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The Culexus Temple: Prison of the Sensei?

  1. #1
    In my day, we made our OWN war Robert Frazer's Avatar
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    The Culexus Temple: Prison of the Sensei?

    I have always been intrigued by the nature of the Culexus Assassains.

    The other Temples most certainly possess their 'idiosyncracies'. The sterile precision and distrubingly indefatigable patience of the Vindicare; the drug-fuelled psychotic bloodlust of the Eversor; the warping and shifting physical aberrations of the Callidus; and several other non-battlefield Temples that Games Workshop has yet to produce models or rules for - such as the Venenum Temple, whose speciality is poisoning (cf. the 3rd Edition Codex Assassins, page 12)... to look upon any one of them is to gaze upon Death manifest in an incardanine form. They exist soley to inflict upon us the most exquisite of the full panoply of gruesome demises that we fallen men are sufficiently unfortunate to be afflicted with. The leering skulls, the featureless synskin daubed in a hue as fell, dark and consuming as the abyss... what unspeakable, inexplicable horrors transpire in the Pits to morph what once were humans into these relentless and compunctionless machines of destruction?

    Yet the Culexus Temple is something far apart from all of the above. The Imperial Guard are human; the Space Marines are more than human; the Assassins are less than human; but the Culexi are something altogether... different. To gaze into the yawing, ravenous maw of the Animus Speculum is to plunge into the realm of insanity. A Culexus Assassin is a beast, an abomination, a hideous and appalling cosmic mistake that a flaw in the order of Creation has allowed to endure. Merely to be in proximity to one is sufficient to induce intense pain in someone.

    The Culexus Temple is not merely unlike the other Assassins, they bear no relation to anything else in the Imperium. Like the blank void that is their soul, what harrowing process debases someone into a Culexus is one of the most opaque mysteries of the entire Warhammer 40,000 canon. Their aberrant nature raises many questions: what exactly are their origins, why the Imperium tolerates the existence of such patently dangerous creatures (they may be specialist anti-psyker weapons, but are such monstrous entities capable of being handled safely indefinitely?), and, like the C'Tan Phase Sword of a Callidus, where exactly their equipment originates from.

    After some meditation on the matter, I would like to forward the hypothesis that the Culexus Temple is actually where the Illuminati are, shall we say, 'storing' captured Sensei.
    --------------------------
    --------------------------
    I'm confident that people on this forum know of the Sensei-Illuminati plot, an old strand of Warhammer 40,000 lore that dates back to Rouge Trader, but here is a quick recap for those who don't.

    Sensei are the ageless "sons" of the Emperor (it isn't known whether this means that they are literally the Emperor's biological sons, or men who greatly emulate him in the sense that Christ was the Son of God), and they are psychic nulls (i.e. they have absolutely no presence in the Warp) who possess the paranormal ability to manipulate and channel the energies of the Immaterium to their will - making them effectively minature walking Blackstone Fortresses. They also are afflicted with collective amnesia - they possess no knowledge of their imperial forebear, their origins, the existence of their brethren or even the full extent of their own abilites.

    The Illuminati are an organisation so secretive that even the Inquisition knows next to nothing about them. Members of the Illuminati are astonishingly potent beings - they are men who have been possessed by daemons, but retain such mighty willpower, strength and faith that they have been able to defeat them alone and without assistance. The Illuminati have successfully infiltrated all branches of the Imperium, from the Administratum to the Arbites, and possess the ultimate ambition of resurrecting the Emperor - to do this, they need the Sensei, because the result of their mass sacrifice would be to rip the Emperor's soul back out of the Warp.
    ---------------------------------
    ---------------------------------

    Now, I'm fully aware that the Sensei-Illuminati conspiracy has fallen into abeyance and is not being pursued currently by Games Workshop - but equally it hasn't been disproved either, and so I am confident that if the Development Team ever decides to recommence the storyline, their activities shall be concentrated on the Culexus Temple.

