Exterminatus: True to TT40k DoW Mod - 0.2 Released (1.3 working)

[Gromij]

Hey,

I came up with a pretty cool idea for a mod, and im thinking of making it, but im unsure if someone else is doing the same yet.

Basically, im not changing anything but I will make the units truer to table top.

For example, dark reapers and warpspiders. Dark reapers have a 4+ save so i would make them infantry_high, warpspiders are 3+ so heavy_medium. Sluggas on the other hand are 6+ so I would make them infantry_low.

Dark reaper launcher is strength 5 ap3. so anything with a 3+ save or worse it has full penetration against, but not against things with invulnerable or 2+ saves.

Warpspider launcher is S6 ap6 so it has a better chance of wounding but only defeats a 6+ save, anything else it will have to pass the armour save.

Power weapons will actually ignore armour like they should, meaning full penetration vs everything.

I will use armour penetrations accurate to table top. For example, a warpspider shooting a space marine scout (4+ save, will be infantry_high) will have a .50 penetration as it has a half chance of passing the 4+ save.

I will also change weapons initial damage depending on weapon strength.

It may sound unbalanced a bit at first, but I will rebalance it with cost and other things of the like.

In table top one dark reaper costs more than two space marines or 5 guardians.

Vehicle penetration would be done similar I suppose, but I wouldnt make it quite as one hit kill. Ill just try and input the penetration for vehicle types relating to their armour. Eg. 10 would be vehicle_low, 12 would be vehicle_medium and 14 would be vehicle_high. Inbetween would see increases or decreases in HP.

Anti tank weapons would do a penetration value to each armour type accurate to their performance against each armour type in table top.

I reckon this would make for a more explosive and tactical game.

I would of course stress to make it balanced.

Thoughts?

Morgan

[Sigismund]

Well, you've got a ton of work ahead of you. Because your going to have to change EVERY weapon and EVERY unit and building. Good luck to ya.

[n0z3k1ll3r]

That's... clever... but time consuming. I'll be interested to see the results regardless.


Also you'll need at least one more armour type, for units with no save at all, and probably a few more for invulnerable saves. Sorry for increasing the workload

[Gromij]

heh thanks for the enthusiasm.

Ive planned it all out, you can see what i plan for penetration values here http://home.graffiti.net/jmwp:graffiti.net/modplan.txt

Also, I may have to impose the heavy weapon limits of table top as well, because i just tested it with my new plasma, and it massacres!

Although I have not yet changed costs or anything. I will leave them to the end.

So far I have done all space marine bolters, bolt pistols, close combat weapons except powerfists, and all plasma weapons.

You're right, for invulnerable saves I will have to create unit specific armour classes i guess. It shouldnt be too difficult though

I may also make changes to my plan, as a half DoW half table top may produce some problems. Ill just have to see what happens

[n0z3k1ll3r]

Are you putting Wounds and Attacks into the equation anywhere? What about the different weapon types, like assault and rapid fire?

And yeah you'll still need to add an infantry_none in for grots and so forth.

[Gromij]

For attacks im changing the reload speed on close combat.

eg. the sergeant with 2 attacks has a reload of 0.5, a force commander with 4 attacks has a reload of 0.25, an average space marine has a reload of 1.

For extra wounds ill multiply hp. Eg 3 wounds on toughness 4 = 350x3 = 1050hp.

Yeah, I will add an armour class that takes full penetration from all weapons, but the only effect it will really have is on gretchins in close combat. Or gretchins being fired upon by lasguns of the imperial guard :o

Can anyone tell me the magnitude of the movement values?

Eg. 16 movement, is that 16 units per 10 seconds or what?

[Gromij]

Yay for progress.

Ive decided I will complete this and then release it to anyone else who wants to enjoy the.. joys of table top on screen.

Ive had to restart a couple of times due to the luas becoming very messy, but Ive worked out a pattern now and its coming along very cleanly.

Ive created several new armour classes, and due to the limit of 15 ive had to create a universal class for vehicles and buildings, structure_high, structure_medium and structure_low.

The space marines are almost finished. Ive got all the units into their new armour classes, and Ive finished all their weapons except for lascannons, assault cannon, autocannon and missiles.

Ive also made the LP3 worth getting, as the heavy bolter it mounts is a gatling megaweapon And i may consider long barrel as well depending on how powerful other race LP3's are.

The new armour class system feels really good when your in it. The heavy bolters absolutely massacre scouts, but dont do so much versus marines. Plasma massacres both but the heavy bolter is still much faster at killing lighter units.

I have decided I cant go all the way to table top, as that would mean one shot from the plasma gun kills a marine. So I have given them enough hp to give them a fair bit of survivability.

Ive got rapid fire working in the idea that they reload every 1 second, but if they are moving they take a 50% damage penality to constitute them not getting the second shot. Maybe if i become more advanced in the lua coding I can give them a damage bonus of 100% when the enemy is within 12 and the marines are stationary instead.

Though I have two questions.
1) Is the landraiders heavy bolter a single twin linked heavy bolter or is it two heavy bolters or is it even two twin linked heavy bolters :S

2) I still dont know how the speed converts I looked through LUAs trying to find out but its not there. I suppose If i cant get an answer ill have to find a suitable speed once im done.

I have updated the mod plan to show invulnerable saves and how they have been classed.

http://home.graffiti.net/jmwp:graffiti.net/modplan.txt

Morgan

[Cable]

This mod looks awesome...... I want it now..... in essence its a 'reality' mod and its coming on in leaps and bounds...

The Land Raiders HB's are twin-linked.

Any chance of a release date?

[Gromij]

Space marines are almost complete, I just have to finish melee values.

After that a space marine vs space marine match will be doable. Although I have not changed the costs of units so for cost units may not be balanced.

The Land Raiders HB's are twin-linked.

So it has two twin linked heavy bolters?

