Back Door (8) - 4th out of 5 maps

[BrSgt_Burns]

Here is the campaign map so far. Only one more to go before I start working on the SP.



This map is Called Back Door, an alternative way into the city. That the chaos forces are currently unaware of. This is a typical 4v4 or of course 2v2v2v2 and so on.

1 & 2 - Space Marines
5 & 6 - Imperial Guard
3,4,7 & 8 - Chaos

3 & 4 are trapped by huge steel gates which they will have to blast their way through. This is good and bad, Good - It means that at first their will be 4v2. Bad - because 3 & 4 will explode out with 2 full armies and usually a demon to boot.

grab the installer here - http://files.filefront.com/Back_Door.../fileinfo.html

or the if your comfortable putting in the files yourself

grab the plan files here - http://files.filefront.com/back_door.../fileinfo.html

Pic's






Let me know how you go

[Adonis]

Will you be adding this map to your Winter Maps installer soon?

[FIG]

Downloading now, looks awesome by the way.

[Aralez]

Mhhh, nice map! Reminds me of my holidays in the Netherlands (dam/bridge). I like the way how you create those unique places, just like Rayden in Artefact. :thumb:

Edit: The download at filefront finally works again for me. Gonna test right away. :!:

[BrSgt_Burns]

I'm glad you guys like it, but have you found any bug's? Let me know

[Aralez]

*sees EXE file and is frightened*

Any non-exe variants for guys like me that know where to put those folders...

[ThetaOrion]

I never liked the feel of executables either. I'm too afraid of spybots being hid in them or having them do things to my hard drive that I don't know what they are doing. Some people hide AI files or gameplay changing files in some of their executables, or other things. And of course, it really makes you nervous when your Virus Checker starts seeing what it thinks is viruses in them.

I'm sure pretty Burn's and Rayden aren't doing that, with their EXE maps. But, when it comes to maps, I like too like ZIPed folders so that I can feel and see what is happening to my hard drive.

[BrSgt_Burns]

You guys are funny What makes you think the map file is safe. A compressed file with raw 3d data and folder path, a perfict place for my little pet worm. just kidding

I will post another link when i get home tonight

[Aralez]

*Looks at title of Map and is even more frightened*

Thanks, BrSgt_Burns, for your understanding! You have to know that we all have our negative experiences with exes and their hmmmm, sometimes unwanted attachments. Even when a user doesn't know that he spreads a virus/trojan, the harm is still there.

[ThetaOrion]

Lol.

I didn't catch that the name of this map was "Back Door".

I was just trying to explain why I was being slow to download and try -- fear of EXE's, and the fact that I have been busy testing Aralez's 8P map, and busy with Rayden's Artefact map before that.

A lot of work goes into these maps, and I think that many of the user created maps are better than those that Relic gave us, so the user created maps are worth supporting.

[BrSgt_Burns]

There you go guy's, in my first post! Let me know how you go.

[adamstrange]

Is this one Giant map consisting of those 4 maps?

Do you have an installerfor the first couple of maps?

[ThetaOrion]

Played 4vs4 a couple of times -- HARD setting on Plain Vanilla 1.41 WA.

Okay, that was a bit different.

The four on the outside beat up on and demolish the two on the outside -- not too much fun if you used Fixed positions and end up being one of the two on the outside. Got overrun easily when the four came at me and my two allies on the inside of the Gate did nothing.

A random position made me one of the four on the outside the next time around, which made things infinitely easier. Rub out the two factions on the outside, and then take your four hoards to the gates.

The two underdogs on the outside need more resources around their area so that they can try to take hold before the hoards come in. But, I don't know if they can establish a defensive position or not, even if they had more resources.

The ones on the inside don't knock down the gates if they are Computer AI, so I think the map would be more effective for human players. But, it might not hurt if there were resource points along the back road behind the barrier that the ones on the inside can capture, so that they really do have a Daemon or Squiggie there waiting for you when the four on the outside get to the gate.

Also, is there a way through the barrier to that Critical Point in the NorthEast corner, besides Deep Striking? I keep getting the feeling that there is a secret to the map that I didn't discover -- that the 'backdoor of the campaign' really has a back door on the map as well.

