|
|
|
is it normal that plasma weapon counter all the orks army ?
i agree that heavy bolter too.
but i was just thinking that their is no real solution against SM and CSM plasma. It kill evrything so fast, sluggas, nobs, heros...
now we dont have trak anymore, SM and CSM ruch plasma cause they dont fear traks anymore... we really need something to counter that !!!
Originally Posted by jeantend
Last edited by jeantend; 29th May 05 at 4:12 PM.
"The object of war is not to die for your country, but to make the other bastard die for his." - Gen. George S. Patton
-Kill the Eldars / Free the Orks-
#2
The solution to plasma is... suck it up I'm affraid. =\
The one thing orks have over a marine player who goes heavy on plasma is that big shootas out range plasma guns, which gives you a sneaky advantage in shoot outs. Docs help a lot against plasma, not just the fighting juice but the healing aura too. When marines are shooting plasma and moving, their accuracy is lowered and the player can't chose which squad to shoot at, they simply shoot at whatever is closest.
Plama is the new flavour of the week at the moment. I've been using plasma against orks for a very long time, it's just that more people are realising how tactically flexible it is compared to heavy bolters.
Chriss is that IG hater he wanted them to nerf everything about igs
yes... what boggles my mind is how big shootas cost 40/30! compared to a plasma's 40/10.... its got 30 range, DOMINATES heavy infantry at 40 dps, CHEWS regular infantry at 16 dps, and can move and shoot... all for dirt cheap. id put a plasma gun at least at 40/30 (after all... it IS a POWER based weapon)... they are definately worth it, and it might encourage people to still use heavy bolters sometimes even in tier 2.
yes people are finally figuring out plasma is simply the best anti-infantry heavy weapon in almost all situations. hopefully its superiority will be noticed and given a rightful price increase.
Last edited by GRIM Ripper; 19th May 05 at 11:29 PM.
I heard that ork heavy weapons used to be cheap and what happened was that you got inummerable ork squads with 3 shootas each. Nothing had a chance not even WS.
#5
It was interesting... I did a lot of tests at the time. BSes WOULD beat WSes for cost, but ONLY because the BSes did stupid insane morale damage. WSes would break almost instantly. It was a trip.
Rather than nerfing the morale damage, Relic boosted the cost. Don't know why.
All my "by the numbers" posts and other useful info:
http://forums.relicnews.com/showthread.php?p=698050
well, regardless of how much big shootas cost, i still think plasma deserves to cost 40/30....
#7
Be aware though that a single slugga survives longer to Plasma than a marine will, and is cheaper. So your main disadvantage (fragility) has just been negated by THEM. So yeah bulk up on heavy weapons and pay them back for it.
Let's Play Europa Universalis 3: Divine Wind
Let's Play Master of Magic: Abandoned
In the beginning there was nothing. Then Steam crashed.
I play ork so i never even see plasma weapons but christ 5 power? wth,BS are 30..something ain't right there.....
#9
Plasma guns aren't 5 power... except for the scout plasma version, which isn't nearly as good last I checked.
noz, no bc plasma still does twice as much as a standard bolter vs orks, AND slaughters nob leaders. you cannot make the marine player pay for getting plasma... ever.
but you say... bulk up on heavy weapons? oh you mean big shootas which do LESS damage vs marines with 300 HP than a plasma does to sluggas with 175 HP, and for less power? hmmm doesnt sound too good. itll take 11 seconds for one plasma to kill an ork, but itll take 23 seconds for one big shoota to kill a marine. ouch.
at such a cheap price of 40/10 (about the price of a marine, but you get about the extra damage of one marine vs sluggas PLUS massive damage vs heavy infantry so its easily worth the price especially since you lose no mobility), slaughtering nob leaders (the backbone of the ork army) and killing reg orks twice as fast WHILE on the move is almost always the most efficient thing to do.
edit: ok yes youre right... its 10 power. still everything i said still applies. its cheap as dirt for what it does. oh, and scout plasma is about 90-95% as effective as regular marine plasma.
#11
Don't use NL then. Honestly the main reason NL are used is because of their survivability, which is moot here. So spend the cost on another ork with a BS (bout the same), or go for more squads, or for gods sake try something else. NL clearly won't work here. Hell get some trukks out if you really need to.
About Scout Plasma guns, check the numbers, they're almost equal to their SM counterparts (not surprising since they cost almost the same amount).
#13
Even slightly cheaper and slightly worse they're still fair IMO.