Also, I noticed that while the LP3's weapon is referred to as a heavy_bolter in the LUA, it looks exactly like an assault cannon only much bigger. So its now an assault cannon gatling mega weapon with a long barrel.

Ive also managed to work out the rending of assault cannons in, and those guns really dish out the hurt. They have the highest raw damage as it is and i think rending probably makes them the most effective gun in the game overall.

Anti tank weapons like rockets and lascannons are still far more effective versus armour.

And with the tanks new level of survivability im going to have to drop some of their costs a bit.

I should have a version with space marine vs space marine finished by wednesday. I wont be changing any costs until ive finished all the races. Ill do orks next.

[Gromij]

ok ok. Here is space marine vs space marine.

Heres a basic run down of what I have done.

All weapons now have penetration values equal to their percentage chances of penetrating in table top, and strength values equal to tabletop.

All weapons rates of fire have been brought into line with tabletop. It works out as one firing phase = 2 seconds. So a weapon which fires once per phase will fire every 2 seconds.

For rapid fire Ive made them shoot every one second, but the damage is halved when moving. I couldnt find a way to properly implement stationary within 12 inches.

All weapons have ranges equal to their table top range in units. So for example bolters have a range of 24 units.

I couldnt figure out how to disallow firing into combat, so ive simply made units in combat take 90% less damage. This is because, with the low survivability of units, close combat units would get obliterated when they were taking ranged damage fire all the time even when in combat.

There are 3 vehicle classes, light medium and high. At the moment landraider is high, landspeeder whirlwind and rhino are low, everything else is medium. Most buildings are medium, some low, the HQ is high.

I have removed knockdowns for the whirlwind missile launcher and for smite. This is because, with one missile flying every 2 seconds, it was possible for a whirlwind to keep a small force off its feet indefinitely until they were killed. Smite for the same reason, as it now fires automatically like any ranged weapon and has a reload of 2 seconds. It has been modified to be the same power as it is in table top.

Scouts have the same BS as marines, so they now do the exact same damage. CC and ranged, and with any weapon upgrades.

As a dreadnought with no weapon in table top doesnt actually do any more damage than a dreadnought with one, ive simply given a dread with two free arms an extra attack.

Grenades now knockdown a bigger radius but do no damage and have a range of 12. Meltas reload after 15 seconds, and do a strength 8 2d6AP hit, with a range of 6 (to make it more like the marines are assaulting the vehicle, as must be done in order to use meltas in table top). Both grenades are now researched at the armoury, as I have removed the accuracy and health upgrades.

The commander upgrades each add 1 wound and 1 attack to both commanders.

Both commanders have articifer armour, giving the librarian a 2+ and the force commander a 2+/4+ armour save. The librarian does get a force weapon which is slightly better than a power sword, and he also gets smite, which more than makes up for the armour difference. And when the force commander gets his thunder hammer he becomes a lot more powerful also

The LP2 isnt very effective versus heavy infantry or even scouts as it mounts a single stormbolter. I may change this later. The LP3 on the other hand has an assault cannon which is a long barreled mega weapon. I removed gatling because it was destroying even dreadnaughts and landraiders in seconds.

I have given all units double their amount of wounds that they have on table top. This is because, as a firing phase works out to be about two seconds, the guys just dont have any livability. I can either make them run faster so they almost get their movement phase in or I can slow down firing, which wouldnt look good. So I have doubled their health, and now an average toughness 4 marine with 1 wound is 80hp. The FC by comparison is 240hp, as he has 3 wounds.

All units also have the proper amount of attacks.

All vehicles have 200hp (100 represents chances to actually penetrate, the other 100 is because there is a half chance of actually destroying the vehicle when you do penetrate) and take accurate damage from weapons. The landspeeder only has 150hp as I calculated that was how much it should have with open topped.

The force commander now begins with a basic power weapon, which may later be upgraded to a thunder hammer at the library. The daemon hammer of fairy land no longer exists. Effectively, the force commander having a thunder hammer combined with the librarian having smite, makes one more close combat based and the other more ranged based. The librarian, with his force weapon, is still very effective in close combat.

There are no longer librarian upgrades or force commander upgrades other than the storm hammer at the sacred artifact. When I think of some, ill put them there.

Scouts move as fast as normal space marines now, but still take no penalties for moving through cover, as in table top they move faster through difficult terrain.

Assault marines now move twice as fast as average infantry, but im working on reducing the speed at which they fly using the jump ability to this same speed. This way they may fly into close combat at the speed they should without taking too many casualties, but may also fly over obstacles like they can in table top. This ability no longer needs to be recharged.

I have not yet modified special attacks. This will be done soon.

Known problems are:
Upgrading scouts to have plasma guns or flamethrowers removes the little scout profile picture.
The force commander will not appear to have the thunder hammer after upgrading except when in close combat. But he does have it.
The force commander doesnt appear to have a plasma pistol after upgrading to it. But he does have it :smash:
The armoury research all appears on the bottom line.

If anyone finds any more problems, or knows how to fix one of these, please share

This is not the finished space marine team, but its pretty much there.

I also havent yet done anything to skull probes.

After these quick touch ups, ill start on the orks.

Here is the link. Space marines are the only team that have the new stuff in them, so playing any match other than space marines vs space marines is quite pointless.

Extract the zip file to your dawn of war directory, then click "Run_Exterminatus.bat" which will be in the DoW directory

http://home.graffiti.net/jmwp:graffi...terminatus.zip (110kb)

Ill call it version 0.1

Gromij

[Jewdie]

Why do you want to implement the balance of a table top game into a real time strategy game that needs completely different balance?

[Grimnar42]

Because he wants to ??

[EdCase]

Hmmm , if all races are completed this way...then won't it BE balanced , at least to the TT game

[Flenser]

Looking forward to trying this

Balance is a major issue. As I understand it Relic wanted to ensure that cheap early units would retain their utility even in the late game by turning the TT game into a game of rock-paper-scissors. This mod turns that on its head.

