a lament for PC space sims

[jranak]

I am a fan of strategy games. Empire Earth, CNC, Homeworld... suffice to say I enjoy sending my customized legions of death to crush the enemy like the bug he is...!

*ahem*

Anyway, I was reading an article (very interesting read part 1 2 3) about Tachyon: The Fringe in its heyday, when dozens of pilots from several clans could be online at a given moment, vying for supremacy. It was like a whole different world that existed online. Within a clan there was geniune camradiere as they riddled eachother with bullets. Don't get me wrong-- Homeworld will always be my favorite. And yet...

... I find myself yearning for pwnage on a much more personal level, without having to worry about the big picture. My flying skills verses their's. Nothing beats the feeling of blowing the other guy out of the sky.

So maybe I'm wrong here, but I've noticed a dropoff in the number of games produced recently in this genre, almost as if Freespace 2 was the end-all, be-all of original multiplayer space sims. Does that seem odd? It seems to me that there should be more, especially since computers are a lot faster than they were back in '99. (I'm imagining a space sim with HW2's scale and/or gfx. Probably would need more detailed ships but, mmmmm...) But...there aren't any.

It seems like 1998-2001 was when this genre was really popular, while FPSs are popular now. Anyone else notice this? Are there any new ones coming out soon? I'm sure there are other games like this, but a few solid, original, space sims would be nice...

--j_k

[A176]

http://www.freeallegiance.org/

[Iamme]

freelancer?

[Kryopsis]

I am with you, buddy. I love space sims but haven't played anything worthy since iWar 2.


Freelancer is a space diablo clone. Not a very good one either.

[voidlore]

Yeah, it really is too bad. However, a lot of the newer FPS engines could be used to make some pretty decent space-sim mods. If you've played AS-Mothership in UT2004, that's vaguely what I'm getting at...

[Qwaar-Jet]

Freelancer is a space diablo clone. Not a very good one either.

Freelancer is one of the best games i've played in 5 years.And it's certainly up there with the all time greats as well.

[Retroboy]

Freelancer had its moments, but it's too cartoony and way too shallow with respect to the "dynamic universe" bit. Had some really nice music though.

I think one of the biggest problems with the genre was that the absolutely superb FreeSpace 2 didn't sell that well, and a lot of gaming companies took their signal from its relative failure. It just doesn't seem like there's a really marketable appetite for good space sims out there.

What I'd really like to see is a single-player version of Eve Online.

[edit: here's one in the works - "Darkstar One". It's by Ascaron, and their stuff isn't generally super-high quality, but I guess we'll have to wait and see what it's like later.

X3 is also due soon. ]

-- Retro

[n0z3k1ll3r]

Freelancer is great with a few mods, Evolutions being one that springs to mind.

[Rent-a-Zilla]

We discussed the lack of space sims last year - LINK

(I'm not attempting to derail/kill the thread - I just think the OP should read it)

[Tiresias]

Yes, it's so sad that the space sim is mostly dead, the x series is still going...

[Nurizeko]

Tachyon: the fringe completed me, its a shame it died off, if it was given a bit more attention by novalogic, and remained fairly popular, it could have owned but.....ive come to learn novalogic are pretty bad so...

[Riess]

Tachyon was great, I liked it even more than Freespace 2, which was a fantastic game itself. Pity it died a horrible death, but hey, shit happens. [/bitter]

I'm hoping for X3, but yes, as we observed here several times, there's far less space games out there than we'd hoped there would be, and even less good ones.

There's many, but just not enough gamers out there who'd buy such a thing, so companies will leave the genre and rather crank out more modern times FPS and fantasy RPGs.

[Kryopsis]

Indeed. Unfortunately today's market's all halo clones and MMOs.

[Dan Van Crone]

gg A176 - this Alliegiance thing looks interesting. I'm signing up.

[boolybooly]

Sure, anything spacey is absent from the drawing board. Galactic 4X is the same.

Its all gritty grunty ground forces now!

[Retroboy]

Not quite true, Booly. There's a couple 4x games that are currently in the pipe, although they're not from leading-edge publishers. I'll research tonight and see if I can find 'em.

-- Retro

[n0z3k1ll3r]

The Space Empires series is one, soon entering it's 5th incarnation. www.malfador.com

[The Preacher]

My complaint with most space sims is that they almost always turn into "you against the world" games. Personally, I think the games should be more squad based, and enemies should get "smarter" and harder to fly against rather than always facing wave after wave of enemy space craft. I guess I'd like to see a "Rainbow Six" style space sim instead of a "Doom 3" style game like we normally get.

