DoWpro 1.51 for Winter Assault released - Eldar revisited.

[TrueTheReaper]

Ok, here is the problem with generators :

We start a game, player 1 vs player 2. Player 1 goes offensive, Player 2 goes for a less aggressive, slightly techy build of 2 generators. Player 1 gains the mapcontrol as he spent more money on the army, thus increasing his +Req massively. Player 2 will have less req, but more power.

Now, player 1 spots that the player 2 is teching to vehicles, while player 1 is still in tier 1. Player 1 desperately tries to get the generators up allowing him to get tier 2, but since he did not build a generator in the start, he can´t get generators up fast enough because he lacks power. Player 1 has massive req advantage over player 2, but still can´t get his tech up. Player 2 gets his tanks into the field, starting to take back mapcontrol. Player 1 finally gets enough power to get tier 2 research going, but it is too late.

It is IMPOSSIBLE to turn a req advantage into power, i don´t mind if i have to spend all my requisition to get my power up, at least i would be able to do it fast. If generators scaled ONLY in req, harassing would still hurt, Power would be still scarce.

[f4lx]

its theorie but till now i didnt hear much complaining about this issues. we should w8 a bit more. replays etc. maybe gen should cost a little less but energy cost evades early vehicle spam and as well with these requirements your marco is more important.

when 2.0 is out with IG WE defintly will do a campaign or something like that.

looks like dowpro has a great future we are getting more and more people from all over the world.

i want to see dowpro on others leagues like international ESL ladder... that would be awesome... *dreammode* off

btw awesome work on that patch seems to get this mod more playble than ever and should be ready for 2.0!
i am happy that termis and chaplain have changed theri positions.
GJ!

[Aron_DeTomado]

Would it be possible to exclude IG from the comps selectionlist when you select random in 1.5? It would really make matching a whole lot easier as I wouldn't have to manually select each comps race.

[Perfect_Weapon]

This is the max damage normal flamers can do - I gave them 100% penetration vs monster_med. For flamers to do any more, I have to reconstruct the entire flamer damage chart, and I'm not about to do that.

I assume giving a weapon 101%+ penetration will do weird things rather than the damage increase we might have expected?

I cant recall where in the equation the penetration is factored in so I cant tell if the 101+% would have no effect.

[Tenak]

I guess the issue is that late gens just cost too much and that an early gen is too powerful. Is this correct?

Yes, this is basically it. True covers the point well, and I’ve already ranted enough about this issue in the thread, so I’m just going to provide a couple of extra points:

1) The big generator is extremely powerful at the moment, as it is the only possible way to get a decent power supply

2) Early gens are very powerful. This obviously puts the game in the favour of orks & eldar as they can put down early gens much more easily than the other races.

3) You have to be very careful about spending your power on your troops early game. E.g. if you get one power plant and buy some flamers for you marines, you may push him back and get map control, but will have no power to get more gens. Basically this means unless you completely destroy him at this point you will lose.

IMO gen scaling is fine, but gens should not cost power! At all. It means that you are at risk spending the power you have already accumulated, and you do not really have the power to get all the cool weapons and upgrades in tier 1.5, as you need the power to get vehicles later.

[mlai]

One of the things WA does semi-well, that is not present in DOW, is the increased impact of teching vs massing. Ideally, WA teching vs massing puts the player on a razor's edge, forcing a decision between the two at all times. Just because you get map control early on, if you get careless your tier 1 mass will be slaughtered by a couple of enemy tier 2 units. This is better than DOW, where if you win the early game, you just have to ride your advantage to the finish line (line being tier 2 spam).

DOWpro, IMO, takes this design model, and accomplishes it in a better way. It doesn't nerf tier 1 units to oblivion or give ridiculously high research bonuses like in WA. Rather, it introduces power scaling for gens. IMO, gens absolutely must scale in power costs for this to work, or we're back to DOW tier 1 masses deciding the majority of game outcomes.

So, the complaint is "I have tier 1 map control, but I lost the tech race even though I have more **req** income, and so I lost the game in the end." I don't see this as a complaint, because this is exactly what WA ideally tries to accomplish, without all the WA changes that grate on my nerves. You're supposed to constantly balance the temptation to mass tier 1 for early map control, against the need to tech. Tier 1 map control is not supposed to guarantee you anything, even if you don't make any micro mistakes and win the majority of skirmishes.

My only change would be to make big gens more expensive, because on some maps where Ork/Eldar have safe easy access to a slag, they can create their early big gen without worrying about being overwhelmed by enemy tier 1 mass (Ork buildings shoot, etc etc).

[f4lx]

well said.. have nothing to add

[Excedrin]

I assume giving a weapon 101%+ penetration will do weird things rather than the damage increase we might have expected?

I cant recall where in the equation the penetration is factored in so I cant tell if the 101+% would have no effect.

Values over 100% piercing are apparently capped to 100. In WA, there's a couple units that have >100% piercing, but based on gameplay it has no effect.

I've asked a few times whether ability modifiers are also capped, but nobody's actually explained it to me yet. As an example, it seems like the IG execute ability in WA is capped to 30% bonus instead of the 300% bonus that's in the ability file.

It seems valuable to actually locate the damage calculation code so we could see exactly how this stuff works.

Regarding big gens, how about making them tp_building_low or reducing their hitpoints so that it's easier for a hero+t1 troops to kill one? That way, building an early big gen is still viable, but defending it will be more important. I'm not sure how that will work on Fallen City vs Ork, but FC vs Eldar or MoM vs either, it should make early big gen much more of a gamble. On Tartarus or other 2v2 maps with nearby slag it'll still be silly for any race to not make a big gen relatively early.

I think that ideally it should still be possible to have at least 3 general ideas: rush > econ/tech > "safe" build > rush. The tech option in dowpro is basically early power or early big gen. My only concern is that it shouldn't be impossible to do a big gen build on some maps, but it should be difficult or require your opponent's cooperation.

One more note, I think it's possible to implement any gen cost scaling by copying the gen ebp so there's a different entity for gen 1, gen 2, gen 3, etc. I'll do this if there's a desire for it. It would be possible to have the first 3 gens cost req only (with scaling), then the rest cost req and power (also with scaling).

[Korbah]

Ok really great work so far with 1.5 --> I think its going to be the best DoWpro thus far with a very comprehensive list of tweaks and refinements that fix a lot of those things that "just weren't right".

That being said I've been hard at work with even more tweaks!

Thermo gens: increase cost to 95 power (very risky fast thermo builds now)

Gen scaling: Lets leave as is for the moment - I'm not 100% sure it needs changing just yet,

Flamers: simply double the dps of regular sm/csm flamers and increase dps for burnas by 3/4 (they're cheaper and should be shittier). Their AP's are so poor for everything else that such an increase shouldn't really make them a damn better against anything else (someon confirm plz...I have very limited time to look this up in the dps lists).