    The Illuminati's hunt for the Sensei has lasted as long as the Imperium has, and as the Sensei are dispersed all across the galaxy it stands to reason that once a Sensei has been discovered the Illuminati would want to make certain that he could be arrested, controlled and managed, and not risk him eluding surveillance. Hence the notion of the Temple as a prison, where all of the 'collected' Sensei are detained. Both Culexus Assassins and Sensei are psychic nulls - and whilst you may consider this to be 'coincidental', psychic nulls are immensely rare so it's more than likely that a good few Culexi are Sensei even if the Illuminati isn't involved in them - and seeing how the Illuminati possess a presence in every Imperial department, that they could ignore these creatures is impossible. The abilities of a Culexus Assassin - particularly the discharge from his Animus Speculum - are also wholly consistent with the mastery of the Warp allowed by a Sensei.

    But why would the Illuminati sponsor the creation of such monsters as Culexus Assassins? For one, you mustn't forget that the Sensei are simply tools for the Illuminati, a means to an end. They don't care about their personalities, they care about their powers. Also, it is likely that whatever insane procedure is practiced for the creation of a Culexus would wipe out whatever vestiges of independence survive in a Sensei.

    And what better way to disguise a massive conspiracy than to dress it up in the trappings of official Imperial business? By having the captured Sensei battling the enemies of the Imperium, they are rendered largely above suspicion, whilst all the while the Illuminati were steadily building up their arsenal on Earth, in close proximity to the Golden Throne for ease of transport when their ambition comes to be realised...

    Of course, the Age of Apostasy somewhat threw the Assassins out of kilter and now their Temples are dispersed to prevent another ravaging of the Imperial Palace by them, which plays havoc with the logistics of transporting the Sensei to the Golden Throne. This doesn't preclude Illuminati involvement, though - the civil war was of such massive scale I doubt that even they could successfully control it.

    Also, we have the matter of the Ordo Sicarius, the Inquisitorial body formed to observe the Officio Assassinorum - whilst remaining virtually unheard of for ten millenia shows that the Illuminati are quite adept at destroying evidence, the Culexus Temple is such a large-scale conpiracy that some details about the true purpose of the Culexi must leak out from time to time. But just because the Ordo Sicarius exists doesn't mean that the Illuminati plot in the Culexus Temple is impossible - indeed, the Ordo Sicarius is an excellent way to tie the Illuminati and the Sensei back into an active storyline with a natural narrative flow.

    Take as an example the following scenario: The Ordo Sicarius begins to become suspicious of activities in the Culexus Temple - scraps of evidence suggesting that psycho-analytical reports on the Assassins have been doctored and so forth - but as the Ordo proceeds to concentrate its energies on seeking the source of this meddling, its members are shocked to discover that a swathe of its agents in the Officio Assassinorum are suddenly 'demobilised'. Permanently.
    Greatly perturbed by this unprecedented retaliation - after all, Inquisitors pride themselves on their secrecy - the Lord of the Ordo Sicarius proposes an Inquisitorial Conclave to gather reinforcements and resources and discuss who could possibly have successfully counterattacked the Inquisition in what is the very heart of the Imperium.
    But as the great Conclave meets, the Illuminati, irked by the rival body's refusal to recognise a warning when it strikes them, start becoming more open and aggressive in their actions against the Sicarians, and it snowballs from there into a deadly secret war - one whose conclusion could surpass the Horus Heresy in its history-changing ramifications, but whose battling is unknown to all but the forbidding few... and perhaps one other.

  2. #2
    Zatrais
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    Interesting theory, cept that the Sensei are blanks not nulls like the culexus assassins are. A blank is just invisible in the warp, he cannot be seen. A null however has a black hole effect on the warp, drawing in warp energy and nulling it out. Humanity has had the genetrait of nulls placed by the Necron so they can breed humans for weapons against the warp, and for use as components in pariahs. The Sensei would be useless as culexus.

    Another hole in theory is why would the Illuminati risk their precious sensei as assassins? They run the risk of losing Sensei when they're out on assassin missions.

  3. #3
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    oook. You stick with that.:thumb:

  4. #4
    Not a Fish Sir Guppy's Avatar
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    nice idea, but i dont see it myself. but then i spose we will never know unless some official GW background appears.

  5. #5
    SGM_Azrael
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    Rob have you read the Eisenhorn Trilogy? It has within a character who is a psychic blank aka Untouchable. She is almost completely immune to psychic powers and projects a field of influence that stops those around her from being detected through psychic means.

