HW2 HODs - whats needed?

[Delphy]

Hi All,

I'm thinking of getting back into HW2 modding as it seems that not much has changed in the past year or so with regards to this.

What I would need to know though is what people need from a HW2 modding tool... I'm willing to pick up HWSE2 again, so any input on where I need to go is appreciated.

Thanks,
Delphy

[Zatch]

Importing -
* *.OBJ formatted 3D models with UVW maps already applied.
* *.PSD textures.

Editing -
* Collision mesh -- as a duplicate of the ship's mesh, with the option to adjust the CM's scale relative to the original mesh (for people that want to simulate permanent shielding.)
* LOD generating -- no need for vertex editing from the end-user's standpoint, just implement some very simple optimization code to produce a couple low-poly models. Also, users should have the option of importing their own LOD meshes without generating them in HWSE2.
* Hardpoints -- Placement, naming, and orientation of hardpoints with a clear preview of each. This includes engines and latch points.
* Nav lights -- Although not essential, these are pretty similar to hardpoints except easier to implement (unless the exporting process is somehow different...)
* Ship scale -- option to display from a top-down view a comparison of your new ship's mesh with a pre-rendered image of one of the existing HW2 ships.
* Ship orientation -- so we don't fly sideways. Preferably an arrow would be placed in the preview pane to ensure that the ship is facing in the right direction.

Exporting -
* To *.HOD format.

[Delphy]

Just out of curiosity, why PSD?

[Vengence]

Speaking of which, I have maya5 installed and I am having trouble installing all the needed plugins. So far the Env. Variables seem to be right but I cannot see the Relic Tools shelf in maya.

[Delphy]

Vengeance, please keep the discussion to what you'd like to see in any tools, not problems you are having with Maya

[Alex Drake]

What Zatch said, and I'd add an addendum that the two most important things are .obj to HOD and a visual hardpoint editor. Those are (possibly) the twot hings have hindered the growth of the community the most as they are the simplest (and most vital) abilities you need to create a mod, especially if you don't have Maya. Hell, a visual hardpoint editor alone would probably make you the most popular man on the forums... again.

[Sastrei]

Generic: Anything that removes Maya from the modding equation, and makes modding HW2 as easy as you've helped make HW1 modding.

Specific: HOD converter; Hardpoint editor, like they've said.

-Stefan-

[Tyenee]

Please correct me if I am wrong but I believe that Relic have included plug-ins for Photoshop in the RDN Tools for use in texture creation. Hence ZaTcH's wish for .PSD import. But if you create your model and texture and then use 3D Exploration to convert the model into .obj (as I do) then there is no need for the .PSD import, I guess it depends upon how people do their texturing.

But as Alex said if all it does is enable you to visually add hard points and export the model to a .hod format then that would be amazing!

Quick note on ship scale, I don’t know how anyone else does this but I compare ship scale against a stock ship in max and make any necessary size changes before I export the model.

[sanityflare]

Persoanlly I just started messing around with your hw1 tool delphy and to be fair if you could make hw2 as easy to mode as you made hw1 then that would be a fantastic start for any modders.

Ohh and Vengence pm me ill show you how to install maya5 and the required plug ins for it to work proper. though i never could get that matey thing to work.

[Sastrei]

Tyenee: I do the same for the first ship, and then scale everything else against that one. I have 1.5 Meg model file now.

Maybe HWSE2 could have a quick scale function like HWSE1 did?

-Stefan-

[Viperslayer]

Yayayayayayyaa!!! Woot Woot Woot Woot Woot Woot!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

:report: :clap: :frog: :buddies: :mdance: :blow: :wowsers: :bow2: :bow2: :bow2: :bow2: :bow2:

Sorry about the smilies! But this is wonderful news!!!

Converting obj to hod.
Inserting textures to the ship.
Adding turrets, weapons, hardpointing.
docking bays....
exporting hod to obj without bugs.

And anything else that I forgot to mention!!!!



AND be able to just convert obj to hod!

AND in agreement to alex, this would make you a god!

[Axel]

Yup, visual hardpoint and docking paths editor are desperetly needed.
If you could include a few modelling tools and a UV-mapper into HWSE2, it would be nice.
Also, if you can, do not restrict the texture format just to .PSD, add .BMP and .JPG.

Glad to have you back with us, Delphy.

[Jaen-ni-rin]

Hmmm...
W00T DELPHY IS BACK !!!!!!!!!

