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The Logic of Empire [George Bush, the scarry bloke]

  1. #1
    cenpjas
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    The Logic of Empire [George Bush, the scarry bloke]

    [I found his article here : http://www.monbiot.com/dsp_article.cfm?article_id=524 and wondered about optinions ]

    [NB: no flame wars, if you a yank give you opinion on Mr bushy boy, I alwas wonder what you guys think o'him. ]

    The United States is now our foremost enemy. We must begin to treat it as such.
    By George Monbiot. Published in the Guardian 6th August 2002

    There is something almost comical about the prospect of George Bush waging war on another nation because that nation has defied international law. Since Mr Bush came to office, the United States government has torn up more international treaties and disregarded more UN conventions than the rest of the world has done in twenty years.

    It has scuppered the biological weapons convention, while experimenting, illegally, with biological weapons of its own. It has refused to grant chemical weapons inspectors full access to its laboratories, and destroyed attempts to launch chemical inspections in Iraq. It has ripped up the anti-ballistic missile treaty, and appears to be ready to violate the nuclear test ban treaty. It has permitted CIA hit squads to recommence covert operations of the kind which included, in the past, the assassination of foreign heads of state. It has sabotaged the small arms treaty, undermined the international criminal court, refused to sign the climate change protocol and, last month, sought to immobilise the international convention on torture, so that it could keep foreign observers out of its prison camp in Guantanamo Bay. Even its preparedness to go to war with Iraq without a mandate from the UN Security Council is a defiance of international law far graver than Saddam Hussein's non-compliance with UN weapons inspectors.

    But the US government's declaration of impending war has, in truth, nothing to do with weapons inspections. On Saturday, John Bolton, the US official charged, hilariously, with "arms control", told the Today programme that "our policy ... insists on regime change in Baghdad and that policy will not be altered, whether inspectors go in or not." The US government's justification for whupping Saddam has now changed twice. At first, Iraq was named as a potential target because it was "assisting Al-Qaeda". This turned out to be untrue. Then the US government claimed that Iraq had to be attacked because it could be developing weapons of mass destruction, and was refusing to allow the weapons inspectors to find out if this were so. Now, as the promised evidence has failed to materialise, the weapons issue has been dropped. The new reason for war is Saddam Hussein's very existence. This, at least, has the advantage of being verifiable. It should surely be obvious by now that the decision to wage war on Iraq came first, and the justification later.

    Other than the age-old issue of oil supply, this is a war without strategic purpose. The US government is not afraid of Saddam Hussein, however hard it tries to scare its own people. There is no evidence that Iraq is sponsoring terrorism against America. Saddam is well aware that if he attacks another nation with weapons of mass destruction, he can expect to be nuked. He presents no more of a threat to the world than he has done for the past ten years.

    But the US government has several pressing domestic reasons for going to war. The first is that attacking Iraq gives the impression that the flagging "war on terror" is going somewhere. The second is that the people of all super-dominant nations love war. As Bush found in Afghanistan, whacking foreigners wins votes. Allied to this concern is the need to distract attention from the financial scandals in which both the president and vice-president are enmeshed. Already, in this respect, the impending war seems to be working rather well.

    The United States also possesses a vast military-industrial complex, which is in constant need of conflict in order to justify its staggeringly expensive existence. Perhaps more importantly than any of these factors, the hawks who control the White House perceive that perpetual war results in the perpetual demand for their services. And there is scarcely a better formula for perpetual war, with both terrorists and other Arab nations, than the invasion of Iraq. The hawks know that they will win, whoever loses.

    In other words, if the US was not preparing to attack Iraq, it would be preparing to attack another nation. The US will go to war with that country because it needs a country with which to go to war.

    Tony Blair also has several pressing reasons for supporting an invasion. By appeasing George Bush, he placates Britain's right-wing press. Standing on Bush's shoulders, he can assert a claim to global leadership more credible than that of other European leaders, while defending Britain's anomalous position as a permanent member of the Security Council. Within Europe, his relationship with the president grants him the eminent role of broker and interpreter of power.

    By invoking the "special relationship", Blair also avoids the greatest challenge a prime minister has faced since the Second World War. This challenge is to recognise and act upon the conclusion of any objective analysis of global power: namely that the greatest threat to world peace is not Saddam Hussein, but George Bush. The nation which in the past has been our firmest friend is becoming, instead, our foremost enemy.

    As the US government discovers that it can threaten and attack other nations with impunity, it will surely soon begin to threaten countries which have numbered among our allies. As its insatiable demand for resources prompts ever bolder colonial adventures, it will come to interfere directly with the strategic interests of other quasi-imperial states. As it refuses to take responsibility for the consequences of the use of those resources, it threatens the rest of the world with environmental disaster. It has become openly contemptuous of other governments, and prepared to dispose of any treaty or agreement which impedes its strategic objectives. It is starting to construct a new generation of nuclear weapons, and appears to be ready to use them pre-emptively. It could be about to ignite an inferno in the Middle East, into which the rest of the world would be sucked.