  6. #6
    Khorne
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    nice theory, few flaws though, the "blank" genome in certian humans, implanted by necrons, was put in place long before the Emperor exsisted, so the Senshi cannot be "blanks" due to the genome which would cause it, for that ot work the emperor would have to be a blank, and if he were then the astronomicon wouldn't exsist so the imperiam wouldn't be here. also the Senshi are immortals gonig by the background, and culexus assassins are sometimes killed on missions, so that wouldn't work either.

  7. #7
    BamOBrien
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    the "blank" genome in certian humans, implanted by necrons,
    To my understanding there is no solid proof that the necrons implanted the untouchable quality into the human population, in fact as far as I know the human race had yet to even arise when the Necrons went into stasis.

    so the Senshi cannot be "blanks" due to the genome which would cause it
    Official fluff states that the Sensei are "blanks" which is why the Illumnati have such a hard time finding each of them.

    also the Senshi are immortals gonig by the background
    Immortal but not invincible; after all the Sensei are supposed to be killed in the end by the Illumnati to resurrect the Emperor.


    On-topic: Interesting theory Rob, but I have agree with Guppy, I don't see it happening anytime soon; after all, like you said, the Sensei story arc is somewhat neglected.

  8. #8
    Zatrais
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    To my understanding there is no solid proof that the necrons implanted the untouchable quality into the human population, in fact as far as I know the human race had yet to even arise when the Necrons went into stasis.
    Necron codex, page 8,9 and 17.

    Theres obiously a connection between humanity, the Necrons and the pariah gene trait.

  9. #9
    BamOBrien
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    Yes but that doesnt mean that the reason there are untouchables is because of the Necrons; there is an obvious connection between Necron Pariahs and untouchables yes, but thats mostly them collecting untouchables to become pariahs not Necrons going around changing the genetic structure of humans to foster generations of untouchables.

  10. #10
    Zatrais
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    So it would seem but the reference about the Devoured ones sowing a crop that is now being harvested can't be much else than the pariah gene for use as components in a anti psyker weapon, something the necron surely was developing as a counter to all the trouble they had with fighting the warp creatures. They don't want to make the same mistake twice.

    Its the last few sentences of page 9 and the picture of a culexus assassin that makes the reference pretty clear, atleast in my opinion.

  11. #11
    BamOBrien
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    I dont see how they would have considering how if human beings didn't even exist yet when they went into stasis; I have always seen the crop as life in general, after all the "harvesting" when used in reference to Necrons is usually referring to their domination of all life as a plaything/food source for the C'tan.

  12. #12
    Zatrais
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    "Humanity" was around then, in the form of tree-beasts. Besides, the entire story culminates around the culexus and a terrible crop. Thats the interesting part, terrible crop. Now why would a race such as the necron ever plant a crop and why would it be described as a terrible crop in an eldar legend? We know they didn't create humans, that was the Old Ones. So what else could that terrible crop be but humans with the pariah gene.

    The harvesting in that story reference could very well be the harversting of the humans with the genetic trait of a pariah for use in their troops.

  13. #13
    In my day, we made our OWN war Robert Frazer's Avatar
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    The problem is, Zatrais, that these "tree-beasts", lemurs, bubbling pools of primordial ooze and the like would not have made particularly impressive Pariahs... would you be able to take a Necron Ewok seriously? These "pariah genes" exist in humans, not animals. Nothing that could be conceivably described human had evolved sixty million years ago.

    Also, to respond to one of the criticisms you made in the first response - whilst of course there is a risk placed by using their Culexi-Sensei for assassination missions, you must remember that few Assassins are ever killed in action - they are very good at their profession. A Primarch (Konrad Curze, alias Night Haunter) was assassinated, for heaven's sake! Also, sending out a Sensei as an assassin where he faces limited specific threats would incur far less risk than leaving him at liberty and open to falling to all manner of unknown disasters - planetary cataclysms, Ork Waagh!s, lost to the Illuminati's sight when cut off by warp storms, and so forth.
    Last edited by Robert Frazer; 14th May 05 at 3:56 PM.