I think the two factions on the inside need somewhere to expand to. As it is now, maybe they could get through the barrier to the back road if they were Chaos or Space Marines, but only by deep striking very late in the game if they are still alive by then. But, even if they get through the barrier, there's only the critical point there, and no resource points to help them.

The map didn't have any Slag Deposits for the big Thermo Generators -- that always makes the economy weird and the build up slow. Maybe the two on the inside could have some slag deposits so that they could indeed get really big before the four on the outside arrive at the gates? Or maybe the two underdogs on the outside could each have a slag deposit so that their economy can match that of the four factions that they will soon have to go up against.

Like I said, it was a different experience, for sure -- the Back Door Map. I'm not sure I got the secret or the message that was intended. But, I did play it, and I have now provided critical comments as well. Definitely the most different feeling map I have ever played. And if you go in using Fixed positioning and end up in position one, it can be downright frustrating as you get wiped off the map.

Now, I keep thinking that this map would be best as a Free For All -- 1 vs 7, or 2allies vs 6 Free For All. I have to think about it some more.

Oh BTW, I can get pretty critical. I used to beta-test software and field-test telescope eyepieces, so I have been trained to see what I think is weird and to report it. Remember that criticism is infinitely easier than creation. So, if nothing I have to say is useful, that is fine, too. I admit, maybe I didn't get what was intended. Or maybe I didn't see the full picture.

[Aralez]

I think your report was very good. An open constructive feedback.

The map is part of a campaign BrSgt_Burns is making, and i guess the balance problems you and i (with Lost Gate) see are probably irrelevant as they are not supposed to be played the usual way. Well, let's see what he says

[BrSgt_Burns]

ThetaOrion - first of all, let me say - fantastic feedback

As Aralez said it is for a campaign and whilst balance is still important, these maps may favor a specific position. But I might ultimately change the skirmish maps once the mission are scripted, we will see?

You actually noticed everything I tried to achieve on the map. But you did miss one important thing

1 & 2 - Space Marines
5 & 6 - Imperial Guard
3,4,7 & 8 - Chaos

The Shield on the Back Door is down and the Imperial Guard are trying to defend it. The Space Marines are trying to re-enforce them but they are at the opposite end of the map. It is important that position 3 & 4 are enemies of position 1 & 2 or as you have discovered they won't attack the gate and free themselves. However, because the gates are yours, you can simply click on them and press delete - technically they are your buildings and you can destroy them.

If you are after a bit more of a challenge and something a little closer to the story line use this layout



Currently the only way into the city is to jump the shield, but I am trying to find away to disable the shield door for the story line. It is good you noticed the slag pits, I forgot to add them. There will be 2 connected to the pipes on the inside of the gate, but in the campaign the imperial guard Thermo Generators will be disabled and only the space marines will be able to build on it.

Ok, I think I answered everything! OH, the resources are meant to be scares. The map is all about struggling to support the Imperial Guard. Again thanks for the feed back, I do appreciate you taking the time out to test it for me . That way the maps will be ready to go for scripting.

[ThetaOrion]

1.2 ........|3.4
.............|___


8.7......6.5....

The Layout

::

Sgt_Burns:

I provided this little text layout so that I could dovetail it and visualize it with your suggested Fixed layout. The two work well together so that others who read this thread can know what starting postions are where -- so they can know what we are talking about.

Yes, I felt as if I was missing something, because it wasn't quite working for me as a 4vs4 Skirmish game. I appreciate your message, because now I can see that I was missing the scripting and a proper layout.

And now, I need to try it in unscripted Skirmish mode with your suggested layout. That could indeed provide an interesting game -- a 3 versus 4, interesting.

Without the scripting, it really wasn't working as a 4vs4 Skirmish. A 2v2v2v2 might work, but I thought that maybe as a 2vs6 Free For all, where you go in with a computer buddy to keep you alive and the other 6 AI are against each other and against you. That, I think would work as a good Skirmish play on this map with only one human player. You and your computer buddy in positions one and two.

In a 3GOOD vs 4EVIL CHAOS, per your suggested layout, I do think it would be good for the Space Marines to have slag deposits. I don't think they can win or properly support without them. But, I can see where you would want to keep the resources scarce for the four Chaos factions to balance things out a bit.

