The Final Four- Small, necessary changes before Winter Assault

[BiggestMek]

I do not think the game has huge imbalances, but do think that if the small imbalances that currently exist now are not fixed prior to WA, that the whole balancing attempt of WA will be skewed on a poor base.

The following 4 items alone NEED to be changed. All the other balance complaints are small/debatable in comparision to these fairly commonly accepted issues. If these can change, DoW will see a vastly more balanced playing field.

-Defiler
-Chaos Sorcerer
-Fleet of Foot
-Warp Spider


Big changes and long lists are bad. They will only open up new problems (eg, 1.3 fixed 1.2 problems and made new ones).

Again, small changes....toy with costs, times, and armor penetrations...nothing spectacular.

[Tiresias]

Before the flammage begins it's nice to see someone who doesn't think the whole game is broken.

I agree that thos 4 are issues that definately need dealing with. However I would also like changes made that would perhaps lengthen or at least give greater options to 1v1s. Currently it's who has the fastest rush, and rarely is there more than 1 rush that ytou can feasibly pull off.

[Saiith]

Actually I think the only things on that list that NEED to be changed are Defiler and WS. I think every race needs strenghts and weaknesses, and FoF and Sorc can easily remain in the state they are in currently if other things are balanced out. Like the Ork Tech tree and SM / Chaos need a bit of tweaking in their matchup vs. Eldar

[TBS]

I dont suppose you guys could come to some kind of consensus as to what fixes should be implemented to fix these issues and then update the first post with those fixes? A short, simple list of fixes would be an interesting alternative to Korbah's impressive but massive mod.

[Asuka]

I think the only 2 parts of the game that need a fix are the Defiler and WS.

The Defiler needs the auto cannon damage made a bit weaker maybe 20% max vs all since is doing a bit to much damage to every thing.

WS need 2 tiny nerfs first lower the range they can teleport and 2 about a 5% damage nerf VS light armor and they will be fixed.

I think that would fix it might need a tad of tweaking to get it just right but other than that should be fine.

The CS is has to be used right to allow it to seem as strong as it is and FOF needs a lot of work to allow your troops to use and not die.

[santiago4ever]

Things that needs fixing:

1. Defiler. Nerf the bastards AC good.
2. Ork vehicles moved forward slightly (one banner)
3. Ws slightly nerfed damage.
4. Units no longer heal while WoTE is in effect (stop that freakishly mad lib + apoth combo). I want to see the bastards keel over once WoTE is over. Either mad healing or not dying, can't have both at the same time.
5. Units no longer heal while FJ is in effect. same as 4.
6. FoF cost upped with 50 power and takes longer to research.

I think that's as short as I want to make the list... And all of those has been implemented in ProMod btw ^.^

[Korbah]

lol guys fixing DoW cannot be summarised in 4 lines....if you REALLY want DoW fixed prepared to address each and every unit/upgrade in the game systematically one after the other rebalancing from the ground up.

[frenchjesus]

I dont suppose you guys could come to some kind of consensus as to what fixes should be implemented to fix these issues and then update the first post with those fixes? A short, simple list of fixes would be an interesting alternative to Korbah's impressive but massive mod.

Sadly we cant do that because balance is primary a matter of design, and because those issues are linked to a lot of others things. Each people have his own advice on the use of each unit and on the flow of game's dynamic, the only thing we can achieve is a compromise between all those people.

[mlai]

Without going into details of game design, of which there will never be a consensus, I think this forum community has largely agreed on these things which needs fixing:

1. Defiler
2. Orks 1.3
3. Bugs such as AoE D-cannon and Heavy Flamer.

I don't think there is an agreement on the other things such as Sorc, WS and FoF. Because there is a significant opinion that if Defilers and Orks are balanced, then the other things can balance themselves.

Sorc was annoying like BM but wasn't a game-breaking issue in 1.2 - because Defiler wasn't OP.

WS was annoying but Orks can still win - because Orks weren't completely broken.

FoF helped the guard rush, was a problem but at least Scouts had some Oomph.

[Serverbot]

santiago4ever

Things that needs fixing:

1. Defiler. Nerf the bastards AC good.
2. Ork vehicles moved forward slightly (one banner)
3. Ws slightly nerfed damage.
4. Units no longer heal while WoTE is in effect (stop that freakishly mad lib + apoth combo). I want to see the bastards keel over once WoTE is over. Either mad healing or not dying, can't have both at the same time.
5. Units no longer heal while FJ is in effect. same as 4.
6. FoF cost upped with 50 power and takes longer to research.