That's nice you've come back.
First... Make the HWSE2 version which is floating around useable.
Then try to implement suggested things.

And BTW.
Is it coincidence or I seen you on some Sims2 modding site ?

[Crook]

'Behind the scenes' rigging tool. Joints don't need to be so complex, just assign where an engine(s) goes, where the gun(s) are and let the tool find the centre of the ship, make joints and assign all the hierarchy.

[OutriderVS9]

What he said >>"Converting obj to hod.
Inserting textures to the ship.
Adding turrets, weapons, hardpointing.
docking bays....
exporting hod to obj without bugs."

[Viperslayer]

Yep thats about what it should include. Maybe it should be in a 3d view not text based though. I think for some of us we need to see things visually not on text..

Text based... ehh if it is I'll just use it to convert.. not to add hardpoints and stuff. I cant do things by corridnates, and neither will the rest of the community want to use their brain.

And to answer about the PSD:

Photoshop reallllllllllllly makes great compression and usage of pixels when exporting to jpg. It really does a better job than paint and other tools. Hence it being one of the most expesinve visual art tools.

I've stopped using paint to take screenshots and now Im using photoshop.

[Locutus]

I am going to chime in and agree with the request for a visual hardpoint editer. I can use HardEd just fine, but it would be far faster with a visual editing program.

[Zatch]

Sorry for the slow reply, Delphy.

*.PSD because the Relic tools, as previously mentioned, are built for use in Photoshop, and *.PSD is the native output format for Photoshop (it preserves all of the layers modified by the plugins.) If we were to use something less powerful like a *.BMP or *.JPG we would lose all of the little details like ship stripes and whatever the HW2 shader's need for proper rendering. I could be wrong, of course, as you may know the intermediate step between *.PSD and actual, shader-recognized texture application (*.DDS is used in the *.HOD I think, though I don't have the talent to figure out the whole process.)

[Drthvdr12]

I think PSD is used because it can incorporate all the necessary image files on a ship; ie team colors, bump maps, etc; onto one file as layers.

[Accused_Raptor]

How about something to help create animations on the ship, such as madstate animations. :devil:

[Zatch]

Let's start simple and move up from there.

[bobafett]

a visual hardpoint editor is the FIRST thing that is needed (in my opinion)
anyways i agree with all: there are thousands of things needed

[Delphy]

Sastrei,

Since it's fairly trivial to include this (and it's already in HWSE2 just not active) a quick scale function would be included.

Axel / others,

Since OBJ doesn't support PSD, initially I'd probably just do BMP/JPG/PNG to the HW2 textures and then look at PSD later on.

Jaen-ni-rin,

No coincidence, I run one of the biggest Sims 2 modding sites.

Crook,

Sounds good, I'll probably do that functionality later. I need to relearn the HOD format first

Zatch,

Yeah, iirc, DDS is used in .HOD with multiple mipmaps.

Accused_Raptor,

I wont be adding animation stuff yet.

Everybody,

Seems like you all want a visual hardpoint editor. This is actually fairly simple - I could even re-use a lot of the code from the MEX editing section of HWSE1.

[bobafett]

Yuuuuuuuppy :!: :!: :!: :!:

[Talien]

I don't have any suggestions that other people haven't already said, but I do think it's pretty cool that you'd jump back in to do something like this. But just for the sake of being on topic, I do agree the biggest thing needed is an .obj to .hod converter since that seems to be the major stumbling block for most mods. There's a lot of good modelers out there but Maya is an expensive toy, so there's very few who can actually put models into HW2.

[Viperslayer]

This is AWSOME!!!!!

We all owe the community a big thanks for becoming big and active again!!! If new members, and people didnt return I dont think this would be happening right now!

[DatonKallandor]

A visual hardpoint editor would be bliss. That way people who want to start their modding career can happily add stuff to the stock models and script away with stat changes.

You would put the basic back into basic modding.


Daton

[John Sheridan]

It would also be great to be able to place capture/repair points.

[Grey_Ghost]

Dock Paths

[BmB]

Dude, hope shines in my modders heart now.

[Shipyard Nabal]

If HWSE2 realy comes out with all that, it will change modding HW2 forever.

[Alex Drake]

Delphy, and I say this as only a vet around here can; don't toy with me. If this doesn't pan out I will eat your soul... slowly.

*cracks whip* get to work! muhahahaaa

[Delphy]

Well I just brushed off the old HWSE2 code and found out I already have visual hardpoints in :P

[Alex Drake]

release it you lovable bastard!

