DoWpro 1.51 for Winter Assault released - Eldar revisited.

[mlai]

I'm cranky when I find out I have to spend another hour looking for a reason why something I fixed months ago turns up broken again.

Anyways, I fixed it.

It costs me a lot of time when changes are made without my knowledge. It's only a balance concern for Korbah, but it's a nasty bug concern for me. As illustrated by the repeat Entangle bug. I spent an hour hunting for some hidden change I didn't make. Prolly added by Korbah before he left Australia, then.

NL "power" klaw:
This research costs 150/100/60. Comparable with SM/CSM combined leader melee researches. Yet it offers a downgrade for anti-infantry (due to setup) and a miniscule upgrade (6-7 dps max) vs vehicles and buildings. Newbie traps should only exist in broken crap like WA (powerfists).

Dread charge:
Dreads are supposed to be easily danced - that's why they have tons of HPs and upgradable to cannons at sacrifice of 1 arm.
Now we feel bad it only has 2004 HPs so we give it a charge? I don't agree with changing something for the sake of change. Give it back some HPs if you feel it's too weak. A walker charging looks so weird. It also takes away the entire point of its arm cannon and arm flamer - it won't use these things when it has a charge function, that's the way the game's coded. Dreads are supposed to disrupt and tank, and kill some troops if the opponent is asleep. And don't forget they can **DS** later on. It doesn't need a charge.

[f4lx]

dread not should have a charge function. they are slow heavy amored walkers and always were. i dont feel good if they get a fast charge possibility which is not resonable and most players would dislike this change.
till now we hadn t any complaimnts about dreds beeing bad so let them as they were and finish this patch for god's sake. ^^
cya all

[Tod]

I agree with the removal of the dread charge, there are also many other units being able to charge in DOWpro, which sometimes feels a bit strange (I could swear that Termies charge too, I'd think that charging should be unique to CSM in the SM/CSM comparison aside from Litany of Hatred, since SM already have the ranged advantage).

[mlai]

Korbah, plz comment on these:

1. "Annihilate The Enemy" (or some other icon) research to lump all the odd/loose Eldar upgrades together, so it makes more sense. See Bort's post.

2. Do you want Support Portal to give +2 support cap, or +3 support cap?

3. Dreadnaught charge disables its cannons and flamers because it charges all the time. And it's the only walker with DS. How about removing charge and giving it +500 HPs, or making its gun addon cheaper?

4. NL klaw should get the same (or better) damage-increase modifier as other ork weapons. Right now it's a downgrade in anti-infantry, and a very-negligible upgrade in AV/AB. If you think it's too good, make it post-Fort just like Nobz klaws (which actually makes sense).

[Andkat]

I concur. Dreadnought HP should be buffed, currently I always take Hellfires unless I am DESPERATE for a temporary CC walker.

[Korbah]

@mlai:

Plz don't get angry at me m8 - I nefver intended to screw the entangle FX and iirc you hadn't fixed the anim before I sent u my .luas. I haven't touched a piece of code in 5-6 weeks. And with stuff like nob klaws I do obviously stuff up - not having DPS's at the time meant it was easy to make mistakes.


1. "Annihilate The Enemy" (or some other icon) research to lump all the odd/loose Eldar upgrades together, so it makes more sense. See Bort's post.

I like it - it should be a T3 upgrade costing about 120/80/80 (feel free to suggest something else) and grant the extra DR member, WS range upgrade, Extra FD member (so FD's and DR's are the same size squad), and incorporate the shee buff. I think it makes sense and is more logical than magically getting another DR just because you got the wraithlord stone. Additionally I like it as a T3 upgrade for all aspect warriors since in T3 most ppl will be using ALL aspects (hopefully) and having to get multiple upgrades will be too clunky and inefficient at that stage of the game. Excellent suggestion bort.

2. Do you want Support Portal to give +2 support cap, or +3 support cap?

I originally was leaning towards 3 (since afaik that's the default). However, I don't want to overtly encourage support portal spam just to get pop. If you want pop you'll need to get the stones. Lets leave it at +2 like you suggested mlai and see how it plays - fully upgraded that's 5pop per support portal which is imho quite reasonable (and hardy with 3400hp and bonesong/relocate).

