Yet I'm far from wanting to sound like what some call a fanboy. I too have encountered some disconnects, and yeah stuff like that can be annoying.
    But I take it from what some ppl post here that no matter what Relic does they're dissatisfied.
    I strongly believe if the devs gave info on a patch like 2 months early, they'd get flamed to hell and back in the second the patch is out and one of the announced features was missing.
    On the other hand, the devs too get flamed for not announcing anything until close to release. WTF.... this game is 4 months old and to me it seems more polished than games which are way older.

    Take Eve Online, a mmo I just recently quit my subscription for (after 1 1/2 years, mainly out of boredom with the game finally). They get constant funding, yet still they have issues on a regular basis. Servers not working, unscheduled downtimes, patch that fubar royally, ppl losing their hard earned stuff they took 2 weeks to get to a bug in a split second etc...
    Or take Soldner Secret Wars, a game that came out so buggy that it was basically unplayable.
    Or Soldiers - Heroes of WW2. The dev team being nice enough to beef up the mp part and delivering everything they said the release version would have and then moving on.
    No mod tools released nothing, so eventually, the community is gonna be extinct. And NO word from the devs, just some community liason guy on the Codemasters forums saying that the devs stopped working on Soldiers to move on to another project.

    With all that in mind, Relic is doing very well, have delivered a kick ass game and I am sure are on a good way to provide us with lots of fun throughout 2005.
    Relic wants this community apparently, Relic even actively supports modding and on top of all that, unlike other game devs, they at least show some dedication by coming to these forums and respond despite the flames and whines.
    And oh yeah... if pro gamers give up on games after 4 months, there is not going to be many pro gamers in new games soon cause NO game is going to be 100 % balanced and all polished on release (they always have the option of playing console games online btw ^^). That's the current state of the industry and there ain't nothing we can do about it.

  9. #159
    |AXiN|
    Guest
    The pro players eem to be beginning to give up because of the lack of communications from Relic. If they felt that their issues were being addressed, or even that the devs were up to date on what is going on, they probably wouldn't have such a bad reaction, but the fact is that even when threads like this one come up, the devs rarely post. The vast majority of favourable posts in these threads are from pro-Relic fans and fanboys, which is nice to see in that it's nice for any company to have a loyal following, but the pro players, and not a small number of casuals like myself, would like to have more communication with Relic and a greater understanding of what's going on with regard to the game and to patching and so forth.

  10. #160
    Wanna get a mint? General Blaze's Avatar
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    That's true. The truth is because they DON'T want to make empty promises. Like a certain publisher did for Homeworld 2. He kept posting that they promised that they'll fix this and that. Few months later, his promises go unheeded and then left the community to escape the heat. Relic had decided they'd rather give info when they're ready and waiting then to just announce it to everybody straight away, and later discover that they couldn't do it just yet. Think about it.

  11. #161
    Stazbumpa
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    My beef with the pro gamers comments is that if they are leaving because they think Relic isnt making the game the way they want it then good riddance to them, because its Relic's and GW's game, not theirs.

    I just have issues with what basically amounts to a few uber-geeks telling a company how things should be done.

  12. #162
    Wanna get a mint? General Blaze's Avatar
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    Yeah. Plus, it's the uber geeks that caused Battlezone's developer to breakdown and scream at them ever since he made a few new changes to the sequel.

    I'm a geek myself, but those people have taken it too far.

  13. #163
    Relic Entertainment Tacit's Avatar
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    Relic had decided they'd rather give info when they're ready and waiting then to just announce it to everybody straight away, and later discover that they couldn't do it just yet.
    Exactly.

    AXin...we're aware that the game is not perfect, and we're 'up to date' on the situation. Thanks!
    Raphael van Lierop
    Producer
    Relic Entertainment

  14. #164
    That's 1_Alpha on Gameranger
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    The pro gamers can go take a leap for all I care, lets look at numbers shall we?

