Unit Caps

[No Surrender]

I hope unit caps won't work like they did in DoW with separate vehicle and infantry caps. I want it to be like Cataclysm where you had the choice of building a swarm of fighters or cap ships. In other words, I want to be able to build a completely infantry army that is still competative, or a mechanized brigade of tanks with a small detachment of infantry for support. What do you guys think? Would it be ballanced?

[Magus]

I would hope its no unit caps, just "We have Companies B and C of the 35th Infantry and Company F of the 88th Tanks in reserves..."

Since thats probably not going to happen, I would take a middle ground: A certain amount of Infantry cap, a certain amount of Armor cap, and a certain amount of miscellaneous reserves cap, which can go toward either. Forces some balance in forces, but more flexible than hard caps in each.

However, as I read it, Tanks in CoH are going to make tanks in DoW look like poo, so they may have to limit them, be it in cost, cost scaling, or cap, to stop them from dominating the battlefield.

[TheDeadlyShoe]

I imagine there will be some form of unit caps.

Having an all-infantry army competitive is really a no no. Advancing against MGs and the like ought to be extremely difficult without tanks.

[Aces_High]

I don't think an entirely infantry army will be feasible either. Perhaps artillery/airstrikes could pick up the slack in the absence of armor. But that is not completely infantry, technically (I guess it depends on your definition No Surrender).

And I'm inclined to agree that the unit caps will be similar to DoW if not identical. Tanks will not be easily massed, and it seems the best way to knock out vehicles in general will be to bring your own the fight.

However that is not to say I would like unit caps like that. It would be a lot of fun if it worked like No Surrender described. Perhaps if infantry and armor heavy 'builds' had their own strengths and weaknesses they could play off of one another. For example armor heavy armies would excel on open fields and would be very fast moving, but would get bogged down in urban areas because of the way infantry can dig in and easily ambush vehicles.

[The Preacher]

Early interviews and previews have hinted that the total number of units in a CoH "army" will be less than DoW. Whether they do this with unit caps, or some other method is still unknown, but I think we should expect some form of a cap.

[Homdax]

Granted some form of unit Caps, but the whole point of infantry is to have "a lot".
Thats a quote, not my invention. But I support it.
The DoW unit cap is ridiculous when it comes to infantry. Should be double, because men are cheap, and machines are not. That is true about all armies, make the calculus: what is the cost of an M1 Abrams and split that with the cost of infantry. I do not have the numbers but 100 men per tank? Or maybe 50. I dont know. But that is a realistic Unit Cap approach.

[Valdarez]

In the Developer interview on GameSpot, they said the unit limit should be roughly the same as WarHammer 40k: Dawn of War, or just a little under it. Anyone know what the unit limit was in DoW?

[Agdune]

Ouch... in DoW the unit cap was 20 infantry (for the space marines, at any rate); enough for 10 units of standard infantry. Though that sounds like a lot, and looks like a lot in DoW, I can't say that I feel too happy about that count... I was actually (naively ) hoping that there would be a less abstract means of limiting the numbers of soldiers, such as simply making the higher tier units really expensive, and proportionally more devastating than the grunts... (though yes, only when deployed right. Tiger tanks never did too well against infantry ambushes, etc)

[eor-l)arknes]

Having an all-infantry army competitive is really a no no. Advancing against MGs and the like ought to be extremely difficult without tanks.

what are you saying?

it only take 1 guy to throw a grenade under a tank.

then the tank explodes and everyone inside is most likely dead.

[Agdune]

Except, as far as I know, standard issue infantry grenades (fragmentation grenades) aren't too effective against armoured vehicles, and these armoured vehicles don't too often explode unless with a damn fine reason (ie: a shell to the fuel tank/ammunition reserves). A few chunks of iron aren't going to do that, even if they manage to get through the bottom layer of armour.

...so nyah

[Valdarez]

In the Developor Interview they said they aren't going for exact realism regarding the battles. For example, infantry will be able to take down tanks, which is extremely unrealistic.

