A message to the AI coders of DoW

[zef.]

Firstly great game, DoW would win the award for best RTS EVER if it wasnt for one MAJOR problem: the AI or complete LACK of it. I am of course referring to your units complete and utter disregard for your orders/commands. "SPACE MARINES ATTACK MELE X GROUP" Space Marines if they even decide to obey those orders are not unknown to run up to the enemy like tools and stand there shooting whilst under hand to hand attack. And no this is not whilst using the stand your ground stance.

Also along a similar vain is your FC/Commander units complete stupidity. You try to extract him from a fight and what does he do? He stands there like a muppet shooting at the enemy whilst he gets his ass handed to him on a silver platter.

And then there is the complete and utter stupidity of all units when it comes to navigating terrain. Got several units in one group and want them to move to the other side of that mountain range to intercept an enemy attack? well good luck getting them to all go the same way. 60% of the time the group will break up and go BOTH SIDES of the obstacle often causing you to loose half your squad in the process and hence the battle. Now I understand that this is due to the individual units navigating via the "shortest route", however this is stupid when you have multiple units selected they should all go the ONE direction regardless of individual units having to travel slightly further. If thats not possible to code, Then add the ability to use waypoints. Either way will sort this problem.

THESE ARE NOT MINOR AI ISSUES. THEY ARE MAJOR PROBLEMS THAT HAVE ALMOST CAUSED ME TO QUIT PLAYING DoW PERIOD!

I have gotten so pissed off with the AI in DoW that I have sat there pumping out Space Marines for an hour on end only to slaughter every single one with friendly fire. or simply scuttling them.

If these were really troops under the command of the Emperor they would obey every order to the smallest detail. Failure would cost them their lives. Fix the friggin AI or lose at least 1 fan and probably alot more.

[thudmeizer]

Guy Guy GUY! For the final time: Skirmish AI has nothing to do with unit pathfinding. Its a game code/engine issue and for another thing: ALL RTS games out there suffer from flakey/wonky AI pathfinding issues and non-dynamic thinking Skirmish AI, period. Wait til 2010 when we have 10Ghz Processor, Physics and AI co-processors, and video cards that are so smart they can make you breakfast in the morning THEN we'll have the truest automated RTS ever!

I've played practically all RTSes out there since the glory days of Fall '92 when Dune2 was release - tell me what RTS out there actually has either decent pathfinding or human-like Skirmish AI? <silence>. I thought so. Perhaps MAYBE one or two come close but the game mechanics were simplistic compared to the many variables involved with DoW.

Hey.. I'm on your side: I'd love those things you request but Relic is trying their best and hopefully the WinterAssault expansion will add more features so missing from the original (see sig below RELIC!).

[zef.]

Hence you have waypoints to counter flakey pathfinding skills. Waypoints fixes the problem because you can tell multiple units to go from location a to location b via c. and unless you have some seriously fucked terrain or the units are miles apart they will all go the same way.

[Burns]

Play online, its the best AI you'll ever get.

[WalkerK19]

He's refering to the unit AI. Not the online experiences

Edit: your not the only one who got this problem. I've notice several time that my unit sometimes doesn't respond correctly. Like when one of them sent flying by a blast, and left behind... the other units tend to go back to where one of they're mates fell. I find this bit annoying especially when trying to dance away from enemy. Maybe a good idea if the rest of the squad follow a single unit for pathfinding.

[Robcucio]

If thats not possible to code, Then add the ability to use waypoints. Either way will sort this problem.

Waypoints already exist zef. Shift then right-click for each waypoint.

[zef.]

Play online, its the best AI you'll ever get.

This is online. Im reffering to individual Squad/Unit AI not computer controlled enemy AI.


Waypoints exist? hrmmm ill have to try that, if it works its an undocumented feature to the best of my knowledge. Searched the manuals and everything to see if I could find out how to do it with no luck. Ill give it a go next time im in a game tho.

[TheDeadlyShoe]

Ctrl-click, or control right click. I forget, it's muscle memory for me.