    The United States, in other words, behaves like any other imperial power. Imperial powers expand their empires until they meet with overwhelming resistance.

    To abandon the special relationship would be to accept that this is happening. To accept that the US presents a danger to the rest of the world would be to acknowledge the need to resist it. Resisting the United States would be the most daring reversal of policy a British government has undertaken for over 60 years.

    We can resist the US by neither military nor economic means, but we can resist it diplomatically. The only safe and sensible response to American power is a policy of non-cooperation. Britain and the rest of Europe should impede, at the diplomatic level, all US attempts to act unilaterally. We should launch independent efforts to resolve the Iraq crisis and the conflict between Israel and Palestine. And we should cross our fingers and hope that a combination of economic mismanagement, gangster capitalism and excessive military spending will reduce America's power to the extent that it ceases to use the rest of the world as its doormat. Only when the US can accept its role as a nation whose interests must be balanced with those of all other nations can we resume a friendship which was once, if briefly, founded upon the principles of justice.

  2. Child's Play Donor General Discussions Senior Member  #2
    Long distance runner Harmanoff's Avatar
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    Hmm.. calling the US our foremost enemy is a bit over the top. I do agree with most of what he says in that article though.

    I think the US foreign policy is well.. not really that much worse than any other nation. BUT.. the US affects so many more people than any other nation and also, the picture the US presents in the media is a nation that is the righteous defendant of peace and democracy. That bothers me.

    One of the best bits:
    But the US government has several pressing domestic reasons for going to war. The first is that attacking Iraq gives the impression that the flagging "war on terror" is going somewhere.
    I agree fully.

    And then follow a bit more dubious part:
    The second is that the people of all super-dominant nations love war. As Bush found in Afghanistan, whacking foreigners wins votes.
    A bit cynical perhaps but maybe there's some truth in it. I dunno.

    All in all i think he has many good points. He seems like a zealot though, wich take away some credibility.


    Socrates: To be is to do.
    Sartre: To do is to be.
    Sinatra: Do be do be do.

  3. #3
    Daniika Rain
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    The article speaks for itself well enough. The conclusion is maybe a bit on the paranoid side, but not unjustified. As Harmanoff said though, even the illusion of zealotry on the part of the author can hurt his credibility.

    As George Orwell put it: War is Peace, Ignorance is Strength, Hate is Love.

  4. #4
    matt_tone9
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    this article pretty much sums up my views on the cynicism of the Bush government. It would be funny if it wasn't really happenning, but it is, so it isn't.

  5. #5
    Senior Member RBA-Wintrow's Avatar
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    I agree completely.
    However. The situation is not as dire as it seems.
    President Clinton was a good president.
    Bush will remain in power for another 3 years and then someone else gets to clean up his mess.
    Lets hope that person will be more reasonable.

    Btw, Bush can be re-elected once for another 4 years right?

  6. #6
    Jackboot
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    Bush is eligible for re-election once more, in 2004. His present term will expire in January, 2005. If re-elected, he will serve until January, 2009. Several recent polls show that if the election were held today, he would beat any Democratic challenger, assuming the Republicans were not split, which is not a safe assumption today.
    BTW, RBA-not to flame, but how can you predict the results of the elections if you don't know how the system works?

    And Clinton was the most corrupt president in US history. He made even Harding look like a tyro.

  7. #7
    Senior Member RBA-Wintrow's Avatar
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    I thought I knew how the American presidential election system works.
    But after the last elections, I'm not sure anymore.
    It just spiraled into chaos with re-counts and re-recounts.

    At least Clinton didn't break international treaties (Bio, chemical and nuclear control), threaten The Netherlands (over the international court) and release genetically engineerd pests in Colombian rainforests.
    Also the way the treatie agains chemical weapons of mass-destruction was broken is illegal.

    [edit]

    Not to say Europe is any better being lapdog of the US.
    But an allie threathning The Netherlands is just plain wrong. No excuse.
    Last edited by RBA-Wintrow; 15th Aug 02 at 7:54 AM.

  8. #8
    SPAWN OF SATAN
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    And Clinton was the most corrupt president in US history. He made even Harding look like a tyro.
    Oh, for goodness sake... that's one of the most absurd things I've heard on the forums. Most corrupt? Because he got a blowjob in his office? I've got news for ya... it's not as unusual as everyone thinks... Kennedy's a good example.

  9. #9
    Jackboot
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    Despite all of the hand-wringing by both the US press and the international media, the system worked exactly as it should in the last election. The action of the US Supreme Court may seem high-handed to some, but it achieved the same result as the actual recount, which declared Bush the winner at a much later date. The action of SCOTUS prevented futher political chaos and allowed for a peaceful transfer of power. As for the electoral college, it functioned as designed. The USA is a constitutional republic, not a democracy, thank God.