3. Dreadnaught charge disables its cannons and flamers because it charges all the time. And it's the only walker with DS. How about removing charge and giving it +500 HPs, or making its gun addon cheaper? Dreadnaughts are a bugger. I HATED dreads in vanilla since a) they came out far to late and cost too much b) were only good spammed c) despite being the smallest walker they were the second most heavily HP'd d) hellfires vs dreads was logically rediculous that the same chassis was 1/2 the HP....wtf

So I redid dreads. And gave them low hellfire HP and a charge mod. I'm happy to remove the charge mod but I'm not going to buff Dreads by +500 HP. Dreads are pretty hardcore fluff wise but a lascannon or rocket pwns them good and that's how I like my dreads to behave. I also want them cheaper and weaker HP wise than defilers. Lets try a +200HP buff for dreadnoughts - I'll reason it as extra armour plating instead of ammo dumps. We'll also remove the charge as you suggest. I still want dread vs hellfire to be a toss-up decision EVERY time you make it. Buffing dread hp too much will make this decision too easy. Lets try +200 and see how it goes.

4. NL klaw should get the same (or better) damage-increase modifier as other ork weapons. Right now it's a downgrade in anti-infantry, and a very-negligible upgrade in AV/AB. If you think it's too good, make it post-Fort just like Nobz klaws (which actually makes sense). I agree, I wanted NL klaws to be buffs like powerfists for sarges - I obviously screwed the dps conversion (I did it ages ago and haven't looked since). I want NL klaws to be deadly stuff but obviously not too insane - mlai feel free to propose some nice anti-inf and AV/AB dps numbers (I don't really want to up commander damage too much....its already bloody good) --> I also suggest we make the research either post mek shop or orky fort as you suggest.

A lot of ppl have been complaining about workers costing pop. I agree that WA has a nice system where no worker costs pop HOWEVER - we can't just remove pop requirements for workers in DoWpro......it'd be instant imba. Why??? because in dowpro scouts rox and thuse 2 extra pop = scout spam rush, bonesingers rox too = more guardian spam. However, all is not lost!

Here's why. Orks and CSM already have 0 pop builders and their T1 is balanced despite this. Also there are max 4 grots and max 5 heretics (also balanced since a) heretics are the most fragile worker and the slowest). Here's how we can have 0pop servs and BS's:

- remove 2 from the starting cap of both eldar and SM
- make both workers 0 pop and max 4

thoughts and suggestions?

btw can someone plz write out a detailed description about the current pop system - i need numbers and timers and effects to make decisions here ppl!!

also feel free to go and consult my xmas wishlist a few pages back - I don't mind late presents

[mlai]

IMO, workers costing pop is a strategic variable. If grots costing pop didn't result in a fatal flaw in the Ork game, I would have them cost pop too. I think it contributes to diversity. I don't think it's something WA does better.

Besides, what you suggest is basically the same thing dressed up in another way. The only ppl who'd be placated by that would be noobs who don't notice.

Looks like ppl are too lazy to figure the tech out for you. How about I just email you the relevant DOWpro luas?

For NL's klaw dps, I think all I'll do is give it the same damage boost % as all other ork choppas in the choppy researches, then require fort upgrade. I'm not going to change the dps; it will be left same as vanilla's.

In vanilla, the only reason the NL klaw kinda sucked was because it didn't benefit from choppy researches.

[Korbah]

thanx mlai - email would be nice. There's no rush tho since this is a rather complex issue and I don't want to hold up 1.50 for it.

IIRC the NL klaw in DoWpro is better than vanilla. Keep the dowpro dps and make choppy upgrades affect it as you suggested (atm it only partially buffs the klaw).

are there any other issues we need to address? or is 1.50 ready to code and test?

l;eave out the worker pop changes for now - its not crucial.

[mlai]

Once I take care of the changes in post #256, I'll give it to Excedrin for installer packaging.

This is what I'm doing for Annihilate The Enemy:

1. Requires all Asp Warrior gems.
2. Researched at Soul Shrine.
3. Cost 120/80/80.
4. The following modifiers are moved into this research...
= DR squad member +1 (from FD gem).
= FD squad member +1.
= Shee squad member +2 (from tier 2 research).
= WS deathspinner range +1 (from tier 2 research).
= Shee charge distance increase (from tier 2 research).
= Shee exarch charge distance increase (from tier 2 research).
= Guardian Warlocks gets the Seer Council conceal, in addition to their normal conceal. This means Guardians still get only normal Conceal (0.75), but the squad Warlocks get 0.75 x 0.75 = 0.5625 range damage reduction.