  14. #14
    Zatrais
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    Real life human evolutionary theories dosn't concern the 40k universe really, if a codex book says that humanity was comical tree beasts at the time of the god war then thats pretty cannon.

    However i never said they harvested those tree-climbers for use in their pariahs, infact they couldn't because it is only now that the crop they planted is growing into frutation, according to the last paragraph of the story on page 9 in the necron codex. I mentioned the tree climbers to show that "humanity" was around back then and the terrible crop sown, the terrible crop refering to the pariah gene.

    Really, the necrons lost their war due to the warp, the legend says that the eldar didn't want to touch the early humans because they were afraid og harming what life was left in the galaxy. Others were not afraid to do so, legends say the Devoured ones sow a terrible crop that is only now comming into frutation.

    Timely enough the re emerging of the necron happens just as humanity is evolving into psykers, with blanks and nulls popping up aswell. Conveniently enough, the necron already have a unit ready to utilise the humans with their pariah gene in a unit.

    To me its pretty much written in plain text that the necrons uses humanity to grow pariahs.

    Anyways, yes assassins are damn good but they do die at times. Just keeping the Sensei locked up would keep them even safer. Besides, you didn't touch the point that a sensei = a blank, a culexus = a null. A blank is rather useless as a culexus.
    Last edited by Zatrais; 15th May 05 at 3:20 AM.

  15. #15
    Khorne
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    Konrad kurz was killed because he let them, so that doesn't prove they are ffective, it proves Konrad was better, and that was a callidus that killed Konrad, not a culexus.

  16. #16
    In my day, we made our OWN war Robert Frazer's Avatar
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    Just keeping the Sensei locked up would keep them even safer.
    And let an entire prison of them conspire to combine their powers and blast their way out of whatever is incarcerating them? Disguising them as assassins prevents them from contacting other Sensei and so prevents awkward discussions about the true plans the Illuminati have for them. Furthermore, if a Sensei is used to a life of liberty they won't react well to incarceration - they need some degree of mobility otherwise they'd instinctively lash out at whatever restraine them.

    Besides, you didn't touch the point that a sensei = a blank, a culexus = a null. A blank is rather useless as a culexus.
    I acknowledge this. However, it doesn't detract from the fact that both Sensei and Culexi both possess Warp-channeling abilities, so there's likely to be some sort of connection. Indeed, dramatic fluff can account well for the blank/null discrepancy, and creates a harrowing, dirty scenario that would suit these secret wars well.

    The Illuminati need the Sensei for their Warp-channeling abilities, not because they're psychic blanks (it is the former which will let them extrude the Emperor's soul from the Immaterium), as such, whether the "blank" aspect of them changed after capture would not overly concern the Illuminati - indeed, it would be wholly desirable as the Sensei would now produce a signal in the Empyrean and so be easier to track if any one of them escapes. As such, it is likely that whatever insane, debased, appalling, dreadful and inhuman procedures are practiced on Sensei to degenerate them into servile, insane Culexi, changes them from blanks to nulls, presumably by great twisting of the Warp around and within them.

    I know that the above may seem to be speculation, but it is reasoned and remains consistent with the overall shadowy mysteries of the Officio Assassinorum in general.
    Last edited by Robert Frazer; 15th May 05 at 3:49 PM.

  17. #17
    Anaris
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    And she died afterwards, I believe.

    The thing is, GW fluff contradicts itself. It does so with pride. What you're doing is marrying two concepts; it's possible, but it's only that, a possibility. There's no overarching fluff plan that you've spotted, it's just a theory you've come up with.

    Although, if I recall my Realms of Chaos, the Sensei are not blanks like the Culexus. They have certain warp powers related to their heritage as the archetypes of human goodness; they can manifest and control the positive energy, using it to heal and the like. This means that the Necron theory can coexist with the Sensei fluff.

  18. #18
    Zatrais
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    It's a very interesting theory aye, but why would you assume the illuminati would care about the well being of the sensei? Lock'm up in single cells and leave'm til they're gonna be slaughered. Less hassle than having to train them as Culexus, dosn't create a non proven link that a blank can become a null and is well more practical hehe.

    "Hey guys, we need to save the emperor now! Quick lets sacrefice the sensei!"

