Universal Weapons

[Falcon]

Ok all modders out there adding new weapons to this great game need to keep in mind that everyone has there own views on how strong a weapon should be.

Now i propose that a sticky should be made and in the sticky conatin all weapons that are generally used for example the melta varients.

Now in doing this we could get better balancing as people are using the same weapon stats and also we could have mod vs mod as there weapon values are the same.

[Makivelli]

This is a good idea, i've noticed in other games when people are making specific forces they each mod makes their own version of the version of weapons and units and they'rea ll different strengths and quality and it becomes rather annoying. I would even take it futher and encourage the sharing of weapon models (and if you're making the same army as another mod unit models even) and instead just change the textures (and fluffy bits) to suit your mod.

[xbrain]

exelent idea man !
first off we have to list every weapon in the warhammer 40k game... big work head...

I wonder what will the power of a macro canon be...

[Falcon]

Ok any mods out there find this a good idea as this will benefit your mod and the community

[Kresjah]

I have been thinking of this problem for some time now (which is one of the many reasons I started planning the resource bin project in my sig, but it has been on hold for a month due to christmas and lack of time, will restart soon). This is a VERY good idea, and I think my 'Vanilla' Space Marines mod, as well as any other mod would greatly benefit from it.

I'd love to help, but I have got my hands full lately. I could, if you like, do some general planning and administrative tasks if you wish for me to do that.

Also, if you are planning on starting this now, you should have a chat with the major mod teams out there (Tau, Necron and Tyranid mods to mention a few), and ask if they wish to contribute with their work to this project. I would also recommend that this project is largely influenced by the community's preferences rather than personal taste when developing new weapons. I mean no personal offence to those who create or contribute to this mod, but if this is to be a universal weapons mod that is, well, used universally, it should also be a universal thought and agreement behind it, if you get what I mean.

Hope this project works out! Good luck!

[Palii]

Very good idea!
On the long-run an autonomous website would be great! More work in the beginning but then the process is more automated.

Basic Questions:
- Who will decide what the final weapon stats will be?
- How can we fairly and communally balance the weapon stats?
- What to do with people who don't want to participate?

Features. Just ideas...
- Login for all mod teams
- vote for weapon stats: public and mod teams
- list of DOW weapons
- list of TT weapons
- models for each weapon?
- textures?
- FX!!!
- lua weapon source files?

Also think of nice combi-weapons!! Like the obliterators. SM/IG/Hereticus/Maellus: bolter/flamer, bolter/plasma etc. ORKS:shoota/skorcha...

The list of TT weapon stats is extremely important, this way we can compare the TT values to DOW values easily. This would help modders much. I'm not sure everyone has the codexes and rulebook on the shelf.

I don't know if this should go with the super-mod or just in general. But if mod teams agree, and settle on the weapons list, then it will happen anyways.

[Falcon]

The people who decide the weapons is the community that is why i wanted other mods in. For those who don't partcipant they are going to have alot of problem balancing for those who did.

I myself will be off on holidays soon so i can't start this for alittle while.

I jsut want to see how many mods are liking the idea

[Kresjah]

After I've finished the website for the Unified Conflict website, I may (but I cannot guarantee) be able to make a website for you.

Also, I agree with many of the things Palii mentions. When I read his post, I do agree with the model/texture parts too. Again, I had some of the same motivation behind the resource bin project I'm working on. My goal was to make a centralized site for mod teams (in the beginning, expanding to 'all mortal men' later ) in which to cooperate in sharing models and code with each other and such. This would reduce both workload on many mod teams, and prevent happenings like to teams creating two different lascannon models, which would end up looking inconsistent with each other.

Actually, if you are interested, this may sound like a good time for cooperation between your project and my resource bin project... but that would of course need further discussing

By the way, regarding a list of TT weapon stats; Palii, from the way you write it, you seem to be aware of it, but you do know that publishing any stats from the TT game is illegal, right? This does mean that the modders working on the code should have access to codexes and such (either owning or borrowing).

[xbrain]

we must start somewhere :

bolt
{
- bolt pistol
- bolter
-twin liked bolter
- storm bolter
- heavy bolter
- twin linked heavy bolter
- hurricane bolter (3*twin liked bolter)
}
melta
{
- <on custom bolter> melta gun (fires once)
- melta gun
- multi melta
}
plasma
{
- plasma pistol
- plasma gun
- plasma cannon
}
laser
{
- lascanon
- twin linked lascanon
}
missile
{
- hunter killer missile (fires once)
- crak missile
- frag missile
}

[Bluesman]

This list is going to be huge, but under laser you'll also want laspistols and guns, aswell as stub guns under the bolt section. Then there's Auto[Pistol/Gun/Cannon/Battlecannon]. And what about other races weapons?