    Although I have some pressing problems with Bush over his domestic policies, I must agree with both his decision to reject the ICC and to move to protect US servicemen against the officers of the court (I assume this is what you mean by "threatening the Netherlands"). The ICC is an affront to the soveriegnity of any nation. I cannot imagine, with all the Euro resistance to Globalization that there can be any support for a supra-national police force that can supercede and void the rights of individual citizens of any nation. If the ICC does not constitute the enforcement service of the Globalists, I would be immensely suprised.

    It may also come as a surprise to you that Clinton vigorously opposed the court up until his last moments as president. It is very likely that he signed it merely to force Bush into rejecting it and creating an international stir. Clinton was a wretched bastard like that, after all.

  10. #10
    Jackboot
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    CJ, actually Kennedy IS a good example...of what to avoid. A publicity-seeking, rich-kid, pretty-boy, big-ego president who empanels family members to sensitive jobs (he made his own brother the Secretary of State) and generally mis-handles everything he touches. Everybody loves Kennedy, but they fail to notice that he invaded his neighbors without provocation and brought us closer to a nuclear exchange than any other president. Oh, and I forgot to mention that he involved the US in Vietnam.

    As for Clinton, he was corrupt long before Monica crawled under his desk. It amuses me to watch all of the progressives line up to defend the biggest knee-slappin' baby-kissin', good-old-boy southern whitebread fatcat to come along in a generation.

  11. Child's Play Donor  #11
    senile member Mac_Bug's Avatar
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    here we go again

    Despite all of the hand-wringing by both the US press and the international media, the system worked exactly as it should in the last election.
    I've only gone through grade 7/8 US social studies, so please, help me understand the exact need for electoral college

    Although I have some pressing problems with Bush over his domestic policies, I must agree with both his decision to reject the ICC and to move to protect US servicemen against the officers of the court (I assume this is what you mean by "threatening the Netherlands"). The ICC is an affront to the soveriegnity of any nation. I cannot imagine, with all the Euro resistance to Globalization that there can be any support for a supra-national police force that can supercede and void the rights of individual citizens of any nation. If the ICC does not constitute the enforcement service of the Globalists, I would be immensely suprised.
    I'm also confused as to what the problem is here. If I am in the US I am subject to United States laws (and without US citizen rights), the same would apply to any US servicemen or citizen over seas - they are already under that nation's courts' jurisdiction. Any war crime committed on foreign soil that has signed the ICC would fall under jurisdiction of the ICC, and thus the ICC has the right to investigate and prosecute at the request of that nation if the US government is not willing to cooperate. This does not and will not violate any sovereignty.

    Kosovo fell under some other you've-never-heard-of multinational court system at the time of the bombings ... last century. Allegations of war crime were presented to this court, and they would have had full jurisdiction under international law to prosecute any US or otherwise NATO soldiers who are suspected of war crimes - except the court flatly refused to do anything citing lack of evidence. That did not and will not stop America.

  12. Forum Subscriber  #12
    Logico-Fishosophicus ionfish's Avatar
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    Despite all of the hand-wringing by both the US press and the international media, the system worked exactly as it should in the last election.
    Yes, it got the system's stooge elected instead of the people's choice. gg on that.

  13. Forum Subscriber  #13
    Logico-Fishosophicus ionfish's Avatar
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    Hopefully your country will grow up and embrace democracy like the rest of the civilised world.

    ion.
    wooly european liberal.

  14. #14
    Jackboot
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    Re: here we go again

    Originally posted by Mac_Bug

    I've only gone through grade 7/8 US social studies, so please, help me understand the exact need for electoral college
    The electoral college is designed to prevent a particularly populous state from dominating national elections by "weighting" the importance of less populous states. Without the electoral college, California, New York and Florida would choose the president in every election. The system exists to safeguard the rights of the states, not the citizens, and it works like a champ. Remember, the US is NOT a democracy.

    As for the ICC and the Kosovo kangaroo court, hang 'em all. International war crimes trials are an absurd act of chest-pounding by the victors, not unlike the Babylonians cutting off the thumbs of thier vanquished enemies.

  15. Forum Subscriber  #15
    Logico-Fishosophicus ionfish's Avatar
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    International war crimes trials are an absurd act of chest-pounding by the victors, not unlike the Babylonians cutting off the thumbs of thier vanquished enemies.
    So I guess we should have let the Nazis go free after we won the Second World War then?

  16. #16
    Tbird
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    Didn`t "we" do exactly that?


    and speaking of the kosovo court : i doubt Mr. Milosevic will ever see the inside off a jail-cell, more likely he will die out of old age during his trial period.
    Last edited by Tbird; 15th Aug 02 at 11:37 AM.