With this new research, everything is actually bumped to later (tier 2.5). So IMO it shouldn't be any later than that, especially since it's no longer free.

I threw in the little Warlock bonus... cuz if someone still has surviving Guardian squads in 2.5, I think he deserves a pat on the back.

Ok, ok. My real reason for the Warlock bonus...

1. Guardians pay for a lot of researches, all centered on the Warlock.
2. Therefore for all those researches to be worthwhile to buy, Warlocks should be a little more survivable in late tier.
3. One can use skill to keep Warlocks alive against melee, but not much can be done against vehicles. So, a little help for Warlock range-damage resistance in late tier.

[mlai]

1. Vyper spontaniously regenerates HP and benefits from webway healing - removed.

2. Orks: You can research Super 'Eavy Armor Upgrade before researching 'Eavy Armor Upgrade - fixed.

3. Eldar: Seer Council has 4 members, but you still can build gazillions Witchblades for it - fixed.

4. NL synckill not working - fixed.

5. Plasma Battery Upgrade, that's second one in powerplants, doesn't cost any power (every other upgrade of this type does) - This is actually not a bug, but it is a valid complaint. Tweaked.

6. 4 Heavy Weapons for Raptors is a bit too much. - (EDIT) This is left intact. 2 HW default. 4 after research.

8. Need Raptor max squad modifier for both Chaos HQ addons. Done.

9. Oblits and Termies teleport stats tweaked so FX is fully functional (FX seems hardcoded). Oblit teleport is now geared towards attack (long setup but fast getup), while Termie teleport is geared towards escape (short setup moderate getup, less distance).

10.Flamer morale damage after the upgrade is just insane. - Agreed. Reload time has an exponential effect, especially since it's AoE and can't miss. Upgrades are weakened. Snipers are not touched.

11. Most squads now have cool new unique formations. Check it out.

13. Stormboyz now get NL with just 4 boyz in squad.

13. Mob charge bonus should now work for Nobz. Wasn't sure before.

14. Disable BM repair when attached. Now a BM-attached squad should have access to its stikkz.

15. Min Shoota DPS vs building high is rather good… should be nerfed. - Done.

16. Eldar LP gun should have an activation toggle like artillery does. - Done. Currently using Prism's icon.

17. Cult grens: 30% nerf to commander, inf_hvy_med/high, minus 0.5 radius and friendly fire activated. - Done.

19.
******************************
Weapons 15% Nerfed vs monster_med:
- All Chaos bolt pistols.
- Chaos tactical bolter.
- Chaos tactical HB.
- All Chaos knives.
- Eldar warp spiders and exarchs deathspinners.
- Eldar Guardian shurikens.
- All Eldar shurken pistols.
- All Eldar knives.
- Eldar warlock (normal) swords.
- Ork slugga and stormboy choppaz.
- Ork shoota knivez.
- Ork shoota_shoota.
- Ork slugga_slugga/MD/BM/nob/SB/TB.
- Ork warboss shoota.
- All SM bolt pistols.
- SM tactical bolter.
- SM tactical HB.
- SM terminator storm bolters.
- All SM knives.

Weapons 10% buffed vs monster_med:
- Eldar executioner.
- All Eldar witchblades.

All flamers now do 8 dps vs monster_med.
All vehicle flamers/ heavy flamers do 25 dps vs monster_med.
Possessed and Horror flames are not modified vs monster_med.
*******************************

This is the max damage normal flamers can do - I gave them 100% penetration vs monster_med. For flamers to do any more, I have to reconstruct the entire flamer damage chart, and I'm not about to do that. So, currently monster_med has some resistance vs early weapons and HWs, and infantry flamers are a soft counter. Use demons vs Orkz for good effect, but don't expect anything miraculous.

20. FD’s... no setup time, but must be stationary. - Done.

21. I did this for FDs:
+ 20% AV buff, 30% for exarch.
+ 5% AB buff, 10% for exarch.

23. All NL’s: +50 HP, adds 3 mob bonus

24. Eldar support portal stones. Change back to stones instead of researches.

25. Make 2nd support portal not scale in cost.

26. Eldar support portal starts as 2700 HPs. Wraithlord and Vyper gems each add 200 HPs. Prism gem adds 300 HPs.

27. Mines will detonate under infiltrated units. In case you didn't know.

28. FJ in addition to the 1.49 stats:
- the first 10secs reduces damage taken by 30%.
- rallies squad.
- reduces morale dmg taken by 20% from ranged weaponry ONLY.