Re-balancing it with cost etc. is one way to go, but there is an alternative. The best way (IMHO) to play this mod would be to match it up with the Setup Armies Mod. That way you almost totally replicate the TT game, since the Setup Armies Mod will (eventually) have a front-end that allows you to set points limits and choose armies based on those points. Building new units in-game is not allowed.

The combination of points-based armies and TT-accurate damage, armour, movement etc would be fantastic. I would love to see these two mods come together

Sadly the Setup Armies Mod seems to be languishing for now, but it is in a playable state.

Flenser

[Dave_flameboy]

It would'nt bee balanced to begin with but after tweeking and changing costs it could become balanced, anyway even if its not i would still enjoy playing a whole new game play side to DoW

[Jakaero]

One slight comment, as this is looking really good:

I believe that the TT rules state that the landspeeder is NOT, in fact, open-topped, due to the fact that the marines are heavily armored.

[Gromij]

ahh you're exactly right. Ill change that.

Progress has been non existance over the last couple of weeks as ive been focusing totally on getting models into the game with no success so far :o But it looks like thats about to change

In any case, im not working further til 1.3 is released. And ill probably start fresh with the new format rather than convert, as it does tend to get messy.

[Hands_of_Fate]

Well, looks like someone did exactly what I wanted to do
Good luck with the mod Gromij. I really look forward to see this in action. A pity that patch mod tools 1.3 will arrive a bit later and hindered it all. I hope that it wouldn't require rescripting stuff.

And to all ya unbelievers out there, yes, all races can be balanced using unit cap, starting sizes, costs and build times.

Kudros to you man!

[jafisher4444]

Well, I just played a game of this mod. I have to say it is by far one of the best balance mods I have had the opportunity to play. It feels a little more real. Units actually die. It always bothered me in regular DoW that units could stand around under a hail of fire. I think it is nice that marines with bolters really have no chance to kill off a LP, and that defenses are something to be feared. Thanks for this mod. I am really interested to see it finished.

[Gromij]

thanks, that feels good

Ill put up my latest version up sometime tomorrow. Its got orks and space marines done weapons wise, but the researches havent been worked out yet so I havent got them in. Might as well seeing as it wont work once 1.3 is released.

[Aron_DeTomado]

This sounds promising, best of luck to you.

BTW, here's a fairly crazy idea on the rapid fire(and since I cannot mod I have no idea if it would work): How about giving units special CC knockback attacks, like the ones from heros. BUT: You increase the range and damage appropriatly and take away the knockback effect. This might allow units to get special fire when at certain range.
Just me brainstorming...

[Gromij]

sounds interesting

Ill put up my latest version up sometime tomorrow. Its got orks and space marines done weapons wise, but the researches havent been worked out yet so I havent got them in. Might as well seeing as it wont work once 1.3 is released.

sorry but this wont be happening now.. forgot how badly i butchered the squad caps and things when i was trying to create the different choices eg. troop choice, heavy choice, etc. And it will take a fair while to fix, not really worth it considering 1.3 is tomorrow :o

[jafisher4444]

Any updates on this mod? I long to see it finished.

[ratlover232]

Hey guys, I just came from another forum discussing the horribly unbalanced full race mods that are being released. Don't get me wrong, I really respect the time and effort the mod teams are pulling out of their of schedules to make these amazing modifications, but when the Tau equivilant of a scout squad can slaughter a full strength SM squad in 30 seconds and take only 2 causualties, somethings wrong. I thought it might be interesting for a balance team like this one to help balance the new races. Again, not trying to get on the modders backs, but just saying it might be something you might want to look into.

[Gromij]

Any updates on this mod? I long to see it finished.

Well this mod is pretty much completely a modification of the coding. When patch 1.3 for dawn of war is released, which is any day now, the coding format or something of the ilk is changing to binary. So all current mods will be broken.

So the way I see it, making progress now is pointless as it will all go down when 1.3 comes out.

But when appropriate tools to make the mod for 1.3 come out i will get into it. Ive already restarted it two or three times, and each time its cleaner, faster, and has less bugs as I have a better idea of what im doing.

Ratlover: If table top is balanced, then this mod will hopefully be also
I intend to use costs from table top to begin with, eg. 1 point = 3 req, and power would be used for buildings and researches. I also intend to bring in a time constant, eg. for reinforcement. Something like 10 req per second.
So for example, a space marine

15 points in tabletop = 45req
45req = 4.5 seconds to reinforce.

However, I think I will be disabling reinforce during battles... as you most definitely dont see that on the table :o. So basically its faster to rebuild armies and get them on the field, but once they are in combat they cant reinforce. You can send up fresh squads however, maybe even hold squads in reserve to take over so that your battle reduced squads can retreat and reinforce.

One issue I do see which may become a problem is close combat balance versus ranged. As ive made each phase 2 seconds, that means that units are going to be moving pretty fast, and dying pretty fast. It seems ok though, as ive upped the health to make units live a little longer. This does mean that close combat units get ripped apart very quickly at range if left alone, but they have a higher chance of getting into close combat if they charge in. I do intend to try and balance this better though.

In addition, ive found kill animations are a good way to represent a sweeping advance. While a single member of the squad is in close combat, the whole squad is counted as being in close combat for purposes of taking ranged damage (nil). So when a squad is finished and the last guy is doing a kill animation or what not, the squad still counts as being in close combat. So the men get sort of a free charge into close combat with the next squad.

Nonetheless i do intend to find a better way of representing this.

Im also considering making firing phases 3 or maybe even 4 seconds long. Consider how long you take to make your move in table top, it can be really hard to micro enough in two seconds because these guys die fast.

[TheLoneKnight]

You've mentioned adapting the stats to DoW from the Tabletop game, but I was curious on a number of things specific to Dawn of War:

First and foremost is the time factor. How fast will the units fire? How fast will they build? Will they all move at the same speed because they tend to move at the same speed in the TT?