  17. #17
    Jackboot
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    Originally posted by ionfish
    So I guess we should have let the Nazis go free after we won the Second World War then?
    Nuremburg served no real purpose other than to ensure that the convicted were actually executed, rather than merely imprisoned. The German government (who had legal jurisdiction) was QUITE vigorous in their pursuit of Nazis, and most of the survivors of Nuremburg faced de-nazification trials and further prison sentences when they were released from Spandau.

    The trials of Japanese war criminals were even more farcial, with the US sometimes unable to present even a single item of evidence beyond hearsay. A few of the more politically dangerous prisoners were executed, and then the whole affair was allowed to quietly peter out.

  18. Forum Subscriber  #18
    Logico-Fishosophicus ionfish's Avatar
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    I'll take that as a yes then.

  19. #19
    Jackboot
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    Originally posted by ionfish
    I'll take that as a yes then.
    It depends on who the "we" is. If "we" is the victorious allies, the answer is because we have no right to try them we should have let them go, if only back to the German authorities. If "we" is Germany, by no means should they be allowed to escape until they gave full account for their actions in a court of law and suffered the consequences. Likewise, German nationals who committed offenses in occupied lands would be subject to the laws of the soveriegn state in which thier crimes were committed.

    Thus, Hoess, the commandant of Auschwitz, could be justly tried by either Germany (because he was a German citizen) or Poland (because his crimes took place on Polish soil against Polish citizens). He could not, however, be justly tried by Great Britain, because he committed no crime on British soil and was not a subject of the crown. It didn't stop them from hanging him, though.

  20. #20
    Walker
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    george monbiot is not a zealot, an anti-american or "american hating european", an anarchist, a raving liberal, an anticapitalist, a hippy or a shitstirrer. at least, not fanatically or without prior reason.

    he's the most prominent ecological and political journalist around today, and thats not just IMHO. he has honorary membership of a handful of universities. hes been voted by half the broadsheet papers in the UK as either one of the most influential people in britain, or as one of the international prophets of this century. his books top non-fiction bestselling lists. switzerland, that most progressive of nations, banned them from being brought into the country, for a time, for being too subversive.

    i somehow think that if this man is alarmed about something then at the very least its something to pay some real attention to. feel free to disagree with it entirely, of course; just remind me who here has equivalent accolade?

  21. #21
    Jackboot
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    Originally posted by Walker
    george monbiot is not a zealot, an anti-american or "american hating european", an anarchist, a raving liberal, an anticapitalist, a hippy or a shitstirrer. at least, not fanatically or without prior reason.
    He is however hyperbolic, alarmist, and prone to exaggeration. As such, he fits in very well with all the other hyperbolic, alarmist, tabloid journalist nincompoops up at the Guardian. As for his accolades, I wouldn't give you two pins for the lot of them; the chattering classes love to heap accolades and acclaim on each other. None of it means a thing.

    As for Mr. Monbiots opinion, it is a flame in and of itself. I don't feel like engaging in a flame war, so I'll just let him go on blowing little ineffectual clouds of nonsense. I'm not going to change anyone's minds, anyway.

  22. #22
    Walker
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    not when you register on the boards for the sole reason of instigating and perpetuating the flame that what you obviously felt you couldnt bear to refrain from imposing on this single thread by being only an observer amounts to.

    edit: or, as might be, commit yourself wholeheartedly to it within days. obviously you do want a flamewar, or you wouldnt be so diligently disagreeing with everything and everyone.
    Last edited by Walker; 15th Aug 02 at 1:09 PM.

  23. Child's Play Donor  #23
    senile member Mac_Bug's Avatar
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    So how do you address his second paragraph?

  24. #24
    Jackboot
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    I wasn't planning on addressing it, although the part about "going to war without a mandate from the UN Security Council" has to be the funniest thing I've read all day.

  25. Child's Play Donor  #25
    senile member Mac_Bug's Avatar
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    because...

  26. #26
    matt_tone9
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    Originally posted by Jackboot

    He is however hyperbolic, alarmist, and prone to exaggeration. As such, he fits in very well with all the other hyperbolic, alarmist, tabloid journalist nincompoops up at the Guardian.
    woah, no. oh no, that's wrong. The Guardian is a BROADSHEET and (IMHO) a very good one. You seem to be thinking about the Daily Hell or News of the World...

  27. Child's Play Donor  #27
    senile member Mac_Bug's Avatar
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    Well Dmille, blinds do tend to prohibit your ability to see light

  28. #28
    Daniika Rain
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    Heh, Mac_Bug, might it be better to call suspected trolls to question over the issue? You're clearly skilled in repartee, but I don't know if it's going to be very helpful in this case?

    To Jackboot and dmille: if you disagree with the article, it might be a good idea to refute the observations it makes. Because as far as I can see, those observations are accurate, and don't seem hyperbolic or alarmist (I'm not referring to the editorial conclusion). If you just say "I support Bush" or "This article is crap" it implies that you're an imperialist or an ignoramus respectively. It's likely you don't want to be either of those things in this thread.