3. Cultist CC --> 30% buff across the board.

5. T2 for all races decreases mines cost by 10/5.

6. Fire Dragon dps should be 35dps vs monster_med. Exarch does 45 dps vs.

7. buff both term and AT CC dps by 10%

8. Termie cannon range = 30.

9. Ensure stormbolter dps = 2xbolter dps (it's that and more, without me changing anything, so ppl stop complaining about stormbolters).

10. I'm interested in swapping terms and chaplain in the tech tree. - Done. I like this change.

3. I want FD to do 1/3 the morale dps of a regular flamer. Exarch 1/2. - Done.

4. Aspect Portal starts with 700 HPs. DR, WS, Shee gems each add 200 HPs. FD gem adds 300 HPs. For comparison, AP in pro_1.49 has 1000 HPs (doesn't change).

5. FC aura: try increasing it to radius 20 instead of 15. - Done. At first I didn't like it. But then I realized ppl need an incentive to go Artifact first now that they don't get early Termie AC spam. Chap may be just as good but hero and abilities management take more effort.

6. Thermo gens: increase cost to 95 power.

7. Gen scaling: +15 instead of +20.

8. Terms: ensure all moving accuracy penalties are 20% or less (if currently less)

9. Eldar:
- Support stones - all stones add +1 veh pop in addition to the support portal HP buff
- Support portal adds +2 veh pop
- Webways only grant +1/+1 inf/veh pop but cost 80req and scale down 5req each webway
- Aspect warrior stones add +1 inf pop
- Soul shrines add +2/+2 pop and continue to scale down in cost as before

10. Cults: change morale regen to 8.

11. Raptors: change from the HQ increasing the squad size to the sac pit to make them equivalent to berserkers.

1. Can we make trukk dps more reasonable. - Done. Trukkz dps now makes sense. Also, anti-building dps decreased by 1/2.

2. Can we nerf Waaagh banner 2. - Now requires PoG and +15 req more.

3. WS shoot-on-move has only 10% acc (Exarch has 20-25% acc). Teleport stun time now 1 sec (was 1/2 sec).

4. Halve the cost of Warlock Witchblade upgrade from the SS.

5. Ensure SC basic anti-hero dps is increased x2.5 and the witchblade anti-hero dps is doubled. Also buff veh_high dps by 50%.

6. FS witchblade dps: Buff anti-demon dps to inf_hvy_med dps values, buff FS monster_high and vehichle_high dps by 30%.

7. DR stone to be -10 req/+20 power in cost and each DR to cost +5 power.

8. Bionics 2 research for chaos adds a morale buff --> I'd be more comfortable if the buff was given with the serk T3 ability research (forget its name) instead of the bionics.

9. Eldar LP3 - apparently its fire arc is bugged - fixed.

10. Ork LP3/Waaaagh 3 - armor-penetrations reshuffled to be strong AV weak anti-inf.

11. Lets make ALL non-daemon units reinforce 50% slower when broken - done.

12. Is trukk rampage timers the same as rhino smoke launchers? I remember them to recharge rather quickly. - Timer is now 100, compared to 90 for Chaos Rhino and 120 for SM Rhino.

13. There are reports that shee warshout hurts their morale too. - False.

14. Infiltration works with required_structure. No more clicking on research.

2. Vyper missile upgrade costs 30req/ 25pow/ 20sec, same as DOW 1.4 vanilla.

3. Termie cannon gets 10% from 1st Optics, 15% from 2nd.

4. Raptor chainsword gets 10% from Furious Charge.

5. Ranger Long Rifle range goes from 30 to 35 with building of Soul Shrine (exclusive modifier). Note, Soul Shrine destruction means rifle goes back to 30.

6. This is what I'm doing for Annihilate The Enemy:
-> Requires all Asp Warrior gems.
-> Researched at Soul Shrine.
-> Cost 120/80/80.
-> The following modifiers are moved into this research...
= DR squad member +1 (from FD gem).
= FD squad member +1.
= Shee squad member +2 (from tier 2 research).
= WS deathspinner range +1 (from tier 2 research).
= Shee charge distance increase (from tier 2 research).
= Shee exarch charge distance increase (from tier 2 research).
= Guardian Warlocks gets the Seer Council conceal, in addition to their normal conceal. This means Guardians still get only normal Conceal (0.75), but the squad Warlocks get 0.75 x 0.75 = 0.5625 range damage reduction.

