What exactly are horror squads good for i have played in many 3v3 chaos only matches to find noone including myself is actually using them, are they just to annoy the enemy?
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What exactly are horror squads good for i have played in many 3v3 chaos only matches to find noone including myself is actually using them, are they just to annoy the enemy?
they are good at range v infantry i think, or is it heavy, just all the chaos players hate them because they cant reinforce i think.
they are actually quite good as fire support against all type of infantry (low/heavy) and so-so against early vehicles. but fo 300/100, only 5 non-reinforçable horrors with awfull morale and that miss target once every two shoots... they are actually good at... nothing. ^_^
#4
Moving to chaos strategy.
once every 2 shots yes but they fire like 4 shots every second!
Imho, if there's one type of unit less worth than Oblis, it's horrors.
lets see, 300/100 for horrors at a full squad which can deepstrike at tier one.
a horror squad is about the equivalent of an 8 man marine squad with 4 plasma rifles, total cost is about 560/40 (correct me if im wrong).
horrors start with something around 500 life unupgraded and marines start with 300.
when horrors break morale (very rare) they're damage is increased while marines is decreased
horrors are far from useless, if horrors could reinforce they'd be better then marines easily.
Saias:
Correcting you
Horrors average damage is terrible, CSM plasma hits more often and nearly as hard un-upgrade, the damage can be upgraded to far surpass the horrors and the reinforcment+champ allows the CSM to field just as many plasma and have nearly 2x the total hp. Cost effeciency to unit potential the horrors are heavily outwieghed and nobody has enough power to use enough horrors in teir1 to be of real use, which is the only time they are superior to Tac squad plasma.
I like them because they're deamons and pop right out of the warp. Can plasma marines do that? No, didn't think so.
They don't get too many negatives when they move, so they are great dancers.
:cdance:
Wheeeeee, dance horrors dance
Horrors dance extremely wellWait, horror damage goes up when broken? Where did you hear that?
its was in one of the old threads abouts horror morale, i think its called "Wait horrors have morale now?".
Servant of khorne tell that to the chaos player i just killed, horrors vs chaos space marines and i won.
from what i know marine plasma does about 15 dps where as horrors do about 40.
horrors are very usable early game, how many csm squads do most have before tier one, 2 or 3? with horrors u can get just as many with a good build order....beleive me horrors are very usable in tier one.
#12
Horrors are insanely good for a Tier 1 unit. And unlike PSM they don't need a ton of Tier 2 upgrades to be useful.
Let's Play Europa Universalis 3: Divine Wind
Let's Play Master of Magic: Abandoned
In the beginning there was nothing. Then Steam crashed.
just for the record, a horror squad will kill a squad of 4-5 possessed in melee.
#14
![[Vertigo]'s Avatar](avatars/avatar30739_14.gif "[Vertigo]'s Avatar"){kind=avatar}
I just did this awhile ago, so let me dig up some numbers for you guys.
Originally Posted by {Vertigo}
What happens in Greenville, SC stays in Greenville, SC.
#15
Horrors however can deepstrike and are Tier 1, plasma is tier 2. Plus horrors are harder to kill without bionics than a CSM with both.
Horrors are here to be used early in game.
To have plasmas you have to wait an insane amount of time, building armory and then go to tier 2. Then you also have to build plasmas.
Just use them against units that cannot damage daemons and your victory is assured.
If you are at Tier 2 or 3 use them as reinforcements if you're in the enemy base and you can't wait for other troops to reach you.
#17
The Sac Pit cost just as much as the teir 2 upgrade. Which one will you pick after you lay down an armory and a power generator?
The Sac Pit can be actually built after the Temple is operational, and even without upgrades, Possesed Space Marines are quite a unit, especially if you know that your enemy do not has tier 2 tech. An Horror/PSM combo when your opponet is waiting for tier 2 is a very tough rush to stall.
the point is that you don't have to wait for tiers 2 if the other is fielding PSM/horrors, you should already be there, as the sac pits cover going to tiers 2 alone, and one single squad of horrors is more expensive than the armory.
horrors do find in 2v2 or 3v3, where you can afford to let the other teammates do the teching up, but in 1v1, it is a very self damaging unit to go for.
Without upgrades, PSM can be negated by dancing alone, which hurts their efficiency terribly at tiers 1.
I'd take horrors over PSM under any circumstance at tiers 1
I have beaten a CSM with cultists without grenade launchers"Saias"
Servant of khorne tell that to the chaos player i just killed, horrors vs chaos space marines and i won.