    "Sorry Bob, we can't get the sensei back for another 3 weeks, they're out killing tyranids."

    "Ah bugger"

    *shrug* Still a very interesting and well tought out theory.

  19. #19
    Chaplain Craig
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    well, thats very very good, but since GW has 'forgot' about the sensi and Star Child stuff, we will never know.

  20. #20
    Cailet
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    My biggest thought on reading this is in the PM (Marry me dammit!)

    There are certain holes in this (pointed out by others, the Necron Pariahs being the central one) but it does tie in with a lot, the Eldar fluff in the Necron Codex for instance gains a surprising relevance.

  21. #21
    Sword Munkeh in Spaaaace Sword_Monkey's Avatar
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    could people quote the pariah gene fluff to ascertain wether the necron planted it in the human race, or it simply developed and the necron took advantage of it in their pariahs.

    i like this theory, i have only recently heard the true story of all this start child, sensei, and illuminati stuff but i may have something interesting.

    i forget where it is from and so i can't quote directly but;
    eldrad ulthran learned of the position of the culexus temple, and so he assembled a crack team to strike it, whilst travelling to the small rock (possibly pluto) where the temple lay, he divined the outcome of the attack. he saw ulthwe burning, he did not understand the implications of this but he knew the culexus were key to something, so he called off the attack at the last moment.

    - the culexus seem to be the most important assassin, but for what reason i don't know, maybe the sensei theory is the best bet.
    - if the temple was destroyed then the sensei would die, causing the emperor soul to be ripped free, causing the appearance of the star child blah blah blah.
    - the destruction of ulthwe would then either be caused by the emperors lightnung crusade (if illuminati succeed), but more likely chaos would storm out of the eye of terror destroying ulthwe comletely cos it is so near,(if illuminati fail and emperors protection disappears)

    it all seems to fit with the origianl theory, but it is just the same leap of imagination as it.

  22. #22
    mortifactor
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    I'm not suitably convinced there is a significant difference to GW between blanks and nulls, as both terms get bandied about in the books for the same basic thing... people who not only don't exist in the warp, but actually supress it around them. I like the whole theory, and sort of dislike the idea that Necrons (and Old ones, and Shamans and and and) have all made plans for humanity before they even existed for the coming war... it's getting very crowded in the thing's man was not meant to know catagory.

  23. #23
    Sorry, I'm going to post purely based off what i remember from the old critical hit fluff page, so i can't give the actual source.

    The Senseis were the descendents of the emperor through his ages of living amongst mortals.
    Quote Originally Posted by [HvK]Firemark!
    Eldar Give Marines Spanks Early Game,
    Marines Give Eldar Spanks Mid Game,
    And if you reach a late game -- wait.. late game?
    Estuans interius ira vehemente.

  24. #24
    it's getting very crowded in the thing's man was not meant to know catagory.
    Thats how it always is, even in RL.

  25. #25
    Zatrais
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    mortifactor, there used to be a bigger difference in that a blank was just a blank, he couldn't be affected by the warp but he also didn't project anything around him. A null created a field around him that nulled things out while a void created a litteral void in the warp, i'm not sure how that would differ from a null but hey.

    Now they're all pretty much the same tho so hehe.

  26. #26
    Interestingly enough, in order for the Sensei to be psi-negatives, it means the Emperor must be a psi-negative, that the Emperor would /not/ be a psychic and thus be a C'Tan plant instead of the savior of mankind. He made the primarchs in his image, and if he were a psi-negative his primarchs would too. At that rate, they would not have been tainted by the warp, there would be no heresy, the Great Crusade would overwhelm the galaxy and in one fell swoop, the C'tan would awaken, depose the Emperor and eat all the humans and rejoice in the Red Harvest.

    So no, the Sensei and the Emperor are nothing like the Culexus. They are not psi-negatives, they are not C'tan patsies; otherwise things would be even more dystopic and despondent than they are now.
    "In the future, I plan on taking more of an active role in the decisions I make." ~Paris Hilton

  27. #27
    Cailet
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    Firstly, you assume that all negatives are a C'tan plant. Which may not be the case and even if it is, C'tan plant and Humanitie's Saviour are not incompatible.