I think that's as short as I want to make the list... And all of those has been implemented in ProMod btw ^.^

1. I agree
2. Ummm, you mean one less or one more banner for vehicle? You are crazy iif you pick the second!
3. Yes slightly, but noticable enough that it makes a diffferance. 5-10% ?
4. Space Marines flying in mid air with WOTE are not so bad once you get the hang of it Apocs just heal too much, tone that down
5. This wouldn't make much of a differance for Ork boyz juiced up will die right away since they are being hailed by Bolters and WS fire
6. Req would be a better idea, but yea were on the same level.

[Crunk]

Defiler ---- Great vehicle, artillery, melee, versitile unit. Hes too cheap, i would up requisition and power cost

Sorcerer---- Cool hero, kicks infantry ass. But, He comes back too fast, make him come back slower a la Big Mek 1.2-1.3

Warpspiders --- Too easy to mass, Mirror is silly, need to cost more food (supply) and more power

FoF ---- Too good at start of game, necessary later, therefore make it available with a soul shrine, or if thats too slow just make it cost 100/100

Fighting Juice --- Make it an upgrade at the POG (a cheap one), also give them an upgrade to increase healing aura effect.

WOTE -- increase Req and Power cost, increase build time, reduce duration of effect by 10%

For diversity of play, I think that flamers should be more viable in competative play. So i say make them do more physical damage, but be affected by cover.

[Rapier]

There's no real point in fixing warpspiders...

I can understand why many ork players want them fixed (as it's all you ever see). But any good Ork player (and any honest Eldar player) will tell you that if they removed the Warpspiders completely, Ork wound still be screwed over.

Ork have difficulties damaging units because dancing > orks. The best units in the game for dancing are Scouts. (Fast speed, no cover penalty, so they can run away, turn and shoot) Scouts have been nerfed so it takes them quite a while to win this this. (Still technically 1 scout squads > any number of basic sluggas ). The second best dancing unit in the game is EVERY ELDAR INFANTRY except Warpsiders. This should be sufficient to dash your hopes of balanced ork vs eldar, with or without warpspiders, but if you need more.

Guardians get entangle, so even if you were much better at dancing Eldar can stop you moving.

Brightlances own Waaah banners, for cost, even with a noob player that manages to lose a brightlance per banner (and no Eldar player I've ever seen managed to be that bad). Brightlances, counter all Ork vehicles and buildings, and come out earlier than even the trukk, they cost less than all but the trukk. The counter to Brightlances that ork get is Nobz with power claws, and heroes.

Eldar pay less for lp and lp2. Eldar LP2 is better than Ork LP2 in every way. Eldar get access to anti-Lp troops (DR outrange Lps, brightlances), Earliar, also those DR and even WS out range ork guns on there buildings so, tbh, I'd rather lose the ork guns and have more hp.

Even the lowly (and pointless) Vyper, is better than a Wartrack, the lowly and pointless vyper was better than a wartrack in every way in 1.2, except how soon it came out, which was fixed by 1.3.

Ork have no answer to Fireprisms, at all. Infantry don't shoot, tbs can't melee it because it can jump and outrun them, Killer kans can't catch it. It WTFpwns, Ork bases.

D-cannons, even with friendly fire... eh, you can teleport advance those bastards and it takes only 3 shots to kill a boyz hut with one, it takes a whole 4 to kill the Orky HQ.

In short, with the nerfs to tracks, the only single thing orks had which they could get before Eldar got the better (usually cheaper, or made up for by better economy) counter, was removed.

It's of little comfort to know that Eldar would have trouble beating an army of powerclaw nobz backed by tanks, kans and a squiggy (they don't have any real tier 3 stuff, there main tier 3 attraction is an Avatar that lets them get more tier 1/2 stuff ~ and thank God they don't).

Lets forget until winter assault, the possibility of Orks being playable and concentrate on fixing defilers (a damage nerf, hp back to 1.2). Sorc spam (Chaos need it agianst Eldar, but vs C/SM/Ork it's too strong imo. Apothecary + WOTE super army (again, too good vs C/SM/Ork). Plasma guns (Once again too good vs C/SM/Ork ~ it should be more forgiving for the former two, and ork really need help ^^).