    Patch Adams said, "I am literally comparing Bush to Hitler, only Hitler's vision was smaller." Now that is a statement that you can argue is alarmist and hyperbolic.

  29. #29
    hougy
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    Not everyone will agree with the prez's decisions. u cant please everyone, but u can please the majority. so if you another stupid weener who thinks the economy is going down because of bush, i suppose u can do better controlling the USA? i hope bush is re-elected, hes made alotta good changes, and ive actually noticed them. just tell that to a democrat and youll set that person off if u just mention the word republican.

    republican > good (military $$$)
    democrat > bad (more tax...you should see my pay stubs from clintons time in office for fed taxes!)

  30. #30
    Scream for me baby! El Russo's Avatar
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    And Clinton was the most corrupt president in US history. He made even Harding look like a tyro.
    hmmm... nixon? bush, even.

    The action of the US Supreme Court may seem high-handed to some, but it achieved the same result as the actual recount, which declared Bush the winner at a much later date.
    i thought the final final final recount gave gore florida (and thus, the presidency)? if it did, then something is wrong. if not, then i stopped (understandably) paying attention and giving a damn - ("no, wait, it's gore by 5." "actually, considering the recent postal ecuadorian disabled votes, bush wins"). the collegiate system is adequate and even if gore did get more votes, regardless of recounts, the system rightly should give it to bush. in the uk, labour has x% of the seats in the house of commons and got x/y% of the votes (where y is greater than 1). sorry, i tried to make it sound simple but failed. basically, they got comparatively more seats than votes. the majority of the uk population favours the first past the post system which works for me and is similarish.

    woah, no. oh no, that's wrong. The Guardian is a BROADSHEET and (IMHO) a very good one. You seem to be thinking about the Daily Hell or News of the World...
    i think jackboot might have been disparaging its journalists as tabloidesque. the paper is technically a broadsheet but that does not stop it from disguising its rants as well meant liberalism.

    Patch Adams said, "I am literally comparing Bush to Hitler, only Hitler's vision was smaller."
    i can just imagine robin williams, in a white coat, fighting out a political battle of wits with dubya. hmmm, who would actually win?

    btw, that post was sensationalist and OTT in places but it made sense, more so to non-americans/american patriots than to bush-munchers (harhar!).
    Last edited by El Russo; 15th Aug 02 at 7:59 PM.

  31. #31
    SPAWN OF SATAN
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    The action of the US Supreme Court may seem high-handed to some, but it achieved the same result as the actual recount, which declared Bush the winner at a much later date.
    Semi-kinda-sorta true. The recount in the four contested states would have handed it to Bush. A state-wide recount, however, would have given it to Gore. Gore actually screwed himself over by not asking for a state-wide one...

  32. #32
    Walker
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    can you verify that? so that when this argument comes up in the future i can just ignore the bushmeisters as irrelevant?

  33. #33
    Daniika Rain
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    Originally posted by hougy:
    ...so if you another stupid weener who thinks the economy is going down because of bush, i suppose u can do better controlling the USA? i hope bush is re-elected, hes made alotta good changes, and ive actually noticed them...

    republican > good (military $$$)
    democrat > bad...
    You're coming across as uninformed, zealotous and egoistic. Uninformed because your post demonstrates no actual knowledge about the topic under discussion. Zealotous because you're turning this into a Republican vs Democrat argument (one of the main flaws of the US system seems to be the complete lack of any real choice of parties). Egoistic because you seem to be saying that, as long as your taxes are reduced, Bush can do what he likes, and it doesn't matter what the effects are on other countries.

    I hope that's not what you intended?

    Dmille: I can't speak for others, but I will not flame you (sorry if my previous post came across as a bit harsh). I'd just like you to justify your position. I'm less interested in people's opinions than in their reasoning.

  34. #34
    I'm just going to clear something up for you europeans here... Most of the industrialized world is somewhat socialistic, much more so than the US. That includes all of Europe and Canada as well...

    The people of your countries tend to be respecters of centralized authority, who see the UN as ideally the final authority in all matters international. There's nothing inherently wrong with that, however... If you are going to argue with Americans you need to realize that we do not share that view. The concept of any organization having authority beyond over our own government is abhorrent to us. We're barely happy with our own government having as much power as it does, we're certainly not going to look favorably on an organization being placed above that.

    So first accept that the US government and populace will never accept the UN as the final authority in anything the US has an interest in, and argue from there.