Never had this happen when I was testing, the terrible melee accuracy and lower initial HP of horrors always seemed to get them killed though they did hold out well considering they are primarily a ranged unit."Saias"
just for the record, a horror squad will kill a squad of 4-5 possessed in melee.
i know what ur saying about plasma vs horrors..it makes sense plasma would do more damage beeing a higher tier upgrade (and most expensive) but too many people consider horrors as expensive when they really arent.
in a typical 1vs1 automatch vs chaos ill usually see 2 cultist squads, a chaos lord and 2 marine squads, if u reinforce say 2 marines per squad thats already another 200 req and they're still weaker then horrors.
whereas when i use my horror build i can have 2 cultists, chaos lord and 2 horror squads to deepstrike at any moment, overwatch horrors at the sac pit and when those cultists die u can deepstrike another horror squad instantly whereas with chaos marines if the squad dies you have to walk them over + the fact horrors are already effiecent vs marines whereas tier 1marines arent efficient vs horrors.
serventofkhorne im as suprised as you were but i tested it a few times and a fresh squad of horrors melee'd a squad of 5 possessed to death with between 1 and 2 horrors left, this goes to prove that even though horrors have poor accuracy they can still take the a half squad of the toughest tier 1 melee squad down.
huhu, unless the PSM were broken before the fight, or you had 5 other squads of horrors firing at them, there is no way they would lose to an horror squad in CC, as even normal marines win against horrors in CC(thought vs PSM, horrors could dance/fire at them to death...)
The horrors DPS in melee is not that great so saying you have beaten a PSM with them won't change their stats
Horrors could be great indeed, but going for the sacrificial pit at tiers 1 in 1v1 is a win or die move as you'll be so late getting to tiers 2 that you'll have to cripple the other player before he can do that.
for me, the main problem with horrors is not their cost, or their lack of reinforcement abilities, but the fact they only shine at tiers 1, while the cost of the sac pits makes building it so early too risky.
#23
Actually last I checked horrors would beat their cost in SM/CSM plasma marines. They do a bit less damage, but they have close to double the hitpoints and are cheaper. So even in Early Tier 2 they're quite respectable. Its when vehicles come out that they have problems.
They are good for rushes as some infiltrating cultists can get them into the enemy base early on.
#25
Sadly infiltrate doesnt come out till Tier 2.
Actually, it's interesting. Horrors have a pretty high base melee damage value (56 - 69) and the average melee reload (1 second), it's just their terrible accuracy (30%) and lousy armour penetration values for most units that set them back in melee. 32% vs heavy_inf med, for example. However... Their armour penetration vs. monster_med is surprisingly good (~78%), which makes them sorta-kinda effective against other demons like Possessed and... Horrors.huhu, unless the PSM were broken before the fight, or you had 5 other squads of horrors firing at them, there is no way they would lose to an horror squad in CC, as even normal marines win against horrors in CC(thought vs PSM, horrors could dance/fire at them to death...)
The horrors DPS in melee is not that great so saying you have beaten a PSM with them won't change their stats
Possessed actually only have a 32% armour penetration value vs. monster_med, so despite their higher base damage value, they actually do less damage per hit (though they are more than twice as accurate @ 65%, heh). Considering that Possessed only have 145 HP more than Horrors at tier one (670 and 525, respectively), it's not inconceivable that Horrors might be able to take down a few Possessed.
thank you IronLegionnaire, you proved exactly how horrors can kill 4-5 psm in melee.
horrors may be statiscally weaker to some units but everyones missing the big picture DEEPSTRIKE, do you have any idea how usefull deepstrike is, especially in larger 1vs1 maps where walking to the fight would mean a loss.
the fact that you can deepstrike horrors and just keep them on overwatch to carry on deepstriking is great.
i do agree though that if you screw up you're gonna be pretty screwed but the only time ive failed using the horror strategy so far is when someone managed to get very early possessed.
I am interested to see how you are beating people with horrors Saias. In my experiances the biggest problems I have had with horrors was keeping them out of melee with the meat shields, since they cost more power in teir1 they end up like PSM, very difficult to field in much numbers while the enemy builds more units that cost no power and simply overwhelm the horrors since they can divert what power they do have in to upgrades for troops or upgrades to income, orks simply overan my horrors.
Also you said horrors are not expensive and I agree that for what you get they are very cheap, the unit is extremely cost effective but that doesn't really seem to matter as much when your locking yourself in a set number of troops that can only have HP upgrades and almost guarantees you that you will be achieving teir2 later than the enemy.
