CL, Raptors = death

[Bongeh]

I used a banshee rush against chaos.. he got a chaos lord out as well as 2 cultist squads with grens.

I quickly disposed of the cultists but the chaos lord refused to go down.

After much annoyance the chaos player got a raptor squad out with the chaos lord still alive.. his raptors rushed my base and forced me to pull back.

Also while fighting the chaos lord i was constantly pulling squads out and waiting for there moral to not be broken.

How do u counter chaos lord

Demo
http://www.dhamtong.pwp.blueyonder.c...ersuseldar.rar

[Istaril]

(Haven't seen the replay - just some general advice before bed)

His raptors pose no real threat to your base - don't panic. Much.

Without a Farseer you'll have a very tough time trying to kill a Chaos lord - not worth your resources reinforcing the banshees. Smash up his cultists/heretics, pull out, and come to harass him again every once in a while. Dance around and smash up his listening posts (not a banshee strong point)/decap (preferable) with one squad as the other leads the lord in a merry chase. Fleet of Foot is your friend.

With a farseer and solid use of ALL three powers (Guide on Banshees + him, Mind war the commander for the damage and storm him), you start kicking ass. FoF the Farseer away if he's being beat up too bady, and keep the banshees chasing the Lord who can't catch up to your Farseer. Great fun.

Later - with exarchs, your Banshees stand a much better chance.

If it become imperative to take down the lord - toss in everything you have - extra squads of guardians (considering awesome reinforce time) are a huge help, as can bonesingers (tilt the scales in your favour).

[Mystickal]

First things first - don't be offended by this post. You made several mistakes that ripped the victory from your grasp.

The first thing I noticed odd was your build order. While there's nothing wrong with building GUx2 right off the bat, you built a BS afterwards. Try building the BS first, then GUx2, then FoF. You have enough resources in the beginning that it isn't THAT crucial for you to start capping points with guardians. Also, the BS build time is so small the the minor impact building him prior to the GUs won't matter. Then, he'll be able to finish that AP much quicker so you can start working on getting your HB and FS out that much quicker.

The second mistake was that your BS (both of them) sat around waiting for the first GU to finish capping the first point. Idle unit=(usually) bad mojo, but particularly bad because it's this early in the game. Have them build something while you're waiting. Maybe a Soul Shrine (so you can add an Exarch to the HB squad, get some armor or farseer upgrades), maybe a power gen (though I realize you didn't really need a power gen for your banshee rush, depending on what happened during your assualt you might find the power useful if you have to switch tactics. And it'll definitely be helpful when you want to upgrade your LPs). Basically, have them do something that is going to help you out.

The third thing is that you didn't really perform a banshee rush. You performed a Farseer rush, and then moved your banshees in afterwards to support. While you pulled off the Farseer rush well, after you took out his first squad of cultists and made it into his base, you started having problems. Personally, I would've waited until I had at least 1 HB squad to back up my Farseer. But, in your case, it didn't really matter as your HB squad was able to make it to the base relatively unscathed, and in time to help out the FS in her assualt.

(continued below)

[Mystickal]

When your Farseer and Banshee squad attacked the base, he had pulled in his only remaining group of Cultists and had just pulled out his Hero. You took a VERY long time to get rid of those Cultists. IMO, you should have focused on them first, with both the Banshee squad and the FS. Those Grenades kept popping away and disrupting your attack. Sure, the Chaos Lord is a big, bad, dude, but he's not much of a shooter, primarily melee. And he's only got 1 hammer. It's a big hammer, I'll grant you, but he's the least of your worries when you've got a bunch of people shooting at you. I would have taken out the cultist squad first, and then worried about the Chaos Lord. After a bit, you even had a second banshee squad + farseer in his base. So you had 2xHB + 1 FS against 1 Cultist and a Chaos Lord. Unfortunately, you also sent the second squad of Banshee to engage the CL, while your Farseer tried to take on the Cultists. The Cultists were able to rain down grenades on the Banshees attacking the CL, wrecking havoc with their morale. This in turn made them ineffective against the CL.