#14
I go for plasma vs orks as well. They are far superior to the HBs which you simply can't dance with... and you need to be able to dance against the hordes of orks hunting after you.
Increasing plasma to 40/30? erm... no... just no. An ork has way easier getting early generators up then a C/SM. Even with 40/10 I often run out of power. Also orks have those dirt cheap weapon upgrades at the PoG, oh and plasma is tier 2 for that sake. while BSs are available usually far before a C/SM can get an armory up.
Non mihi,
non tibi,
sed nobis.
i forgot orks could spam BSs in the early game with 1 gen and the cheap 30 power requirement.....Also orks have those dirt cheap weapon upgrades at the PoG, oh and plasma is tier 2 for that sake. while BSs are available usually far before a C/SM can get an armory up.
on a less cynical note, how about using burnas? they're much cheaper and will stop dancing squads from dealing damage.
Recently I've been enjoying the use of infiltrated scout squads with plasma guns, they aren't as good as marines ones but they pack a punch.
So much fun :yippee:
exactly sais... the money ork saves on their cheaper generators isnt even enough to buy ONE big shoota... wow yeah watch out for the big shoota spam. you could use burnas, but vs marines with rally at 50 morale and the ability, theyre certainly not as potent as they could be (especially if the marine player is smart and has one beavy bolter squad in the back to fall back behind and to aid in the slaughtering).
and noz, you dont seem to get it. nob leaders or not, plasma owns orks. first of all without nob leaders you will lose MUCH more sluggas in melee (and likely to break faster), especially if they bother with the power sword/fist upgrade. marines ARE good in melee dont forget. throw in one heavy bolter squad and suddenly your survivability is zero. and also you will have your nob leaders out BEFORE they have plasma, so its not like youre going to wait to see if theyre going plasma before you prepare your real army.
secondly, plasma STILL does TWICE the damage of a bolter vs regular orks. you can skip nob leaders all you want, but thats not going to change the fact that you will be taking in a lot of extra damage AND the fact that nob leaders will be moot; just the fact that plasma could potentially eliminate orks only saving grace in the nob leader from even coming out at all says a lot. thats the whole problem... its NEVER NOT benificial to go plasma bc its at least a soft counter vs everything and a hard counter vs nob leaders. and i already told you, plasma vs big shootas just will not work, period. you cannot outgun a well played marine army for cost, youll be spending WAY more energy and putting it on a much less sruvivable platform (so each big shoota is easier to kill, and hurts you much worse) and be outgunned with big shootas.
santiago, plasma comes in tier 2 so you will have at least 1-2 generators up as it is; plasma does the most specialized damage in the game (40dps vs heavy_med... greater than that of a warp spider vs orks) of any heavy weapon, while doing solid damage to everything else... it deserves to cost a lot considering its got no set up time. making them 40/30 would also make marine vs marine/chaos games more dynamic if you couldnt just spam plasma on all your marines for the slaughter.
#18
And you don't seem to understand that most opponents aren't going to be sitting there shooting back at you, they're going to be dancing away as you run to melee. At which point your BS are firing and their Plasma isn't. Small ork squads are still a massive advantage.
#19
i think nerfing plasma wouldnt be too bad.
the problem with it is, if your in a QS game, the first thing any marine player will do(any player worth his salt) is build an armory, mass marine squads then get heavy weapon no+ and mass plasma. then they will jsut sit their marines in one place, and completely own ANYTHING that walks up/past.
so in all fairness, when someone masses it, you will lose in the run up. best thing is to use viehcals to take up fire, or assult troops to tie them up.
that isnt viable to ork. once again, their infantary masses are their weakness and their lack of viehcals make it worse.
You should check out Priority Vox Channel Secundus, a blog!
#20
Actually, I can sit with an army of plasma/bolters, (mixed because I went from tier 1 to tier 2, so I have at least one squad with 4 bolters left on it I expect), right up until you get into melee. Then turn and run. And I'm quite sure the ork will take more damage than I will trying that.And you don't seem to understand that most opponents aren't going to be sitting there shooting back at you, they're going to be dancing away as you run to melee. At which point your BS are firing and their Plasma isn't. Small ork squads are still a massive advantage.
Have you ever tried charging plasma without fighting Juice? Much worse than bolters in my experience…
But I would say this entire topic is a mute point in a 1v1. Bolters outrange lps, mow down orks, outrange waaah banners. I would be surprised at equal skill if the SM needed plasma... maybe they'd mix in a few for variety, and to make it easier to nail Nob leaders, but honestly, there's no need.
