Challenge: Fix the orks.

[Orkus_Grokus]

Maybe we should see the ork problem from another perspective. Orks have mainly problems with Eldar and Chaos now.

Eldar because of the hated Warpspiders....which are way too effective versus light infantry in the hands of an experienced player. And since most of the ork army consists of light infantry Orks wont a chance (and also makes game versus Eldar truly boring and unfunny as Ork)...the answer in 1.2 was the Trak but thats taken out now, nothing left to do.

Chaos with the new defiler...with his fixed autocannon he chewes through your units...especially massed (probably a problem in 3v3 or 4v4 since there usually larger armys get built beofre the first fights)

Why dont we fix these 2 units to normal combat strength before we change anything on orks and see how they fare then ?

Maybe make WS do less damage and make them a little cheaper for that

And give the autocannon less damage

this changes should help orks a lot

[psychodil]

I think some people are suggesting the problem is worse than it is, and are suggesting buffing to above 1.2 levels to compensate. That wouldnt help.

What relic seem to have done, is nerf all of the slightly OP aspects of orks, without addressing the serious weaknesses that are in their infantry. Perhaps they balanced each race individually, but never tested them against each other?

Anyway, some nerfs were necessary to a certain extent, and some have been overnerfed. I would like to see a compromise between 1.2 ork and 1.3 ork.

Something like this:

1. Mek shop at 46 pop, with trukks.
2. Trakks at 56 pop.
3. Mek shop not required for orky fort (fast tech to nobs and warboss possible)
4. Megablaster at 50-75% of what it was in 1.2, not 10%
5. Ork LP2 range at 30, small HP buff.
6. Killa kan at tier 2, but with 76 waagh.

Most importantly though is running melee. I have discussed this with [vertigo], and I suggested that hitting moving targets would result in something like a 60% damage reduction. This would make it worthwhile getting into melee, but still worthwhile dancing, hopefully without making jump troops overpowered. You could still avoid damage by retreating BEFORE the melee units reached you.

[Scribble]

Vertigo and Nosekiller's opinions really should be headed on these matters, both are impartial, level headed and have an exellent nose for balance.

And I would lend my limited support their proposition/theorum.

I believe that Dib's thread contains the esstianal problems with orcs. Which Vertigo neatly sumerised as limited potential strategies.

The simple solutions. Trukks , trukks and mekshop back one banner each.

Remove the pop cost for rokkits.

Increase the MEgablastas bamage to 75% of pre-patch values.

Restore the LP2's range.

However I would prefer something more radical, that gave more emphesis to the ordinary ork boyz.

-Stikkbombz should have a wide Area OF Effect and 'move stun' for around 4 seconds to reduce orkz vunerablility to dancing.

Burnas should do 75% of rokkits DPS in close combat giving a new strategy to defeating vehicles.

Big Shootas power cost should be slashed to 15.

Slugga Heavy Weapon accuracy/damage should be significantly reduced.

Tankbustas mellee damage vs vehicles should be significantly increased to make them a very cost viable counter to enemy vehicles.

Nob leader cost should be increased.

[Chaz]

It's true that CC is basically useless in the game since you'll be gunned down with ease. Orks entire purpose is CC and with things they way they are, it's not much help. The fact that a player previously stated he had to abandon melee with the melee race to make them useful should be a clear enough sign.

I personally feel that once a unit gets locked into CC it should be forced to stay there until morale is broken and only then be allowed to flee. Other squads would still be allowed to fire at the opposing forces, with perhaps a decrease in damage; afterall they are trying to pick off enemies without hitting allies. This would increase the effectiveness of CC, and while you could still attempt to dance your troops to avoid initially getting locked in CC, the chance of success would be far less likely.

[DukeRustfield]

Nice way of putting it, Chaz. Yeah, I said in another thread that if Orks had some kind of snare, most of our concerns would be over. But my god Stormboyz would own and other races would complain to hell. SM super morale would be a detriment in your scenario.

But it would still leave Orks with one and only one type of combat. Everyone would just use jump troops and artillery to stay the hell away from us. Maybe even mass mine fields.

[Vertigo]

Problem is, this was suggested a LOT in Beta. Relic shot it down, definitively. In their words, "never take control from the player." So it's a non-starter.