Eldar FoF, Eldar's massive economy, the fact that in all situations throughout the release of dow, op factors of the other races were NEEDED to fight Eldar. (The argument for not changing Sorc for example, or plasma, is, because Eldar are too hard to beat as is, and would be impossible without op factors). Ork needed wartracks to have a chance in hell, and they were nerfed (I freely admit they were too good vs other Orks and C/SM).

I think I sound a bit bitter ^.^, I can see why korbah reached the conclusion that you really need to start from scratch, and I hope Relic makes good use of the opportunity that WA is giving them to rebalance tech trees, comparative unit strengths ect. I have faith still, even with how broken I find my favourite race, I still enjoy playing Ork in DoW more than any Race in, for example warcraft3 (where you have practically no build order choice except what hero for 'any' race ~ except Night Elves that is).

[Tiresias]

Here's one change I think could change game dynamics for the better

Inrease the HPs of ALL buildings drastically. Now early game rushes are unable to kill you off anywhere near as easily.

[Korbah]

.....so we can all look forward to the inevitable plat spam or WotE plasma mass??

DoW will not be balanced until it is torn down and rebuilt unit by unit with a set and designated design process following a thematic approach. While its all well and good to talk about the 4 biggest points addressing these will reveal at least the same amount of deficiencies....the chain of fix and more problems will continue until you decide to "bugger it" and redo the lot from the ground up.

That being said, redoing balance doesn't necessarily mean DoW won't play like DoW....its entirely feasable to retain the core elements and matchups in the gameplay. What is desirable is to balance out units, add a more cost/benefit decision making process and vary the number of viable strats.

If you look at the true greats of the RTS genre they're characterised by a) balanced units b) variability in effective strats and c) cost/benefit decision making. DoW is capable of having such elements however, they're currently underdeveloped and won't be fixed by a hotfix.

[Tiresias]

.....so we can all look forward to the inevitable plat spam or WotE plasma mass??

point, but at least we'd have more time in the game to do stuff...

You may be right Korbah, but should we stumble on some magic bullet that will balance everything in one dynamic... unlikely if not almost impossible, but don' rule it out.

[Rapier]

Tiresais, I want rushes to be able to win, so that if I'm playing someone weaker than me, or stronger than me, it doesn't drag out needlessly. Also I wouldn't say rushing is a bad element to exist (the problem is more likely to be that there's only limited available early game units.. so rushes invariably look the same and get countered the same way).

I would however like buildings to scale up with tiers more. I want a base in tier 3 that can survive a lascannon predator, so that there's room for some jostling and skirmishing at that stage.

Currently in DoW tier 1 unit can destroy a base, tier 2units get better at it (bl's missiles/rockets, vehicles). Tier 3 units, can demolish it in seconds (power claw nobz, lascannon predators...)

It's a preference though; I want base defence to scale up with tiers so that I get the same amount of fighting and leeway tier 3 as tier 1. Other people might be happy with the build up to tier 3, one battle ends it, style.

[Tiresias]

Rushes should be able to win, but all rushes should be counterable somehow. Anyway you're probably right.

[Rapier]

Er, sure, rushes should be counterable. and Ideally, counterable with the standard build.

By which I mean, if I do a tech build (low troop output), and you rush, you should win. If i can do a tech build and hold you off then base defence is too strong.

if However, I do a "standard" build, your rush shouldn't be able to kill me, but only inflict casualties (dependant upon relative skill the rusher will come out ahead/or behind, but neither will necessarily die).

If I do a rush build, and you do MORE of a rush build (an all out rush build) we should end up clashing in the middle and you should win, however if you fail to win, then you should be unable to then recover, and I should win.

If I do an all out rush build and so do you it should cancel out in the same way as if we both did a tech build.

This pattern should be applicable throughout the game, however it certainly isn't the case in tier 2/3 in dow.

[apettican]

I dont suppose you guys could come to some kind of consensus as to what fixes should be implemented to fix these issues and then update the first post with those fixes? A short, simple list of fixes would be an interesting alternative to Korbah's impressive but massive mod.

Check out the lordy mod.