The deepstriking capability is fairly nice on horrors since they come as a full squad, the problem I have with this is that deepstriking them to base assault when they lack the damage to structures that a larger standing army of regular troops can do and i have never faced an opponent that split his/her forces so when I have tried to DS they usually mauled SP's and base while i tried to do what little damage I could to lite structures and SP's.
#29
Try it as a followthrough to the cultist rush, for example. Cultists provide the numbers while horrors provide the quality, it works better than you might think.
horrors suck. No sane person will spend 300/100/3 on a squad in tier 1 when he has max 5 lps without upgrades. 2 marine sqauds will hump horrors because thats what theyre worth. sacpit+horror. See who wins.
#31
2 Unreinforced Marine squads beat 1 Horror squad? I don't think so...
One squad chase the horrors for CC while the other is firing on them.
I think the 2 marines squad should win that way.
IK.
generalelectric, horrors are 300/100/2.
the biggest difference with horrors vs chaos marines (in cost) is you're using power over requisition, to get a marine squad or chaos marine squad to the same strenght in tier 1 you need a squad size of at least 8 which is 400 requisition but no power....and to reinforce those units takes time thus the power of deepstriking before they can reinforce units.
the requisition you would normally be spending on reinforcing you can spend on power generators and as you're spending less requistion you can reach tier 2 sooner then you think.
IMO, horros' price is just fine, the problem is the price of the sac pit. I just cannot figure out how you can afford it in tiers 1, unless you already have a strong edge, as you'll be toast as soon as your opponent will field his first vehicle.
#35
Depends what that first vehicle is. Against Landspeeders and even Wartrakks Horrors put up a surprisingly good fight, they won't win but they'll stave things off long enough to pull out some missile launchers. If they pull out a Dread or Defiler though, you're kind of stuffed.
If you build a SC and horros you wont have any res left to go to tier2 and rokets, against a good Orc player.
to be honest, when i use horrors i rarely even need to get to tier two and i never see vehicles as i have all/most of the points on the map....infact quite often ive got nearly max cap of horrors.
#38
Horrors need some way to reinforce. A full horror squad will beat a vanilla wartrakk, believe it or not. But as they can't reinforce, the next wartrakk will kill them. Or the one after that.
I think they do not benefit from ranged upgrade at the armory, although I could be wrong.
Making them benefit from it would greatly increase their usefulness mid game IMO.
horrors are way better than PSM agaisnt trakks indeed, as they cannot be danced from so easily, but it remains a very cost ineffective tactics.
And even with 60% of the map, the ork player can get trakks so quickly it's not fair (you need 1 rocket squad for each of his stormboyz, BM squad, it won't happen often, so even holding them until you get missiles won't help)
why is it that relic decided NOT to allow Horrors to reinforce? Maybe if we understood this we could see why. Maybe they just become to powerfull and end up like the Cultists in Beta.
they're supposed to be pure deamons and thus uncontrollable i beleive.
actually horrors of slaneesh could be a group of 4 to I think 10 in TT, they were only uncontrollable in that their arival was very unpredictable. Also in TT horrors could be upgraded to flamer horrors which were quite fun.
if 8 horrors were too strong, why not just allow them to reinforce up to their base squad size?
#44
I'd say maybe you can stick them back in the Sacrificial circle, where they automatically reinforce at no cost, the downside being it takes a while to get them there.
as a chaos player let me summarize:
yes, horrors are surprisingly good vs infantery and so-so against heavy infantery for a tier 1 unit + they are demons, with a special armor making lots of units less effective against them + you can deepstrike them + they are perfect fire magnet....
BUT! 1) you have to get a sacrificial pit to get them (which cost the price of getting to tier 2) 2) they cost 300/100/2, with accurracy of 50% and reload time of 1.5s!!! 3) cannot be reinforced...
so if I do some quick calculations, for my first horror squad, it would cost 550/150/2... let's see what a SM player can have for this price: tier 2 + space marine squad + 100/50 used the way I want... if I add the build time of Horrors Vs SM squad's .... hmmm let's see... oh I forgot, to make horrors, I need 300/100 available at once, meaning either I have plenty of ressources (so I am not tier 1, and horrors are more or less useless) or I choose not to upgrade anything, "teching" to horrors so I can spare this amount of ressources and therefore, I am outnumbered or/and technologically dead in the battlefield... wait! I can decide to sac my stronghold to get the ressources! what a gooooood idea!!! (read this sentence with sarcasm and/or irony if you are a good DoW player)
Now, it is democracy so I can't prevent Chaos players to commit suicide by getting early horrors...