[Falcon]

Add them to sorry i can't do much atm but when i get back i will get start getting into it more.

[bloodthirster90]

dont forget master crafted stuff!

[Falcon]

MSC crap would just get a accuracy boost

[xbrain]

as twin linked stuff should have, but in the actual ame it does more dammage too

[Last_Crusade]

IMPERIAL ARMOURY (Ranged)

Bolter Weapons

- Bolter Astartes MKVb Godwyn Pattern
- Bolt Pistol Astartes MK III
- Storm Bolter Astartes MK VII Terminatus Pattern
- Heavy Bolter Astartes MK IVc Man-Portable
- Hurricane Bolter (3*twin linked bolter)
- Assault Cannons (Terminatus, Dreadnought)
- Psycannon
(Lets not forget specialist ammunition! Hellfire, Kraken, Inferno, Stalker and Metal Storm!)

Melta Weapons

- Melta Gun
- Multi Melta Ultima Pattern ‘Tank Killer’
- Inferno Pistol (Rare, One known to be used by Lord Dante, Grandmaster of the Blood Angels)

Plasma

- Plasma Pistol MK III ‘Sunfury’
- Plasma Gun M35 ‘Magnacore’ type
- Plasma Cannon

Laser

- Lascannon
- Twin Linked Lascannon
- Lasrifles/Carbines M36, MK 4
- Laspistols Various Manufacturers
- Hellguns/pistols MK 2
- Multilaser

Missiles

- Hunter Killer missile (fires once)
- Krak Missiles
- Frag Missiles
- Plasma Missiles
- Cyclone Missile Launcher
- Exorcist Missile
- Typhoon Missile

Solid Slug Weapons

- Stub Gun/Pistol
- Heavy Stubbers
- Combat Shotguns
- Autoguns
- Autocannon
- Grenade Launcher (Frag, Krak)
- Mortar
- Ripper Gun
- Sniper Rifle
- Combi-Stake Crossbow
- Needle Pistol
- Exitus Rifle/Pistol

Flamers

- Flamer MK IIIa ‘Heretic’ Pattern
- Flame Pistols
- Heavy Flamer
- Inferno Cannon
- Incinerator

Misc.

- Digital Weapons
- Animus Speculum
- Neural Shredder
- Executioner Pistol
- Deathwind

*Note – This does not include specific weapons used by special characters. Inferno Pistol can be used by witch hunters. This also does not INCLUDE ordinance. Credit for skeleton of IMPERIAL ARMOURY – Ranged Weapon listing goes to xbrain.

*Note 2 – This is only Imperial Ranged Weaponry. Almost all Imperial Ranged Weaponry used by Inquisitors, Space Marines, Imperial Guard, Officio Assassinorum and Witch Hunters. This is for reference only and does not conform to weaponry only used in DoW. All Modders may use this as long as my name is included. Close Combat and Ordinance will be compiled at a later date. Also wait patiently for Tyranid, Tau, Ork, Eldar, Dark Eldar, Necron and Chaos SM Weapons!

*Note 3 – I did not include various weaponry from Leman Russ tank variants or super-heavies from Imperial Armor. I felt this should be included in Ordinance.

*Note 4 - Any comments/ suggestions or additional references will be welcome. Especially 1st Ed. Rogue Trader fluff. I lost my 1st edition rulebook

[Makivelli]

I think you will probably have to make Sub Categories in those Categories that isn't based on projectile but rather damage or purpose i.e Light Weapons, Medium Weapons, Heavy Weapons, Super Heavy Weapons e.t.c or Anti-Armor, Anti-Infantry, Side Arm, Multi-Purpose, Long Range e.t.c

[SvK]

In the original game, the Space Marines have Heavy Bolters in Tactical Squads, on Land Raiders, on Turrets, and on Upgraded Listening Posts. The stats on all these Heavy bolters are different. I don't see the problem with (for example) melta guns in different mods having different stats.

[Falcon]

:Slap:
Yeah i know but i see i don't why there should be damage for each mod on the one same weapon as in multi-melta devastor marine not just for all buildings i just want a space_marine_melta.lua that can be the reference for space_marine_meltagun_tactical.lua

[Last_Crusade]

I am actually listing out all the weapons based out of the TT codexes. Just as a reference for all the different weapons I can dig up used in the warhammer world. Then modders can see whether they want to make their own weapons or remain true to the fluff.