Nob leaders are the only viable option Nozekiller... if they have plasma, they already DID, mass hbotlers, they already countered shootas with big shootas. Plasma is just icing. (it's so pretty! +.=), so actually… in any context where the SM has tier 2, and is free to mix in some plasma squads with there heavy bolters. You're already at game over =/
And her beauty was all the more elegant and graceful, preserved forever unchanged within the depths, for her innocence and youth would last forever, within that great glacier of ice.
~ OD-Rapier
#21
Ok why don't you have juice? You can easily have 46 pop by the time he has Tier 2, if not before.Actually, I can sit with an army of plasma/bolters, (mixed because I went from tier 1 to tier 2, so I have at least one squad with 4 bolters left on it I expect), right up until you get into melee. Then turn and run. And I'm quite sure the ork will take more damage than I will trying that.
Have you ever tried charging plasma without fighting Juice? Much worse than bolters in my experience…
#22
Because if I have juice it's harder to show that plasma are better than bolters vs Ork. =)
Yes you could have juice by the time they have plasma, easy. Although I think in all probability the SM with bolters will keep banner/lp destroying, so you might not and/or, won't be competative econwise anymore.
Assuming you do have juice... They see it and run away earliar... which is what all players do when they see docs + juice. Since the cool down is long.. you can just kite around taking a few casualties and then slaughter.
Fighting Juice is irrelivent to a comparission of bolters to plasma though. (since neither can kill with it in place).
Edit: In fact, becuase plasma is better on the move and in dancing situations... Plasma is actually better vs fighting juice.
#23
Or just delete your doc and build another. Close enough to your base you can keep a squad alive indefinately doing this.Since the cool down is long.. you can just kite around taking a few casualties and then slaughter.
#24
I consider that abuse...
So if I had to do that to compete, I'd say there was a fault somewhere.
#25
Even without that, 4 squads with juice and BS running in will do pretty damn well.
#26
Except Nozekiller, why did the SM let me keep 4 squads of Big shooters without harassing me with superior hb range, all the way till he had plasma and I had juice? Hence thinking that in the current game state, the power of plasma vs Ork is a bit irrelevant =).
#27
I'd agree in 1.2, but in 1.3 orks are starting to feel like they're in the same boat as CSM/SM used to be in. Build a gen too soon/too late and you're wormfood. There's less pressure on orks to horde power for trakk spam, but upgrading LPs, nob leaders, big shootas and banners all begins to add up very quickly. Infact I'd be willing to bet that the increasing reliance on big shootas makes orks MORE power-intensive than they were in 1.2, it's just that the power is being spent sooner in the game at a more constant rate, instead of being hoarded up until trakks.An ork has way easier getting early generators up then a C/SM. Even with 40/10 I often run out of power. Also orks have those dirt cheap weapon upgrades at the PoG, oh and plasma is tier 2 for that sake. while BSs are available usually far before a C/SM can get an armory up.
Same range IIRC.without harassing me with superior hb range
Note here. When relic designed the game they based it off the fluff for 40K. In that respect Plasma should own most infantry. Instead of complaining about ballance issues find ways around it. SM have plasma get their attention with a maxed out squad of sluggas and then jump a few stormboyz in. Works like a charm. I would say I usually have maybe 2 squads of sluggas and 3-4 squads of Stormboyz by the time a sm player hits tier 2.
If there is no resistance, its an ambush.
plasma should not hurt light infantry !
#30
Yeah nerf plasma... already have nerfed GLs and horrors... way to go on the way to turn chaos into a race that has NOTHING except sorc spam and defiler spam. Not to mention that our HWs already are worse of then the SM version (MLs anyone?). We already had about half the viable chaos strats nerfed to oblivion with this patch, that the others were made stronger is not justification, just poor balancing.
Ofcourse you will take a lot of losses charging into a wall of plasma marines shooting for all they're worth. And ofcourse I will get WTFPWNED badly if you instead jump in with mass SBs and BM/slugga squad with FJ on while 2 squads of BS shootas runs in after them.
Lets go and nerf everything that chaos has going for them... except the sorc and defiler ofcourse. Lets diversify the chaos strategies by making every single infantry options we have equally sucky, so that we can choose which unit we want to lose the game with.
HBs blows ass, they are not worth to get against a decent opponent. Setup weapons in general blows total ass.
The reason you are seing a lot of plasma rines around is because the alternative we had, the horrors, got nerfed badly enough to not make them worth it compared to plasma rines.