    Secondly, the Sensei and Culexus alike have some ability to manipulate the Warp. Also, Primarchs are made from the undiluted stock of the Emperor and will thus have closer abilities to him where a naturally concieved child would not. Also, the Emperor had a right old time trying to locate the Primarchs and they were quite strongly connected to him, the Sensei, a greater step removed and unknown tho him would be invisible.

    Psychic Blanks/nulls/whatever may well have been planted by the C'tan and yet have no intention of following the c'tan plan, certainly not of their own will.

    I'll edit later, food is calling me.

  28. #28
    mortifactor
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    Of course, the emperor isn't particularly trying to locate the senseis, at least not according to any version of the story I am familiar with.

  29. #29
    Wandering Swordsman Lestaki's Avatar
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    One theory would be that blanks can become nulls. After all, they already have some calming affect on the warp, so from that to no presence at all is a much smaller step than from being a normal human to being a null. Nulls occur naturally, or by the C'Tan, so either way the Illumini may be using arcane processes to turn their Sensei into fully paid up nulls. After all, the personality change from Sensei hero to morally dead assassin is a huge leap. It is not inconcievable that there is a more physical change as well. In this way, the Illumini may be "seeding" the existing Culexus with their own Sensei, for the reasons Robert outlined. And this resolves the "Emperor as a Null" issue.

    Just a thought. Let's not let common sense stand in the way of a good conspiracy theory!
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  30. #30
    Cailet: Codex Necrons indicates that they created the Pariah gene, the "psi negative"/psi-null found in the Culexus.

  31. #31
    Cailet
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    Cailet: Codex Necrons indicates that they created the Pariah gene, the "psi negative"/psi-null found in the Culexus.
    1. Indicates is not 'they did'.
    2. Mutation of genetics. The gene may well have mutated in however many million years (of course in that case, under this theory the Sensei might be closer to the 'pure form', of course assuming that the intended form was the 'pure' one not some later variant, after all, the C'tan have some form of Farsight...)

  32. #32
    Aces_High
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    Can we back up real quick? Since when were null and blank separate terms? As far as I know they are one in the same.

    Additionally, the Pariah theory is just that: A theory. As is Mr. Frazer's proposal, and so they don't really serve as good counter-evidence to one another.

    That said, I think Robert Frazer has hit on an facinating possibility in the 40k universe. The only major knock against it is simply the age of the Sensei/Illuminati/Star Child fluff. One could debate it isn't really canon anymore.

  33. #33
    Zatrais
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    There's a whole page dedicated to the culexus assassin in the necron codex and a huge picture of one with the last sentences being:

    Legends said that the Devoured Ones had sown a terrible crop in ages past. Now it was growing into fruitation and the harvesters were being readied.
    Now lets see, those 2 sentences, a whole page in the necron codex, a huge picture, voids are just emerging and the only thing the necron need to harvest from humans are voids for parts of their pariahs.

    To me thats not just a theory, thats enough to make it a fact.

  34. #34
    I'm not 100% sure about my facts by all means correct me if i'm wrong but why is the inquisition hunting sensei? I know the illuminati aren't the only ones looking for them. The inquisition i assume plans to destroy them yet, if they are carrying out the emperor's will then they'd realize that the emperor knew humanity would turn into a psyker race and these sensei seem to be the purest form. Able to channel the positive side of the warp, immuned to chaos taint and able to purge chaos taint without harming the tainted. They'd make perfect inquisitors doesn't the inquisition know what they're capable of? The way I see it they should be left alone to breed to their hearts content in the hopes that they're off-springs turn out to be sensei.

  35. #35
    Cailet
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    Zatrais, that page also had a story about the Callidus Asassins IIRC. Anyway, the first objection I raised wasn't the important one, more a matter of semantics, I think it's the Pariah Gene too.

    The second one is the important one.

  36. #36
    mortifactor
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    The Inquisition would hunt the Sensei because they are a rogue element, something that is a threat, no matter how minor seeming, to the Imperial Beauracrasy, and thus the Inquisitions power base. It doesn't matter any more what the Emperor planned for his Imperium, all that matters to those with power is maintaining and growing their own power.