    -Paladin

  35. #35
    Peregrine
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    Back on the International Criminal Court. The main issues that Bush had are that the ICC had no built in safeguards. For instance, the US Constitution guarentes the accused of a "trial before their peers." This is where we get our jury system from, the ICC has no such assurances (meaning the jury, who could be trying a US military officer could be made up of beauracrats, who might condemn him just because he is an American, instead of on facts.). Another is the right to a speed trial, meaning that the ICC could keep someone imprisoned indefinatly, and just keep putting off the trial. Yes, I know that you hear of trials taking years in the US, but that is not for the first trial, that is for all the appeals. Another problem is just that, there is no way to appeal a decision made by the ICC, in the US there are so many layers of appeals it can takes years to get the final say on the issue.

    Paladin is again correct on his view. Our "liberals" are more moderate to world standards, and our "conservatives" are in far right field as far as Europe is concerned.

  36. #36
    Peregrine
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    Ok, some other thought, my last post was the reasonable one... fair warning, this is a rant.


    [rant]

    I don't get it really. I mean, what is it that draws people to US bashing. I can understand folks in the States bashing the US, that is our right, but why is it that Europeans feel obligated to comment on our politics. The common US citizen doesn't comment on Tony Blair, heck, I'll admit that I don't know the first thing about English (or French or German) politics, and so I don't comment on them. Why must you comment on US politics? Arte your politics that boring? Or is there something else? Perhaps you still feel like we're just some colony of Europe that still needs your guiding... Frankly, I'm tired of it. So how 'bout you just keep your nosed on your side of the Atlantic?

    [/rant]

  37. #37
    Walker
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    thats right, it was a rant. and off topic. we can safely ignore it.

  38. #38
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    Peregrine - American ignorance of European politics is hardly a reason for them to be ignorant of ours... but I agree with your point, for the most part.

  39. #39
    Peregrine
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    uhh... did you say you agreed (even partially) with me ceejayoz? Did hell freeze over or something?

  40. #40
    GhostTX
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    My rant

    Just a couple of quick facts:
    Clinton was corrupt. Several indescretions (ala Monica) happened while serving as governor. As president, before Monica, allowed Chinese to obtain ICBM navigational and engine secrets (they weren't accurate before, they are now). He took campaign contributions from Chinese dignitaries. He leased out rooms in the White House to the highest bidder for overnight stays. He knowingly lied about his affair with Monica.

    By the way, Bush IS the majority choice of America. Besides "official" counts of the ballots, even the Miami Herald took all the ballots and counted them...Bush won. Besides, If you don't like Bush ...would you REALLY want Gore dealing with post 9/11? *shiver*

    Bush was right in poo-pooing the ICC for all that Peregrine said. To boot, with as many anti-American euro's (present companyy included) out there...would we get a fair trial?

    By the way, the US bio-weapons R&D is dead. All we have now are stockpiles left over...and those ARE being destroyed or they're so old, you'd be lucky to catch a cold from them. Further, who would you rather have bio-weapons? The US with its checks-and-balances, or Suddaam/Iraq...who has used them and will use them without a second thought? (By the way, when he say he hates the WEST....he means Europe, too.)

    He's right, we're not going in because of weapons inspections, but by UN TREATY with Iraq (Gulf War, anyone?), we have the right to. We're going in to remove a madman in the MidEast who is funding/aiding terrorists. No evidence?? The nut (Saddaam) publicly PLEDGED to give money to the families of any suicide terrorist! Gee...that's not motivating anyone....

    Gawd...what financial scandals? Bush dealings in the 80's? HELLO! They were and ARE legal! (Well...not after Bush made them illegal recently). Further, he REPAID his loans he made in those dealings. The SEC checked into back then and found NOTHING wrong. As for Cheney....he's unfortunate enough to (egad!) invest in a company that WAS making money (Enron). Shame, shame on you for trying to make money (legally)!!

    As for the oil...ya its an interest we'll use the MidEast and in 60-80 years, y'all will be buying from us! Bwah ha ha ha! (Alaska anyone? Gulf of Mexico?)

    I think ol' George Monbiot needs to do further research before spouting off. Is he aligned with that nut from France that published the book sayin 9/11 was a US government conspiracy?

    I like Bush. No, he's not perfect. I'm chapped at him for voting in that stupid Campaign Financing Reform (all it really does is keep those currently in power, to remain in power...but that's another subject). I admire him for stepping up to the plate, saying what he's going to do, and doing it. None of this BS "We're going to have to prepare for war," talk, lob a couple of cruise missiles into Afghanistan, blow up a milk factory, then no do anything more. (that was Clinton, by the way).

    As far as bashing the US. Fine...all outstanding countries, pay up on your loans from us. We'll withdrawl from the UN (don't we pay, what...60% of its bills?). We'll keep our food and tourists within our borders. We'll stop sending doctors and rescue teams to those disasters in other countries. We won't allow any foreigners in...no more US educations...y'all have good schools, right? We won't buy your products, we won't export ours (who wants denim anyway?) We won't stick our noses into anyone else business.

    Have fun with the floods! The foot-n-mouth disease! Fiats!