Second: Resources. I understand that the units in the TT have a point cost, but how do you plan to adapt that to Dawn of War's construction model? After all, making a 15 point Space Marine adapt to a resource tree that involves requisition and electricity in relative abundance can't be too easy.

Finally, buildings. Aren't buildings fairly rare in the tabletop, and usually considered to be more or less part of the terrain? How do you plan on balancing the structures cost/armour/hp/damage ratio against the new unit stats?

It's all nice and well to have Space Marines being butchered by an LP, but should an LP then cost less than the Space Marines themselves?


Just a couple random questions I would love to see answered.


Also; Ratlover, why are you bringing that thread up in here, anyways? This isn't a racial mod.


Edit: The TT isn't balanced. Nor is it likely to ever be balanced. Best you can hope for is a game where luck is the deciding factor, which is pretty much what the TT is about anyways.

[jafisher4444]

Actually, I do not believe that the 1.3 patch will kill all of the mods. Most likely the new mod tools for 1.3 will be able to directly translate old .lua and other files to the new format. It is highly unlikely that the relic team entirely recoded the whole game for this patch, and translation programs are not that hard to make.

Aren't buildings fairly rare in the tabletop, and usually considered to be more or less part of the terrain? How do you plan on balancing the structures cost/armour/hp/damage ratio against the new unit stats?

There are many precedants for buildings in TT. It should not be difficult to balance them with other units in the game. Armed buildings such as LP and Turrets can be balanced as vehicles of similar armor values, cheaper by a little bit because they are not mobile and are therefor less versitile. As for other buildings that serve to further the cause, but do not contribute to battle directly they can be priced in a similar ratio of current DoW unit to building costs.

[TheLoneKnight]

Actually, I don't think that the mod editor will change it automatically.

However, Relic has stated that they'll be releasing a guide on how modders can alter their mods to work with the new system code.

[Gromij]

You've mentioned adapting the stats to DoW from the Tabletop game, but I was curious on a number of things specific to Dawn of War:

First and foremost is the time factor. How fast will the units fire? How fast will they build? Will they all move at the same speed because they tend to move at the same speed in the TT?

The units will fire the same rate they fire in table top, one firing phase will be two seconds. So for example, a weapon which is assault 2 fires once per second, and a heavy bolter which is heavy 3 fires every 0.666 seconds.
For now, things will build at a rate of 10 req per second. So for example a 45req space marine (15 x 3) will take 4.5 seconds to build. Im probably going to disable reinforcing during battle.

Second: Resources. I understand that the units in the TT have a point cost, but how do you plan to adapt that to Dawn of War's construction model? After all, making a 15 point Space Marine adapt to a resource tree that involves requisition and electricity in relative abundance can't be too easy.

For now, im translating the costs as 1 point = 3 req. Power will come into the equation for research and buildings, but i believe it will be too complex if i try to add unit power costs into the equation.

Finally, buildings. Aren't buildings fairly rare in the tabletop, and usually considered to be more or less part of the terrain? How do you plan on balancing the structures cost/armour/hp/damage ratio against the new unit stats?

It's all nice and well to have Space Marines being butchered by an LP, but should an LP then cost less than the Space Marines themselves?

Buildings are basically going to be as they are in dawn of war. Im making them kind of like immobile, superheavy vehicles but without guns. They can take a fair hammering, the space marine stronghold actually being 5 times stronger than a landraider, but they go down quite fast to anti vehicle weapons. I will balance the costs out for these once ive got it working.

As for turrets and listening posts, I will use the vehicle design rules to determine points cost.

Edit: The TT isn't balanced. Nor is it likely to ever be balanced. Best you can hope for is a game where luck is the deciding factor, which is pretty much what the TT is about anyways.

Yes, in table top luck is the deciding factor. But im bringing probability values into this which will, as games will consist of thousands of turns (one turn at the moment being 2 seconds), make it more standardized. In fact, its exactly the same kind of luck that already existed in dawn of war. Probabilities to hit, to pass armour, etc.

[Bolter Target]

Yah, this mod's sweet, a whole new game. Ashame it wasn't done this way originally, since it feels sooooooo much more realistic. Afterall, can you really expect 1 gun to destroy a whole base? Be great to see it go the full way [at least with the basic races] with dedicated AI too. [kinda funny watching enemy space marines attack your base for 30 mins with their bolters while you casually build up ignoring them the whole time.]

[Quietus Legion]

It seems this has thread has seen nothing new since the 1.3 so I'm not sure if the project is alive. I sincerily hope that it is.

Gromij: I salute you, a wonderfull idea (if you really can pull it off). While DOW is absolutely the best WH40K game ever made, I still long for some of the TT things for it (althouhgt some thinkgs in DOW are actually better). Now I have little to add on the modding itself as I have a rather limited knowledge on it, I could offer one warning on the balancing bit:
As has been pointed out TT is not balanced, because of the luck factor. I'd like to add to this that even discarding the luck factor TT is not balanced. Or to be more accurate it is balanced for the fact that people BUY the models and that they represent exactly what you can see them representing. So if you are going to balance things according to the TT rules, I advice you to remember that there is no money issue, nor good modelling talents, involved.
To give a concrete example: My friend and I played a TT game of SM vs IG and we did not restrict the equipment on the models we had (actually he did not and I did). Now as my friend (IG) knew I was going to play SM he bouhgt a plasma gun for every friggin' guardsman he could. I'm sure you know what this did to my marines and terminators? When the real modelling rules are followed, the massing of plasma gets a tad more harder, yes? Meaning the balance gets wrong when the limitations are lifted as they will be in your mod where you dont have to spend money to buy all tose plasma guardsmen, which will be a waste of money against some other races.

To be honest I'm not really sure if this would be an issue in your mod, but I thouhgt I'd try to contibute atleast something to this stupendious idea of yours.

[hybris]

I actually never noticed this mod project, so this weekend I started my own mod project to bring back some of the Warhammer 40k-feeling into Dawn of War.