    How many pro-gamers are there for every casual gamer, .000001, .00001, .0001, .001? The fact is there are FAR fewer 'pro-gamers' than there are casual gamers, so listening to the demands of a very few gamers who are more interested in being #1 than if the game is a quality title for the casual gamer is simple folly. Now that isn't to say they don't have good points or have listed rediculous suggestions, it is simpley a matter of economics. You fix the problems so the LARGE number of casual gamers can casual game, you fix the balance at a SLOWER pace so as not to throw it totally out of wack. Unfortunatly these 'pro-gamers' are too impatient to wait around for the game to get to that point.

    If you don't have the patience, posting won't improve your demeanor. Insisting you are the sole person capable of, or qualified to, argue balance on any game just shows how worthless your opinion really is, that and how big your ego is.
    There is power in words.

  15. #165
    Wanna get a mint? General Blaze's Avatar
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    Tacit's back! Whee!

    seriously Tacit. The crowd's getting restless. Work your way on Patch 1.3 and we'll be ready and waiting. (Just make sure it's a big one this time. We don't want another 1.2 incident.)

  16. #166
    |AXiN|
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    Quote Originally Posted by Alpha_1
    How many pro-gamers are there for every casual gamer, .000001, .00001, .0001, .001? The fact is there are FAR fewer 'pro-gamers' than there are casual gamers, so listening to the demands of a very few gamers who are more interested in being #1 than if the game is a quality title for the casual gamer is simple folly. Now that isn't to say they don't have good points or have listed rediculous suggestions, it is simpley a matter of economics. You fix the problems so the LARGE number of casual gamers can casual game, you fix the balance at a SLOWER pace so as not to throw it totally out of wack. Unfortunatly these 'pro-gamers' are too impatient to wait around for the game to get to that point.
    But economics are the point. Without pro-gamers, how long do you think, say, Counterstrike would have lasted? A year maybe, so that's not even beta 6. But wait, hold on, pro gamers got into the game, decided it had potential, was alive and kicking, and now you have Counterstrike being sold as a standalone and CS:Source shipping with Half-Life 2. Those few, evil pro-gamers wrecked the community. Or not.

    Pro-gamer provide post-release publicity and bring in new players, which means new purchases. Do you really think they'd still be selling Starcraft if noone was buying it? And people buy games that old only if they know that they're being played. And who's that playing them again? That's right, the pro-gamers. The large numbers of casual gamers aren't as vital, because they don't bring in anywhere near as many new players.

    Of course, with this game, the situation is a little off, because it's a conversion to PC of an enormously successful (if obscenely overpriced) tabletop wargame. But just because you feel that there aren't many pro players, or that you don't like them, or whatever, doesn't mean that you can dismiss their influence on the lifespan of a game. But they'll only contribute to that if they feel, at an early stage, that the game is going somewhere. And from what I can see, they aren't feeling that way. Hopefully, with the return of the devs (Hi Tacit) we'll see a new patch soonish, and some of the problems will be fixed.

    Quote Originally Posted by Tacit
    AXiN...we're aware that the game is not perfect, and we're 'up to date' on the situation. Thanks!
    This is good. Communication. Is good. But could be a little more verbose.

    Oh, and
    Quote Originally Posted by General_Blaze
    We don't want another 1.2 incident
    yeah. That was messy.

  17. Company of Heroes Senior Member  #167
    Umm... |AXiN| This may seem strange but, this sentence does not make economic sense.

    "The large numbers of casual gamers aren't as vital, because they don't bring in anywhere near as many new players.
    The emphasis being on the 'large numbers bit'. Without large numbers of any type of gamer, pro or casual, a game goes no where.

    Do you currently play Starcraft competitively and on a regular basis? The reason I ask is you seem to compare DoW to SC alot, so it seems proper that you would be playing both games to assure each games survival.