7. +200 HP to Dreads. Removed the melee charge.

8. Nob Leader Klaw research moved to post-Fort-upgrade (same time as Nobz klaws). NL Klaw now benefits a lot from choppy upgrades (+20% from each).

[Tod]

Nice changelog! I'm really looking forward to playing 1.5.
Jus a question about the new AtE research. Does it require ALL aspect stones, or is the Fire Dragon Stone not needed?When MfW is what you call Eldar T2, needing the FD stone would push most of those upgrades quite a bit back.

[mlai]

All aspect gems including FD's. This is still earlier than T3 (Prism) which was what Korbah suggested. He'll move this research further back or forward depending on how it plays, I guess.

[Tod]

Ah silly me, thought that FDs still required Prism Stone. Now, that's much more sensible.

[mlai]

Eldar has a very graduated and lenient pop cap system now. Gettin 1 aspect gem, which you'll do anyways, gives you +1 pop. If you get another gem or spend 80 req for 1 webway, you'll get another +1 pop (+1 veh pop from webway). If you build Soul Shrine, you get +2/+2 pop (in addition to a bunch of hidden bonuses from SS - added to help text). And Eldar has always gotten leaders before tier 2, unlike SM/CSM, for their soft pop.

So unlike SM/CSM who has to pay 150 req for massing and has to wait for tier 2 for leaders, Eldar gets more pop from normal teching. Eldar troops are scaled early on to have less members per squad, less range, etc... but they're all back to vanilla strength basically by tier 1.5. They then all get micro-buffs in tiers 2/2.5.

And the 4-webway requirement for Falcons is easy to meet now, thanks to cheap webways, leading to really fast Falcon tech. However, the new vehicle pop system means if you don't build a support portal and just spam Falcons from HQ, you'll prolly only have 6 total veh cap when the first Falcon emerges.

[Korbah]

Damn mlai you've done well!

I think its now a case of beta testing the code and then making the release.

Goddamn I wish I could test it!!!

BTW what is the requirements for FD's?? The support portal? IMHO it should be just the support portal if it isn't already.

Cheers,

Korbs

[Excedrin]

1.50 installer is up for testing.

[f4lx]

come to daddy!

*downloading*

:moo:


dont look for an downloading place cause the inner circle will have some days of testing till we upload it public.

be patience.

thx

[TrueTheReaper]

You might want to edit that Gamedrome ladder a bit, since the link there is still to 1.48

[f4lx]

will do as soon as 1.5 is for public
thx for reminding

[mlai]

Right now, FD gem requires Support Portal, Vyper gem, and Wraithlord gem.

Annihilate The Enemy research requires all asp gems (including FD gem).

I would agree that FDs and AtE should come earlier, such as FD gem only requiring tier 2 research + support portal, nothing else. AtE should still require all 4 asp gems.

Excedrin, if you could make the change and release a patch for the testers? I won't be home this weekend (most likely).

Excedrin, please make sure BM's kustom force field affect all Orky infantry including commanders.

Korbah:

1. Do you want Eldar Fortune to affect only infantry, or all types (infantry, vehicle, building)? In vanilla, it affects everything. Otherwise, for the expensive research it's pretty shitty - radius 15, 10% range reduction. It does stack with other auras, though...

2. Do you want Sluggas at vanilla CC dps, or do you want them 11% weaker (or somethin... I'm going by memory)? You had said give them vanilla CC dps so I did, but then I saw you boosted their bonuses in the more choppy researches... 1.2x and 1.3x instead of 1.15x and 1.2x.

[Excedrin]

Is there a good reason why Fire Dragons (or anything else) should require more than the aspect stone?

It makes sense to me to have it require the stone only, since the stone itself requires other stuff (aspect portal, MfW, soul shrine, etc). The difference is that FD production is more or less vulnerable to losing a building. Right now, I'm leaving it as it was.

Also, as AtE is now, it requires 4 aspect stones and MfW.

I've changed Fortune to affect everything. KFF already affected commanders. FD Exarchs now have no reqs.

[Sweedumz]

Just on the Worker pop cap thing, it's something I'd disagree with.

Workers spend a lot of time doing nothing, and to have them taking up pop cap while doing so is very frustrating. It of course discourages the building of worker units, which is a pity because increased build time/capacity is a tactic in itself. It's not just Eldar who can obtain map control.

It's nice in WA not to have to worry about pop cap when building workers. It feels a lot more natural that workers are made a part of your "economy", as distinct from affecting your frontline capabilities.

