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Increase the number or the strength of their heavy weapons.
Especially the plasma.
Cultists are just as good as marines when it comes to melee combat for cost, but for cap they're pathetic. By buffing heavy weapons, you can make them decent for cap. If you increase their meatshield strength, they'll easily become abusive.
I would simply like to see them put on par with Guardians, exchanging their Melee strength to equal Guardian Ranged, and for their ranged to equal Guardian Melee. Simply invert their comparative values. Give them the same cost, landspeed, squad cap size, hit points, and reinforce cost and speed of reinforcing.
At the moment this is not the case, and they are clearly the weakest of the tier 0 units.
not true, cultists for cost are equal to tier 1 units. They're great for meatshields, and enemy forces have a massive tendency to overkill cultists and waste firepower.
Cultists + CSMs can block a slugga rush. The sluggas chase the CSMs, the cultists block the path. The sluggas attack the cultists, the cultists run away. It becomes a micro war.
#4
Cultists are so fragile they die to sluagga ranged fire. The big mek will kill a slugga in 1 or 2 hits from his pistol. If they don't have grenade launchers an ork player can either;
A) Ignore them, the extra micro to keep sluggas chasing the CSM is small
B) Fight the cultists and kill them in about 4 seconds.
Chriss is that IG hater he wanted them to nerf everything about igs
the cultists will run away from sluggas.
okay, i can't do this anymore. i can't do three cultists on chaos anymore, gonna experiment with two cultists. \=. This has been my baby for too long, my sacred cow.
Last edited by Inst; 28th Jan 05 at 5:41 PM.
#6
![[Vertigo]'s Avatar](avatars/avatar30739_14.gif "[Vertigo]'s Avatar"){kind=avatar}
Inst, we already have a thread going on this subject.
http://forums.relicnews.com/showthread.php?t=54939
What happens in Greenville, SC stays in Greenville, SC.
One aspect of being a "meatshield" is to absorb damage. Which Cultists cannot. Not even remotely. Their slow reinforce time heightens this. If subjected to ranged fire, which pretty much every unit has, they die in seconds.
They have the lowest hit points of any non-builder in the game (and 3/4ths of the builders have more). And the second lowest armor in the game. They take up 2 slots.
And please don't even begin to compare Cultists and Slugga Boyz, one of the best units in DoW.
you're out of your mind, i'm not saying clutists can kill slugga boyz. I'm saying cultists can block sluggas from reaching the CSMs. Fulfilling their function as meatshields, but in a different way than the traditional RTS method.
I can see what you are saying Inst however I have also noticed that no matter what direction you go, aside from in to the CSM squads, the cultists then will no longer be able to block the Orkz. Going in to the CSM squads equates to the squad you are trying to keep protected getting in to melee or having to run, which at that point they have to keep running.
You will typically run in to 2 squads of orks in the early game and your trying to use 2 sets of squads to beat them, neither of which can hold out to them so the end result is basically all your squads constantly retreating, which is pretty much no damage to the Orkz while they are shooting you in the back.
i usually use 3 sets of cultists. The cultists will do nothing until the CSM comes online. Cultists do deal a slight amount of damage while they're blocking the sluggas. It works for me, though at my level of play I can't really say anything.
Once they are in CC they take much reduced dmg from your CSM (or any ranged). And in the one sneeze duration it takes them to kill your cultists they will then walk over and pound your CSM's.
But you go ahead with your 3 Cultist squads.
The only problem with cultists is they cost 2 pop. If they cost 1 pop you would see all their good sides like being extremelly cheap. They have more hitpoints per 100 req than marines. A nice pop 1 cultist squad would be 4/8 with no ability to build champions as that would make them too powerful, maybe 2 (1 before armoury research) heavy weapons allowed.
Then you wouldn't feel cheated for their cap cost and their other pluses would be easier to notice. And their reinforcement speed would be practically doubled since you can have twice as many squads.
I would just like them to have a little more life and reduce reenforce time from 12 to 10.
#14
some top players use 4 cultist squads and use them for suicide decaps later.
#15
Let me guess: The one builder that has lower HP than cultists are the chaos builders, heretics.They have the lowest hit points of any non-builder in the game (and 3/4ths of the builders have more). And the second lowest armor in the game. They take up 2 slots.
Originally Posted by Wikipedia
By top players of course you mean top Chaossome top players use 4 cultist squads and use them for suicide decaps later.
I did some take&hold and ran some Cultists to opposite points to try and suicide decap. One even had some back-up troops. They died before they came even close.
I was getting rushed by an Eldar one game by his Bonesinger who was beating on my Cultists trying to cap. I had to reinforce them. AGAINST A BUILDER!
So, a) they better be Critical points because ANY kind of Listening post, upgraded or not and it's pretty much immune to Cultists b) there better not be any enemies between that point and your cultists c) there better not be any units who remotely care about keeping the point, because they'll kill you before you get halfway.
for christ's sake, the two things holding down cultists are slow reinforce speed, and a lack of cap effectiveness.
not a single unit in the game has less HP than the cultist. They have the lowest HP in the game, at 95. [Vertigo]'s advised change to cultists won't work, because then cultists will be hypervulnerable to area of effect abilities like smite and psychicstorm. Grenades too, maybe artillery. His change is basically the same as changing the cultist to 7 second reinforce.