Terms:
- ensure all moving accuracy penalties are 20% or less (if currently less)
- Soz mlai someone said the AC was range 40....if it was 30 plz restore to 30. This issue came about since I don't have enough time with the computer to look this all up.

MANz: surge is a toggle ability - are the icons fixed to have a activated/deactivated icon?

Eldar:
- Support stones - all stones add +1 veh pop in addition to the support portal HP buff
- Support portal still adds +3 veh pop
- Webways only grant +1/+1 inf/veh pop but cost 80req and scale down 5req each webway
- Aspect warrior stones add +1 inf pop
- Soul shrines add +2/+2 pop and continue to scale down in cost as before

--> Essentially this is a rework of the eldar pop system. Its more dynamic and flexible - allowing multiple support portal or heavy aspect builds whilst making SS's and multiple SS's feasible and useful.

Cults:
- change morale regen to 8 (iirc I changed it to 10 stupidly)

CL aura: Should it be radius 20 as well for consistency?

Raptors:
- change from the HQ increasing the squad size to the sac pit to make them equivalent to berserkers

Icons for WA units in DoWpro - they all use the WA icons which have different backgrounds. Is there any chance someone like searaven could redo them to have the same visual background theme as the other icons. Cheers.

[BoRT]

i'd REALLY think gen scaling should be brought down to 15 power (leave reg untoched if you want).
just had a few games and its DAMN hard to get even to tier 2 if you go armory -> tier1 heavy weapons in the first place. results in massive req floating which CANNOT be avoided

[mlai]

OK, I'll make the changes. This time I won't wait for approval since it's a small list. I'll upload for Excedrin and Larkin as soon as I'm done.

2 things:

1. CL aura shouldn't be altered because it does much more. It has a radius 15 aura which increase troop damage output by 10% and decrease enemy morale regen by -1. Then it has an overlapping radius 20 aura which doubles healing for friendly troops and commanders (permanently doubling CL health regen, BTW) and reduces enemy morale regen by 20%, basically turning the CL into a walking Taint. Heheh, I don't think I want to buff this ability any further.

EDIT

2. Simply doubling damage of flamers seems a bad idea after I looked at Excedrin's dowpro dps chart. If I double the damage, flamers will have comparable damage to tac bolters. AND aoe. AND reload time bonus from research. This would make flamers better damage dealers than tac bolters, which I think is a bad idea. Granted it's a HW, but it should be used for morale damage primarily. Flamers are already extremely good at breaking.

With anti-demon dps at 8 dps, it does the same dps against monster_med as a tac bolter (sliiiightly better). It also has AoE. I think this might be enough for now. I think we should just try playing it this way.

It's not as if monster_med is invincible now. Plasma does as much damage to them as it's ever done. I wouldn't worry for Orkz either; Nobz aren't affected by the weapon nerfs.

[Korbah]

Ok good point on CL leave as is.

Flamers - I guess we'll just have to wait and see if they're any good with the AoE --> its hard to really determine the effect without actual testing.

On gen scaling:
- I'm happy to try 15 scale instead of 20, we can easily change it back if required. Furthermore with the thermogen power cost hike getting fast thermo's will be limited.

EDIT: mlai there's a few bugs listed here: http://s14.invisionfree.com/DOWPRO/i...hp?showforum=3

I don't know if u've addressed them all but its worth a quick once over just in case.

EDIT2: wow dowpro forum is kickass!
http://s14.invisionfree.com/DOWPRO/i...p?showtopic=24 (thanx true!!)

1. Can we make trukk dps more reasonable. mlai nerf to whatever you're comfortable with given truk's dowpro role (its 13dps atm x2 - there's 2 big shootas...thus maybe halving or 2/3 will do the trick)
2. Can we nerf Waaagh banner 2 to have same range as SM/CSM HB turret
3. WS should not be able to shoot on the move. Also increase teleport breakdown by 1 second.
4. Halve the cost of Warlock Witchblade upgrade from the SS
5. Ensure SC basic anti-hero dps is increased x2.5 and the witchblade dps is doubled. Feel free to discuss alternate number changes. Also buff veh_high dps by 50%
6. FS witchblade dps: buff to inf_hvy_med dps values, buff FS monster_high and vehichle_high dps by 30%

[Korbah]

More DoWpro 1.5 Changes:

Term Assault Cannon - I'd be interested simply out of curiousity to use the Oblit DPS values here (DoWpro values) and see how they perform.

DR's: Atm DR cost 70 req each......and tbh with the way req floats and gens scale it allows eldar players to take DR's as a complete no-brainer. I'd like the DR stone to be -10 req/+20 power in cost and each DR to cost +5power. I think this will create a more difficult choice for anti-sm/csm builds without making DR's too bad a choice considering their lower cost of 70req in DoWpro (ie do i go shees or DR's or guards...or even WS harass).

Bionics 2 research for chaos adds a morale buff --> I'd be more comfortable if the buff was given with the serk T3 ability research (forget its name) instead of the bionics.

Nob squad, MANz, Seer Council, Terms and AT's:
- all have been remarked to greater and lesser degrees as being insanely hard to actually kill even with massed firepower. Terms/AT's and SC received many buffs in 1.5 and lets face it nobz and manz were damn scary in the first place.
- I propose that when broken all of the aformentioned squads reinforce 50% slower thus limiting their ability to tank permanently. It also further develops the difference between standard and elite troops and reinforces the importance of morale in T2/3.
- PSM and oblits are deliberately ommitted since they already get omfgpwned by anti-morale dmg --> a double nerf would be too much.

Eldar LP3
- apparently its fire arc is bugged

Ork LP3/Waaaagh 3
- check DPS', use identical values to trak rokkit aka its AV

Infiltration:
- mlai have u tested whether buildings can be used as the requirements for buildings. This was discussed in depth in my IG notes just before Kasrkin changes.
- Just for example, change scout infiltration requirements to the armoury instead of the research and see if the game crashes. If it plays for 5mins longer then redo all the infiltration requirements and retest. Here's hoping it works since the current implementation is clunky.

REQUESTS!!!!:
- LarkinVB needs a helper for all the researches for the AI changes. Can someone get in contact and plz help him? PM mlai for .luas if you're able to assist Larkin - His work is extremely important!! ATM 20mins of computer time a day means I literally cannot give larking the time he needs.
- The DoWpro manual needs love --> can someone/ppl sit down and flesh it out plz

[mlai]

1. Will change gen scaling to 15.

2. Will look at the "bugs."

3. Disagree that this is what Trukkz need. Trukkz certainly do NOT have 2/3 the anti-building power of rokkit Trakkz. Since the complaint is "OMG Trukkz do not suck like Rhinos but come out at same time," I have alternate solution. Pre Mek Shop, all Trukk gunz are disabled. Once Mek Shop is built, a 25 req 10 sec research becomes available, which will re-arm all Trukk gunz. The clickable research is necessary so ppl will realize Trukkz have gunz again.