And indeed, down in the South East corner, I couldn't get through the Shield there. It wouldn't let me pass, but I don't know if you could fly over it or not with Raptors or the Space Marine equivalent -- I didn't get a chance to try. Eventually, I stood some of my builder units in front of the shield, and even though they couldn't pass through the shield, they made the other side visible so that I could Deep Strike Terminators onto the other side of the shield.

Still I was wondering if there was something that I was missing there, and again, it sounds like I was missing the specialized scripting.

It will be interesting to see what kind of balance you end up with when the map is properly scripted.

I was also thinking, especially if the Space Marines are there alone in position 1 that you might want to tighten up the trails and create a sort of chokepoint in the center so that with turrets the Space Marines might even be able to stand against the opposition -- slow the initial rush. Tight trails would slow or prevent the Chaos Rush so that the Space Marines can get established. But, with 6&5 IG harrassing on the flanks of the 7&8 Chaos, tighter trails might not be needed to keep position 1 Space Marines alive. That needs further unscripted skirmish gameplay testing per your suggested layout, to know whether the trails need to be tightened or not.

Of course, scripting the Space Marines some sort of advantage and scripting the IG a disadvantage as you suggest would also be a way. Lots of possibilites with scripting, or so it sounds to me.

I can see now, in unscripted Skirmish mode, why you would suggest only one Space marine faction in positions 1&2, so that the exposed 7&8 Chaos aren't as easily overrun.

Like I said, it was one of the most different maps I have played, and I was indeed getting the feeling that the 'difference' was being done on purpose and that I was indeed missing something.

Anyway, once you have got the scripts the way you want them, you will need to do some play testing on this map to make sure that the balance of the final product is the way that you want it to be. Unlike other maps, this map didn't have a natural built-in 4vs4 balance, and I can see now that it is being done on purpose to make the map more interesting.

[ThetaOrion]

--
--

Okay, I went in later with the suggested layout -- 3 vs 4 HARD setting, me as SM in position 1 with IG allies in 5&6, the remaining four enemies were Chaos.

That was an interesting game.

The Chaos AI behind the gates actually tore down their gates. When they flooded forth, my single Space Marines in position one were the first to go. I was no match for four factions of Chaos. I had nowhere near enough resources to work with.

The Chaos are strong -- they might be the best faction in 1.41. I'm getting that feeling.

I let the game continue past my being annihilated to see how the two IG factions would do against four Chaos Factions.

I then noticed that both IG factions built all of their Mechanized Command structures in the little cubbyhole there by the shield that they are trying to protect. That meant that not a single one of their tanks ever made it to the front lines. Those IG tanks were just sitting there doing nothing waiting for Chaos to figure out a way across the bridge to free them.

The IG were even building Infantry Command structures or Tactical Command and Power Generators on that little bridge that is blocking the way to the Shield and blocking the way out. Half or more than half of the IG armies, and all of the tanks were locked in.

So, no wonders my Space Marines went down so fast. My IG allies had locked themselves in and couldn't effectively field half of their army or any of their tanks.

The map is challenging or detailed or tight enough that the AI does have a hard time figuring out how to get around. Those bridges do slow down the rush. The four Chaos factions were slow to rush the 2 IG and finish them off.

--
--


I'm thinking that to stay alive, it will be more than safe to put the two Space Marine factions in position one and two, and to let the two IG allies seal themselves into the little cubbyhole in the SouthEast corner.

I don't know why Chaos enemies will tear down the gates and nobody else will. Last night, allied AI and enemy AI refused to tear down the gate. But, the Chaos enemies had no qualms about tearing down the gates to get to me. When those Chaos tear down their own gates, 4vs4 really does become realistic on that map and really does come into play, so you can safely have the two sets of Space Marines in positions 1&2, if I'm reading it all correctly.

You need the extra Space Marines in position 2 if the Chaos are going to be tearing down the gates to get to you.

Chaos seems to power up and max out quicker than the other factions, and with the IG locking in their tanks so that they can never be used, you are going to need the extra set of Space Marines to even have a chance. I'm just not sure that the Space Marines have enough resources to draw upon to keep up with four factions of Chaos once the gates go down.

But, I have to try that next.

Maybe the gates could be made stronger so that they take longer to knock down, so that 1SM and 2 tank-locked IG really do have time enough to try to take down the Chaos in positions 7&8 before the gates go down. I still can't figure out why the Chaos will take down their gates and no other AI will.