But really, what sort of hack and slash work needs to be done to the code to release that bit as a standalone?

[Guelph]

Gosh...there's a lot of heavyweight Modders in this thread, i haven't been here all that long but would like to give my 2 cents worth....getting the ships into the game....thats the "help wanted" posts that are seen here on a regular basis.
I will acknowldge the other requests for editing hard points and dockpaths but i haven't tried the programs that are out there for that......yet.

Thanks to all for having a go at this, if i can help in anyway, just ask.

G.

[Delphy]

Alex,

Well, I'm only displaying the hardpoints at the moment - there is no editing or saving ability. HWSE2 at the moment is a previewer only - I haven't got any HOD export code so I need to re-learn all the HOD stuff. Course, you'll probably kill me when I tell you that I've had visual hardpoint code in there for a year and a half...

[Alex Drake]

..... you have 30 seconds to start running.

Serious Edit: Did Pesmontis or Pipakin leave behind the source for HardED? I think what ideally needs to be done is translate the numerical changes in HardED to changes in the visual model currently in HWSE2. it would be clunky, but howsabout hybridizing the two (in terms of interface) with some sort of option to stream those changes into HardED.

(Given that I'm talking about theoretical source code thats is most likely incompatable, this is a pipe dream, so refer to my above comments as general coding concepts rather than soemthing that could ever be implemetned). Alas, I'm a lowly C++ crapper, don't have much experience with higher level progs outside of crap to make calculations. Tho I do know how to write file encoders.

[Delphy]

Well, the way HWSE2 works will be the same as MEX files worked in HWSE1 - ie numerical changes to the edit box will automatically move the hardpoint in the 3d view.

[Alex Drake]

But is there any trace of the export code used by HardED or Shiny?

[Delphy]

Shiny? Whats that?

[Archangel of Death]

Shiny is the hardpoint editor with gui.

[ouch]

hey, Delphy how are you...

don't know if you remember me or not but I helped you debug HWSE a little bit. particularly the mad animation section.

anyway I think how you progressed HWSE should be close to how you progress HWSE2. and that is... basic stuff everyone needs first and then more extravagent items like fine tuneing texture allignment, mad animations and such.

the step after hardpointing would probably be dock paths and dock points. it seems it's pretty difficult to accomplish currently. (havent actually tried though)

and yes we definantly need a more universal approach to modeling. I personally havn't seriously modded anything because I don't have the ability to import and export models. I prefer 3D Studio Max myself. but if HWSE2 would allow you to clone turrets like HWSE then I really wouldn't care much

one thing I wished HWSE did was make an autosave backup library. that way if a file got corrupted you wouldn't lose so much.

but reguardless it's good to see a familular name.

[Talien]

.....Yes, periodic auto backups would be an EXCELLENT feature. True, I'm not a modeler myself, but everyone I know who does any kind of work with any design programs (3D modeling, drafting, etc.) is always saying how they wish they saved more often and made backups because something or other always seems to get lost or corrupted.

[Homdax]

GG Delphy!

This will certainly clean up lots of sites "Mod Tools" download sections...

[Jaen-ni-rin]

Well, the way HWSE2 works will be the same as MEX files worked in HWSE1 - ie numerical changes to the edit box will automatically move the hardpoint in the 3d view.

No cute 3D XYZ axes moving thing employed in Max or MaYA ?

[BmB]

Well, the way HWSE2 works will be the same as MEX files worked in HWSE1 - ie numerical changes to the edit box will automatically move the hardpoint in the 3d view.

include scroller arrows. like for example in 3dsmax's cordinate boxes.

but you can leave it without for the sake of ease. i'll be happy in both cases.

[judobutterfly]

I'm not sure if anyone mentioned this, but will a .btg to .hod converter be included. You know, for background creation.

[sanityflare]

Yeah I second that backgrounds tool, I can get them in using persmists tool and after filtering smoothing the bits that need converting seems to work well. So maybe just an exstension of his code but fixing the halftoned tga

[mr. WHO]

Does it mean that in future we will have a magical toys for putting new ships into HW2 without Maya 3/5 ??

I'm trying to install those damn plugins for 3 days and I have dozens of bugs (files missing, operation cannot be found etc.) and when I solve few, few new are waiting for me. it's a road trought hell.

[Delphy]

I wont be including a background creator as thats best left to another tool.