If you have to reinforce to stop a bonesinger banging away at the cultist, as long as you reinforce less than or equal to 3 and kill the bonesinger, there's no loss for cost.
By lack of cap effectiveness, I never replace dead cultist squads. Maybe this causes me to lose since gren launchers are very effective before tier 2, but you simply can't spend enough on cultists. Cultists can have a potential of 225 invested in them, compared to the same amount on scouts. Cultists are cost effective, because for HP, they're fine, and for attack ability they're equal to marines in melee combat.
Actually, let me ask a question. What was wrongw ith cultists in the first place? At 5 second reinforce, this was 19 HP per second recovery, which is signfiicantly worse than the 30hp per second recovery on marines.
Aron, heretic has more hitpoints, he was allluding to gretchin I think.
I agree with Inst. If you make cultist pop 1 you effectively double their reinforce speed since you have twice as many squads of them. Maybe 10 member squads are a bit big for that, 8 seem fine. 3 heavy weapons seem a bit much, either nerf them a bit (their cost too) and give them 4 or give them 2 of the current ones.
BUT make nades do friendly damage too. It's unrealistic and can be abused.
/edit: may need to give nades less travel time though, and the arc they make is like a mortar not a grenade launcher.
#19
Psy Storm does NOT kill cultists with [Vertigo]'s changes. The cultists reinforce during the effect, so the squad survives. Grenades kill lots of them but not all And as for artillery... it kills them yes, but by the time Arty comes out you should have AC for the squad, so it will still live, and come back rapidly. And then the squad comes back. Plus... why are people using very good and expensive artillery on a sacrificial unit?[Vertigo]'s advised change to cultists won't work, because then cultists will be hypervulnerable to area of effect abilities like smite and psychicstorm. Grenades too, maybe artillery. His change is basically the same as changing the cultist to 7 second reinforce.
People seem to be missing the point here. Cultists SHOULD lose to everything. They should just lose SLOWLY. That way you have time to get some more forces and do something about whatever it is. Hence they should be cheap, quick to build and reinforce, but still really weak.
Let's Play Europa Universalis 3: Divine Wind
Let's Play Master of Magic: Abandoned
In the beginning there was nothing. Then Steam crashed.
#20
Could I just point out that a squad of cultist hiting a squad of caping scouts in CC will not be able to kill them before the point is decaped, then the scouts run away and so much for defending the point....
guys you missed the basics of the game. a cultist squad cap 2, seems a rape, but it isnt'. are the races differences, you have raptors/CSM squad of 11 with leader, for a cap of 2. a space marine have 9 ASM/SM squad for a cap of 2. scouts are 4 at maximum, cultist are 11, and have awesome upgrades (grenade launcher). is not unbalanced, just different!
A fully reinforced cultist squad has about the same total health as a fully reinforced scout squad. Cultists do have their uses but I think an issue just arises when a marine player can make double the amount of scout squads compared to cultist squads. We all know getting requisition IS important, same for tying up enemy squads and chaos seems really fugged in this aspect. I doubt its really meant as a "racial difference" though.
Either cultists get a buff in this area or allow heretics to cap points too.
#23
Before anybody critisises anything just tink about it: What is the worst thing that could happen if Cultists got a cap cost of 1? Seriously, they wouldn't be able to rush 'cause they have so crappy hp.
Well, yeah... drop the amount of heavy weapons for every cultist squad to 2 from 3, that compensates for the extra heavy weapons / food somewhat.
#25
Well, maybe cultist should just get one Heavy weapon by default, and then get three with the upgrade in the armoury.
Also doubles the amount of available AC's which is a problem.
#27
Eh? You can only have one Asp. Champ. in each squad, it has nothing to do with HW upgrades.
#28
Chaos goes fast armoury and builds 10 cultist squads with grenade launchersWhat is the worst thing that could happen if Cultists got a cap cost of 1?
#29
O, er right, but apart from a vertually unbeatable rush what would the problems be?
LOL, nice one, this reminds me of Monty Pythons' Life of Brian!
-"Apart from wine, sanitation, roads, ..., aqueducts what did the Romans ever do for us?"
-"Brought peace?"
...
No worries though it can still be fixed. Make pop 1 cultists not hav AC like scouts and rangers, and grenades have friendly damage so they can't be easily abused. There's some more balancing in order of course, like each cultist squad costing a pitiful 15 per member so instead of a 90 cost base scout you can get already (if pop 2) a 75 req cult. I think making the squad start with 6 members (90req) and max at 8 would be fine for pop 1 and no AC. And heavy weapons are 1 per squad till armoury upgrades make that 2 (not 3) unless you can make nerfed versions of the heavy weapons that cost half as much (and build twice as fast) and do less damage. Then you can get 2/4 heavy weapons in.
I think cultists are awesome for the cost and there pop cap. Early game Nade launchers are devastating to any other enemy unit, even marines go down fast with nade launcher support, ive been using early game nade launchers and tac squads with flamers + CL for a while now and it seems almost unstopable versus most other early game tactics :E
i just love a good cultist
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