On top of that, the late game, post big attack builder that escapes so you can rebuild and keep on fighting might not be able to come around if all your pop cap is taken up with units struggling to defend your base.

As to any issues it would cause, I don't really see that it would. If it causes things like scout rushes, then the solution is simply to nerf scouts in some way, not to use builder pop cap as a kind of stopgap solution.

In short, the game is more fun with zero pop cap builder units.

[mlai]

1. DOW had always had workers take up pop cap. In those days ALL workers took pop cap. It was not imba.

2. Chaos was weak b/c Cultists suck. So Relic made Heretics 0 cap. Everyone hailed the change as an innovation. And a *unique* Chaos trait. This is also a reason I oppose the huge Cultist CC buff in 1.50 (but at least grenades are FF again).

3. Grots costing pop created a fatal flaw in the Ork game. For this reason alone, grots had to be made 0 pop. Grots costing 0 pop also has less ramifications in tier 1 compared to a worker costing 0 cap, so nobody argued.

4. So, workers had always figured into the early game strategies of DOW. It is different from WA, and that's the way it is. You might as well ask for DOWpro power gens to stop scaling in power because it is annoying, and different from DOW.

5. WA is a pile of steaming hot ****.

Your points:

6. Workers costing pop is a natural way to slow down early teching. This has been figured into balance, has been since DOW was created. Heretics build the slowest and are most vulnerable, and will not regen health until tier 2 research is done. So Chaos being able to have more workers (if they can afford it and if you didn't send a single squad of infiltrated scouts in to kill them all) do not make them build faster than you. Orkz... well, grots are more plentiful than you whether or not they cost pop. SM and Eldar build fast and have good workers. DOWpro Eldar has godlike workers.

7. I like your economy being tied with your frontline capabilities.

8. Late game scenario is incorrect. You'll always be able to build workers for escape, unless you've overwatched 4 barracks, in which case it was your own doing. Orkz were the only ones suffering from the fatal flaw of not being able to build grots late game (and not of the player's own doing).

9. My thinking is reversed from yours: the stopgap solution you speak of would be nerfing scouts. Why should scouts be nerfed (and create new balance problems) just so workers can be 0 cap like WA?

I think the "pro" in DOWpro isn't added there just to make the mod sound 133t. It's there for many reasons. DOWpro makes the game more complicated and forces you to coordinate more aspects of your overall theatre. Some ppl prefer the streamlining of WA.

This is all IMHO.

Korbah:

Heretics may need to start costing 1 cap again, now that Chaos tier 1 is changed?

Check my post on this page. http://s14.invisionfree.com/DOWPRO/i...39&st=45&#last

Alternatively, I think Cultists should no longer have the free charge pre-Furious Charge research, now that they have the 30% CC buff.

[Decadence]

Hey guys, long time no see.

Haven't touched DoW at all in a few months due to uni commitments.
Have you got the IG fixed yet?
Any other major changes since I was last here?

[Sweedumz]

If nothing else, the fact that some races workers cost pop cap and others don't is going to create huge problems down the line. Won't no pop worker races be able to field much larger frontline populations? Doesn't this put the races with pop cap on the back foot?

If the enemy can build up their economy, increase their production capacity and field more units than you by virtue of your restricted ability to do so simultaniously, won't this lead to inherent IMBA?

The game is more than about tier 1.

[mlai]

Grots not costing pop is irrelevant. That means 2 extra sluggas, woot. So forget Orkz.

So you're basically complaining about Chaos having 0 cap heretics. There is a reason why vanilla DOW Chaos has 0 cap heretics. Because Cultists suck. Pre 0 cap heretics, Chaos dies to everyone in tier 1. That was the "huge problem."

After Chaos got 0 cap heretics... all was good, for a time.

Then Relic went and made marines massable, and all demons suck... thus came the dark times of the CSM mass.

==============

By the time the game hits tier 2, whether or not your workers are 0 cap no longer matter as much.

==============

I do think Cultists should no longer have charge pre-Furious Charge upgrade, seeing as how Korbah decided they should have a 30% CC buff.

[Sweedumz]

Yet workers costing pop means that late game, where cultists have long since ceased being a factor, Chaos armies can field more Oblits, PSM or what have you and still have four workers out there claiming the field.

Workers having zero pop is something that makes sense. It's less hassl, more fun. Tier 1 rushes are not fun, but it's up to the balance teams to work out how to stop them.