[Olgerth Istaarn]

Thought I'd swing by. :bandit:

Before I mothballed DoW, I actually went through the Weapons folder and sorted ALL built-in shooting weapons by AP and STR in their neat lill subfolders. I also sorted the melee weapons by power/nonpower and the wielder's strength (since most melee weapons except Power Fists and Thunder Hammer just strike with the wielder's STR).

I still have the folder structure saved on my computer, but I did mess with the weapon characteristics to fit my (sadly failed) dream mod.

I based the AP of each weapon type on tabletop. Just like in TT, we have 5 basic Infantry Armour types in DoW (from tp_infantry_low to tp_infantry_heavy_high). In TT, of course, this corresponds to the armour saves from 6+ to 2+. So, an AP5 bolter (a pistol or a tactical bolter) would have this AP table vs. infantry:

tp_infantry_low = 100% (it pierces 6+)
tp_infantry_med = 100% (it pierces 5+)
tp_infantry_high = 50% (3 chances in 6 to pierce 4+)
tp_infantry_heavy_med = 33.33% (2 chances in 6 to pierce 3+)
tp_infantry_heavy_high = 16.67% (1 chance in 6 to pierce 2+)
tp_commander = 16.67% (assume they wear artificer armour with 2+ save)

Now vs. vehicles we look at Strength of the weapon instead... the bolters' strength is 4, and I came up with this AP table:

tp_vehicle_low = 2% (simulates 1 in 6 possibility of scoring a glancing hit on Armour 10, and then 1 in 6 possibility to destroy the vehicle)
tp_vehicle_med = 0.05% (since you CAN in theory kill a dreadnought with a bolter, this represents that small possibility)
tp_vehicle_high = 0% (try as you might, you can't beat Armour 13 or 14 with a STR 4 bolter).

I gave buildings the same AP values as corresponding vehicles would have (so a bolter would have 2% penetration vs. tp_building_low, 0.05% vs. tp_building_light and 0% vs. tp_building_heavy).

I got stuck and frustrated trying to calculate the weapons' damage output and units' HP values that would simulate a WH40K battlefield, and gave up. But I think at least my AP calclulations make some sense. Use 'em if you want... albeit you probably don't care.

[Drachenfels]

DoW is a representation of the 40K universe as a RTS, it's not supposed to be the tablet top game.

[Olgerth Istaarn]

Gee, thanks for dismissing my idea offhand without taking 3 minutes to read the post and consider But I'll humour you with an explanation.

Of course it's an RTS representation of a universe.

But the default AP tables of DoW weapons are ridiculous.

If nothing else, TT provides a good baseline reference for the "universal weapons" concept. It gives you a very solid idea of relative weapon strengths and their purposes. The aforementioned bolters are supposed to be great against lighter infantry, not so great against power armour, and completely powerless against heavy vehicle plating.

Of course, if you think that a bolter should do exact same damage against a normal Space Marine and a Terminator (which it does by default), and if you believe that you CAN take down a Land Raider by shooting it with bolters A LOT (which you can by default), I cannot help you. But somehow I doubt that THAT is an accurate representation of DoW universe in an RTS.

[Makivelli]

That would be a difficult line to tread, it would be a logical way of making it truely represent the units of Warahammer but I think the idea was to dumb it down so people that aren't right into the table top game wouldn't constantly die becaue in the RTS games they're used to they can defeat armored units with jsut bullets. Because not all Dawn Of War players aren't right into the table top game I don't think you would want to implent it into this system, although you could possibly make an advanced version of it so the people that want to see it the way you tried to do it could utilise it.

Im not even sure if this Universal weapons idea is taking off anyway it's not getting much traffic.

[Olgerth Istaarn]

Well, I kinda hoped that there would be enough people for whom "dumbed down" is not good enough.

But you're right, I shouldn't have bothered. Never mind.

[Immortus]

"idea is taking off anyway it's not getting much traffic."
Uh, I support the idea, as every attempt at improving something is good. In my opinion.

Besides, does every mod need the whole community behind them? Why shouldn't someone do something for the smaller groups?
If it's good, the masses will accept it anyway

[Last_Crusade]

I think Damar Stiehl's effort is a good thing. I think in TT terms quite often. Sometimes even in real life... So the conversion helps me think about how modding code more easily.

I got the Xenos Armoury finished... but have not organized all the weapons into sub catagories.

Xenos Armoury – Ranged

Tau Ranged Weaponry

- Burst Cannon
- Flamer
- Fusion Blaster
- Ion Cannon
- Missile Pod
- Plasma Rifle
- Pulse Carbine
- Pulse Rifle
- Railgun (Solid, Submunition)
- Smart Missile System
- Seeker Missile

Kroot Ranged Weaponry *Kroot Specific only. Mercenary gear not listed.