4. Disagree that WB2s should be equal in ability as turrets. WB2s are not and should not be equal to turrets. SM do not need to ensure turret survival to keep their tech. SM do not need to pay 200/50 for a turret and do not need to upgrade a turret just to have a reasonably buffed turret. WB2 do not outdamage turrets, now that turrets get upgraded damage in pro. Missiles still outrange WB2 with spotting, so what's the problem? The problem may be nerfed Brightlances. If you want WB2s have turret range, make it so WB2s cost 100/75 total, and do turret damage. 100 req =/= 25 pow. Personally I prefer to keep them as is; identical damage charts are kinda boring.

5. Will make WS have 10% acc when moving. But I won't disable WS move-shoot completely, since they do have the animation. Personally I disagree with nerfing WS, while I agree with making Stormz heavy_med (research option). Using WS correctly is a show of skill, and is beautiful to watch.

6. Agree with 4 and 5. Warlocks should rock more, for costing 80/50 per member.

7. I thought FS rocks the house as a commander? When did this change, that she now needs a buff vs heavy_med? So you want her to be a master of disruption, FoF circles around enemy commanders, AND kill marines? I don't care about the monster/vehicle_high buff; it's not as if she's gonna go fight Squiggys with a 30% buff.

8. Oblit cannons for Terms: I'll tell you how they'll perform.... Oblit cannon is only 25-35% better than a stormbolter against infantry. You'll get more for your buck just reinforcing the Termies.

[Korbah]

3. Trukks currently do 14dps per gun to light buildings --> that's almost 30dps. Other than that the numbers are fine - this is what ppl are complaining about.

4. the lp3/waaagh 3 dps are apparently bugged doing poor AV and good anti-inf instead of the reverse. Just confirm - they should be pretty much the same DPS as the rokkit trak

5. Perhaps with WS make the breakdown .5 secs longer instead of 1sec

7. buff monster_med to inf_hvy_med dps not buff inf_hvy_med. The veh_high buff is mainly aimed at the wraithlord.

[mlai]

3. Will look thru Trukkz's twin shoota dps and nerf the AV and AB portions by 50-66%.

4. Will check LP3/WB3 dps and switch around the AV vs AI damage if necessary. Will compare with rokkit Trakk.

5. Will +0.5 sec breakdown to WS.

7. Will buff FS's mons_med to at least equal to hvy_med, if not already higher.

9. Will make the DR change. But if you do this, wouldn't you need to re-buff DR damage to vanilla level?

10. Will change the research for Zerks.

11. Disagree with nerfing elite troops, for obvious reasons. Elite troops are supposed to be worth more than grunts. They do not wtfpwn grunts like in WA because (1)they have max cap and are very few in number, (2)they're not ridiculously buffed/cheap/fast/spammable. I highly doubt massed plasma cannot kill Nobz squads. It is not strange that they survive when masses of sluggas shield them, which is always my experience. Exclusion of PSM and Oblits is also strange; do they receive more damage when broken, like Horrors?

12. Will fix Eldar LP.

13. Will check infiltration.

[Korbah]

DoWpro 1.5 and Beyond:

Guys my goal with 1.5 and beyond before 2.0 is to lay the groundwork for the inclusion of IG. By groundwork I mean perfect the gameplay of the existing races, develop the community, DoWpro content and its image.

Essentially I've been very very impressed with the wonderful contributions that have been made towards DoWpro. There are many to list and we know who they are but these ppl have: continued to release new versions of DoWpro, added improved AI, multiple language packs, run tourneys and started the new forum, playtested and offered advice. The list goes on but the underlying message is that these contributions have improved DoWpro out of sight and I'm grateful for this.

I've been inspired by your support and I'm going to outline a few things I'd like to see happen. You don't need permission to start any of the projects - just get in there and do it and when you're done show us what you've got so we can add it to DoWpro. It will be appreciated.

Requests:
- As earlier mentioned Larkin needs assistance with the AI with the researches and so forth. PM him and get in contact - AI is a great asset and we're lucky to have larkin's skillz so lets maximise his input by helping him out. If you need .luas pm mlai or excedrin for them.

- Again the DoWpro manual needs love. If you only want to do one unit - fine write it up and post it here and we'll compile the whole lot together. A good manual makes discovering the quirks of DoWpro much easier and makes it more accessible to new players. More satisfied new players = more players = more games = more fun.

- DoWpro website. We've already seen the new DoWpro forum and goddamn I was impressed by some of the discussion there. From the start I wanted to create a DoWpro resource site that incorporated manual, dps stats, unit descriptions, discussion forum, replays, install and faq info and mirc help.)

Before I left for the USA, Aetherfox had agreed to use his old site and redo it as the Dowpro site. However, he struggled with the know-how to do the DPS's (he's mainly good at making the layout etc rather than parsing info etc). Could someone get in contact with aetherfox and ask him whether he'd be interested in going forward with the site (now that excedrin has made his DoWpro dps's.....sweet work on that too btw) OR whether he'd be willing to donate the layout to the DoWpro project. The site layout was a fundamentally functional AND visually appealing - something VERY important for any mod. TO BE SUCCESSFUL IN ATTRACTING NEW PLAYERS A MOD MUST LOOK DAMN GOOD, BE VERY FUN, BE DAMN EASY TO INSTALL/RUN and its community site MUST be visually appealing and informative.

Excedrin's DPS and the manual are atm not exciting to look at. Sure they're very useful info tools but the casual player "just checking DoWpro out" isn't going to be impressed. I intend to "Sell" DoWpro 2.0 with not only IG but a kickass site/forum and community. We combine the flashy and functional interface of aetherfox's site with an updated and comprehensive manual, excedrin's dps info, mirc chat, forum and a replay section (here's another thing we'll need to work on....someone good at parsing? so that we can get an upload system as good as DoWsanc).

Yes its a pain but I've learnt after months of trying to attract ppl to DoWpro is that ppl don't want to DO anything. It has to be a) easy and b) goddamn flashy.

If you can help with this request it'd make ol' Korbie's christmas for sure!

- The DoWpro logo: At this stage I've considered the logo in the existing manual (an edited version of the wh40k 4th ed rulebook cover) to be the official DoWpro logo. I think with making a new site that a strong visual theme and logo is important. The logo is pretty good but could use a bit more editing and touch-up (the IV on the skull's forehead could be replaced with DoWpro for example and the text could be redone to be nicer). Anyone with graphic skillz or friends with it plz don't be shy - show us what you can do!