  18. #168
    Stazbumpa
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    Quote Originally Posted by Alpha_1
    You fix the problems so the LARGE number of casual gamers can casual game, you fix the balance at a SLOWER pace so as not to throw it totally out of wack. Unfortunatly these 'pro-gamers' are too impatient to wait around for the game to get to that point.

    If you don't have the patience, posting won't improve your demeanor. Insisting you are the sole person capable of, or qualified to, argue balance on any game just shows how worthless your opinion really is, that and how big your ego is.
    Fear the truth when it is spoken, especially the last bit. As I say, pro-gamers are in the tiny minority. As for the suggested effect of pro-gamers on CS, well that was a Half Life mod folks, and I understand that Half Life sold really rather well because it was good rather than a few supposed professionals making it sell because of their wonderful endorsement.

    Michael Jordan on a Wheaties box, they ain't.

  19. #169
    That's 1_Alpha on Gameranger
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    You really think CS would have lasted only a year without the CPL or other gaming leagues? Correct me if I'm wrong but CS had over 50000 servers running back in 1999-2000, 50000 servers, with just 10% of those servers populated that is still 5000 servers with people on them, I can remember getting results of 100000 players or more online. CS didn't survive because of pro-gamers, it survived because it provided a twist on the standard deathmatch. Team play is usually more fun than pure deathmatch. Casual gamers laying CS kept it alive not the few hundred/thousand pro-gamers.

    Face it, without casual gamers pro-gamers wout not have a pro-game to play, you don't buy enough games between you to keep the industry running, casual gamers provide the funds for that.

  20. Child's Play Donor Technical Help Senior Member General Discussions Senior Member Homeworld Senior Member Forum Subscriber  #170
    Finally done. Moe's Avatar
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    Unsticking this now. Feel free to continue the discussion, the thread will be left open.

  21. #171
    |AXiN|
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dymo
    The emphasis being on the 'large numbers bit'. Without large numbers of any type of gamer, pro or casual, a game goes no where.

    Do you currently play Starcraft competitively and on a regular basis? The reason I ask is you seem to compare DoW to SC alot, so it seems proper that you would be playing both games to assure each games survival.
    About the economic bit, my reasoning is that by now most of the casual crowd have already bought the game. The only real way to get more money out of them is with an expansion, which may or may not be in the works, depending who you talk to. Pro gamers, otoh, keep the game alive and visible, thus encouraging more people, both pro-hopefuls and casuals, to get into the game.

    As for SC - no, I'm actually not a fan, it just always seems to come up. I'm far from the only person using it as an example, and it seems to be one most people are familiar with. Basically, I'm doing the bandwagon thing

    Quote Originally Posted by Alpha_1
    You really think CS would have lasted only a year without the CPL or other gaming leagues? Correct me if I'm wrong but CS had over 50000 servers running back in 1999-2000, 50000 servers, with just 10% of those servers populated that is still 5000 servers with people on them, I can remember getting results of 100000 players or more online. CS didn't survive because of pro-gamers, it survived because it provided a twist on the standard deathmatch. Team play is usually more fun than pure deathmatch. Casual gamers laying CS kept it alive not the few hundred/thousand pro-gamers.
    Well, yes, that's exactly what I'm saying. Sort of When I say pro-gaming, I don't just mean CPL and so forth, but the groups behind them, in particular the clans. Clans are the basis of competitive gaming, especially in FPSs. When you have a look at a given server of CS, either now or back then or any time in between, somewhere between half and three quarters of the open-to-everyone servers will be clanners. That's just the open ones, not including the clan or otherwise specific ones.

    One of the big things which turned me off CS was the fact that as a game it in fact doesn't support team play any more than Q3's TDM. The whole element of teams simply lowers the number of people you can shoot at. Compare it to DoD, or FarCry's Assault mode, which really do encourage teamplay by forcing team members to cooperate and rely upon each other.