[Tod]

Tier 1 rushes are not fun, but it's up to the balance teams to work out how to stop them.

Rushing is an important strategy and should IMHO never be removed, as it adds much more depth to the game.
Due to unit caps, the only thing that you could get extra would be a CSM/Raptor/Zerker/Horror squad I think, and all those units go down pretty fast against the ranged firepower SM and Eldar can field (although Eldar aren't not 100% tweaked out with their new pop system). Against other Chaos or Orks, it's a zero cap mirror.

Cultist CC buff by 30% seems quite much when you hear it, but I'm not so sure how much difference this will make in the actual game, cultists will still be far from really good, especially with their reinforce modifier, which makes them reinforce slower then CSM when in combat.

BTW, can we expect the release of 1.5 before Monday? I'm going to a LAN, and I would really like to have the new version with me, helps convincing people to play it.

[Elifyno]

i have a question. I am new to this game and i was wondering what is with all the Ork hate from what i have seen is that the orks are sorry in the tier 3 late game but i am new so i dont wished to be flamed. what i am asking is what makes orks so good

[mlai]

IMHO all workers costing 0 pop makes no sense whatsoever, and is only of any balance consequence in tier 1 and in QS. Personally, nobody cares about QS balance.

And DOWpro is *never* about "less hassle."

By making tier 1 massing easier (workers 0 pop), by making it easier to hit a certain level of critical mass, you're asking to remove the significance of the 150 req pop research. In other words, you're asking to remove a strategic variable. You're asking for *streamlining.*

but it's up to the balance teams to work out how to stop them.

It has been worked out.

30% buff does not make Cultists into lil' sluggas. But they by definition should suck, for Chaos to keep the 0 pop Heretics.

Once Korbah answers all of my new questions, it's very easy for Excedrin to have the download ready by Sunday.

[Korbah]

1. Do you want Eldar Fortune to affect only infantry, or all types (infantry, vehicle, building)? In vanilla, it affects everything. Otherwise, for the expensive research it's pretty shitty - radius 15, 10% range reduction. It does stack with other auras, though...

--> yes the farseer alters chance about her thus affecting the enemy's fire. All eldar stuff is affected but obviously inf get the best bonus since it stacks.

2. Do you want Sluggas at vanilla CC dps, or do you want them 11% weaker (or somethin... I'm going by memory)? You had said give them vanilla CC dps so I did, but then I saw you boosted their bonuses in the more choppy researches... 1.2x and 1.3x instead of 1.15x and 1.2x.

I'll leave this up to you mlai - buff it and if sluggas start omfgwtfpwning then i guess nerf it again.

3. About cult charge - yes make it require furious charge considering the buff. However, heretics will remain 0 pop. Cults still goddamn suck dps wise peeps.

About builders costing 0 pop. I like the idea since I agree that in T3 its unfair advantage to chaos vs eg. sm. However, simply adjusting all workers to 0pop will screw T1 balance and make eldar/sm OP. So either mlai implements the system where BS/Serv are max 4 and 0pop and the starting pop of both SM and eldar is reduced to 8 instead of 10 - OR we leave as is in 1.50 and worry about it later. Your call mlai.

btw FD's should be stone + support portal only.

[Excedrin]

While testing 1.50, I noticed that the Mek Shop only requires 60 pop. That's "only" as in, there are no other requirements.

I don't know if that affects 1v1 games, but in a quickstart or team games, it's possible to spam a huge mob of sluggas (which get mob bonus) while skipping the boyz hut and PoG, then immediately start spamming trakks.

In general, DoWpro Orks seem too strong to me, but I don't play enough to be able to point at anything specific.

Edit: I see that the hut and pog are display requirements... I'll change it to 51 pop + hut + pog or 51 pop only. Either way, the icon only shows up after 51 pop as it is now.

[Takalth]

Rushing is an important strategy and should IMHO never be removed, as it adds much more depth to the game.

On the contrary, I have found rushing in most RTS games to be the tactic by which non-strategists can compete with strategists. I'm not talking about resource harrassments and such but the strong drive to end the game before there are enough unit options for real strategy to be required. Once you get some micro skills down, rushing is just a matter of memorizing a build order and following a formula.

I found in both Warcraft III and vanilla DOW that almost everybody online had a really strong rush, but very few people had a clue as to how to play the game properly at the higher tiers. Most people didn't understand how to use counters, how to use the strength of one unit to overcome the weakness of another, or how to use different units in support of each other instead of on their own.