[Slow_Runner]

For the Orks I would welcome some form of better AV (cheapers TBs perhaps?), a reduction in BM build time (the bugger takes longer than a Warboss to build with all upgrades) and a reasonable use for Trakks (with rokkits they take forever, and still die very quick to missiles, if you want big shootas, you get Trukss that are cheaper, faster to build and com out two Banners earlier).

-The Defiler needs some work, a damage reduction and a small cost/build time increase would be good.
-The sorceror is also too spammable. Increase in buildtime ought to do it.
-The Warp Spiders need some tweaking. A damage nerf against infantry or light buildings would be very welcome and I think a squad limit of 6 spiders (+exarch) per squad sounded like an interesting proposition. Spiders just cannot be a counter for everything Orky (barring Nob leaders) pre Tier 3. Now they demolish buildings with ease and regular boyz will never reach them before falling prey to their deathspinners. Even Trakks and Trukks fall quickly to grenades (unless the Ork manages to spam 5+ of them).
-Eldar economy needs some sort of fix (LP cash reward from 50 to 40 would be a good start, followed by more expensive/weaker generators, Ork gen is 750hp/150req while Eldar gen is 1200hp/135req).
-Ork LPs could use something, because at the moment they are by far the worst LPs in the game. Increased range is kind of cool, but it doesn't make up for the ridiculous frailness ~1000 hps provide.
-With the Ork uppers, I think Chaos and Marines might need a little something as well (although I'd like to see something done to plasma too, be it smaller range, higher cost or damage nerf to regular infantry ). A bit cheaper generators (155/160) might be nice...


The main thing is the Defiler. That is the most glaring imbalance at the moment. Eldar dominate the ladder too much, so something needs to be done with them too. I'm not sure what that is, but tackling the economy would be a good start...

[Scribble]

Defilers: Give their autocannon a similar damage to the Hellfire Dreads assualt cannon: 50DPS to light 35 to heavy infantry and 25 odd against light buildings and vehicles. Negligable damage to anything heavier.

Warpsiders: Theres a lot of possible changes that could be made here, The only one that really -needs- to be aplied is a savage nerf to their damage against buildings. Personally I favour reducing their range and increasing their pop cap.

The Choas Scorcorer just needs a 30-50% build time increase.

Fleet of foot: really only an issue in 1v1: I would increase its cost to 100/50 and double its research time.

[testthewest]

There are 2 things that make RTS games fun and interesting. Micro and strategic options.

DoW dont want to be a microfest and thats fine, but it also lacks strategic options. No, I dont mean unit choices and stuff. I mean look at SC (just for this matter): If I´m a bit behind, I can try a psi/lurker/dark Templar-drop to attack his economy. I can do cliffdrops (a good example where terrain mattered more even without cover boni) I can try to go mass air or stealth.
In DoW, there is nearly no trick you can pull off vs (lets just say for this example) Mass SM or DR with BL (especially on maps like VoK).
No how to change that? I say: make terrain matter more. Make more different terrain typs!! Like high ground, or forests, swamp and stuff like that. Make it easilier to hold certain positions on the battlefield vs the whole army of the opponent, so that you can afford to attack on multible fronts, without the opponent just walking in your base and finishing it.

[HaXxorIzed]

Wote doesn't need all these suggested fixes that everyone keeps going on about. Just make the troops that use it -50% speed.

Then the counter for WOTE is simple. Artillery to knock them over, then run.

[White_Pointer]

You forgot the most important one.

Ork LP2's.

Please, either give them their 1.2 range back, or increase their HP to be very close to equal (if not equal) to the HP of the SM/CSM equivalent.

White_Pointer

[Korbah]

+200hp and 28 range solves all issues with ork LP2's

[haniblecter]

I dont have any more problems with warpspiders, I just range them when I have nob leaders.

I thought this has been squashed by the Deen strat?

[Inst]

Nerfing ac to oblivion is the dumbest idea.
Nerf by 27 percent first against light infantry, 40 percent again against structures.
Nerf build time to 59 seconds.
Nerf ac damage in general by 25 percent if you nerf hp back to old value, 35 percent if you keep current hp.
Being able to use ac is unit identity.
Chaos sorc is fine, just get standard anti spell anti morale equip, fof 50 power cost is a great idea, but may not be sufficient, 75 pow may be better.
I'd prefer to nerf ws to 4 cap and dps to 21.