  41. #41
    AlphaPrimate
    Guest
    The reason why Europeans comment on Us government is becuae the actions it takes general involves more than one country, through economics or military. Americans don't know much about each Euro-government, but why should they? They all have similiar views which are represented in NATO. And Americans do know the NATO (orginization) well.

    The reason know why most Euros bicker at the US is because they have seen too much war and want to resolve issues in other ways. However the US is very expierenced in modern warfare and can go through entire Wars with very little ally mortalities.

    As Americans we see that as a plus side to war, he don't feel emtional impact of it very much. But the other side feels it heavy. The Europeans relate to the military, and sadly even civilian, deaths of thier enemy.

  42. #42
    AlphaPrimate
    Guest

    sorry for the double post...

    Clinton was corrupt. Several indescretions (ala Monica) happened while serving as governor. As president, before Monica, allowed Chinese to obtain ICBM navigational and engine secrets (they weren't accurate before, they are now). He took campaign contributions from Chinese dignitaries. He leased out rooms in the White House to the highest bidder for overnight stays. He knowingly lied about his affair with Monica.
    Ok so he likes sex and the Chinese. But you do realize he did as much for America as JFK and FDR.

    As for the oil...ya its an interest we'll use the MidEast and in 60-80 years, y'all will be buying from us! Bwah ha ha ha! (Alaska anyone? Gulf of Mexico?)
    60 to 80 years we should be relying on oil
    Last edited by AlphaPrimate; 15th Aug 02 at 10:52 PM.

  43. #43
    Heh, bad examples Alpha... Most of us conservatives don't think much of JFK or FDR either. In fact in my personal opinion FDR started us on the long slide towards socialism and the entire Great Society agenda should be cancelled. JFK was ineffectual and morally bankrupt, not the sort of person I want as a president.

    Which doesn't mean I'm 100% behind Bush by any means... The Republican party shares the same federalist folly that the Democratic party suffers from, and simply replaces their socialist agenda with a Christian fundamentalist one which I'm just as opposed to. However, I am much happier having him in office than Gore.

    -Paladin

  44. #44
    Daniika Rain
    Guest
    Why has this turned into an EU vs US issue? In virtually every country in the world you will find a significant proportion of people who take issue with the actions of the US, and who have met a number of ignorant, arrogant and self-centered Americans who have created a bad impression.

    Nearly all of the people I most admire are from the US. Some of the people I admire least are from there too. Once again I can't speak for anyone else, but I think defining someone's worth by the place they happened to be born is insane. I won't support my country if they take actions I believe are wrong. Furthermore, if another nation invaded as a last-resort measure to keep my country in check, I'd ask for asylum. I think patriotism/jingoism is ridiculous. Support the country's ideals and actions, not its name.

    GhostTX, the last part of your post sounds pretty much why a great deal of people hate (I mean hate literally here) the US. This is the attitude of many (the majority) of its citizens. The attitude that might makes right, that they are better than other countries, and that they can simply threaten people into submission. I don't mean this as a personal attack, but I do find it disturbing.

  45. Child's Play Donor  #45
    senile member Mac_Bug's Avatar
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    Peregrine, regarding the ICC

    http://www.hrw.org/campaigns/icc/facts.htm

    Paladin:

    So first accept that the US government and populace will never accept the UN as the final authority in anything the US has an interest in, and argue from there.
    And vise versa, accept that the rest of the world will never accept the US as the final authority on anything the UN (hint hint, the rest of the world) has an interest in.

    Pere again:

    Why must you comment on US politics? Arte your politics that boring? Or is there something else? Perhaps you still feel like we're just some colony of Europe that still needs your guiding... Frankly, I'm tired of it. So how 'bout you just keep your nosed on your side of the Atlantic?
    Surely you realise the irony... This whole thing started because US wouldn't keep their nose on their side of the Atlantic

    As president, before Monica, allowed Chinese to obtain ICBM navigational and engine secrets
    It was Bush senior who first broke the ban after Tiananmen Square and permitted American satellites to be launched on Chinese missiles, and so on.

    He took campaign contributions from Chinese dignitaries.
    That's pretty funny, because campaign contributions to influence foreign politics is an official US stance (not to mention certain Republican was alleged to have taken 100,000 from the Chinese too) The CIA has practiced it for ages. In fact, while we're talking about morality and corruption, 48 million dollars was spent during the Afghan Soviet war in conjunction with a certain American university to create books for Afghan children that taught them everything from how to clean a gun to how to shoot one - and this is the text book they use today in classrooms still.

    He leased out rooms in the White House to the highest bidder for overnight stays. He knowingly lied about his affair with Monica.
    Hey, you voted him into office, how dare you question the commander in chief!

    By the way, Bush IS the majority choice of America. Besides "official" counts of the ballots, even the Miami Herald took all the ballots and counted them...Bush won. Besides, If you don't like Bush ...would you REALLY want Gore dealing with post 9/11? *shiver*
    No, Gore won the majority vot e- which didn't matter anyway.