Hey, I love the Kohan series. Losing control in that context is fine by me. I support the idea. But Relic's playtesters disagree with me.

[Stefan]

There already is a decrease in damage from ranged attacks when units enter melee combat.

[Dibujante]

However, when units are busily chasing other units and never entering in melee combat, not only are they doing 0 damage, but they're recieving full damage. It just sucks. Melee is not as effective as it ought to be. If melee could actually inflict damage on an observant player, then it would be okay that Ork units were so frail.
Regards,
Dibujante

[mlai]

So current suggestions to fix CC in DoW:

1. Perma-lock into CC -> Relic devs oppose this.

2. Slight FC-like stun ability for CC units -> Need to rebalance many things for this option, for example this means Chaos Lord and SC are actually bad CC units?

3. Running melee -> Sounds great but this would require new animations for ALL units in DoW. I can only imagine the patch size...

[Chaz]

Not perma-lock, temp lock. Being completely stuck in CC until one squad dies would be a bad idea, I just want them to be forced to stay in CC until their morale breaks. After that point they are free to flee. However, Relic Devs don't like this idea much, so it's moot unless someone has a strong desire to do some major modding.

[Alpha_1]

What happened to using 1-2 small squads of big shoota shootas to lay the smack on running (dancing) units?

Did all the ork players suddenly forget what big shootas were for?

[mlai]

What about the "slight FC stun for CC units"? I'd imagine it would be easy to mod in as well... just give every CC unit the FC ability, with appropriate stun time nerfs so that it only works if the target is truly mobbed by multiple CC units.

I threw this idea up, but no one has yet shot it down. Does that mean it'd be do-able?

As soon as I get the MOD TOOLS(!!!!!!!!!), I'll try it.

(Y'all can't understand how painful it is for me not to mod... I've been tinkering with my DoW every single day, before 1.3...)

Add: Sure we'll use them. Lower their cost.

[DukeRustfield]

Did all the ork players suddenly forget what big shootas were for?

I think they remembered they cost 40/30 and are being carried by units in light armor with 175 health. I can't tell you how many times I tried buying upgrades and my Orks died before they got them (happens with NL a lot). Orks are a disposable army. You don't spend massive resources on disposable armies to kill one more marine. It's not in any way efficient.

[Alpha_1]

So let me get this straight, you do not have 1-2 squads behind all your melee squads that are for ranged damage on troops in melee?

You do not maximize the damage you put out in the most efficient manners possible?

I have no doubt WHY you lose so much with 1.3 orks then.

[Burns]

I'd like to throw another thingy in this thread that concerns the orks. What I want to say is about Grechin and Waargh towers. A good way to really get screwed is to lose all grechin squads and then not be able to replace them because a few waargh towers got blasted. It was a pain to see.

[Rapier]

So let me get this straight, you do not have 1-2 squads behind all your melee squads that are for ranged damage on troops in melee?

You do not maximize the damage you put out in the most efficient manners possible?

I have no doubt WHY you lose so much with 1.3 orks then.

You do that and the enemy doesn't instantly target the obvious largest threat? +.= I could see that happening in a 3v3, or a 4v4 (because it's harder to prioritise and target), but in a 1v1? I think your opponent would target the priorities first.

[DukeRustfield]

So let me get this straight, you do not have 1-2 squads behind all your melee squads that are for ranged damage on troops in melee?

Yeah, that works great against the computer. I'm always amused when players try it on me. Like I can't see them or something. (This was in 1.2 with Traks...)

[Dibujante]

The "just buy big shootas" mantra is fallacious. Big shootas take too long to acquire, before that the enemy often has you by the throat.
On top of that, they don't really damage marines all that much. Marines don't do 0 damage while they're dancing. They're thrashing your troops and your troops are responding with a few scattered and pitiful big shootas.
Orks are about melee. Melee must be fixed. No "solutions" that involve not fixing melee will satisfy me.
Regards,
Dibujante

[Penitent]

I agree with what DukeRustfield and vertigo have been saying, although my experience using/against sluggas is that they aren't quite as useless as this thread describes.