For 1.5 @ Searaven:
If possible could you get to mlai
- icons with redone backgrounds for the new WA units so that they're in the same style as vanilla/dowpro units
- make sure MANz have a toggle surge button icon
- Make a new eldar LP fire/cease fire buttons

Anims:
I've redone up the list for anims that need redoing. Anyone at all plz get onto this since 2.0 NEEDS these anims to be done. There are HEAPS of 3dmax tutorials and the tools are the xref anims in the adeptus modificatus section (pm brother santos). I only have access to public library computers so I just can't do it. Again if you can start making these anim fixes just send the redone content to mlai/excedrin who'll hold onto it for when I return. I've marked out the harder anim fixes with "*":
- Berserker/asm frag throw
- kasrkin and k.sarg infiltration and melta throw
- Farseer BT kill anim
- Chaplain CoRE anim (need a new one - xref from existing unit)
- Hvy Weapon platoon *
--> model needs to be finished
--> redo any missing anims
- New anim for truk rampage *
- Chaos cap/decap anim like berserkers for the following units:
--> DoWpro CL (with scythe not lollipop)
--> sorc, csm, cults, raps, psm, champ, rap champ, oblits
- a new decap anim for sentinel (ideally it squats down) *
- baneblade shooting anim for autocannon
- working .luas or new models/anims for all IG units
- IG guardsmen need to have working flamer models *
- area effect special attack for psyker and ogryns and bonehead
- fix term and oblit teleport anim to allow for better teleport timers (making TP more useful in game)
- New main menu frontend **: many mods have a redone main screen. DoWpro would like one too!

3. Will look thru Trukkz's twin shoota dps and nerf the AV and AB portions by 50-66%.
Essentially truk has 2 big shootas and each does 13-14 dps to light buildings which is simply too high. AFAIK that's the only issue

5. Will +0.5 sec breakdown to WS. So essentially the breakdown time is DoWpro 1.49 stats +0.5 secs. Also 10% accuracy on the move is kinda pointless....if we're having moving accuracy just double the moving accuracy penalty of 1.49.

9. Will make the DR change. But if you do this, wouldn't you need to re-buff DR damage to vanilla level? AFAIK DR's dmg is already at vanilla level since I restored it after I redid their HP. DR dps should be at vanilla levels.

11. Disagree with nerfing elite troops, for obvious reasons. Elite troops are supposed to be worth more than grunts. They do not wtfpwn grunts like in WA because (1)they have max cap and are very few in number, (2)they're not ridiculously buffed/cheap/fast/spammable. I highly doubt massed plasma cannot kill Nobz squads. It is not strange that they survive when masses of sluggas shield them, which is always my experience. Exclusion of PSM and Oblits is also strange; do they receive more damage when broken, like Horrors?

--> PSM/Oblits take more damage when broken correct. The complain I've been hearing is that big squads of tough units are simply too good since even against mass plasma they manage to close into CC and reinforce fast enough to keep the squad viable. Essentially this just makes these squads more vulnerable to morale attacks and will encourage more intelligent use of elite troops - elite troops are the biggest spam culprit in the game except for mass plasma (which has been rather severely dealt with). This is only a nerf if you don't use your troops well and I'd personally like to give it a go and see how it plays gameplay wise - if it sux then we'll remove it next release.

Cheers again mlai

Discussion point for all:
- Do 1v1 DoWpro games often get to T3? How is the pacing of the game from T2 onwards? Are heavy vehicles reached too soon or are vehicle masses available too early? Does T3 finish too quickly and why?
--> I want your analysis peeps

Why is Korbah asking this? wtf???
- I was really interested after I devised the modified eldar pop system to make the other races much more interesting too AS WELL as making the pacing and feel of T2/3 better if required. Gen scaling worked a treat in making T1/1.5 a WHOLE lot better (and we're going to keep refining that) but I appreciate that one solution such as gen scaling might not solve later tier pacing issues as well.
- I'm considering scaling vehicle pop power costs for csm/sm and also making waaaagh banner 1's add less vehicle cap (making waaaagh 2/3's add cap instead). This is a work-in-progress theory and as Number 5 would say: "NEED INPUT".

I'm committed to making every single aspect of DoWpro, every tier and every moment 100% on the ball so here's you're call to action. Comment on gameplay and T2/3pacing, get involved in the requests I posted above and above all remember that I appreciate everything you do for DoWpro and remember that everything that moves DoWpro forward makes it better for you.

[mlai]

After the discussion/explanations, I've no problem with this latest batch of changes, except 2 things:

(1) Nerf Term Assault Cannon to level of Oblits... Why? I've just delayed Termies to late tier 2, later than Chap. Again, an Oblit cannon is only 25-35% better than a regular stormbolter. That's a weakass tier 3 HW, for something that's max 2 in a cap 3 squad.

(2) Nerf WB2 range to turrets range... I do not agree for reasons stated. Outside of its cost, turrets are expendable. WBs, especially WB2s, are not. I do agree with True that WB2s can be delayed, such as post-PoG. A small req increase is also reasonable... +15 req.

The only thing a range-nerf would do, is allow SM/CSM to sit just outside its range and pepper it with HB fire for free. Woot. Great balance. Back to the old "sluggas must now charge and die in order to save the building that's being outranged by camping HB squads" of vanilla 1.3.

There's a reason SM/CSM/Eldar turrets have a shorter range: Their armies do not fear camping HB squads sitting outside the turret's range. They have their own DRs/HBs who can chase away campers. Orkz... can... charge... and they must if they want to save their tech, if the range gets nerfed. So Orkz can spend an extra 50/50 just to buy a building that still gets outranged by HBs and sluggas still must die to save it by offering up flesh shields?

(3) Third issue... if you're going to make tier 3 elite troops *this* vulnerable to anti-morale weaponry, then perhaps you can finally remove the max cap limit to elite infantry. I've always hated max cap limit as an artificial limiter, and favor more a strategic way to punish spamming players. A LOT of ppl feel this way as well, and look down on DOWpro as a noob-job for using cap limits, even though WA suffers greatly from spam. I think this morale-vulnerability of tier 3 troops could be the strategic/tactical weakness we've been looking for.

=========================================
I compared tactical marine heavy weapons vs current terminator assault cannon. Now I'm even more convinced that the cannon does not need nerfing.

I looked at dps of tac plasma vs term cannon. Vs heavy_inf, cannon is 85% better vs med and 79% better vs high.

Tac HB vs term cannon. Vs inf, cannon is 59% better vs med and 86% better vs high.

In conclusion, a terminator cannon is like a slightly-worse combination of 2 tac plasmas or 2 tac HBs, against their respective counters. Not taking into account the platform, 2 plasmas > 1 cannon, and 2 HBs > 1 cannon.

Remember a termie squad can only have 2 HW. Also remember termies' cannon DOES NOT benefit from armoury optics upgrades (I'm going by memory).

So, a dedicated tac HW squad has better damage output than a termie cannon squad, but the termies cannon squad is more versatile vs infantry types, and is a more durable platform.

Looks like a VERY reasonable tier 3 HW to me.

[Takalth]

I've always hated max cap limit as an artificial limiter, and favor more a strategic way to punish spamming players. A LOT of ppl feel this way as well

Put me on the list of people who feel that way. I hate the cap thing.