[Retroboy]

I'd agree with Preach. Many missions in FreeSpace 2 had you racking up at least a dozen kills in order to even barely beat the mission, and your wingmen rarely ever survived the first wave of enemies. I still recall the "take the Sathanas main guns out" mission, when you're in one of the most heavily armored ships in the game, and you dive in with 3 wingmen. Two minutes later, your wingmen have completely disappeared.

A good balanced space sim would have you getting one, maybe two, kills a mission.

-- Retro

[MusedMark]

Freespace 2 was fantastic. i loved the plot and the immersion in the game that it gave me. Luckily, a new lease of life has been breathed into FS2 in the shape of the Babylon 5 (freeware total conversion mod)...

Erm, Star Fury's!! Shadows!! Best played while eating Garibaldi's

[boolybooly]

Retro, linkys gimme gimme, I am reduced to playing MoO3 (+patch and megamod) though I still havent finished IWar2.

Have you seen Free Orion (wikipedia page) ?

[jranak]

A176: Allegiance looks cool, I might sign up.

Rent-a-Zilla-- thanks for the link; the thread looks interesting.

Two pages; I'm pleasantly surprised Along with the article I linked, this post was partially inspired by watching the trailer for Ace Combat Zero... up to this point, I've never played an RTS that generates that "w000000000000t!" feeling, y'know? (Someone should patent that-- "the w00t effect")

--j_k

[Retroboy]

Stuck at work, Booly. Will have to wait 'till tomorrow.

-- Retro

[JAL-18]

Don't forget TAP!

Once we upgrade all the models to current standards, plans seem to be a demo release with a couple of single-player missions.

[A176]

retro, preach:

http://www.freeallegiance.org/

seriously, its the answer to every complaint in here. well, minus pretty graphics.

[Perseus]

I beta tested for the original Allegiance by Microsoft (didn't everyone?). Shocking.

I just don't trust the name.

[IgnusDei]

gimme an allegiance clone with super futuristic fighters like the FRX-00
and i'm hooked for life.

[Retroboy]

a176, the only complaint I have is that it's multiplayer only, and it always seems that Retrotykes need something whenever I step into an MP game. It's one of the reasons why I mostly play single-player with a pause feature (the other big one is that I suck). I'm guessing the post-modded version doesn't come with a campaign?

Nonetheless, it looks quite interesting. Nice to see that there are product support groups out there that are like the Freespace Open Source project.

Booly: Noze posted one, the other one is http://galciv.com/index.asp?c=1 but it's not out for a while. I think there's a couple more but bluesnews.com doesn't have a comprehensive search function.

I also found this link - even though it's pretty old, it's an interesting read if you're into the genre: http://www.gamespot.com/gamespot/fea...y_spaceempire/

-- Retro

[Nurizeko]

That thing looks cool, i assume its also an atmosheric fighter, cool though.

[TheDeadlyShoe]

Space Empires V ought to be awesome.

The nice thing about the Space Empires series is that the game moves from one world to galaxy-spanning empires with the ability to build ringworlds and stuff.

Good mod community for it too.

Retro, the problem with that is that it just doesn't work out well, since you (the player)'s performance ends up having little effect on how the game plays out.

[Nurizeko]

http://www.freeallegiance.org/

I downloaded and installed it but couldnt connect, i read around the forums there about something to do with ports and routers and blah blah blah blah blah, i wanna play a game, not dig into the innards of my computer and moden and tinker so, as nice as it looks i'll have to pass it up.

Guess i wont be reliving some nostalgia for tachyon after all.

Edit; actually nevermind, i played the tutorial mission things and the controls are ugly, they dont allow for a mouse or anything and bleh, its got nothing on tachyon, so it isnt that great really.

I think were better off waiting for a new space flight fight sim thing.

[jranak]

(It does allow for mouse control-- press zero on your numpad.)

Allegiance is cool, but it's not Tachyon. Graphics aren't the same, for example, and I personally don't like the RTS elements that are in the game.