An early test version of the mod can be downloaded here;
http://www.wh40k.se/DoWH40k-Alpha1.zip

Dawn of Warhammer 40k
This is just an alpha test of my mod, aimed to bring back some 40k-feeling into Dawn of War.
Please be kind to it until it have reached a beta stadium and got all its functions and alterations it's aimed to have.

This is how you install:
Simply unpack the zip-archive straight into your Dawn of War folder. Just make sure that you retain the internal folder structure of the zip file.
When you've unpacked all the contents, you should select the mod from your mod manager inside the game's internal menu.

What's been done in this version:
- The speed of all vehicles, units and heroes are set to correlate with those in WH40k.
- The cost of all vehicles, units and heroes are set to correlate with those in WH40k.
- The range of all vehicles, units and heroes are set to correlate with those in WH40k.
- The rate of fire for all weapons are set to correlate with those in WH40k.
- The setup time of all weapons are set to correlate with those in WH40k.

- The reinforcement time in battle are increased 999 times, which basically means that you only can reinforce units outside battles.
- Since the cost levels of WH40k are much lower than those in Dawn of War, the income rate has been lowered by 3.5, but the starting resources I have yet to find a way to alter.
- Land Speeders and Vypers can be reinforced to squads of up to three, like in WH40k.
- The Fireprism "knock back" effect has been removed completely, since it really makes no sense for a laser based weapon to have such an effect and it at the same time imblanced the Fireprism.
- The Dark Reaper Exarch Shuriken Cannon has been switched to an Eldar Missile Launcer instead, which makes a lot more sense for an upgrade.
- All minimum damage has been removed entirely. Now many light weapons can't even scratch the surface of a tank, like in WH40k.
- Many heavy weapons have been altered so that they now do as much damage to light infantry as they do to heavy, but just not as cheap or fast as weapons designed to counter light infantry.
- Corpse and destroyed vehicles now remains longer on the battlefield. Corpse are delayed by 30 seconds and vehicles by 60 seconds.
- Destroyed vehicles now effectively blocks path finding, while they remain on the battlefield.
- All races begins with a free hero and an additional basic unit.
- The Avatar, Bloodthirster and all heroes no longer counts towards the pop cap, to resemble their HQ choice free from the troop choices.
- Fleet of Foot now lowers the accuracy of the unit to 0%, as long as Fleet of Foot is active, to resemble the effect of the same ability in WH40k.
- Fleet of Foot no longer requires research, since it is a free gift in WH40k.
- Most research and building requirements has been removed, since this mod like the original game, is intended to balance its units through their cost, cap and usability instead of when they are availability.
- The health of all heroes, infantry, vehicles and buildings has been nerfed - a lot, but they still need some tweaking.

What still needs to be done:
- The damage ratio on all weapons has to be changed to those of WH40k.
- There are still some units and weapons that have wrong cost.
- Upgrades missing in Dawn of War has to be added.
- Some research options will be moved to individual squad upgrades instead. Like Farseer spell research, Exarch weapon upgrade and so on.
- Resource managing and the starting resources has to be tweaked, so that the rate and level feels good.
- All weapons of the same category should make the same damage, no matter if they're mounted on a tank or held by a squad member.
- Ordering new units should be free from the actual buildings, somewhat closer to the idea of Ground Control. That way all Eldar will warp in through warp gates, Space Marines teleported or dropped down in drop pods, Orks flewn in and Chaos summoned.
- The accuracy for all heroes, squads and vehicles has to be tweaked to those of WH40k.
- Most reinforcement and weapon cost has not yet been altered.

This is why I could use complete lists for anything that still has the wrong cost. I could also use lists of stats for all Chaos, Space marine and Ork units and weapons, since Army Builder is kind of limited in some ways. I have allready got a decent knowledge of the Eldar in WH40k, but all the other races, I could use some help with.
Please notice that I've intentionally increased the cost of the leaders accordingly, to enable the purchase of the spells they have ingame, as well as some force fields and armour upgrads, so that they won't go down in no time.

WARNING!
This version of the mod is totally and utterly imbalanced!
In fact it probably is as imbalanced as it could get, since only some values has been altered to resemble WH40k, but some other values and most of the weapon damages are still unaltered. That results in a dangerous cocktail of Dawn of War damage ratio mixed with some elements from the world of WH40k, and the collision is very evident and horrifying.
This is why I would say that the mod really isn't playable yet. At least until all weapons get a remake. The mod could still be used for debugging purposes and some sheer amusement though
Feel free to discuss the mod at this forum

[Aralez]

This may sound a bit strange, but is the TT game balanced?
As i never played it i have to completely rely on what you tell me

[Olgerth Istaarn]

Stat-wise, TT game is very much balanced.

Dice rolls introduce the random element.

[Aralez]

Thx for the answer. But i have another one: How is CC handled in the TT ? Especially the Ork Sluggas are of interest to me. Do they get killed as quick as in DoW ? Sry for my newbie questions...

[Hands_of_Fate]

The CC in W40K is depending on the attributes, the main being: Initiative, Weapon Skill, Attacks and Strength (together with Toughness and Armour Save, as usual), and is handled on a squad level. Basically, without going into too much detail, one rolls a number of dice equal to the total number of Attacks, in his troops Initiative order. A number of successful hits is determined by comparing the respective Weapon Skills of opponents: usually a strike is made on a roll of 4+ (where your troops have slightly lower or equal WS in relation to the opponent's), or a 3+ (a higher WS than the enemy). Then there is a standard roll to wound, roll to save procedure, as with a ranged attack. Whoever has inflicted more wounds on the enemy wins the CC round and the loser takes a morale roll to see if he has nerves enough to stay in the melee (and get chopped to bits more in the next CC phase), or flees.