[BoRT]

i strongly disagree making elite infantry (even) more vulnerable to morale .. they're .. well .. elite you know?^^

seriously: termies already get outperformed in dmg for cap matters by marines .. by far. you buy them bc of their durability and good allround dmg. dont nerv that. its a good thing (and they're dam scary expensive and the reinforce time is like weeks). about nobs .. well .. w/ full mob bonus they're scary ^^
oblits : no clue, games vs. chaos somehow always end in late tier1/early tier2 ^^

[Tod]

I dislike that squad limits, but I would dislike elite troops having bad morale even more, it feels just stupid. One possibility (which sadly isn't possible for Orks) would be using the Ork resource as an elite squad cap somehow. If you need it to build an elite unit and regain it only very slowly (depending how far into the game you are, more elites late game, since now you can get some capped troops at T2/T2.5 and later get more kinds which also have a cap), there will be no elite spam.

Today is also the first day of my christmas holidays, I might try to do a nice manual during them, I just need some guys to read it looking for mistakes and pointing out all the traits of the units.

[Fuct]

I'm in favour of elite squad caps. That is simply because I believe there is no possible way of making a player want to build one or two elite squads, but not wanting a third or fourth. It's simple. If I train one elite squad instead of a standard squad (Nobs instead of Sluggas and Terminators instead of Marines are the best examples), I do it because I expect it to perform better than the standard squad. If I decide that the standard squad performs better, I buy the standard squad. The next time I train a squad, I decide precisely the same way.
That is exactly why:
1. in pre-WA vanilla DoW, Terminators were rather rare. Fully equipped Marines were better in almost every aspect. So why build Terminators?
2. in WA games post T3, Marines are rare, but Terminators are flooding the battlefield. Terms are simply better in almost all aspects than Marines, so why build Marines?

The solution which DoWPro implements pretty well: As soon as I am able to build elite squads, I do so because they perform better in most occasions. But I am not able to field and elite-only army, because there are squad limits.


On the topic of T2/T3:
I've always had the feeling that T3 makes most games degenerate a bit. It's almost like another game. In T1/2, resources are vitally important, whereas in T3, spamming troops and fighting becomes much more important than resource management.
This has many reasons, of course. One is that resources are practically infinite. Another problem is the domination of vehicles over infantry. Especially crowd controllers like Defilers en masse, LLRs, Whirlwinds to a lesser degree because they are dedicated artillery, and finally and most decisively Fire Prisms. It is extremely hard to beat 4 or more Fire Prims (team games) with infantry alone.

I think that would make for an interesting experiment: remove all artillery weapons (trakk grenade lobber, Defiler battle cannon, Prism AoE etc.) from DoWPro and find out how T3 battles feel different.
----------------------------
/Edit:
I'd like to contribute to the manual. I'm mainly an SM player, so I could deliver some unit descriptions.
What do you think of making the manual HTML-based? Detailed descriptions for each unit (requirements, preferred enemies etc.).
I'd be willing to propose a layout, if you want me to.

[Tod]

HTML is certainly a good idea, as it will be an exclusivly electronic manual. The most important part will be a good background, as it contributes the most to a professional look.

I think we should make a unit breakdown roughly like this:
-Name&Icon
-Short description (role, etc.)
-Some basic values (cost, time, squad size, position in tech tree)
-Basic Weapons (with short description)
-HWs (with short description)
-Upgrades effecting the unit
-Special traits (like scaling, special abilities etc.)
-Squad Leader info (description on general role, weapons and abilities)
-maybe some tips like that CSM should better CC SM because your HWs are less effective then theirs due to upgrades (It is like this, right? SM HW seem to be affected by Target Finders.)

Is the pop cap and Orky Resource cost of an Ork tied directly together, or is it possible to give them two different values?

[n0z3k1ll3r]

Make Elite units do different jobs to standard units. In which case neither is "better" than the other because they don't overlap.

[Aron_DeTomado]

so why build Marines?

Because they have MLs. Another factor would be cost-effectiveness: Marines should be more cost effective wile termies should be capeffective(or was it the other way round?). I'm not sure if this is present in DoWpro since I don't play SM, though.
I personally see unit caps as "lazy mans balance" or, as mlai put it, artificial limiters.

[Korbah]

On the manual - it will eventually be fully integrated into the stats site....a complete DoWpro reference. However, its best to write the manual now so that we don't have to worry about it later. If you only want to add one race or a few unit descriptions then that's great - I'd prefer I got a small but excellent quality submission than a big mediocre writeup.

On the term AC - you've convinced me for now mlai, leave as is (1.49 stats)

On WB2 - the +15req and post PoG seems a better idea gameplay wise than the range change. Lets try that instead.

On morale for elite units. Some good arguments all round....I think I'm going to leave the cap AND leave in the broken penalty. But I got thinking....why should elites have the morale woes? Lets make ALL non-daemon units reinforce 50% slower when broken - I think this will finally establish breaking morale as a critical gameplay strategy. I'm leaving daemons out of this since they have the take more damage penalty instead and I think differentiating the daemon armour class is a good thing in terms of character and gameplay dynamic.

The broken morale reinforce hit will limit those protracted and lame battles where the guy who has the most req to reinforce wins - morale will become the key gameplay component I've always wanted it to be. No longer will we see mass HB's or mass plasma......and we won't see mass flamers either since poor dmg but broken morale doesn't mean kills. I'd like to try this change and see if the gameplay reacts positively.

[Takalth]

My theory on what terminators should be:

Very solid core, all-around unit. (which is fairly accurate to fluff).
Basically, tacticals with heavy weapons will beat terminators at their specialized role (ie, missile marines beat terminators for cost vs. buildings/vehichles. HB marines beat terminators for cost vs. light infantry), but terminators will beat tacticals at every other role.
That way, having a couple terminator squads in an army will make a solid flexible core that will allow you to better deal with shifts in tactics from your opponent. However, an all-terminator army will lose to the appropriate hard counter (reapers, plasma, etc.).

[Korbah]

just quickly mlai after reading some of your posts in the dowpro forum:

- DR dps should be exactly the same as vanilla dow dps
- the broken morale penalty for elites (and now all non-daemon troops) is a 50% slower reinforce.....not "no reinforce at all"
- can you investigate if:
a) units in transports can heal at x4 hp/sec (to make transport use better)
b) allow units in transports to reinforce (this is rather unlikely but worth checking ne way)
- Is trukk rampage timers the same as rhino smoke launchers? I remember them to recharge rather quickly - faster than smoke launchers at any length. I'd say that they should be the same timers if they aren't already.
- there are reports that shee warshout hurts their morale too.
- do you think stikkbombs need a stun effect too like frags (3sec stun)
- what is the current waaaagh value of trukks? I hear reports that they're OP since a) building dps (now fixed) and b) come too early and c) rampage too often (see earlier smoke launcher timer request)

--> essentially trukks are supposed to be available at the same time as rhino's. Certainly not earlier since they're arguably a lot better. If the current waaaagh requirement is too early can you adjust it accordingly plz mlai.

btw mlai thanx heaps on this release - its been damn big with a truly comprehensive list of changes and I know you got mucked around a bit. However, I think the addition of the new morale penalties, the reworking of the eldar cap system (and thus making multiple SS's a much more viable and intuitive solution), the many many small dps changes, monster_med countering system rework and all those bug fixes are going to pay off. I'm just shitty I'm not going to be able to play since I think this version of DoWpro is going to knock ppl's sox off!