Anyway, I was doing fine, until the Chaos factions started pumping out tanks and I had no resources to pump out tanks of my own and my allied tanks were all locked into the corner of the map.

--
||
--

STILL LATER:

Okay 4vs4 HARD setting, me in position 1 as Space Marines and SM allies in position 2. IG computer AI allies in 5&6. Chaos Enemies in 3&4 and 7&8.

The result was the same.

The Chaos in 3&4 tear down their gates. Whether it is just me in position 1 or me and a SM ally in position 1&2, there are not enough resources in 1&2 to do anything. Four factions of Chaos are soon all over us.

My SM and IG allies spend most of their time standing in their base doing nothing. The allied AI seem to have a hard time with the map, but the 4 Chaos factions know exactly where I am at. <grin>

It's slaughter city. I can't win with the suggested layout that Sgt_Burns gave us. The Chaos have a dozen Predator tanks in my base while I and my Space Marine ally in positions 1&2 still don't have the resources to make a Tank Factory.

We go down.

I'd have to try it at Standard and Easy to see if I can win.

It's a whole other game when the Chaos AI in position 3&4 tear down their gates in the opening minutes of the game.

And, the IG allies of mine really are inept in the 5&6 position. The IG allies literally can't figure out how to find the Chaos bases. And we Space Marines don't have time or resources to explore and find the position 7&8 Chaos bases for the IG, no time to lead them there by the hand. And, the IG allies just simply don't move up from the 5&6 position to attack 3&4 Chaos either. My IG allies just stand there. At best, my allies can only find the center of the map, but the four factions of Chaos AI can find the center better than my allies can.

With version 1.40, the Imperial Guard were the early-game rush faction, way over-powered at tier 1. But now with 1.41, the Imperial Guard don't rush or do anything. In version 1.41, the Chaos are the new rush faction, from what I have been seeing while playing on this and other maps.

It's time to put up the BackDoor map and wait to see what the next version of the map presents. I do think that some things will have to be tweaked either through shifting of resources, making the gate stronger, or through scripting in order to take into account the AI changes that were introduced in the new version 1.41 of WA and make it possible to win with the suggested layout. Or . . . maybe a better player than I can find a way to pull it off and get a win.

[ThetaOrion]

I let myself think about this some more over the past 10 hours or so.

I'm a take-and-hold, build a base, type of player. Some players are rush players. If you could rush your Space Marines into position 7&8, and then do all of your fighting in their base, and hope that your 5&6 IG allies can find their way there too -- AND if you could somehow destroy the Chaos bases 7&8 before the Chaos in positions 3&4 get through their gate, you might could win this map in Skirmish mode with 1.41 at the HARD setting using the suggested layout.

But I promised to back off for awhile, so I'll leave this little exercise to someone else.

[BrSgt_Burns]

Don't mistake my silence for offence My primary focus is to make a bug free, flowing map design. A map that requires a diverse type of strategy to win and of course it has to be fun. You don't get those kind of maps by sitting around patting each other on the back.

ThetaOrion - You my friend are a map designers dream come true. You have master tested my map and it will be better for it! My silence is because I have been working on the problems you have pointed out and I have almost got the AI manipulated so not to trap their armor and to build their bases in an orderly fashion. I have also Impasse staked the bridges so no buildings can be built near it.

I have also given the imperial guard 2 strat points each and placed two slag pits behind the gate so that Marines can orbital in a servitor for more power. I should have the new version ready in an 1hour or 2.

**EDIT**

Ok, here's v2 - http://files.filefront.com/Back_Door.../fileinfo.html

[ThetaOrion]

Sgt_Burns:

Well, I didn't want to become a pest, because I know that too much criticism can be offensive, and I do know now that the Back Door map was not designed to be balanced for skirmish mode, or even necessarily designed to be played without a script.

I definitely wanted to try to make it clear that you need to do whatever you need to do, and I understand that.

But, I also wanted to let you know that I tried your suggested layout and to report the results that I experienced, both good and bad.

I don't know why, but I like testing things, as time allows. But, I do worry about giving offense when I report, and sometimes I tend to be overly thorough when I do report, but I also realize that what I do report might not be useful or might not apply to the intended goal at hand.