The problem does not lie with plasma C/SMs. The problem lies with the ork race being nerfed too badly in the vehicle department. With no fear of trakks we can safely go mass plasma and anti-infantry totally since we don't need anti-vehicle... plasma does good enough work against trakks as unspammable as they are right now.
I agree with Santiago, there is no inherent problem with plasma, considering it is restricted to tier 2. Definitely shouldn't recieve a nerf.
The problem is MOST definitely ork. If Relic wants ork to be more infantry dependent fine; but the balance needs to be adjusted accordingly. There is NO REASON for BS to cost so much. 40/30? On a 165 HP unit, what's up? Plasma at 40/10 does 16 damage to orks, yet BS at 40/30 does 12 damage to marines?
It looks like they forgot to give orks a plasma-type weapon (i.e. heavy infantry counter). BS are well worth their money against light infantry. But when you actually need 'em- spiders and tacs- they are sorely outclassed for cost. 40/30 is WAY too much for a 12 damage weapon.
#32
Against light infantry plasma is only as cost efficient as a normal Bolter, with less HP per DPS to boot. Basically, the problem you face with basic Sluggas vs Plasma is the same problem you face with basic Sluggas vs massed Tac Marines.
Remember: you're a blogger. Pretense is your co-pilot.
Except plasma cuts through the only threats the orks have. Nob leaders and the big mek. Both die in seconds to plasma. Once they are dead the sluggas may as well not even be there.
#34
Fluff should lose to balance every time. Your's is a poor argument, and irrelevant to the discussion at hand.When relic designed the game they based it off the fluff for 40K. In that respect Plasma should own most infantry. Instead of complaining about ballance issues find ways around it.
Santiago, I don't see any specific mention of CSM in there. If there was a nerf, it would logically be in lockstep with SM.
Now, on the topic: I gotta agree with the "Orks are UP" argument. I don't see any reason why Plasma is OP, as it stands. Not yet. I look forward to more evidence.
Again, an ork issue. Not plasma's problem that it actually takes out what it's meant for. As Shoe mentioned, it's only baseline cost effective versus sluggas (better off with a vanilla SM for the HP, as Shoe said). Too bad BS isn't even close to cost effective versus heavy inf.Except plasma cuts through the only threats the orks have. Nob leaders and the big mek. Both die in seconds to plasma. Once they are dead the sluggas may as well not even be there.
#36
I think the BS cost issue is coupled with Mad Doks. dunno about you but the idea of 12 cheap BSs with FJ (4 squads with 3 BS each) bearing down on an infantry army makes me shit in my pants... especially since BSs are available before HBs, heck even 12 BSs without FJ on makes me shit my pants if I haven't had the time to tech to something decent to counter it with... what are my options in an early mass BS assault? CC them with my CSMs? Losing proposition. Run? And most likely be cut down.
And even if I have HBs up they can easily be tied up by BM + squad jumping in, that is 2 squads tied up in CC now being able to do anything while you are storming in and shooting me to bits and pieces... atleast that is what my scared mind imagines with 40/10 BS cost.
Oh and orks has an anti-heavy inf weapon... it's called CC. The BSs are for shooting up the poor humies that doesn't want to get slaughtered in CC.
That's every hummie that knows how to micro. Orks have no heav. inf. ranged weapon, yet were given BS to fight other orks at range? Strange. Somehow, I don't see rival orks standing back and gun dueling each other.The BSs are for shooting up the poor humies that doesn't want to get slaughtered in CC.
Yes, 12 BS with 4 doc's are somewhat scarey (really is 144 DPS to heav. inf. THAT scarey?=1 defiler). But at that level of expenditure (480/360 for the BS alone), the SM or CSM had better have something a little better than a couple of Tac squads. Plasma makes heavy inf. melt, BS not so much with 12 DPS.
Remember, we're talking 46 Ork Pop land, considering the mad doks. And one Word of the Emp is even more scarey.
40/10 BS cost would be as bd as beta, as santiago said. 40/25 would be nice though. I believe in small changes, not big changes that turn the game on its head (like 1.3).
#39
actually... i think Plasma rifles should cost 10 power more simply to bring its cost effectiveness more in line with the other heavy weapons. Seems a bit too good compared to HB et al at the moment, maybe thats me though..?