Cheers,

- Korbs

ps. don't forget guys to check my "Things To Do Christmas Wish List/Request List" and contribute something. I'm away from home and need christmas goodies!!! Anims, manual, logo work - its all gonna r0xor my stocking

[Tod]

I'm leaving daemons out of this since they have the take more damage penalty instead and I think differentiating the daemon armour class is a good thing in terms of character and gameplay dynamic.

Oblits are becoming more and more demonic as it seems, they are still heavy_high, but will have all the traits exclusive to demons if they don't get the reinforce nerf which is quite logical since they also take the extra damage while broken.
So, why not change them to demon armor? Demon_high would be the most fitting, how would DPS be affected by this change?
BTW; Oblits are described with the sentence "they are an amalgam of Marine, Daemon and armour, each part inseparable from the rest." on the GW site, so making them a demon would also fit fluffwise.

[Excedrin]

Changing oblit armor type seems pointless to me. tp_monster_high is the best armor in the game, so it's definitely not the right choice. Changing to tp_monster_med makes them take more damage against most weapons and they probably don't need a nerf so their HP would need to be adjusted.

Anyway, in my opinion, armor types are annoying and contribute nothing except needless complications. It would be simpler to remove all of the "duplicate" armor types and end up with tp_light_infantry (most eldar/ork stuff, scouts, cultists), tp_heavy_infantry (marines, nobs, MANs, oblits, terms, psm, horrors), tp_monster (for bloodthirster, squig, avatar), tp_vehicle (for all vehicles and buildings) and scale all weapons and health to achieve the right effect than to balance 12 armor types, especially when most of the damage is scaled somewhat linearly anyway. A simple armor system doesn't mean the game is simple, Starcraft only has 3 armor types and 3 damage types and it took years to get the balance right.

The goal should be to make a game that's intuitive and balanced. It's not intuitive that demons are hurt more by fire than light infantry.

[Tod]

Changing oblit armor type seems pointless to me. tp_monster_high is the best armor in the game, so it's definitely not the right choice. Changing to tp_monster_med makes them take more damage against most weapons and they probably don't need a nerf so their HP would need to be adjusted.

Concerning balance actions you are certainly right, I meant to point out that Oblits act like a demon unit, but aren't ingame.

BTW, how has Starcraft different armor types? Do you mean the unit sizes effecting damage?

[mlai]

Don't expect 1.50 this weekend, guys. There's a lot of changes I have to make, and I won't be here over the long weekend. But 1.49.1 is pretty good so you guys should be ok.

Korbah, I noticed Termies are included in the Optics upgrades. Should I weaken or remove the upgrades for the Assault Cannon? The optics upgrades didn't benefit Assault Cannon in vanilla; perhaps this is why the cannon feels better in pro.

The WB2 twin shoota has a range of 30. The tac HB has a range of 35(!). Obviously, there is no range nerf needed. Ppl just need to learn to use cloaked scouts or skulls for spotting (tacs have a sight range of 25... that's the "problem").

Come on guys. You're too spoiled. Before you ask for a nerf, look for a way around the problem through gameplay.

No Stikkz should not stun, because Orkz are Orkz. I think they're fine.

I disagree with Excedrin. I feel the armor types allow more flexibility. The only problem is Relic didn't standardize the weapons/armor tables during the creation of DOW, so now nothing is intuitive. Mirage Knight et al claim to be completely rewriting the tables so that everything makes sense and standardized. That's the way Relic should've gone in the first place.

[KuRtCoS]

Hi there!

Just a little suggertion/petition/question:

Would it be possible to have an option in the installer(like the key bindings one) to choose which voice set(Dow or WA) do I want for Chaos Lord? I like the WA's one, it sounds much more... 'brutal'.

If not, can anyone point me in the direction to learn how to change them?

Thx a lot.

Enjoy your holidays!

[mlai]

Hey Korbah, I think you have to rethink the reinforce penalty for broken morale.

It's bad enough for shooty troops, but it's gonna be absolute death for Orkz. One of the main strength of Orkz is their unkillable numbers and fast reinforcement causing massive disruption of shooty enemies. You take that away, and Orkz will just DIE.

While a broken shooty squad is rendered ineffective in vanilla, Orkz continue fighting even when broken. For the sole purpose of disruption. This is a fundamental Ork tactic. You can't take this away when you've already taken away their morale immunity mob bonus.

I'll leave the morale modifier thing until you comment on this.

However, if you insist on toying with this modifier, then this is my suggestion for exceptions:

1. Demon units don't get this modifier.
2. Cultists don't get this modifier.
3. Slugga/Shoota/Storm/TB get a 20% req increase modifier instead, when broken.

But overall, I don't like the idea. It's a real massive change.

I suggest this alternate plan:

1. This is only for Nobz/MANz/Term/AT.
2. When broken, they move faster like now.
3. When broken, they do not lose as much accuracy. Multiplier is 0.5 rather than 0.2.
4. They reinforce 50% longer.

[n0z3k1ll3r]

Some mechanics I'm putting in Rebirth that might interest you guys:

I'm making orks reinforce faster in combat, slower out of combat. Essentially orks are rewarded for fighting, but are slower to mass outside of combat, leading to the sort of "wave upon wave" approach that I envision orks as using.

Eldar by contrast reinforce slower in combat, as well as reinforcing for more than they cost to buy. Essentially this should see Eldar being used as a hit and run guerilla style of army, making things like FoF, Webway Shroud and Relocate a necessity rather than an unused luxury like at the moment.

[Korbah]

mlai:

The "fighting on as a meat shield" once broken is a game mechanic I dislike since the units function extremely well as meat shields with no penalty. Sure DPS is lower but that's it - there really isn't much reward for breaking the morale.

This change is not game shifting - it will subtly limit the effectiveness of meatshielding broken troops. Essentially you won't be able to tie up units as long with your broken req sink unit. This is something I fundamentally agree with - broken units should be clearly less effective at both combat and survivability. ATM only combat is affected - this won't be as sweeping a change as you might think. In fact I believe it will make combat less decisive with more retreats and thus extend the average game length and potentially allow later tier matches - something that I'd like to be more achievable in DoWpro.

WA imho does one thing well - it allows 1v1 games to actually get through some tiers. DoWpro atm seems to hit T1.5 almost everygame and T2 most games. However, T2.5/T3/Late T3 are relatively uncommon - If I can devise game mechanics that allow for a better gameplay progression without the hated "streamlining" of WA (aka keep the gameplay technical and deep whilst allowing for full tier progressions within reason - then I will).