Doing this will queue these orders after the current order. For example, you order a Scout Squad to capture a LP normally, then you waypoint a couple other LPs and it will capture the extras automatically.

[Robcucio]

It's shift. I just said that! :Slap:

[zef.]

wow waypoints do work. Well thats one minor annoyance i dont have to worry about, thanks Robcucio.

[Robcucio]

No problem. Like TheDeadlyShoe said, it can be used to queue tasks, making it really powerful. You can harrass the enemy while your scouts take points by themselves, or have your builder build a LP then tell it that when it finishes that it should build a generator.

[Albi]

zef, dude don't you hate that!

LOL, glad you found out the game is not all that bad, maybe a little more research before coming in here angry.

[zef.]

heh I thought I had looked everywhere for info on waypoints. Obviously I skimped on something tho. I still hate the unit AI for its general lack of combat effectiveness. However the waypoint ability is bloody good. Alot better than waypoints in most games.

I was incredibly pissed when I wrote the first post, I had just lost 2 games because of the inability of my troops to obey orders and either go hand to hand or target the enemy FC.

[Aron_DeTomado]

Firstly, don't trust the manual. You might as well take playing lessons from a gold fish.
Secondly, units failing to engage in CC is due to a bug of some sort (not the F2 bug), and is a (I think) known problem.

[zef.]

Good it will be fixed then =D

[Quitch]

@7

Don't worry, every time a topic has AI in the title some idiot always comes in and posts that. It's a law of the RTS universe and I've yet to see it broken.

Personally I find the unit AI a little lacking and unresponsive. I'm used to Warcraft III where click = action, not pause, processing, then action.

[Sps]

Guy Guy GUY! For the final time: Skirmish AI has nothing to do with unit pathfinding. Its a game code/engine issue and for another thing: ALL RTS games out there suffer from flakey/wonky AI pathfinding issues and non-dynamic thinking Skirmish AI, period. Wait til 2010 when we have 10Ghz Processor, Physics and AI co-processors, and video cards that are so smart they can make you breakfast in the morning THEN we'll have the truest automated RTS ever!

I've played practically all RTSes out there since the glory days of Fall '92 when Dune2 was release - tell me what RTS out there actually has either decent pathfinding or human-like Skirmish AI? <silence>. I thought so. Perhaps MAYBE one or two come close but the game mechanics were simplistic compared to the many variables involved with DoW.

Hey.. I'm on your side: I'd love those things you request but Relic is trying their best and hopefully the WinterAssault expansion will add more features so missing from the original (see sig below RELIC

AI - i agree - arguably so - pathfinding tho - absolutely not.

I would really like to see the day when people stop kissing relics ass and point them to a simple place like http://www.planetsourcecode.com/, where there is even an example of a VB6 code which provides an example of pathfinding/collision detection with insane ease and insane speed for several thousand objects at once which is quite enough for a 20/20 pop in a 4v4 where each individual unit finds its way.....

I am not being disrespectful just brutaly honest and I know enough to know when someone bullshits their way out of shit job.

if a 16 year old can do it - i think rts of the year developer could too.

[Black Xavier]

even if waypoint are good that don't solve the poor AI problems Relic shoul fix the Artificial Dumbness where possible

[mlai]

Ok, is it "CONTROL + RIGHT CLICK," or is it "SHIFT + RIGHT CLICK"???

I once tried to waypoint the following with a Rhino and 1 SM squad:

1. Load squad into Rhino.

2. Unload squad at point X.

3. Then use smoke grenade launcher at point Y.

I don't know what happened, but something seriously screwed up. A minute later I went back to check on the AI half of my "automated 2-prong assault." End result was 1 missing Rhino and 1 broken squad running around like headless chickens. (I do know the Rhino got to where it was meant to go, BTW.)

That was the last time I tried using waypoints. Or Rhinos for that matter.

[Aron_DeTomado]

Rhinos are the gods of bad pathfinding. Don't use them. Just don't.