To be honnest and to conclude: horrors could be good units, but today, their ratio cost/effectiveness is way too poor compared to other units (including Chaos'). It is just the cherry taste if you are bored with your usual units and are already owning your opponent....
Last edited by Flying_Panda; 29th Dec 04 at 7:40 AM.
2 questions
1) How is it that horrors are good vs infantry, if they fire plasma?
2) Who would be crazy enough to waste 300/100 for a horror squad to send against a PSM squad to which the horrors COULD do SOME damage, when you can have for the same price a PSM squad that WILL do MUCH damage, and will definitely win if you reinforce it more than the enemy's PSM squad?
1) because plasma itself is god vs infantry, not as good as heavy bolter, but at least, it does not have the setup time1) How is it that horrors are good vs infantry, if they fire plasma?
2) Who would be crazy enough to waste 300/100 for a horror squad to send against a PSM squad to which the horrors COULD do SOME damage, when you can have for the same price a PSM squad that WILL do MUCH damage, and will definitely win if you reinforce it more than the enemy's PSM squad?
2)What would be the use of having a unit that could slaughter the ennemy if he was standing still? unupgraded PSM are as slow as the infantry units they are supposed to chase, so they'll never kill anyone, while running away from horrors won't achieve much.
Horrors>PSM at tiers 1, unfortunately, none of them is a viable option anyway because of the cost of the sac pit, which makes purchasing aspect stones looking like a good deal.
#48
I never really understood that line of argument. Sac circle is 250/50, Armory is 175/50. So thats a cost difference of 1 unreinforced cultist squad. Granted you get to Tier 2 later, but you have much better troops available much sooner. Horrors when they come out will beat ANYTHING any other team can field at that point, including things like Reaper squads, assuming you use cultists to temporarily tie down annoying melee units. A couple of horror squads will vaporise an Ork mob in seconds. Even when they get to Tier 2 they still have to fork out for a Machine Cult/Support Portal/Mek Shop before they have anything that will effectively counter horrors (Plasma Marines do NOT counter horrors before you mention them, they have much less hit points, higher cost, and only marginally better dps). All you need to do is make sure you have a horror squad built and waiting for free cap in the Relay whenever possible, so when one of the unreinforceable squads dies you can replace it more or less immediately.
Galdred made the point: at tier 1, they would rock, but no one can afford this at tier 1 as this would mean being overrunned by opponents. And once again, very good analysis of non-upgraded PSM's weakness: speed.
For horrors vs infantery, here's the penetration values of horrors' fire (below are values for marines' plasma):
reload 1.5s, accuracy 50%
Infantry:
Low:42%
Med:77.778%
High:70%
Hvy Infantry:
Med:72%
High:58.824%
Vehicles:
Low:20.571%
Med:13.714%
High:4.286%
Monsters:
Med:58.333%
High:17.143%
Cmndr:28.846%
Plasma (SM/CSM):
reload: 1s, accuracy 65%
Infantry:
Low:33.6%
Med:44.444%
High:32%
Hvy Infantry:
Med:76.8%
High:56.471%
Vehicles:
Low:10.971%
Med:5.76%
High:1.714%
Monsters:
Med:74.667%
High:1.714%
Cmndr:27.693%
@n0z3k1ll3r
-> yep, but we still have to get the armoury anyway to get to tier 2so this means that while we are making a Sac pit, you get the armoury (if not already done) + 75/0 and while I get my first Horror... you are tier 2 + 50/0/2.... and I am still tier 1 with an armoury to buy... guess who will win???
Last edited by Flying_Panda; 29th Dec 04 at 7:38 AM.
#50
I think I should expand on that and put their average DPS values.
Horrors:
Infantry
Low: 12.6
Medium: 23.1
High: 21
Heavy Infantry
Medium: 21.6
High: 17.64
Vehicles
Low: 6.15
Med: 4.11
High: 1.29
Monsters
Med: 17.64
High: 5.13
Cmndr: 8.64
SM Plasma:
Infantry:
Low: 16.8
Med: 22.2
High: 16
Hvy Infantry:
Med: 38.4
High: 28.2
Vehicles:
Low:5.45
Med:2.88
High:0.85
Monsters:
Med: 37.3
High: 0.85
Cmndr: 13.8
As you can see they're pretty close, Plasma having an edge against Heavy Infantry but Horrors doing more against most regular infantry. Factoring in the much higher hp values for horrors (525 as opposed to 300) and the lower cost per model of a horror to a Plasma Marine (60/20 as opposed to 90/10) horrors should thwack Plasma SM pretty badly at range. Again, its the inability to reinforce thats the biggest problem here.
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