I disagree. I think the game should be balanced around the fluff... i.e. if it's not possible to include something in the game as it should be without causing an imbalance, then don't include it! This game is marketed as Warhammer 40,000 so it's not unreasonable to expect Warhammer 40,000. Sure it's not based on the tabletop rules as such, but it is based on the Warhammer 40,000 universe. If they Relic had wanted the Bloodthirster in the game, but made it really weak in order to balance it, everyone would have cried foul... and rightly so. Instead they made the Bloodthirster that people wanted to see, but balanced it by making it so expensive and difficult to research that by the time it's available your opponent should either have enough firepower to deal with it, or be already losing.Fluff should lose to balance every time. Your's is a poor argument, and irrelevant to the discussion at hand.
#41
didn't 1.3 teach us anything? Don't overdo things. If orks gets buffed next patch then we don't have to nerf the things they are having problems with as well.
480/360 for 12 BS? with current costs yes but I was referring to if BS is buffed to 40/10 cost. that is 480/120 instead. A decent sum but considering they do the same damage of 1 defiler (Do I really need to tell you how fast a defiler can eat up an entire army of infantry?) and can be FJed it is a scary scenario.
#42
15 power at least for BS.
plasma doesn't counter the ork army, plasma is not very cost effective against orks.
#44
on the contary, i always go plasma, maybe a squad or two in back with HB. but then again, im more inclined to go with flamers or just go viehcals and commander upgrades.
so no its not normal that plasma counters all ork army units, but it has to do some damage for the extra cost the player paid to buy it.
Where in fluff does it state that plasma costs 40/10 instead of 40/20? Or that BS do 12 DPS to heavy inf.? These things are the SOLE domain of game design and balancing.i.e. if it's not possible to include something in the game as it should be without causing an imbalance, then don't include it!
Yes, plasma should be "fluffy" in that it doesn't shoot purple pigs, or suck more than a las pistol. But fluff's effect should end there.
Hell even TT doesn't match fluff, where 1 marine can conquer the world. Why should the RTS be any less focused on actual effective gameplay?
Back on topic: On to psych and santiago's comments, I agree BS shouldn't be dropped to 40/10 if its stats stay untouched. But 40/25 seems like too small of a change to me. I'd probably Like them to be weakened and cheapened more, to reduce the current highly unpredictable effect of a single 165HP ork death (too much luck whether the "right" or "wrong" ork is killed).
Really, Really Back on Topic: sounds like we have a general consensus that the problem ain't SM/CSM plasma (which seems fine overall).
#46
Semantics.plasma doesn't counter the ork army, plasma is not very cost effective against orks.
There are very few units IMO that are COST EFFECTIVE in this game, what matters at the end of the day is which army is left standing. It's very easy to argue that "if player X has spent his resources in unit Y then you could have spent more resources to build unit Z to counter him" BUT that only assumes that resources are being spent on armies. That money I would have used to counter his army might have been spent on a generator or LP upgrade for example.
#47
In addition to what Stepsongrapes already said, I direct your attention to the Falcon. So Relic doesn't agree with you, either.I disagree. I think the game should be balanced around the fluff... i.e. if it's not possible to include something in the game as it should be without causing an imbalance, then don't include it!
I was purely talking about whether or not "fluff should lose to balance everytime", I wasn't backing up anyone's claims about what the numbers for Plasma or Big Shootas should be. In my opinion, the fluff is more important because that's what the game is based on... and I don't think it's impossible to balance a game around that. For example, Plasma Weapons should be considerably more powerful against all kinds of infantry than a Bolter if you were to follow the fluff, yet it wouldn't have to be unbalanced because you wouldn't be getting 4 Plasma Guns per squad. It would be a very different game I admit, and Relic decided to use Plasma to fill a traditional RTS scissor/paper/stone type of role. That's fair enough, although I think the game could have been truer to the background without diluting the tactical side. Anyway, the importance of fluff over a traditional kind of RTS balance is really a matter of opinion... that's the point I was making. Sorry to bring this off topic somewhat.
Fellas, question:
As marines, what do you do when your opponent rushed to Tier2 and got plasma while you got lotsa marines??
You melee his plasma marines to negate the damage.
Now, as orks, why are we even trying to outshoot plasma marines?? Melee them! you can have 3 orks for the cost of one plasma marine.
Or am I missing something in this discussion?
I use big shootas on 1 squad that I set to ranged and keep behind the wave of sluggas to target anything I'd like to die faster, like snipers for example.
I think the problem with that they still do more damage to Orks than a standard Bolter, yet unlike Heavy Bolters they can fire on the move. If you run from the enemy sideways, you can strafe them and give another enemy squad a broadside of Plasma. Nevermind the fact that maybe a third of the enemy squad has already been dropped on the charge.
There are currently 1 users browsing this thread. (0 members and 1 guests)
Posting Permissions