    The vast majority of the CS scene is and was pro gamers. Of those 100 000 players you reckon you saw, I'd say at least 60 000 if not more were pro. Go to a given CS forum and have a look at how many clan tags are floating around. It is a pro gamer's game. The fact that so many pro gamers were willing to take up CS is what kept CS selling. Another element, of course, is that obviously many casual gamers bought the game, and then turned pro.

    Pro gamers, in general, take games far too seriously. I'm certainly not one, especially not of DoW, which I suck at too much. Pro gamers are not necessarily getting paid. Professional here doesn't refer to doing it for cash, but to doing it all day, every day, as the major event in their lives.

  22. #172
    Xes Haereticum
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    But then referring to those ppl as pro gamers is kinda wrong... rather consider them geeks ^^ (I'd include me there any day )
    And don't forget - the vast majority of the clans forms once the game is out, not before.
    And how many of those clans are actually just a buncha guys doing their clan thingy for fun? How many are serious about it?
    When in your estimation 60 k players play CS pro/geek style, I dare say most of them got hooked by the initial Half Life in the first place. Remember CS used to be a mod....

    Same can be said about BF 1942. That game attracted many ppl for MANY reasons. Some might have seen chances that it might offer decent competitive gaming, some were just attracted by the WW2 setting and the ability of using vehicles from that era, and some (including me) play any WW2 based game with a passion. And then came Desert Combat. Suddenly many ppl not only played it for a change but switched over to it. Hardly something the mod team could have expected.
    And you just need to look at WHICH companies make those insanely popular games - companies that have the funds to not only support them almost indefinately, but also are so well funded that they can afford insane marketing campaigns.
    Take Blizzard's SC for example.
    Then another thing. SC and CS were the ones to come nearly first, with Warcraft back then being the only true competition to Starcraft.
    People who get good in a game after a while tend to stick with it (Tribes 1+2, despite Vengeance being out, still have one hell of a community).

    The one question that arises is ... how on earth does a dev team know right off the bat if their game is gonna attract those competitive players?
    They can only do their best in trying to balance it well, advertise it, keep the amount of bugs to a minimum and hope it sells well... and then all that is left to do is make sure to do as much for the community as needed to attract more ppl (forums can be very helpful for potential customers to see how a game is doing, I know that first hand since after checking the Soldner - Secret Wars forums I avoided the game like the plague ^^).

    So in conclusion, if anything its the genre's freaks/geeks to keep a game alive imo - those also get the word out to ppl. I think their number exceeds the amount of ppl playing games in a dead serious competitive way by far.

  23. #173
    Wait...

    You just say... ppl's in Clans = Pro gamers?

    lol?

    Anyway, I think you have a good point. A game needs Progamers to be in the News. A game whitout them drains out (Battle Realms anyone?)

  24. #174
    Stazbumpa
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    Heartily disagree. A game sells because it is good and/or has decent marketing. I mean, take The Sims for fecks sake; how many pro-gamers play that? And we cant seem to shift the bloody thing off the No1 slot over here (and it aint coz its good either).

    As someone said, the uber-geeks that play games too much ain't pro's in any sense of the word. They are actually the ones we laugh at because they are so sad.
    There are VERY FEW professional gamers in the world today, and I can't think of any names to be quite honest.

    And absolutely none have for one second made me want to buy a game.

  25. #175
    Vajper
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    Just fix the router-induced (we think) lag/delay bug detailed in a couple of places on the technical assistance forum and I'll be happy.

  26. #176
    Resident AI guy thudmeizer's Avatar
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    Just fix the router-induced (we think) lag/delay bug detailed in a couple of places on the technical assistance forum and I'll be happy.
    Actually, many PC games have Router/NAT issues. DoW's is easy to fix (if you have more than 1 Router/NAT connecting to, say, your DirectIP game, go into yer TCP/IP setting and add a second IP - this workaround is for the ones using Router/NATs!). Works great in DoW and we've had up to 5 people DirectIPed some with Routers and some direct-connected. Still.. Hope Relic fixes this long outstanding prob!! Seems silly as most of the users out there have Routers/NATs due to Internet hacking/malware attacks..