[DoctorX]

I do not think the game has huge imbalances, but do think that if the small imbalances that currently exist now are not fixed prior to WA, that the whole balancing attempt of WA will be skewed on a poor base.

I'll second that. DoW doesn't have huge imbalances, although I doubt its a broken base that'll stuff up Winter Assault. We have no real idea what WA is going to really do, other than some tantalising PR. Dunno 'bout you guys, but I'm in DoW for the long haul - I'm not so desperate that I can't wait for a bit for it to appear.

Big changes and long lists are bad. They will only open up new problems (eg, 1.3 fixed 1.2 problems and made new ones).

Again, small changes....toy with costs, times, and armor penetrations...nothing spectacular.

I agree again. I'd leave the actual fine details up to the people balancing the thing. Who knows what small tweak(s) will actually prove to be the best balancer? What seemed completely overblown in one version might turn out to be completely okay when the extras in WA are put together, or some other item is adjusted. I trust Relic to produce their own patch, not only would they know their own numbers, they wrote all the rules for them as well. Patch 1.3 was a good bugfix and added new features, in spite of some of the balance issues. I trust them to make a patch useful in all situations, not just placating the 1v1 Automatch pro's.

Apart from one or two things, most of the oh-so-terrible imbalances seem to have come exclusively from people who only seem to play Automatch 1v1. Even the slightest differences seem to be magnified into terrifying injustices by people desperate to make their games as short and single minded as they possibly can to climb the ladder. I'm not against 1v1 Automatch at all - I just don't see it as being the only "proper" way to play the game. Anyway:

- Defiler, definitely.
- Warp Spiders. Small tweak, whatever it is. But its no more scary to this Ork player than a wall of Heavy Bolters or Plasma.
- FoF... since everyone outruns Orks anyway, I've yet to see this as a problem.
- Ork Build tree, definitely. Its as hard to play Ork building up in most situations as it is easy to play Chaos with Defilers or Eldar with Warp Spiders. But my feeling is you'd need one, perhaps two, little changes to unkink the Orks and make all the other issues with them seem minor by comparison.
- Chaos Sorceror? This guy feels like he could easily be balanced if something else was. And really, for this Ork, he's no worse than Orbital Bombardment, Librarians, or the Eldar WMD spells.

[Inst]

The problem with the game being optimized for pro players is that if you have a pro player play someone else, he's going to win because he won't let you suicide tech.

[White_Pointer]

+200hp and 28 range solves all issues with ork LP2's

Those changes sound pretty good. I was thinking either one or the other (large range increase or large HP increase) but a happy medium between the two sounds pretty good. Although personally I'd go for 30 range if it's only a 200HP increase.

Regardless, something needs to be done. This, I believe, is the backbone to all of ork's problems in 1.3.

I dont have any more problems with warpspiders, I just range them when I have nob leaders.

I thought this has been squashed by the Deen strat?

As good as Deen's strat is, unfortunately it's been proven to only work if the Eldar goes pure Spiders. If the Eldar throws in Guardians + Farseer with a quick tech to soul shrine (entangle + grenades) the shooting strat doesn't work. And almost all higher level players use a combination of guardians/farseer/spiders, unfortunately.

- Ork Build tree, definitely. Its as hard to play Ork building up in most situations as it is easy to play Chaos with Defilers or Eldar with Warp Spiders. But my feeling is you'd need one, perhaps two, little changes to unkink the Orks and make all the other issues with them seem minor by comparison.

You're right, you only really need two small changes to the ork tech tree to fix it.

1. Fix ork LP2's
2. Bring rokkits and wartraks down 1 banner

Then you just need to worry about fixing the actual units :P

- Chaos Sorceror? This guy feels like he could easily be balanced if something else was. And really, for this Ork, he's no worse than Orbital Bombardment, Librarians, or the Eldar WMD spells.

The problem with the Sorceror isn't his spells, per se. It's the fact that his HP is so low, and he's so cheap and quick to build, that he himself, and his spells, are spammable. Caste chains of torment and doombolt once, run into the enemy fire and get him killed quickly, rebuild him, caste spells again. It's a lot faster than waiting for his spells to recharge. Just kill him and rebuild him. A couple of casts of those spells and he's paid for himself multiple times over. The other heroes with those spells you mentioned...FC, FS, Librarian...they all have a lot of HP, and are quite slow and expensive to build, so spamming with those spells isn't really a problem.