Well, that's the basics of it all really. There is a great number of factors including charging, Initiative bonuses, weapons, numbers and special abilities that might influence the outcome of an asssault, but there is no point discussing them here. Close combat offers many advantages, the most important I find being protected from enemy fire, as units locked in CC cannot be shot at, and is a way of rolling truly outrageous number of attack dice if you play an assault oriented army.

But let's go back to the Slugga Boyz and their chances of survival against, say, Space Marines Tactical Squad and Guardians. They stand as follows:

Slugga Boy: WS*4 S3 T4 I2 A2(3)** Sv6+
Space Marine: WS4 S4 T4 I4 A1 Sv3+
Guardian: WS3 S3 T3 I4 A1 Sv5+

*The stats are: Weapon Skill, Strength, Toughness, Initiative, Attacks and Save
**Additinal attack is yealded by the use of two CC weapons: a slugga and a choppa.

Barring all additional factors (of which there are plenty in favour of Orks, like Initiative bonus on charge, max Save being 4+ against choppas, ect) Boyz do seem to overwhelm both the Marines and Guardians with the sheer numer of attacks. In a ten on ten scenario, we have (in initiative order, assuming that all squad members are present to attack):

- vs. Emperor's Finest:
Space Marines: 10 attack rolls hitting on 4+, wounding on 3+ and being saved on 6+.
Slugga Boys: 30(!) attack rolls hitting on 4+, wounding on 5+ and being saved on 4+.

- vs. Guardians:
Guardians: 10 attack rolls hitting on 4+, wounding on 5+ and being saved on 6+.
Slugga Boys: 30 attack rolls hitting on 3+, wounding on 3+ and being saved on 5+.

The rest is just pure luck, but influenced by army selection and tactics.
I hope that it helped a bit.

[Aralez]

Wow, thx for the detailed answer! It seems CC in w40k is not easily to reproduce in DoW, seeing all the attributes that come to effect. No ranged damage in CC you say, i wonder how that would work in DoW...
I understand now that relic had to make some "unfluffy" changes, otherwise this might have bveen unplayable.
Just imagine a Nob boss squad barly wounded by ranged fire as they approach your SM troop and then wreak havoc on them in CC, where they are invulnerable to ranged fire!
The only possibility would have been to drastically increase ranged weapons damage, a balancing nightmare!

(30 attacks vs 10 attacks, sigh, this makes me dream )

[Hands_of_Fate]

No prob.

To reproduce CC the W40K way in DoW is almost impossible. There's just no way units would stop shooting at things in melee and pick other targets as far as I know. Thus the main difference between assault and a shootout is lost. I don't know a thing about AI scripting, it might be doable in that department if anywhere (I would be very interested in that). One may decrease the damage from shooting weapons when in CC but that's pretty much it. Somewhat a pity.

[Gromij]

actually, as far as i know hands of fate, DoW was originally like that. Units in melee could not be shot at. But people complained, so relic changed to the system it is now.

I cant find a way to change it back to being unable to shoot at units in melee, so for the moment ive made units in melee take 0 damage from ranged weapons. Its definitely not a solution, because players may waste a lot of damage which could be dealt to other enemy forces, on melee forces they cant damage, but for now its what im doing.

Sorry for the lack of updates, i didnt download the new tools for a while after their release.

[Hands_of_Fate]

Well, that just wouldn't look good in an RTS game. That and people don't generally give it a damn if they shoot friendly models, but complain a lot if they die ("I just thought that it looks funny...").
Is there a way to implement same damage for friend and foe hacking at each other from shooting attacks? Together with 50% dam reduction that would make friendly fire what it should be.

Gromij, I hope that you don't mind people using your ideas, because I did use your infantry armour system for some dirty notepad coding expanding your mod to include Eldar for 1.2 version. It just looked so... tasty... I couln't rezist! I am weak, I know... But it was looking so neat... Please don't lynch me.

I'm now doing all myself using 1.1 ModTools (and some trusty Notebook backup), but after I noticed errors in vehicle/building armour penetration values (I used my own math to calculate them - and it took ages with all those special rules) I have to rewrite them again. [insert crying suicidal smiley banging it's head on the wall here] It just takes so much time... I'd be more than happy to share what I did with ayone when it's done. If it's done at all...

[WHY? God, why? *BANG* Ow. *BASH* Ow...]

[Gromij]

WHAT!?

nah just kidding, thats fine

Ive actually pretty much finished orks and eldar, and a friend was working on chaos although I havent spoken to him since the release of the new tools.

So I should have SM, Ork and eldar ready soon, and chaos probably later once I talk to this guy

[Gromij]

Well now Ive sorted out my problems with the new editor, coding for the mod has started again.

Ive decided to start from scratch as converting it to 1.3 plus its already fairly messy state makes it a disaster to look at.

Im almost done with space marine weapons, progress is fast, however I have been revising my assault cannon rending calculations. Im no great mathematician, and though I am confident I have finally got it right, perhaps someone here could review my calculations?

Assault Cannon:
Accuracy = 0.556
Reasoning: With BS4 there is a 4/6 chance of hitting. However when you do hit, there is a 1/6 chance of not wounding, which causes 0 damage. I am counting these as misses. So I multiply 4/6 by 5/6 to give the probability of hitting and not rolling a 1. This is 0.556.

Armour Piercing:

The chance of rolling a 1 to wound is taken into consideration in the accuracy.
So chances of rolling a 6 to wound are therefore 1 in 5, which is 0.2. So there is a 0.2 chance of ignoring the armour save (rending ignores armour saves when you roll a 6 to wound).
Shots which roll a 6 must be taken out of the probability to pass the armour save when calculated for shots which didnt roll a 6.
So chance to wound without rolling a 6 becomes 4/5 which is 0.8.
0.8 x 0.333 (using 3+ armour save) = 0.266. 0.266 + 0.2 (chance of a 6 to wound) = 0.466.
This is the probability of passing a 3+ armour save, or infantry_heavy_med.