[n0z3k1ll3r]

3. Mek shop not required for orky fort (fast tech to nobs and warboss possible)

This is a very clever idea actually. I think it would be overpowered, but something similar might be doable. One thing I've noticed from my ork games is that orks get really badly hit when their opponents second hero comes out (even if its not the sorceror), as they simply don't have a counter until the Warboss comes out. Possibly putting the warboss as pre Orky Fort, but upping the pop requirement by a banner might help. I played a game the other day where my opponents librarian just kept throwing my massive army around like playthings while his FC kept my BM tied up. I seriously can't think of anything I could have done that wouldn't have involved an absurd amount of ranged fire from Trukks or BS.

I've also been considering a complete rework of the Ork Charge bonuses, so they don't get screwed over by dancing. Essentially, it would allow dancing still but greatly lessen its usefulness.

[Fraggis]

1) Either bring 35 range back or give 2250 hp to the LP. Preferably the 1st one, since it adds diversity and make sure you can't just gun it down with HBs w/o risking a man.
2) Rokkits to 31 pop
3) Mek Shop to 31 pop, Trukk to 46 and Trakks to 56.
4) Megablasta's dmg set to 75% of its 1.2 dmg, with the new stances it won't be such a problem.
5) Heavy weapons dmg depending on owner: superior Big Shoota damage on Shoota Boyz and superior Rokkits dmg on Tankbustaz (perhaps make them cost effective counters to vehicle ? ...)
----
1) Defiler's reaper autocannon nerfed (not overnerfed, I said nerfed)
2) WS damage reduced (not into oblivion, just reduced)
3) Sorceror's time cost increased as he gets more spells (just like the BM).

Pure gold cpt napalm, thats all that needs to be done, you're change list gets my vote.

[n0z3k1ll3r]

1) Either bring 35 range back or give 2250 hp to the LP. Preferably the 1st one, since it adds diversity and make sure you can't just gun it down with HBs w/o risking a man.

Just so your aware I'm very much against the 35 LP range. It essentially meant that the ork LP2 was not only cheaper than an SM/Chaos one, but even harder to kill as it outranged anything in Tier 1. The only thing that could really kill it effectively was drawing its fire with your commander, and then the ork player generally just retargeted on your troops anyway, or popped his BM up. Give it more HP, don't put that horrible range back.

[Vertigo]

The "just buy big shootas" mantra is fallacious. Big shootas take too long to acquire, before that the enemy often has you by the throat.
On top of that, they don't really damage marines all that much. Marines don't do 0 damage while they're dancing. They're thrashing your troops and your troops are responding with a few scattered and pitiful big shootas.
Orks are about melee. Melee must be fixed. No "solutions" that involve not fixing melee will satisfy me.

Spot on, I'd say. I really don't think BSes would work, based on prior patches. Back in the day, BSes used to be quite popular. You could even take down WSes with them! People were REALLY attached to them. Relic then bumped the price to what it is now, and people couldn't make them work en masse anymore. Oh, they tried, but it just wasn't that efficient overall. If you had just a few, you could sneak in damage, but if you had a lot, the opponent would focus on them and they just DIED.

So BSes fell into this nether realm where you can use a few, but not a lot. As a result, the impact BSes can have is limited.

In my experience, it works like this:

You just can't mass enough BS to allow you to stand in a ranged fight with med armor. That means a split between CC and ranged squads. Too many ranged squads mean means you end up not being able to lock all enemy squads into CC. So you fall back to the standard 4 man squads in order to have enough squads to split between ranged and CC. Problem is, that means you can't put 3 BSes in a squad, because 3 BSes out of 4 Orks is a focus magnet, and you WILL lose them first. If they don't get focused immediately, they'll get jumped by ASM, or Doom/Chained, or something. That's a LOT of money gone.

So the big problems with BSes in 1.3 are:
1) Can't be massed without being extremely exposed to focusing
2) Play havok with your Mob bonus, as they reduce squad sizes

For a CC-oriented race that's supposed to rely on large squads, BS is an awkward fit. You can use them in moderation, but it's tough to get enough to turn the tide. At least, not vs. SM/CSM. They used to work better vs. Ork and Eldar.

[n0z3k1ll3r]

One thing I'd found helped there was just allowing Shootas to field more heavy weapons, say 5 a squad. So you can have big squads and still have a lot of fire support, plus it gives shootas a more distinctive role.

That said, BS need a power cost reduction too.