The reason it took you so long to destroy the cultists was the FS knockback effect. You started to damage one, then knocked the whole squad back (out of melee range), they popped off a grenade or two, and then you engaged them again. Very ineffective. You may have been worried about the turret that was shooting your FS up while she was engaging the cultists. Yes, the turret would have chewed up your banshees a bit, but with 2 squads there they would have made short work of the cultists, and then you could have gone about your business.

Another thing that made much of your force ineffective was FoF. TURN IT OFF when you engage in combat. It reduces accuraccy (even in melee). Use it to get around, use it to get away, use it to get into combat, but turn it off while you're in combat. I cannot emphasize this enough; had you turned off FoF while in combat, despite the other errors, you still may have won. It is THAT important.

I also didn't see you use Guide that much. Guide is your friend. A really, really great friend. Attach the FS to the HB squad, guide that squad, and watch the squad wreck havoc. That would've taken the cultist squad out VERY quickly, and then let you deal with the CL at your leisure. I only noticed you use guide at the end, while your base was being attacked.

Also, MIND WAR! That single attack would have whomped the CL down about half his hit points; your banshee squads (by the time it was all said and done) knocked him down another half. If they had been guided while taking down Cultists, it most likely would have still been active while going after the CL, making him much less difficult.

You also could/should have used your guardian squads to back you up. Instead of decapping his top most point, you should have sent that squad in to engage the cultists. A reinforced GU would have helped you there tremendously. Or, after decapping it, you should have gone into the fray, rather than trying to capture the point.

You had a second guardian squad, the one that captured the top most point on the map, that just sat at that point after capturing it. They were finished around the 5 minute mark, and you let them just sit there until almost the end of the game. Their ranged fire would have made a significant contribution, whether used to take out his Cultist squad, or to fire on his Chaos Lord.

Had you brought all your forces to bear (using FoF to get them there quickly, but turning it off once they arrived) you would have had 2xGU, 2xHB, and FS against 1 cultist squad and 1 CL. Focus on taking out the cultists, then watch how quickly the CL falls (and don't forget to use mindwar/guide!). Sure, he'd be flinging your banshees around, but all the while your GUs would be shooting at and damaging him.

Hope this helps,

~Mystickal

[Mystickal]

One more thing that I forgot to mention:

I don't know if you noticed, but on this map your HB squads decided to split themselves up. His base had two entrances, and each time you sent the banshees in there most of the squad went in through one entrance and the rest of the squad went through the other entrance. Not sure how much impact this had, but it's always best to have all your forces arrive in combat about the same time. With the first HB squad, 2 of them were there, fighting with the Chaos Lord, while the rest of the squad was moving in from the top. Much better to have them all start attacking at the same time, that way damage is spread among them (though not really in this case) and damage is dealt by many swords instead of a few. This was probably just a pathfinding bug, but it would've been better to set their waypoint a small distance outside his base so the squad could regroup there, and then go in as a single unit.

~Mystickal

[merlinedge]

Triple post... Edit it all into 1 post.

[Mystickal]

Isn't there a limit to how long a single post can be?

[Fitz]

{Mod hat}
No there isn't a limit but you should try to break long posts up using headings (or multiple posts - but don't got mad) i don't mind which provided it makes it easy for boardies to read
{/mod hat}

[^CK^]

I agree with all that mystickal said
- FoF is double edged, deactivate it when you fight
- A full squad of scouts, even without upgrades or warlock, is DEADLY to SM/CSM heroes. Always work to have a squad of scouts firing at a sm/csm hero while engaging him with CC troops
- Farseer is weak, always use her attached to a banshee squad. Detach her while casting mindwar or other spells then re attach her. A guided banshee squad attached with farseer will get rid of marine hero.
- Never cast mindwar on a poor cultist squad, especially when the chaos lord has not been slain already. If u had mindwar against CL, he would have died quickly.
- Dont rush his base like that. You shouldn't have entered the base, you only made poor dmg on the generator, while you could have killed some more cultist. After that you could have decapped his points. Banshees are not building killers, but if you decap his points, he won't hurt you much longer.