Versus invulnerable saves however, the 0.2 chance of a 6 still has to pass an invulnerable save.
eg Heavy_med_inv (3+/5+)
0.8 x 0.333 = 0.266
+ 0.2 x 0.6666 = 0.399

Sound good? Ive got the damage at 60, as the weapon is strength 6. All units have hp which is equivalent to their toughness x their wounds x 10.

Following this method, I calculated the penetration values against all armour saves below (regular ap4 values to the right)

AC vs Infantry_None = 100 (100)
AC vs Infantry_None_Inv = 66.666 (66.666)
AC vs Infantry_None_Inv_high = 50 (50)
AC vs Infantry_Low = 100 (100)
AC vs Infantry_Medium = 100 (100)
AC vs Infantry_High = 100 (100)
AC vs Infantry_Heavy_Medium = 46.666 (33.333)
AC vs Infantry_Heavy_Medium_Inv = 39.999 (33.333)
AC vs Infantry_Heavy_Medium_Inv_high= 36.666 (33.333)
AC vs Infantry_Heavy_High = 33.333 (16.666)
AC vs Infantry_Heavy_High_Inv = 26.666 (16.666)
AC vs Infantry_Heavy_High_Inv_high = 23.333 (16.666)

EDIT:

big change in all calculations. The possibility of rolling a 1 to wound has been removed from accuracy calculations, so all accuracy now relies on only ballistic skill.

All weapons now do 5 times their strength in damage, while all hp is 10 times the toughness.

Therefore the assault cannon calculations must be redone as there is now a 1/6 chance of rending.

1/6 of ignoring armour save
4/6 of wounding normally
4/6 x 2/6 = 0.222
0.222 + 0.1667 = 0.388

Edit 2: Ahhh wrong again
As the strength vs toughness takes into account 1's, I have to treat 5/6 as wounding and 1/6 as rending.

therefore it is actually
5/6 x 2/6 = 0.2777
0.2777 + 0.1667 = 0.4444

And this brings it MUCH closer to table top values for how many shots it takes to kill a marine. Before it was over a shot off, now the difference is much less.

Tabletop: (1 x 0.667 x 0.667 x 0.333) + (1 x 0.667 x 0.1667) = 0.259.
1/0.259 = 3.856 shots to kill a marine
DoW Mod: 1 x 0.667 x 30 x 0.4444 = 8.8924
40/8.8924 = 4.49 shots to kill a marine.

Im still a fair bit off, but all other weapons have become much closer to table top values with barely 0.1 of a shot difference for most. The rending makes this one more complicated, but the new calculations are much more accurate than previous, where it would require 5.5 or at one stage much less.

[Jinxter78]

Impressive work, keep it up!

[Gromij]

Whew! An hour or so later and I've finished calculating vehicle penetration values.

Here is the math for anyone interested (All vehicles have 100hp)

Notice I have grouped 10/11, 12/13, and 14 into three armour types. This is because

a) It's far less work.
b) Most vehicles have varying armour on different sides.

10/11 is structure_low, 12/13 is med, 14 is high.

Here is how to make sense of the probable jargon appearance of the math below.

Strength 4 vs Vehicles
-----------------------
Table top: Requires 36 shots to destroy 10/11
1 x 0.667 x 0.0833 x 0.5 = 0.0277
1/0.0277 =36

1 x 0.667 represents the chance of hitting with ballistic skill 4

x 0.0833. This part is more complex.
Average 10/11 is 10.5.
10.5 - 4 = 6.5. This is what is needed to make up the difference
7 - 6.5 = 0.5 This gives you how many values out of 6 will get you the necessary difference (looks wrong I know, but it takes long to explain)
0.5/6 = The percentage chance of penetrating, = 0.0833

x 0.5. This is because once you have penetrated a vehicle there is a 1/2 chance of destroying it. I have counted glancing hits as penetrating to make up for the fact that you cant get effects such as "immobilised" or "armament destroyed" in dawn of war.

0.0277 = The final chance of killing tank with one shot.
1/0.0277 = How many shots needed to kill tank (according to probability)

Therefore penetration in DoW is 20.833
1 x 0.667 x 20 x Z = (100 / 36)
13.333Z = 2.77
Z = 0.20833

1 x 0.667 is the chance of hitting. x 20 is the damage done by the weapon. Z is the penetration value I am trying to find.
100/36 gives me how much damage I need to do on average per shot.
From there its algebra.

Strength 4 vs Vehicles
-----------------------
Table top: Requires 36 shots to destroy 10/11
1 x 0.667 x 0.0833 x 0.5 = 0.0277
1/0.0277 =36

Therefore penetration in DoW is 20.833
1 x 0.667 x 20 x Z = (100 / 36)
13.333Z = 2.77
Z = 0.20833
-----------------------
Tabletop: Cant penetrate 12/13
Therefore penetration in DoW is 0
-----------------------
Table top: Cant penetrate 14
Therefore penetration in DoW is 0
-----------------------
///////////////////////
Strength 5 vs Vehicles
-----------------------
Table top: Requires 12 shots to destroy 10/11
1 x 0.667 x 0.25 x 0.5 = 0.0833
1/0.0833 = 12

Therefore penetration in DoW is 50
1 x 0.667 x 25 x Z = (100 / 12)
16.667Z = 8.333
Z = 0.50
-----------------------
Tabletop: Cant penetrate 12/13
Therefore penetration in DoW is 0
-----------------------
Table top: Cant penetrate 14
Therefore penetration in DoW is 0
-----------------------
///////////////////////
Strength 6 vs Vehicles
-----------------------
Table top: Requires 7.199 shots to destroy 10/11
1 x 0.667 x 0.4167 x 0.5 = 0.1389
1/0.1389 = 7.199

Therefore penetration in DoW is 69.444
1 x 0.667 x 30 x Z = (100 / 7.199)
20Z = 13.888
Z = 0.69444
-----------------------
Table top: Requires 36 shots to destroy 12/13
1 x 0.667 x 0.08333 x 0.5 = 0.0277
1/0.0277 = 36