[DukeRustfield]

All our buildings are junk. WS and Assault marines with nades show that. They can take out 150 Req before anything in the game can stop them including a Squiggoth sitting right by it. The only thing that stopped them was the threat of Traks chewing them to pieces and making them lose even more Req than they took.

An interesting concept is no Mek for HQ. It takes 70 seconds to make a Nob Squad. If you started them right away, you'd have nothing on the battlefield for a while (well, you'd still have HQ sluggas). Of course when they came out you'd see a world of hurt if the enemy hadn't teched, but still. What would be OP though is having Warboss come out. "Sweet, we got Heavy Bolters. What the hell is that!?!"

But I'm liking the general...direction of these ideas because they are new strategies, which Ork is severely lacking. The more tactical paths that exist the better. Of course it's hard to balance it all.

[Vertigo]

One thing I'd found helped there was just allowing Shootas to field more heavy weapons, say 5 a squad. So you can have big squads and still have a lot of fire support, plus it gives shootas a more distinctive role.

That said, BS need a power cost reduction too.

I'd glady support that change. I miss the old days, when BSes actually were more than "meh."

[n0z3k1ll3r]

Also... anyone considered removing Orky Fort as a requirement for the Kan? It's probably been mentioned somewhere already, but I think it's quite a good idea. Maybe leave the monster Rokkit upgrade at post OF though.

[Boomstar]

Thats certainly an ineteresting idea.Maybe make it 70-80 pop requirement?The only real problem I could see this being is that there wouldn't be much incentive to tech to tier 3 (then again orks would still have more incentive then chaos).

Another thing is maybe shoota boyz should do a bit more ranged damage (say another 2 dps vs heavy)?

[Vertigo]

Also... anyone considered removing Orky Fort as a requirement for the Kan?

I have, I mentioned it in the Defiler thread. The reception was... tepid. So I kinda gave up on it.

[Boomstar]

I think we all need to agree on some thing though:The biggest problem orks are facing is that they can't kill moving targets good enough (I know it might seem a bit obvious but until we agree on some thing we won't get any where).

[n0z3k1ll3r]

Improving the charge bonus still strikes me as the best way of dealing with that.

[DukeRustfield]

Kan would be spiffy, but despite it's junk speed if it came out early nothing would stop it. It could walk through LP's and other buildings. Imagine Railway with a Kan walking down on each side. Though, theoretically, that's what a Defiler is, even without the AC.

[n0z3k1ll3r]

60 pop isn't really that early. 46 pop is roughly equivelant to other races Tier 2, so its now coming out same time as the dread really, and its about as good.

[Cap. Napalm]

I don't see why you want to make those weird changes, it isn't needed at all. We need to work on simple things to make sure it could make it into a quick fix.
And nose: I fail to see how 35 range is too much ? Our LP2 do LESS damage and has 1000 hp less (10 req cheaper out of 125/75 woohoo !) AND we don't have a ranged army to defend it, so we have to rush out to defend. So we CAN'T afford HBs outranging LP2s, it would simply make the game feasy for the SMs.
Also you can't retarget LP, so as you said you simply have to come with the commander first and the LP dies in second.

[CorsairX]

i think range35 on lp2 is a good idea
when orks attack a marine lp2 they all start fiering and orks are moved down

orks need to get to CC to defend 35 range makes the defense easier

as for the can i agree BUT remember that by the time we have 80 ork pop, the enemy will be jumping with assult marines/ws etc and bombing our fragile banners :/
it would be nice if there would be a upgreade in pillogunz
like +50% hp to banners and maybe +10dmg

[psychodil]

Range 35 was definately too much. Made it impossible to assault the ork base on VoK, and they even shot other listening posys in biffys peril. Range 30 would be fine with a HP buff.

[n0z3k1ll3r]

And nose: I fail to see how 35 range is too much ? Our LP2 do LESS damage and has 1000 hp less (10 req cheaper out of 125/75 woohoo !) AND we don't have a ranged army to defend it, so we have to rush out to defend. So we CAN'T afford HBs outranging LP2s, it would simply make the game feasy for the SMs.
Also you can't retarget LP, so as you said you simply have to come with the commander first and the LP dies in second.