    On that regards, I would seem to disagree with many posters and even the official fluff in that I don't think the Imperium would fall if the Emperor did die. It'd be more a spiritual blow than a physcial/political one. the Navis Nobiliate predates the Imperium, mankind spread to the stars prior to the Imperium, and survived. The Astronomicon is an Aid, not a requirement. Personally, I wouldn't be surprised if a number of those in power secretly wished the 'old corpse would just up and die finally' just so they could move to take his place some how.

  37. #37
    In my day, we made our OWN war Robert Frazer's Avatar
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    On that regards, I would seem to disagree with many posters and even the official fluff in that I don't think the Imperium would fall if the Emperor did die. It'd be more a spiritual blow than a physcial/political one. the Navis Nobiliate predates the Imperium, mankind spread to the stars prior to the Imperium, and survived. The Astronomicon is an Aid, not a requirement. Personally, I wouldn't be surprised if a number of those in power secretly wished the 'old corpse would just up and die finally' just so they could move to take his place some how.
    I'll get back to you on that when every single world of every single species in the galaxy is plummeting into a vortex of whirling and tormented insanity as Chaos erupts into dominance without the Emperor to keep the Ruinous Powers in check any more...

  38. #38
    Wandering Swordsman Lestaki's Avatar
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    The problem that the Inquisition has with the Sensi is that to a greater or lesser extent all Sensi share traits with their forebearer, in that they are valient, charismatic and visionary individuals with a great ability to inspire belief and faith and an even greater tendancy to fight injustice and tyranny. The Imperium isn't quite what the Emperor had in mind before he snuffed it, and his children spend more time subverting it than supporting it. To the Inquisition, the Sensi are a dangerously potent rouge elemant that they simply cannot control.

    Though I agree, Sensi are born Daemonhunters.

  39. #39
    I wish GW would do something with this endless stalemate. I'm not saying it should end now just set the story on a course that has a godamn ending. Bring the emperor back, kill the emperor whatever just change the godamn universe .

  40. #40
    Cailet
    Guest
    Read the Necron thread on this page for why that might be a bad idea...

  41. #41
    mortifactor
    Guest
    Yet, oddly, the ruinous powers weren't exactly running rampant before the Emperor. Heck, before mankind even. That is, unless you are suggesting that the Eldar were saved from total damnation, living in a galaxy that was one giant eye of terror before man evolved, the Shaman got jiggy and bore a bouncing baby boy who held Chaos back...

    That's my problem with the statement: the emperor's power holds the forces of Chaos in check...

    I don't doubt he helps out a bit, but the galaxy spun merrily along without him for a long long time, and unless the nids somehow eat everything, then it will continue to spin along merrily long after Terra is consumbed by it's sun, and the Emperor is truly gone.

  42. #42
    Zatrais
    Guest
    Thats mainly because the big 4 are a fairly recent adition to the universe when you look at it from a millions of years perspective. You have to remember that the enslavers incident purged the galaxy of most warp sensitive life and as a result the warp was a calm space for millions of years, until life started to flourish again and their emotions filled the warp, causing the warp to become the place it is today.

    How and when they actually came into existance is well unsaid as far as i know, cept ofcourse of she who thirsts.

  43. #43
    Anaris
    Guest
    Mort: The Emperor has existed since prehistory. As far as I recall, the three non-Slaanesh Chaos Gods awoke during the middle ages.

  44. #44
    mortifactor
    Guest
    I'm trying to figure out your timeline here... The old ones, then the Necrontyr, then a bunch of other races, Necrons/C'tan, eldar and orks and a bunch of other races, rip open warp, lots of chaos all about, then enslavers, so no chaos gods until mankind shows up? Despite the presence of Eldar and Orks, and presumably all those alien races that the Emperor of Man went about exterminating during his Great Crusade, liberating human worlds left and right (okay, so I don't have any hard proof he successfully exterminated anyone. But we are talking the Emperor here, if he wanted to, and we know he did, he certainly would have succeeded at least a bit. So a couple got overlooked...(eldar/orks again).