Therefore penetration in DoW is 13.888
1 x 0.667 x 30 x Z = (100 / 36)
20Z = 2.777
Z = 0.13888
-----------------------
Table top: Cant penetrate 14
Therefore penetration in DoW is 0
-----------------------
///////////////////////
Strength 7 vs Vehicles
-----------------------
Table top: Requires 5.14 shots to destroy 10/11
1 x 0.667 x 0.5833 x 0.5 = 0.19444
1/0.19444 = 5.14

Therefore penetration in DoW is 83.333
1 x 0.667 x 35 x Z = (100 / 5.14)
23.333Z = 19.444
Z = 0.83333
-----------------------
Table top: Requires 12 shots to destroy 12/13
1 x 0.667 x 0.25 x 0.5 = 0.0833
1/0.0833 = 12

Therefore penetration in DoW is 35.714
1 x 0.667 x 35 x Z = (100 / 12)
23.333Z = 8.333
Z = 0.35714
-----------------------
Table top: Cant penetrate 14
Therefore penetration in DoW is 0
-----------------------
///////////////////////
Strength 8 vs Vehicles
-----------------------
Tabletop: Requires 4 shots to destroy 10/11
1 x 0.667 x 0.75 x 0.5 = 0.25
1/0.25 = 4

Therefore penetration in DoW is 93.479
1 x 0.667 x 40 x Z = (100 / 4)
26.668z = 25
z = 0.93749
-----------------------
Table top: Requires 7.19 shots to destroy 12/13.
1 x 0.667 x 0.4167 x 0.5 = 0.1389
1/0.1389 = 7.1999999999999999999999999999964

Therefore penetration in DoW is 52.083
1 x 0.667 x 40 x Z = (100 / 7.1964)
26.668Z = 13.89
z = 0.52083
-----------------------
Table top: Requires 17.9991 shots to destroy 14.
1 x 0.667 x 0.1667 x 0.5 = 0.0558
1/0.0558 = 17.9991

Therefore penetration in DoW is 20.833
1 x 0.667 x 40 x Z = (100 / 17.9991)
26.668z = 5.558
z = 0.208333
-----------------------
///////////////////////
Strength 9 vs Vehicles
-----------------------
Table top: Requires 3.27 shots to destroy 10/11
1 x 0.667 x 0.9167 x 0.5 = 0.30555
1/0.30555 = 3.27

Therefore penetration in DoW is 101.851
1 x 0.667 x 45 x Z = (100 / 3.27)
30z = 30.555
z = 1.01851
-----------------------
Table top: Requires 5.14 shots to destroy 12/13.
1 x 0.667 x 0.5833 x 0.5 = 0.1944
1/0.1944 = 5.14

Therefore penetration in DoW is 64.814
1 x 0.667 x 45 x Z = (100 / 5.14)
30Z = 19.444
z = 0.64814
-----------------------
Table top: Requires 9 shots to destroy 14.
1 x 0.667 x 0.333 x 0.5 = 0.111
1/0.111 = 9

Therefore penetration in DoW is 37.037
1 x 0.667 x 45 x Z = (100 / 9)
30z = 11.111
z = 0.37037
-----------------------
///////////////////////
Strength 10 vs Vehicles
-----------------------
Table top: Requires 2.769 shots to destroy 10/11
1 x 0.667 x 1.0833 x 0.5 = 0.36111
1/0.36111 = 2.769

Therefore penetration in DoW is 108.333
1 x 0.667 x 50 x Z = (100 / 2.769)
33.333Z = 36.111
Z = 1.08333
-----------------------
Table top: Requires 4 shots to destroy 12/13
1 x 0.667 x 0.75 x 0.5 = 0.25
1/0.25 = 4

Therefore penetration in DoW is 75
1 x 0.667 x 50 x Z = (100 / 4)
33.333Z = 25
Z = 0.75
-----------------------
Table top: Requires 6 shots to destroy 14
1 x 0.667 x 0.5 x 0.5 = 0.1667
1/0.1667 = 6

Therefore penetration in DoW is 50
1 x 0.667 x 50 x Z = (100 / 6)
33.333Z = 16.667
Z = 0.5
-----------------------
///////////////////////
Strength vs Armour
4 vs 10/11  = 20.833
5 vs 10/11  = 50
6 vs 10/11  = 69.444
6 vs 12/13  = 13.888
7 vs 10/11  = 83.333
7 vs 12/13  = 35.714
8 vs 10/11  = 93.479
8 vs 12/13  = 52.083
8 vs 14     = 20.333
9 vs 10/11  = 101.851
9 vs 12/13  = 64.814
9 vs 14     = 37.037
10 vs 10/11 = 108.333
10 vs 12/13 = 75
10 vs 14    = 50

[ThirdDanScoota]

Some very nice work indeed.. And good to see that you've been alive all this time afterall.

Very much looking forward to this mod, but.. Anything luck based will see me getting "pwned" hardcore, i assure you.

Keep up the good work!

EDIT: OH! And by the way, please do not post Warhammer rules as seen in the above posts - it is not allowed.

[Gromij]

Ahhh you're right, I'll try to be more careful in future posts.

Thanks for the enthusiasm.

[ThirdDanScoota]

Well, i think you're allowed to vaguely refer to them, just not exact rules - Games Workshop does not like it.

I wish you luck and good progress.

[Leonix]

:howdy: Wow, this Mod is looking great I can't wait to get a taste, let alone the whole thing

Keep up all the good work and keep us posted :mrpantha:

[Schepp himself]

I second that, i would love to see a "TT-version" of Dawn of War. Sure it'S hard to balance out but you seem to make good progress and have thought through your work -> bravo!

Greets
Schepp himself

[monk_farmer]

Hey,

I just registered, and its pretty cool to see everyone getting so excited about Morgans mod, I haven't had a chance to have a turn yet, but I will!

Cya