On that note I'd like to reiterate my request for more thought and insight into DoWpro's T2/3. I think gen scaling at +15 will work nicely to control T1.5 and early T2 however, I feel that supporting solutions will be required to get the continuity that atm I sense is lacking. I'm primarily considering pop changes to all races - taking inspiration for a more flexible and open ended solution like the new eldar pop system AS WELL as subtle combat alterations dealing with morale.

Feel free to provide your own insight.

Remember its easy to balance - what's hard is getting the gameplay dynamics right. I feel the broken reinforce modifier to be a positive thing gameplay wise. If orks are adversely affected then I'll rebalance them around the new gameplay mechanic.

As for exemptions to the modifier: I think only horrors, oblits and psm will at this stage be exempt. I've considered your argument about boyz/cults but I'd like to go ahead anyway and see how the new dynamic works in a gross sense before tweaking individual unit exceptions.

[Takalth]

I think gen scaling at +15 will work nicely to control T1.5 and early T2 however, I feel that supporting solutions will be required to get the continuity that atm I sense is lacking

One possible solution might be to make the universal generator upgrades give more energy, since the first isn't available until t2 and the second until t3. That should meet both requirements, I would think.

[mlai]

I think what he means is T2.5/3 gets too much power (in relation to tier 1.5), not too little.

Broken reinforce modifier will empower vehicles, as if those weren't powerful enough already. They're also a bitch to code in AE. I'm not looking forward to that. If someone wants to do that gruntwork, be my guest.

[Takalth]

If that's the case, then the opposite of my suggestion should get the job done (though I may disagree with too much power in late game, as I'm always starved). On the other hand, I haven't gotten an opportunity to play DOWPro in teams, yet, which might make a different story.

[Korbah]

mlai you should be able to rather quickly edit the .luas to make the modifier work - make the change once in the AE (sbps, morale broken modifiers --> reinforce modifier) and just copy paste to each squad's .lua

Btw I noticed in the dowpro forums you changed DR range.....can you restore my changes plz - DR's scaled to 35 range at about T1.5-T2 from their base of 31. It was mainly to make DR's a weaker T1 choice since they were too good compared to shees. The power cost is to offset their lower req cost which was a buff despite the lower HP.

I also noticed you've changed the vyper missle cost - what other changes have you made out of curiosity?

If you could make mention of changes you want to make rather than just changing them I'd appreciate it since we're not always of the same mind - I'm able to use the internet almost every day atm so listing changes you want to make shouldn't be much of a delay.

[mlai]

1. DR range changed to 35. I wasn't aware there's an upgrade that restores them from 31 to 35.

2. DR squad gets 1 more member after Eldar tier 2 research. Total 6 DRs + Exarch at max.

3. Vyper missile cost/time changed to vanilla 1.4's.

That's it. Which one of these do you want changed back?

[Korbah]

number 1 since it scales to 35 anyway - it was mainly to make DR's pre-HB less uber

Number 2 I'm undecided - any particular rationale for this change?

Number 3. what are the cost differences here - its getting hard to remember costs of weapons after 5weeks of not playing :P

Can someone please list here the full pop system and its numbers for each race except IG.

So starting pop, pop upgrade costs and how much pop they add/waaagh banners and aspect portal costs and the pop they add.

I'm trying to rework the pop system for each race to create a more macro intensive T2/3 environment for all races (similar to how I reworked eldar pop system) - additionally I'm going to use the pop system to control the speed of access to large vehicle pops.

Also mlai - can you stop the power scaling of eldar soul shrines. Only scale the req down.

also how did the infiltration tests go? does making a building the requirement of an ability still cause crashes....I hope not since it'd be awesome to be able to have streamlined infiltration and will fit with my IG plans too

[mlai]

1. OK will change back to 31 (provided I find this "upgrade to 35" you're talking about...). Sometimes you leave bugs.

Edit: I found that the DR Exarch research gives DRs +3 to range. And the Exarch himself gives DR +1 to range. Ok.

2. Gave DRs 1 more member after tier 2 in order to help Eldar infantry against other races' late infantry, which are all heavy_med/hi or monster_med. Because plats suck (compared to vanilla). Banshees/commanders may got some buff, but Eldar is still primarily shooty race.

3. Pro Vyper missile costs nearly twice the req and power (80/60 or something) as vanilla Vyper missile, but takes 15 secs to build. Vanilla missile takes 20 secs. I figured the expense for such a fragile vehicle is prolly a leftover from Vyper squad days.

4. Will change SS.

5. Infiltration works with required_structure. Your wish granted.

6. Still can't spawn/reinforce from inside Rhino. Tried healing but doesn't seem to work either.

7. Do you want Terminator Assault Cannon to receive optics upgrades? Currently I decreased their upgrades to 10% for both upgrades, unlike the tac HWs which get 15% and 20%.

8. Oh I forgot. I removed Raptors from benefiting from furious charge upgrade. I figured this is from pre-Zerk days.

9. Oh and I gave Rangers long rifles 35 range, like in vanilla.

[mlai]

====================================================

All of the changes and bugs from here and from DOWpro forum has been finished/fixed.

After Korbah gives his final opinions, I'm gonna give 1.50 to Excedrin for packaging into installer.

[f4lx]

i cant wait to play this patch buddy!
awesome work! especially the infiltraion thingy!
this will be one of the finest patches!
once i can download i ll inform all the forums.
keep up the good work!
f4lx over

[LarkinVB]

I uploaded my latest AI (small tweaks + fixes), available at the sticky AI thread in the DoWpro forum. Please include it with DoWpro 1.5.

[Korbah]

1. thanx

2. Fair point but T2 is too early. Make it T2.5 + vyper + wraithlord stone. That's about the time at which the added DR is warranted balance wise imho.

3. 40/30 @ 15secs is probably a reasonable timer and cost considering the fragility of the vyper. Well spotted.

4. Will change SS. thanx

5. Infiltration works with required_structure. Your wish granted. WOOT!!!! - so you can remove all the infiltration research icons completely and just use the structures as the requirements making infiltration become available seamlessly once you get the required structure.....if so that's awesome. Infiltration is a great feature but the clunky implementation irritated me.

6. Still can't spawn/reinforce from inside Rhino. Tried healing but doesn't seem to work either. Bugger.....still you got infiltration which is the important one imho.

7. Do you want Terminator Assault Cannon to receive optics upgrades? Currently I decreased their upgrades to 10% for both upgrades, unlike the tac HWs which get 15% and 20%. Make the upgrade 10% lvl1 and 15% lvl2 - I think that you should still get some benefit from teching regardless of the power of the weapon.

8. Oh I forgot. I removed Raptors from benefiting from furious charge upgrade. I figured this is from pre-Zerk days. iirc it was only a 10% buff to rap and no charge modifiers - which considering I upped the power cost of furious charge I felt was justified (also if you remove this buff serkers become almost identical in dps to raps when fully teched for a tidy cost saving).

9. Oh and I gave Rangers long rifles 35 range, like in vanilla. Justified - however, can u make it range 30 pre-SS and then 35? IMHO eldar dominated in vanilla partially because they had such great range off the bat in T1/0.....scaling has eliminated this unfair advantage and allows eldar to remain competitive later on.