[thudmeizer]

Rhinos are the gods at being the most useless unit in DoW **BAR NONE** hence the reason someone is doing a major Rhino -> Razorback -> Vindicator Mod that looks to ensure that this isn't the case. I do hate RTSes out there where 1-3 units never ever get used due to the gameplay mechanics.

EVERY UNIT SHOULD BE USEFUL IN ANY TIER, PERIOD!

Btw, hears praying that Relic does many more feature updates to the DoW engine when WinterAssault arrives.. <hoping>

[komninosm]

Look at the back of your manual, where it say Command Queue. Mine has shift next to it.

[TheDeadlyShoe]

Sps, you have no idea what will or will not work in DoW for pathfinding. So don't bullshit about it and then congratulate yourself on your clarity.

[General Blaze]

I am not being disrespectful just brutaly honest and I know enough to know when someone bullshits their way out of shit job.

Brutally honest is different from being disrespectful. (aka, being a dick)

You on the other hand are very disrespectful. ALL human life makes mistakes. No ONE DENIES it. Heck, I get annoyed about the bugs too, but the fact that you go and make a big fuss about every time you get. I see why Relic doesn't post here much. WHO on earth would want to talk to a community if the community act like dick heads. Yes, I know it's the internet, THEY know it's the internet. I for sure wouldn't want to talk to a bunch of fuckheads if this is how they treat me.

Ayways, yes the pathfinding can be annoying (Especially the Rhino pathfinding) but then again, most RTS has this problem anyway, so I'm not too annoyed about that. Could be worse though. (Let's say if you select a group of units, 2 or 3 of them will stay right where they are. (Ground Control 2 Comes into mind) )

[vonsatan]

AI - i agree - arguably so - pathfinding tho - absolutely not.

I would really like to see the day when people stop kissing relics ass and point them to a simple place like http://www.planetsourcecode.com/, where there is even an example of a VB6 code which provides an example of pathfinding/collision detection with insane ease and insane speed for several thousand objects at once which is quite enough for a 20/20 pop in a 4v4 where each individual unit finds its way.....

I am not being disrespectful just brutaly honest and I know enough to know when someone bullshits their way out of shit job.

if a 16 year old can do it - i think rts of the year developer could too.

dude, don't make statements about things you obviously don't have a clue about. Game coding is not a process of cutting and pasting code. Sure, simple pathfinding with a simple environment is easy.... but intoduce all the variables of the 3D game world and the calculations increase dramatically. Also consider the multitude of other things modern games have to calculate....especially an RTS.

I know, how about we get rid of all the pretty graphics and scripting so you can have a better path around a mountain?

Why must you abuse the people who worked so hard to create this game? Would you rather they released it in a year or 2 when its possible to have better pathfinding AI?


hmmm

[General Blaze]

Although I dislike Sps, I know how he feels. Stressfull BETA testing can do a LOT towards a player's patience. I've met a few people who've played World of Warcraft since the BETA and they stopped playing after the first few months when the full version went gold.

He DOES know a thing or two about coding though, so don't sell him too short. (He made a temporary Bonesong fix.)

So yeah. After seeing Sps's attitude, I DON'T ever want to participate in ANY BETA test in order to preserve the fun factor.

[vonsatan]

If you do anything too much you are at risk of getting bored of it and coming to dislike it..... just ask any dev company's QA team how frustrating testing can be. (i know ur reading this pointy boy ...bludger... :bandit

.... although tempted...i wont make any comments about the "bonesong fix" and whether or not it entails coding.

[Dymo]

To the OP. In your Main menu Options, make sure the Auto Attack Move(?) selection is turned OFF. This will cause the AI to act on its own under battle conditions. You will see an improved unit reaction response with it off.

As for the other stuff, it seems to be being looked after by the others. Enjoy DoW. Go Online. It is wicked addictive. :bandit:

[zef.]

Its wicked fucking adictive untill your god damn fucked up dumb ass space marine squads decide to do the complete fucking oposite of your orders and get slaughtered for the umpteenth time because of it.