    Don't buy it. There was plenty of life in the galaxy for the Chaos Gods to exist. Don't have a timeline for the birth of Slaaneesh, but I do think it occured at some point prior to the arrival of the Emperor, and there were already two others. Khorne, being the simplest and most primal has probably existed... well forever. Anytime you raise a rock and bash in someones head, you are feeding khorne at least a little bit. Similar arguments for Nurgle, any time a species was hit hard by disease, fearing it... Nurgle gets a bit of juice. Unless man is the only species susceptable to disease. Who only knows with Tzeench, it could have been the cunning bastard to direct the C'tan to teh Necrontyr, just to cause the Old Ones, eventually, to rip open the Warp.

    So, no, I don't buy that they are 'recent additions'. At least Two are as old as every living species, and the third is unknowable. In Cosmic terms, yes Slaanesh is pretty young, but compared to the Emperor, she's an old woman.

  45. #45
    Anaris
    Guest
    I don't know, but the date I've seen given on these forums by people who do is during the middle ages. Slaanesh took thousands of years of developed, heightened and cultured emotion. I assume maybe the others took the same. I've also heard it said that the Fall wasn't before the evolution of man.

  46. #46
    mortifactor
    Guest
    That creates a different logistical difficulty then. The Eldar empire was in full force for the entire time that it's being postulated that there weren't enough critters walking around to cause Chaos Gods to exist, since we do know the Eldar date back to the War in Heaven, which was so long ago we weren't even damned dirty apes yet. Never mind the Orks... I can't buy a depopulated Galaxy that is just starting to flourish again when you have TWO highly developed species, with galaxy spanning demographic footprints that existed, as highly developed species with galaxy spanning demographic footprints prior to the depopulation thing. Never mind that the galaxy was teeming with more than enough life, and violent warlike life prior to that to have given birth to a couple of chaos gods prior to this depop. thing.

    And this whole Enslaver thing? More holes than the Necron/C'tan stuff. It should disappear deeper than the Illuminati/Starchild stuff. Either that or we should start seeing some sort of Enslaver army...

  47. #47
    Anaris
    Guest
    Uh, we have. There are rules for Enslavers in one of the recent WDs.

    http://www.criticalhit.co.uk/compone...per/Itemid,55/

    This clearly shows it all. Emperor is pre-Chaos gods.

  48. #48
    Cailet
    Guest
    The Fall was in m29 or so.

  49. #49
    Zatrais
    Guest
    The thing is that for some reason the toughts and emotions of the earlier life, that suffered under the war in the heavens didn't create any chaos gods (atleast not any that got recorded) but instead they created the enslavers incident that cause the very border between the material and immaterial realms to crack open, spewing forth hordes of chaos creatures and most noteably among them the enslavers.

    Now the result of that was the virtual annihilation of life in the galaxy, only very few survived. Now with the warp having spewn out all its energies in the form of enslavers and other beasts that left the galaxy almost void of creatures able to fuel the warp with emotions the warp would return to a quiet and serene place. That would simply be unable to even support the chaos gods.

    Since the actual date of creation of the chaos gods has never been establised (only the date of their awakening has been stated, but thats in really old fluff) here's my theory of the chaos gods.

    As life started to slowly creep back over the millions of years after the enslavers incident energies started to trickle back into the warp. More and more life started to spring up all over the galaxy, albeit horribly slower than earlier as the old ones were not around to speed things up. With the life came schemez, wars and plagues. Over millions of years these energies pooled in the warp until they finaly reached levels high enough to create concious warp gods. That they awoke during the mideval times is just a coincidence but thats not to say that humans didn't add any energies that helped created them, however smal that amount might be.

  50. #50
    mortifactor
    Guest
    I stand at least partially corrected. As I don't have Realms of Chaos, of course I didn't have that. I did not that the exact phrase was 'awaken to full power'. Interesting choice of words, suggesting that they were already up there. I also found the date of the fall curious. Either way, it doesn't speak highly of the Emperor's dampening abilities on the Warp, if the Chaos Gods were awoken, or born for that matter, while he was around 'dampening things'. He had four millenia to stop the 'awakening, and another 27 to stop the birth of another (something he could accomplish by exterminating the Eldar, which is something he'd really like to do anyway, making way for Man and all.)

    Great damper.

    Is there an equally detailed timeline regarding this whole Enslaver thing?

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