  27. #177
    lowlander
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    just remember , almost every one that playes WH40K TT will buy and play this game , and a expansion if adding a race like TAU or Tyranids will bring in more TT players "WOW MY (instert race here ) ROCK in this game ".
    LOL
    I like the game so far very much, I dont play Starcraft and more thats for my 10 year old son LOL

  28. #178
    Member SgtSteve's Avatar
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    Lowlander has an excellent point! There's a lot of other races out there, and adding them in would surely attract the table top veterans of those forces. I personally know one Dark Eldar and another Tyranid (well, more a genestealer cult army really) that have seen his game, but not bought it yet. If their respective army choices became available, even if it was through the mod community, they've both said they would buy it in a heartbeat.

    To be honest, they're both close to buying it already, and likely will as they are also huge fans of the 40K genre in general. Still, as Lowlander said, more races would surely equal a larger player base.

    Wouldn't it?
    No signature today. Perhaps tomorrow.

  29. #179
    Resident AI guy thudmeizer's Avatar
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    hehe.. Tell those War40k TT Clans that both a DE and Nid Mod are inbound and watch their face light up! I think if more TTers knew about the community rallying to ensure all War40k civs are represented in DoW even if Relic/THQ decide not to go forward with more expansions passed the expected first one, then I bet you'd see a flood here. Alas, I can't just walk into a GamesWorkshop and start advertising about Dawn Of War as it apparently will hurt the TT business to hype it there. No imagine if all civs were in DoW over the course of the next 2-5 months? Should be bloody fun to see what the clans will do and how their contributions will be to the online community here.

  30. #180
    bubbapook
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    Personally, I've been playing the game since the beta, and call me a casual gamer but these hardcore moody types that flame you if you choose the wrong BO get on my tits. If the uber-competetive 'pro' players are the ones that are supposedly keeping this game alive, as opposed to the people that actually play for fun, then I'm thinking its time to choose a new game for my latenight multiplayer exploits.

    As for the Devs, I take my hat off to em. I play with a couple of the testers, and they are constantly working on the game - unlike some people that just love to complain around here, they are genuinely working on whatever they're given; they dont always have the luxury of saying right, im gonna work on chaos balance all day. IMHO, any and all support they give us is welcome, as they're simply trying to extend our enjoyment of the game, and that should be applauded.

  31. #181
    EzyKill
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    I'm Impressed by this post how ever I think Relic has been fixing the wrong things and leaving the worst issues ignored.

  32. #182
    Wanna get a mint? General Blaze's Avatar
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    To each his own actually. YOU may think that they're fixing the wrong things, but what of the others? Also, if the concentrated only on what YOU want fixed firts, then others will still complain. It's a vicious cycle. No matter which they fix first, NO ONE will be truly satisfied.

  33. #183
    This is my boomstick! TBS's Avatar
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    what are the worst issues in your opinion?

  34. #184
    That's 1_Alpha on Gameranger
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    I'm satisfied that we have recieved more than one patch, I'm also satisfied that it will not be the last one either.

    As far as I'm concerned the meer fact THQ is keeping Relic patching this game is enough reason for me to anticipate the next product Relic is going to put out, especially since THQ is going to be footing the production bill for it.

    THQ > Sierra, that is good enough for me to look forward to NSP5 (or is it 6?).

  35. #185
    Bonestein
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    I for one would have rather have you fix the NAT problem before any other problem.. It took all of 4 hours to beat the game and so my friends and I wanted to play online via Direct Host and Direct Join, but no. you have to jump through hoops and get disconnected and it really sucks.

    questions are always, have you connected directly to your modem yet? yes, no one else in my house can use their internet connections, but I can connect now.

    or if you take your computer to a friends house, and try to connect via direct join to another friend, you can connect when both people are behind the same router, BUT, one of you is going to get kicked out of the game 2-5 minutes into it.

    small bugs don't need to be fixed before large bugs.

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