Not playing again untill there is a fucking Unit AI fix PERIOD. Fix the god damn shit. I dont care if people say im being to harsh on relic or whatever. I payed money for the bloody game the least I expect from an RTS is for my units to do what I tell them and NOT behave like complete and Utter dumbasses. God damn sick of companies releasing half finished products. If I sold a computer to someone that was buggy do you think id get the option of performing maitenance every now and then for a year to smooth the bugs? God no. Id get maybe one or two chances to fix the problem ASAP before they demanded a refund.

Dynmo, you obviously didnt read my post. Perhaps go back and read it again? This has nothing to do with attack move being on or off. Tho im sure they would do all sorts of other stupid things with it on (i have it off).

Oh and if I have to wait for the expansion pack to introduce some half decent Unit AI then I wont be buying it or any relic badged product again (which would be a shame because I have always been a fan of relic since good ol' Homeworld). This isnt some pseudo fan blackmail "ill never buy your products again waaahhhh waaaahh" bs its simply a statement of fact. I dont know wether or not relic care if they loose one insignificant consumer or not, and nor do I care.

Whinge, bitch, moan, flame away as you see fit.

[Aron_DeTomado]

I payed money for the bloody game

And you agreed on the Lisence Agreement when you installed the game.

[zef.]

Yes I did. Got a point? A) technicially alot of what is said in them isnt legal. B) like I care?

[Aron_DeTomado]

Well, did the Lisence Agreement say anything about you being entitled to a refund if the game wasn't tweaked to your liking?

[zef.]

Did I ask for a refund? Hardly. I got some damn good game time out of it in any case. I also got somme damn frustrating gameplay experiances as well. Refund? HAH. Read before you post.

[Aron_DeTomado]

Allow me to rephrase:
Did the lisence agreeement say anything about you being entitled to vent your frustration on these fromus if you didn't like the game?

[zef.]

Allow me to retort:

Probably not, but I will do so anyway as I please. As I said before alot of what is said in a EULA isnt legally binding. In particular any phrase stating that by agreeing to the EULA you waive your right to criticize the product.

My basic rights as a consumer allow me the freedom to express my displeasure with a product I have purchased. Even if the THQ/Relic EULA I "agreed" with said I couldnt do so, I will do as I please and make my statements. You might have had a better argument stating that the EULA I agreed to upon joining this forum prohibited the use of "foul language", which it probably did. I didnt read that one to closely.

Ill vent where I please, want something done to curb that get a mod to ban me.
Conversation black carded unless you can come up with a more solid point to base your argument on.

[Aron_DeTomado]

My basic rights as a consumer allow me the freedom to express my displeasure with a product

and

Ill vent where I please

I beleave you are referring to freedom of speech and that does not exist here (you can't discuss CD-piracy for example).
Now could a mod please lock this thread since it has obviously lost it's purpose.

[zef.]

*yawn* no rights as a consumer. There is a difference. And I realise that freedom of speech does not exist on a internet forum. Im not a complete nob. Thread lost its purpose when you started talking about bloody EULAs.

[Inferior Being]

Zef's completely right.
He looses, so then the game has to be bad.
Really, if the pathfinding was THAT terrible, surely it ought to have been brought up before...?

[zef.]

FFS IM OVER THE PATH FINDING! LEARN TO READ! I WAS UNAWARE THAT THERE WAS THE ABILITY TO WAYPOINT! MY BAD! NOW DROP THE WHOLE PATHFINDING THING! (undocumented feature as far as ive seen, still havent found it stated in a manual or anything).

ATM I win on average 80% of my games, although my score wont reflect this due to loosing lots when I started.

What shits me is the utter stupidity of the unit AI and its unresponsiveness (is that even a word!?!). Also people who are unable to read before posting their stupid comments shit me.

[Inferior Being]

O.K, if the AI was that bad, it ought to have been brought up before...
what I've heard of, is the F2 bug, units getting stuck and the like, but none of this has been brought up enough to assume it's a great big problem.

[Soulblighter]

zef. continue to post in the way in which you displayed throughout this entire thread and you will be banned. thread locked.