One big shoota, count it ONE, and the Marine LP dies due to being outranged. Is it fair that SM have to either lose a fair whack of HP on the commander that they NEED to stop the BM, or lose a ton of troops that cost far more than the LP ever did? If orks get a 35 range LP everyone needs one, otherwise orks will just sit behind their LP wall and tech like they did in the old days. I already said increase the Ork LPs hp, thats all I'm going to grant you.

[groundbeef]

If orks are to be mass infantry, i can certainly live with that. Forget the trakks. How about access to both rokkit boys and tankbustas a banner earlier. Give orks diversity in strategy by giving them access to their bread and butter infantry, without having to "tech" for it. The cost of the units alone, especially TBs, are sufficient to keep them from being abused. Sluggas alone suck. We all know that. Orks only work when you get all unit types working in unison. Beat the opponent by micro you say? Fine. Give me the units to micro with. Not just slugga attack move and watch them get chewed up on the approach helplessly. Let me get my rokkit boys in the fight when they could actually still make a difference (nobs stay where they are obviously). With the tankbustas, my suggestion is to restrict rokkits only to TBs, then remove the pop requirement completely. This makes TBs more valuable since only they can carry the rokkits, and as mentioned before the cost of TBs will limit the early game rokkit spam to a minimum. But it does open the window for a small squad rokkit TB harass... doesnt that sound nice. Or how about an actually viable rokkit boys rush for map control. They cant kill any buildings (or most any units for that matter) without nobs, but they sure are pesky at the decapping. Most importantly, these strats need not be uber, just good enough so that orks still can say they have an element of surprise to them. Just the threat that it wont always be a slugga rush is enough to make that very same slugga rush that much more dangerous.

Sidenote: imo kustom blasta needs to be buffed not so much to make the tech a viable strat (which would be nice though), but just to make the upgrade even worthwhile. Right now it is a broken tech in terms of cost effectiveness.

Side sidenote: Great thread idea mods.

[Crunk]

GroundBeef,
I like ur style. If the Orks are to be the Infantry race so be it. Give them back the early rockets, or make the Tankbustas come earlier. What about decreasing the cost of Big shootas, so that way the effect of losing the fragile Ork holding it is not as great.

Stormboyz... they are the fastest and the cheapest. Lets make them the best in Melee. How about raise their CC damage a bit?

[apettican]

Seriously, I think the way to fix orks was actually fairly easy.

My proposed change would be based off 1.2 orks rather than 1.3, as it requires less fixing.

My simple change would have been to increase mek cost by 20/15(ish) and to move the rest of the ork tech tree back by 1 waaagh banner.

In order to make orks truely balanced, we would also require a hefty nerf for WS too. I would start with a 25% dmg nerf, and make incremental changes from that point on if required.

What is for sure, is that this needs fixing SOON. If it isn't done soon, Relic better hope that people's pets wander down to the store to pick up WA, because all their player base will be gone.

[CorsairX]

apettican
the only reason why orks didnt whine about patch 1.2 were traks wich gave them the ability to win

if an ork player won by infrantry he was either playing a noob or the opponent tried to prepare against wartaks and not massed infrantry

the problem is orks had to few tactics becouse nothing else worked besides traks,nobz

sluggas,shootas survive in very early tier 1 with BM support
later they are usless, than the track comes in and lets the ork win or survive to nobz wich can win the game

this is how it looked in 1.2.

[Cap. Napalm]

One big shoota, count it ONE, and the Marine LP dies due to being outranged. Is it fair that SM have to either lose a fair whack of HP on the commander that they NEED to stop the BM, or lose a ton of troops that cost far more than the LP ever did?

This isn't a real situation.
1) The Big Shoota will take eons to get the 2250 hp LP2 down
2) The Big Shoota costs 75/30 and has 140 hp
3) If you have simply TWO marines (100 req to satisfy your numbers hunger) defending the LP the BS will go down.
The problem is that ork have too little ranged capacities to defend their LP. You have to run to CC the enemy. So WE can't afford to have our LP outranged because WE can't just make 2 steps and start shooting at the enemy to make him retreat. Get it ?
and 4) The SM LP2 has 1000 more hp.

[Spike]

CorsairX"sluggas,shootas survive in very early tier 1 with BM support
later they are usless, than the track comes in and lets the ork win or survive to nobz which can win the game"

That is sooooo right, we had only that to play with. There were no finishing vehicles.