--j_k

[Mac_Bug]

for arcadish action, you can always play wing commander secret ops, although you should probably play prophecy to get the whole story

http://www.wcnews.com/files.shtml#wcso

[Gyokuran]

I'd agree with Preach. Many missions in FreeSpace 2 had you racking up at least a dozen kills in order to even barely beat the mission, and your wingmen rarely ever survived the first wave of enemies. I still recall the "take the Sathanas main guns out" mission, when you're in one of the most heavily armored ships in the game, and you dive in with 3 wingmen. Two minutes later, your wingmen have completely disappeared.

A good balanced space sim would have you getting one, maybe two, kills a mission.

-- Retro

I've played though the Freespace 2 campaign about 5 times in the last 6 months. The highest number of kills in a single mission I remember getting were 25-35, you get credit for a kill when you are the single largest source of hull (not shield) damage to a target. Typically it was around 5-15 kills depending on the mission, enemies and allies usually came in wings of 3 or 4 though I think it can be as high as 6. That's still a lot more then most real pilots would rack up in a lifetime though. I think the requirements for the Ace medals in FS2 is 100 kills for "Ace", 250 kills for "Double Ace", and 500 kills for "Triple Ace".

I didn't mind taking down an unrealistic number of fighters in FS2, however I didn't really like how your wing men sucked and didn't really matter. I did grow attached to the various large spaceships though, when the Aquitane (the ship you're stationed on for 3/4ths of the game) came under attack there was no way in hell I was going to let a bomber wing get past me. Anyway, I'd like to play a fighter sim where you would have a large pool of characters each with distinctive (and non cheesy) personalities and high quality voice acting. As you go though combat with them you grow attached to them, so it really feels like a big deal when one of them dies. Chances are by the end of the game, very few if any of your original squad mates are still alive. I'm sort of thinking along the lines of "Alls Quiet on the Western Front" only with spaceships.

[ColonelBorissov]

I loved Tachyon, even though I only ever played the demo...

It was kickass, especially that railgun

I have Descent. It is sooooo cool. Doom in space XD

[Progenitor]

has everyone forgotten about Starlancer?

[Mikk]

/me cries...

Why is it that space sims have you flying in space with friggin' aeroplanes?!?

[TheDeadlyShoe]

Because it's more fun..

Mikk, you could try Starshatter.

edit:

Here's a pic:

http://www.deadlyshoe.com/images/beautyold.jpg

[Nurizeko]

When i played tachyon i always hugged the space stations and terrain, everyone else flied about willy nilly, but when i got chased i kept it nice and close, most folk couldnt keep up, man i loved tachyon, the railgun was sweet.

[DatonKallandor]

Anyway, I'd like to play a fighter sim where you would have a large pool of characters each with distinctive (and non cheesy) personalities and high quality voice acting. As you go though combat with them you grow attached to them, so it really feels like a big deal when one of them dies.

Starlancer had that. It also included the typical twists, but just this time it really mattered to you when

Spoiler

your wingleader (who is supposed to be the guy you look up to) goes traitor

Daton

[boolybooly]

Thanks Retro, interesting.

SE5 looks like a vast graphical improvement on very similar gameplay to SE4, I do have both Galciv and SE4.

But this is really a space-flight sim thread so I wont derail it !

I bought MS flight simulator 2004 the other day and though it has bugs and stability problems there is a shuttle landing simulation DL for that, so that is technically a space flight sim.

[The Collector]

Are those Robotech fighters? Almost thought they were the ones from Deep Angel, but they all look alike..

[Retroboy]

THIS JUST IN!
=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-
http://bluesnews.com/cgi-bin/board.p...threadid=60553 - brand spanking new "Evochron" space sim. Comes with what appears to be a primitive economy, and multiple classes of ship.

http://starfighter.home.att.net/evoc.../downloads.htm - check a couple of the tutorial videos at the bottom. This one looks promising, considering the drought we've had recently!

-- Retro

[Kryopsis]

Hm, the game looks like a ported DOS wingcommander.

[Mikk]

which reminds me, I have yet to play the corporate branch of tachyon singleplayer.

[Nurizeko]

When i played tachyon single player the game crashed up at the part where

Spoiler

the main character guy was exiled to the outter rim or whatever.

So basicly my main experience was the multiplayer.

[Riess]

That's a pity, the campaign is pretty good.

[ceejayoz]

Man, Allegiance rocked. I was great with the Heavy Interceptor... the sideslip function was spectacularly useful. Kick it in at the right time and you could have an utterly confusing flight path while slamming your opponent.

Big fleet battles were great in that game, especially with capships with the long range anti-fighter missiles on your side.