- Kroot Rifle
- Kroot Gun

Tyranid Ranged Bio Weapons

- Fleshborer
- Spine Fist
- Devourer
- Deathsplitter
- Barbed Strangler
- Venom Cannon
- Spore Cannon (Poison, Frag, Bio Acid)


Eldar Ranged Weapons

- Shuriken Pistol
- Shuriken Catapult
- Shuriken Cannon
- Deathspinner (Exarch D.Spinner is Assault 2 instead of rapid fire)
- Fusion Gun
- Fire Pike
- Wraithcannon
- Ranger Long Rifle
- Flamer
- Scatter Laser
- Missile Launcher (Krak, Plasma)
- Brightlance
- Starcannon
- Lasblaster
- Hawks Talon
- Prism Cannon
- D – Cannon
- Shadow Weaver
- Vibrocannon
- Reaper Launcher
- Mandiblasters


Ork Ranged Weaponry

- Slugga
- Big Shoota
- Burna
- Rokkit Launcha
- Shoota
- Kombi Weapons



Necrons

- Gauss Flayer
- Gauss Blaster
- Gauss Cannon
- Heavy Gauss Cannon
- Gauss Flux Arc
- Particle whip
- Staff of Light

Dark Eldar

- Blaster
- Dark Lance
- Destructor
- Disintegrator
- Shredder
- Splinter Cannon
- Splinter Pistol
- Splinter Rifle
- Stinger
- Terrorfex

This does not include CSM because technically I feel they aren't Xenos. They are daemons and thus an image of emotions set into real life.

[xbrain]

zapcannon for the orks !!!

[drom_techmarine]

if you want to add some weapon models I started a diffrent thread about models you can have that i made for this I just couldent find this thread or I would have posted them here so if you wnat ot add these to a colection of weapons feal free.





(warning the text link on our page will take you to truly huge pics so use the pic link on the home page to dl file)
http://games.kalicore.org/
Im going to start posting up some models as i get time to work no them for you to use in the game DOW40k They are not complete and need to be textured but to kind of stay in the spirit of the IP policy of GW I'm not going to finsh them they need to be modified by you to comply with there policy so have fun with them and let me know if you want more stuff and what.


Have fun Sirs,
drom

[xbrain]

Hi !
I need to talk to you about the land raider's crusader hurricane bolter.
I have right know done tons of things for my mod (black templar) but the hurricane bolter is a brand new weapon and i would like to discuss his stats here.

I have done the following :
I looked at the dammage increase that relic has attributed to the heavy bolter when is becomes twin linked and i found that it is 73%. then I took the standar bolter and I did :
dammage*1.73*3 for minimum and maximum, 3 because there are 3 twin linked bolters.
this gives :

GameData = Inherit("space_marine_bolter_variants")

GameData["accuracy"] = 0.950

GameData["accuracy_reduction_when_moving"] = 0.000

GameData["area_effect"]["weapon_damage"]["armour_damage"]["max_damage"] = 145.180
GameData["area_effect"]["weapon_damage"]["armour_damage"]["min_damage"] = 114.320
GameData["area_effect"]["weapon_damage"]["armour_damage"]["min_damage_value"] = 2.500

GameData["area_effect"]["weapon_damage"]["hit_events"]["tp_flesh"] = "Unit_Impact_events/Blood_Splatter_Impact_S"
GameData["area_effect"]["weapon_damage"]["hit_events"]["tp_heavy_metal_armour"] = "Unit_Impact_events/Impact_Bolter_Hvy"
GameData["area_effect"]["weapon_damage"]["hit_events"]["tp_light_metal_armour"] = "unit_impact_events/Impact_Bolter_Sml"
GameData["area_effect"]["weapon_damage"]["hit_events"]["tp_stone"] = "unit_impact_events/wraithbone_hit_small"

GameData["miss_events"]["dirtsand"] = "Data:Art/Events/ground_impact/Bolter_Small_Miss_Dirtsand.events"
GameData["miss_events"]["grass"] = "Data:Art/Events/ground_impact/Bolter_Small_Miss_Grass.events"
GameData["miss_events"]["rock"] = "Data:Art/Events/ground_impact/Bolter_Small_Miss_Rock.events"
GameData["miss_events"]["water"] = "Data:Art/Events/Ground_impact/bolter_small_Miss_Water.events"

GameData["reload_time"] = 0.000

GameData["area_effect"]["weapon_damage"]["armour_damage"]["morale_damage"] = 8.000

with doubled morale dammge as it is litteraly a "metal storm"
with inheritage i did the left and right sponsons, which fire only at 90° instead of 180° because of the side shielding.

what do you think of it ?

I looked at the space wolves mod and the guy has a total different point of view.