Overall I'm pretty DAMN excited about this release. With larkin's uber new AI code and the massive host of 1.50 tweaks I think we're going to get something special.

I'm still going to investigate the use of vehicle and infantry pop as a method of controlling the pace and dynamic of T2/3 (similar to how I have reworked the T1/1.5 dynamic through gen scaling). I've decided that pop changes are the way to go since I can introduce both gameplay implications for the player through the use of a pop tech "choice" ie. using soft cap vs hard cap aka sarg vs research whilst also scaling the availability of vehicles. I'm aiming for readily available initial vehicle cap (say the first 4 pop) but from there cap becomes increasingly difficult to get and maintain - this will limit the amount of vehicles on the field particularly in T2 and thus decrease the decisiveness of T2 combat --> thus creating longer games and more readily achieved T3's. T3 will also be graduated into a T3 and T3.5 style affair.

However, I'm still waiting for a detailed info list on all the DoWpro race's pop system so I can calculate the numbers (I can't 100% remember all the costs). I need costs, timers, effects (how much inf/veh cap) for all race's pop system as well as the tiering costs and timers. Also eldar stone costs would be nice as would SS cost. This is not a 1.50 change - 1.50 is essentially completed and will need compiling, beta testing and then full release and detailed synopsis.

great work everyone I can't wait to hear how 1.50 fares.

[BoRT]

i'm pretty damn exited how this patch will play, imo it's great work.

HOWEVER i'd strongly advice not to connect a multitude of small unit upgrades to non-related techs - like the reaper-wraithlord connection. making units better though tiering is a good option, as is grants immidiate benefits for expensive upgrades AND IS CLEARLY UNDERSTANDABLE by the player. having specific unit uprades affect OTHER units as well (without toolbox hints in the worst case, but thats not the point) on the other hand makes the mod foggy and complicated - RTS games (the good ones) live from balance as well as from clear visibilty of unit fighting power/utility. creating tech trees which lead to effects which are impossible to be recognized in-game by the opponent (and maybe by the player as well), you will have "wtf why is this happening?!" situations in the game which is ABSOLUTELY CONTRAPRODUCTIVE for gameplay and WILL prevent players from joining he mod. let it be. connect "hidden" upgrades to key techs, like tiers. not to something totally unrelated.

other thing, korbah: i'm looking forward to your cap plans. i think they will very positively affect gameplay and tier balance.

everybody : keep it up! nice work u do there

[mlai]

1. +1 member to DR squad now requires FD gem addon.

Edit: I agree with Bort. I propose using the "Annihilate The Enemy" research icon to introduce all the late-tier random upgrades, such as the extra man for DRs, the Banshee charge buffs, and the hidden range increase for WSs.

2. Vyper missile upgrade costs 30req/ 25pow/ 20sec, same as DOW 1.4 vanilla.

3. Termie cannon gets 10% from 1st Optics, 15% from 2nd.

4. Raptor chainsword gets 10% from Furious Charge.

5. Ranger Long Rifle range goes from 30 to 35 with building of Soul Shrine (exclusive modifier). Note, Soul Shrine destruction means rifle goes back to 30.

To Orkz:

Be wary when getting the Nob Leader Power Klaw. It's not a downgrade like in DOW, but it ain't much better.

NL's choppa after both choppy upgrades:

tp_infantry_low 35.1
tp_infantry_med 54.167
tp_infantry_high 39
tp_infantry_heavy_med 46.8
tp_infantry_heavy_high 36.11
tp_monster_med 47.77
tp_monster_high 2.34
tp_commander 23.81
tp_vehicle_low 11.91
tp_vehicle_med 8.55
tp_vehicle_high 2.34
tp_building_low 39
tp_building_med 15.6
tp_building_high 8.64

NL's power klaw after both choppy upgrades:

tp_infantry_low 35.71
tp_infantry_med 55.12
tp_infantry_high 39.68
tp_infantry_heavy_med 47.62
tp_infantry_heavy_high 36.74
tp_monster_med 48.6
tp_monster_high 5.63
tp_commander 24.22
tp_vehicle_low 18
tp_vehicle_med 14.17
tp_vehicle_high 5.62
tp_building_low 46.3
tp_building_med 18.52
tp_building_high 10.288

OK, so at least it's not weaker in anti-infantry, and it's a little better against vehicles and buildings, right? If you have the money, might as well, right? Well consider this.

Pros:
1. Does ONE more dps against most infantry types, woot.
2. Does SIX - SEVEN more dps against low vehicle/building types, woot.

Cons:
1. 150 req, 100 pow, 60 secs (ONE MINUTE TYING UP YOUR POG).
2. Available on a unit that's not as good as the vanilla one, and need a squad size prerequisite (you can have less of them).
3. Available at same time as your betta rokkit research, which costs you 25 req 25 pow 45 secs. Guess which is better for vehicle/building dps?
***4. Your choppa does not have a 1 sec setup time on a melee weapon.***

Korbah, I think I know what you were thinking for the NL klaws... make them same as choppas except with better AV and anti-LP2. Problem is, the reward is miniscule for a 150/100/60 research, and the klaw setup time completely kills its tiny dps advantage (except against LP2... but then rokkit research is every bit better). Especially considering I'd really be using NL squads as anti-infantry anyways, the klaw is still a downgrade.

I don't like upgrades that are actually downgrades or "newbie traps." If it's an universal upgrade, then it should be clearly better. Not better in 1 situation but worse in 99 others.

Less than 1 dps better than choppa_nob, against most infantry types?? Come on, WTH. Compare that to the power weapon upgrades of Sergeants and Champions, which have fair (as in substantial) damage increases. And they're not even melee troops.

IMO, the klaw should have (1) equal or bigger multiplier than the rest of the ork weapons, (2) elimination of the setup time with the 2nd choppy upgrade.

I'll hold onto 1.50 until Korbah comments on Annihilate The Enemy (or something similar) and on NL power klaws.

Add:

WTF is this shit?!? The Dread just *charged* at me. When the **** did this get added? If nobody knows, I'm removing it.

(If I just never noticed it before...) I don't care if you give Dreads back their HPs. Dreads charging is ridiculous. They're supposed to be slow damage sinks.

And Eldar Entanglement FX is broken. AGAIN. WTF. Leave the bug fixing to me, ok?

[Excedrin]

1) 1 DPS increase is still an increase, PoGs are cheap, maybe it's worth making two of them if you're going for klaws and other upgrades. The way DoWpro Orks are now, I don't see the point in getting any infantry upgrades, at least in most matchups.
2) edit: I thought that dreads have always had charge modifiers, but now after checking, I don't know when it was added. At the least, a 30% charge modifier was in DoWpro 1.48.
3) Nobody else has been modifying anything (at least not Korbah or I as far as I know), so I have no idea how entanglement fx could be broken.