He's easily fixed. You either:

1. Increase his initial build time by a bit but not too much, then increase his build time in gradual increments every time you rebuild him (up to a maximum, it shouldn't keep going and going :P).
2. Only give him chains of torment as a starting spell, and make doombolt researchable (at the sac circle, so you can't build him at the same time). Then increase his build time with every upgrade, a la what they did to the BM in 1.3.

White_Pointer

[DoctorX]

The problem with the game being optimized for pro players is that if you have a pro player play someone else, he's going to win because he won't let you suicide tech.

That goes for any game. Good players will wipe you out purely on the basis of their dancing, shortcuts, unit skills - let alone actual unit selection. In a game like DoW with its strong emphasis on tactics, stances, and timing, making endless comparisons of unit x's stats with unit y's only gives you part of the big picture - unless there's something really out of whack. I've played lots of games where someone with half my economy flattened me because they just happened to have the right counters to my build at the time. In-game I'll feel shafted, but most times its "omg what was I thinking?!" when I finally look at the replay.

I'm also finding in DoW that some units I thought were useless really come into their own if you mix them with other units: e.g. Cultists rock once you get them on Ranged with grenades firing over the heads of a couple of Chaos Marines. These "useless" units don't even have to kill enemy units themselves in order for you to triumph. They just have to stall long enough for your own counters to get going. In fact, I'm finding more and more mixing unit types seems and deploying your different squads at the right moment can turn a battle almost like flicking a switch. You tend to use less guys with more effect. The hard part is actually having the skill to set it up and pull it off.

[Rapier]

2. Only give him chains of torment as a starting spell, and make doombolt researchable. Then increase his build time with every upgrade, a la what they did to the BM in 1.3.

I think they should either rethink this decession, or make it apply to all heroes. It's silly that BM is the only hero who's upgrades (which werne't changed in cost at all) now come with negative effects too.

I have no objection to the mechanic which says, Bm with more spells + better = takes longer to buy/replace. But compared to all the other caster heroes, or all the other heroes. It seems very unfair and not a good way to balance him out.

So I would like them to make this either a universial system, or not utilise it at all. (tbh, I prefer the system and want it applied to all heroes).

[TheDeadlyShoe]

Not the Librarian, surely. He Of The Long Build Time.

[Sterling]

I'd think all build times would have to be tweaked to account for it.

[_X_]

I think some minor tweaking would suffice, I don't think the whole games balancing is broken by a long shot, I rather liked the balancing, comming from some other RTS that were (broken) the 4 on the short list is fine except maybe # 3

[BiggestMek]

As I really need to change my state of mind right now, I carefully read and re-read all the suggestions in this post, hoping to either change what is a minimal list, or to add specifics to it.

However, as you can see, there isn't going to be a popular answer to any of the major issues. The bigger an issue is, the more far-connecting and complex the perspectives people will have on it and how to fix it.

Though I like to agree with TBS more than I like to disagree, I think expecting the community to agree on anything regarding balance change is probably unreasonable. However, reading this forum since it was first opened easily reveals the issues the players want addressed, even if our notions of how to address them are different.

Personally, I think the QA testers should fiddle with 3 or so balance mods, each making small number changes, and then try to fine-tune what seems to be the best. As long as the changes are minimal and in the direction that everyone seems to agree on, I cannot see how things will not get better.

From there, inserting WA units and changes will be much more on target.

[TBS]

you're probably right, I just thought it would be nice if we could have a thread where we discussed things and say 75% of people agreed on something and at the end we'd produced a small list of changes that would improve game balance and wouldnt require several months of testing at Relic and THQ. Maybe its silly but I like to be productive on occasion

[Chris]

Although personally I'd go for 30 range if it's only a 200HP increase.

Agreed. with 30 vs 35 range heavy bolters will still be able to out-range them if the marine wants to go for a really agressive push but it does give orks some added protection. Also with 30 range plasma guns/WS won't be able to bring down an ork LPs/banners without taking any return damage.

[psychodil]

Yes, when I first saw the balance notes on the 1.3 patch I was hoping for range 30 for those very reasons. To have the same range but half the HP of a SM LP is a joke.