[pinkyclown]

I hope you can Chang the Unit Caps for online so you can have a huge battle or a very small 1

[Moe]

it only take 1 guy to throw a grenade under a tank.

then the tank explodes and everyone inside is most likely dead.

You mean, the guy tries to advance on the tank and gets cut down by the coaxial MG or the turret gun. Provided he somehow survives that, he throws a grenade under the tank, which probably would only scratch the armor a little, and then he gets cut down by the tank gunners.

There's also a matter of range, a grenade can be thrown, what, thirty meters maybe? The main guns on a tank fire shells dozens of times as far as that, and even though one might argue that those shells wouldn't be used against infantry, the machine guns can still kill people at ranges far in excess of anyone's grenade throw radius.

[n0z3k1ll3r]

The DoW unit cap is ridiculous when it comes to infantry. Should be double, because men are cheap, and machines are not. That is true about all armies, make the calculus: what is the cost of an M1 Abrams and split that with the cost of infantry. I do not have the numbers but 100 men per tank? Or maybe 50. I dont know. But that is a realistic Unit Cap approach.

Using Chaos as an example, you can field 6 Predator Tanks and just over 110 infantrymen. So it's not as far of as it could be, about 20 infantry per tank.

Also you have to understand that vehicles in WW2 encompass a heck of a lot more than just tanks, theres APCs, SPGs, Mobile AA, trucks, etc. Theres a heck of a lot of vehicles used all up.

[DatonKallandor]

In an urban environment an all-infantry army could be viable. Bazooka (or equivalent) equipment squads against vehicles. The demolition equiped squads to blow up walls in order to flank positions. Snipers to take care of the dug in MG-Nests.


Daton

[eor-l)arknes]

You mean, the guy tries to advance on the tank and gets cut down by the coaxial MG or the turret gun. Provided he somehow survives that, he throws a grenade under the tank, which probably would only scratch the armor a little, and then he gets cut down by the tank gunners.

There's also a matter of range, a grenade can be thrown, what, thirty meters maybe? The main guns on a tank fire shells dozens of times as far as that, and even though one might argue that those shells wouldn't be used against infantry, the machine guns can still kill people at ranges far in excess of anyone's grenade throw radius

You sneak up on a tank(from the left or right) if its alone it wouldnt be hard. WW2 tanks had almost no armor underneath them. they had a weak spot which is right underneath it. if you had the right grenade the tank would go down.

[DatonKallandor]

What you are thinking of isnt a grenade but a det-pack. C4 or the WW2 equivalent.


Daton

[Stefan]

Or Grenade Clusters, which were often used as a makeshift heavy explosive. In addition standard infantry squads would often have magnetic mines, panzerfausts, rifle grenades and the like.

To my knowledge, at the ranges your looking at in this game (probably like 50M or less) Heavy Machineguns wouldnt necessarly dominate infantry based battles. A standard 9 man infantry squad can put out as much fire as a heavy tripod placed machine gun at that kind of range. Heavy Machine guns really shine over distance, where their accuracy/firepower will really surpass squad small arms.

[Seraphim2150]

Taking out a tank with a frag grenade is easy if you can get close enough

Anyone played Mercenaries? With the "Action Hyjacks"?Jump on tank and through a grenade through the hatch

[ionfish]

This is why tank crews generally don't leave hatches open.

[The Collector]

Or you have a guy manning a pintle and have tanks cover each other. When you enter a city, you "button up" and pull in the hatch, and have some other tank or a M40 "Duster" scrub your hull of stupid idiot soldiers.

I hope we get the M40. Can't say no to Bofors 40mm automatic cannon...

[Void]

I would like something of a Cata aproach to unit caps.

[Rohassis]

It would be good to allow infantry to be able to pop the tank's hatch and throw grenade(s) in to disable the tank, ala Saving Private Ryan end scene This would allow tanks to be less useful (possibly useless?) in urban fighting maps. As we do know, most tank battles look place in open land, and not in cities.

Getting up and close to the tank will be near impossible in open fields, but it should be do-able in urban scenes.