    By the way, the US bio-weapons R&D is dead. All we have now are stockpiles left over...and those ARE being destroyed or they're so old, you'd be lucky to catch a cold from them. Further, who would you rather have bio-weapons? The US with its checks-and-balances, or Suddaam/Iraq...who has used them and will use them without a second thought? (By the way, when he say he hates the WEST....he means Europe, too.)
    I'm quivering in my boots knowing Iraq hates Canada... I think he was the one calling Bush evil and Bush calling him Satan. If the 'west' can be represented by burning effigies of Bush and bullet holed US flags at protests/rallies, shoudln't the Europeans get a say in American politics?

    He's right, we're not going in because of weapons inspections, but by UN TREATY with Iraq (Gulf War, anyone?), we have the right to. We're going in to remove a madman in the MidEast who is funding/aiding terrorists. No evidence?? The nut (Saddaam) publicly PLEDGED to give money to the families of any suicide terrorist! Gee...that's not motivating anyone....
    Saddam deserves what he gets, no matter who gets him - having said that, it's not the way the world works.

    Gawd...what financial scandals? Bush dealings in the 80's? HELLO! They were and ARE legal! (Well...not after Bush made them illegal recently). Further, he REPAID his loans he made in those dealings. The SEC checked into back then and found NOTHING wrong. As for Cheney....he's unfortunate enough to (egad!) invest in a company that WAS making money (Enron). Shame, shame on you for trying to make money (legally)!!
    I'm sorry I have to OmniSlash (how appropriate), but you seem to want to touch all bases. Cheney has a little bit more run in than just Enron with his energy policies, and he certainly has a whole lot bigger problem with the former oil company of his.

    None of this BS "We're going to have to prepare for war," talk, lob a couple of cruise missiles into Afghanistan, blow up a milk factory, then no do anything more. (that was Clinton, by the way).
    That milk factory missile allegedly costed thousands if not hundreds of thousands of lives. Oh yeah, if it was Gore, he would've went to Afghanistan too.

    As far as bashing the US. Fine...all outstanding countries, pay up on your loans from us. We'll withdrawl from the UN (don't we pay, what...60% of its bills?).
    Uh, you owe them that much, more like.

    We'll keep our food and tourists within our borders. We'll stop sending doctors and rescue teams to those disasters in other countries. We won't allow any foreigners in...no more US educations...y'all have good schools, right? We won't buy your products, we won't export ours (who wants denim anyway?) We won't stick our noses into anyone else business.
    Go ahead and do it.

  46. #46
    find confession in your dreams boolybooly's Avatar
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    Finance is certainly the USA's soft spot !

    George Monbiot makes me laugh.

    I think he is saying what a lot of people feel, but I would sooner it was the USA was running rampant abroad than the USSR because those redhats didnt mess with elections and $#*7, they just rolled the tank over your doormat and were done with it.

    USA is the lesser of two evils and now we have to tame it, all of us, inside and out of that nation, because there are some undesirable elements to its practices, it will take time.

    I am not sure that setting up an atmosphere of enmity is really Georges intent, it is rather a piece of brinkmanship.

  47. #47
    When there is the logic of Empire, just remember, there are also the fall of empires too.

    There is a common reason behind the fall of empires. Historians call it "imperial overstretch".

  48. #48
    Anything Monbiot says has to be taken with a large dose of salt; despite his 'crudentials', he is as bigoted and opinionated as any 'hawk'.

    It has been touched on in previous posts, but no US President could ever sign up to the ICC without violating the Constitution. It would require an Amendment.

    Europeans are interested in US politics because it matters. What happens in the US affects the rest of the world (especially economically), so this is why 'we' feel obliged to comment. If the US decides to go to war against Iraq (with or without allies or UN support), the consequences could be immense. This is why 'we' dare to care about what 'you' might do, even though 'you' don't give a sh^t about 'us'.

  49. #49
    Scream for me baby! El Russo's Avatar
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    London, UK
    i find it funny that the only people who are "allowed" to comment on US politics are americans. "luckily", i am, so i'll just have to be the representative of europe on this one. any non-americans who want to say something pm/email me and i'll post it. btw, i am british as well.
    Last edited by El Russo; 16th Aug 02 at 5:04 AM.

  50. #50
    Await Rescue bluevorlon's Avatar
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    The Land of Earl Grey
    I'd like to point out this is an international board, and if you're a member you are free to participate in any and all discussions so long as you adhere to the forum rules.

    I won't tolerate any 'American Only' threads here, same as I wouldn't any 'UK only' ones.

    Clearly, there are topics specific to certain Countries, but if you don't want people of other nationalities and cultures posting in them, I suggest you refrain from posting them at all.

    Thank you,

    Mista Vorlon (British Citizen)

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