I'm fine with silences and giving a person like you time to build and respond. I just wanted you to know that I was hoping not to offend with my criticism and also that I want to give you all the time you need to make it the way you want it.

Anyway, post a link to the RAR or ZIP when you have made the changes you want and had a chance to test it yourself, and I'll give the new version another go with your suggested layout, as time allows.

ThetaOrion

--
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--

A BIT LATER:

I found your link to version 2.

Okay, version 2 is winnable at the HARD setting with plain vanilla 1.41 WA. You have to put down the full press right from the start so that you are fighting inside the bases of 7&8 instead of having them fight in your base.

But, you have to kind of follow your IG AI allies and move when they move.

I didn't do well 3vs4, my single Space Marines didn't have enough Commander units to spare to lead the charge into bases 7&8. Your IG allies in 5&6 will follow you or co-rush with you into the enemy's 7&8 base, but only if you lead the charge and maintain the pressure. But, as the only Space Marines in position one, I didn't have anybody to spare to lead the charge or co-rush with my allies or enough to work with to stay in position at 7&8. If you are not there to support your 5&6 IG allies when they make their rush or their move to 7&8, they retreat and never go back. If your IG allies retreat, they just stand inside their base and do nothing, while you as the single Space Marine in position one go down.

However, 4vs4 with me and a Space Marine ally in positions 1 and 2, and the IG allies in five and six can indeed be won as long as you lead the charge to position 7&8 and continue to maintain a presence there to keep your allies there as well -- then I was able to win and did win.

Now, in the new version of the map, the two Chaos factions in position 3&4 by the gate stay put, relatively well, after they tear down their own gates. And they don't really make their move until you almost have base 7&8 mopped up.

The four Chaos factions also retreat in version 2 instead of making a beeline for your base and camping out there from the very beginning.

Anyway, the map was winnable at HARD setting and WA 1.41 with the suggested layout, with the exception that I selected a Space Marine ally for position 2 and went in 4vs4, so that I would have enough Commander units in place to keep the pressure up on the Chaos at 7&8.

I don't know if I'm a good enough player to win 3vs7 with the suggested layout at the HARD setting, but I can begin to visualize now with version 2 of the Back Door map that somebody with the right playing skills could probably pull it off.

Thank you Sgt_Burns for the changes and the second version of the map. I think it is indeed closer to giving you the intended effect that you desired, even in Skirmish mode without a full-blown or fully developed campaign script.

You must have done some kind of AI scripting in the Skirmish mode (or whatever you did do) to get the better balance and better gameplay that I witnessed for myself. It worked for me this time around. This time around, I didn't completely feel like a lamb at slaughter.

Thank you.

[BrSgt_Burns]

Good to hear it and thanks for the feed back. I had already moved onto the next map without noticing the AI issues, so it is good you pointed out the problem. I didn't change the AI scripting, but the AI likes to build in a counter clockwise circle. So placing the start position will ultimately determine the location of all the buildings. I also used impass editing to dot out the roads so that the couldn't build their and leave room for armor to get out. But is good to see it is all up and working, thx for the help

[Aralez]

I finally had some time to check out the map. I'm impressed. You really have a huge talent when it comes to realistic and believable map-design, there are lots of awesome and interesting places. Wow. Before this map, Raydens "Artefact" was my no.1 regarding "location-layout". This map replaced it.

Albeit, Artefact is still a beta, maybe if Rayden would continue work on it (hint, Rayden, hint)

[BrSgt_Burns]

Thx for the kudo's, I would like to thank you and ThetaOrion for your testing of my maps. Its has been a big help for a good map design and play.

I need a few people to test the missions coded and it would be a privilege if Aralez and ThetaOrion would be interested in beta testing. It would also be good if I could get a volunteer with some scar knowledge for further inspiration is mission possibilities. Let me know

[Aralez]

Woohoo, PM'ed you my adress.

[ThetaOrion]

BrSgt_Burns:

Did you ever get the help that you requested here?

I had and have deadlines at work, so I haven't been able to play DoW as much, but yesterday, I spent the day testing Aralez's Castle Assault map.

I hope somebody was able to spend a day doing the new tests on this map and giving you the feedback you requested.

ThetaOrion

[Aralez]

Bump. And where is the completed campaign with all those maps ?