[mlai]

@ Nozekiller: I respected a lot of your viewpoints, until you said "No Orky LP2 range 35." In this one you clearly show that you're only thinking stats not metagame. Without Trakks, Orks have no true range (BS is B.S.). So their CC needs cover/suppression fire, especially when protecting base. 35 LP2 is the only thing that does that. I don't even want more LP2 hitpoints if I can have the 35 back. And Blastier Upgrades don't even affect LP2's, unless 1.3 changed that.

Back to fixing CC, which is the hardest to fix and the most ambitious. Currently the proposals I've heard:

1. Units stay locked in CC until morale breaks. -> Relic opposes.
2. Running melee -> Require tons of new anims.

I just got some new ideas I'd love opinions on if they're workable.

3. The Dungeons & Dragons "backstab": Infantry units on the move gets 5.000 CC-damage-received modifier, unless the enemy attacking in CC is morale broken. Walkers on the move gets 2.000 modifier. Tanks and heroes get no modifier.

4. This is in conjunction with #3. Infantry units disengaging from CC receive huge morale deduction, not enough to insta-break a SM squad but damn close. This does not apply to disengaging from walkers and units with broken morale. All Orks, all heroes, and most CC-oriented units are immune from this morale deduction.

[CorsairX]

or maybe the squads in cc would be locked for 5-10sek?
and what about that FC stun ? would it work

oh and i think i have an idea but i think it could OP the BM, make it telleporting have a faster cooldown

[mlai]

@ CorsairX:

Squads in CC locked for 5 - 10 seconds.
1. Takes control from player, which Relic 10 Commandments forbid.
2. Disadvantage to CC squads also, as they can't jump from squad to squad to tie-up with maximum efficiency.

Mini FC stun.
I gotta try this when Mod Tools come. Unlike my new ideas in #144, this is something I can prolly do myself (doesn't require new game mechanics).

[TheDeadlyShoe]

It would be pretty easy even. You'd just put the stun entries in the top level melee files.

[Rapier]

2. Disadvantage to CC squads also, as they can't jump from squad to squad to tie-up with maximum efficiency.

In case you didn't notice, it's no longe rpossible to do this, as soon as you change target, the origional target is no longer in melee. It doesn't chase you to stay in melee like it used too.

[MooFreaky]

Okay I have a couple opinions here.
I felt Orks tended to tech to Trakks in all games, as there was no other option. I hated this as it was always so awkward to counter as SM. If the opponent did it right...

So rather than reduce the effectiveness of trakks so much they should have been reduced somewhat but not as much as currently.
Give them the option for teching to Trakks, but give them other viable alternatives too.
While at the same time reducing the desire to always go trakks (let's face it going Trakks was a pretty damn good option - so it had to be nerfed in some degree...)

I think there should be some other options though. A few thoughts i have currently.
Make shoota boyz more effective. Do this by making them more powerful as more are in the squad. (simple example 1shoota boy does 1 dmg... but 5 shoota boys do 8 dmg... and 15 do 25 dmg) This sticks with the idea that the more boyz are around the more shots the Orks try to give off, and the stronger the Pshchic powers (for all those people familiar with TT fluff of orks that will make sense).

Also give them more options vs Vehicles. Make Tankbustas have Rokkits which are more powerful than standard rokkits or something.
Make burnas actually extremely effective vs vehciles... after all they are blow torches.
While at it you could make burnas a more powerful CC weapon. Morale killer at a range and a better (not excessive just better) weapon in CC.

A new unit. Bring in the buggy. in TT they were the same unit as Trakks...but in DoW make them different. Make them a viable anti tank unit. Cheap to produce but lightly armoured and easy to destroy. But capable of getting rid of the nasty enemy tanks.
Orks are all about LOTS of guns on shabby, poorly constructed vehicles.

I think the biggest problem with Orks is the same problem faced in the TT version of Orks. They are an extremely CC orientated army that has very little in terms of range, especially when it comes to killing vehicles.
These problems are very much like the problems my TT ork army has. It looks like ork in DoW may end up being the 'flavour army' that are played more for fun than for victory...

[Boomstar]

Does anyone know if the mob bonus damage applies to ranged damage?