Don't misunderstand, I like to see some bloodshed near the beginning of the game, but 95% of the strategic depth in most RTS games occurs after tier 1.

[Tod]

Talketh, you're right that anybody can learn a BO by heart and try to win with a rush. It is just important that there is a strategic decision involved when rushing, and it'll be fine.
Your rush has to suceed in order to win the game, you'll have to kill the enemy or cripple him severely, or otherwise you will lose because he didn't spend all his resources on troops, but also has some Eco and Tech. If it is now possibile to take the punch of a rush away with a good strategy, there should be no problem with rushing, as it will be just another strategy, but not an auto-win. Get me right, I was never trying to defend something like the total scout rush in vanilla.

[LarkinVB]

Once Korbah answers all of my new questions, it's very easy for Excedrin to have the download ready by Sunday.

Only if you want to release with a partially broken AI. Since v1.50 beta some races aren't building as expected. I have to investigate.

[mlai]

@ Excedrin:

After you're done with the issues raised in my last PM to you, please wait for LarkinVB to update his AI. Then release that to the testers for a few days.

Thanks.

[Takalth]

Cool, Tod, I see what you're saying now. I have always defined a rush as the attempt to have the game decided at the earliest minute possible (many people do), but I guess that isn't what you meant. So we're probably a lot closer to the same opinion here than I thought.

[Excedrin]

Another 1.50 build is up, with Mlai's latest changes.

[Sweedumz]

Going back to the worker pop issue again.

The biggest issue here is that some races have worker pop and others don't. This is in my opinion, a fatally flawed concept.

If servitors/bonesingers take up pop then what you have in effect done, is to restrict SM/Eldar players to two worker units, as they would be crazy to waste pop on worker that could be used on frontline units.

Simultaniously you grant Chaos and Ork players faster economic production and in the case of Chaos, more pop can be used on frontline units.

I don't know how this is currently working out, but I can't imagine that this will work out on larger team games, where building capacity is an essential aspect.

[Aron_DeTomado]

It's because scouts(who are great cappers etc) only cost 1 pop, whilst cultists suck horribly at everything up until they get heavy weapons. The grotz is has something to do with the orky pop system, appearantly, and don't tell me Eldar need more cheese.

[LarkinVB]

Did sent my latest v1.5 compatible AI to Excedrin by email. Not sure he got it yet.

I haven't added new researches. Did any race get some ? If yes, what's their requirements/cost/effect ?

[mlai]

@ LarkinVB:
1. Now all researches which enable any kind of infiltration is removed. The infiltration is automatically enabled as soon as a building/tech requirement is reached.
SM scouts = As soon as armory is built.
Chaos tacs/cults = With HQ upgrade.
Eldar rangers = With SS built.
Eldar webways = With MfW researched.
Ork grotz = With PoG built.

2. Eldar has 1 new research: Annihilate The Enemy. It costs 120req/80pow/80secs. It gives 1 extra member to DR squads and FD squads, 2 extra members to Banshee squads, increase Banshee squad charge distance by 2, and increase WS weapon range by 1. It requires MfW + all 4 aspect gems.

3. FD gem requires MfW + Support portal. FDs and their Exarch requires FD gem + at least 1 intact support portal.

@ Sweedum:
How is it a fatal flaw if DOW vanilla had it for months and months, yet SM is still the most powerful endgame force? Where's the tier 3 pwnage of SM by everyone else in QS? Why is it not a problem in vanilla, but all of a sudden it's a problem in DOWpro? Is it really a problem or do you just not like it on principle?

I'm very antagonistic to any changes which are made not in the name of actual balance, but only based on personal preferences. This includes fluff minutiae complaint, statistical theorycraft complaint, race-bias complaint, and personal preference complaint.

Do I know better than you? I don't know. But do I have actual community gameplay evidence to fall back on, while you don't? Yeah.

A lot of SM tier 3 imba has been nerfed, but IMO SM is still the most powerful tier 3 army in the game (just no longer OMGWTFQSPWN). The mod has not yet shown anything to the contrary.

No one can point to any "fatal flaw" with certainty without even having touched 1.50.

[Tod]

Sounds good, could I get the new 1.5 test version?

[Fuct]

Going back to the worker pop issue again.

The biggest issue here is that some races have worker pop and others don't. This is in my opinion, a fatally flawed concept.

If servitors/bonesingers take up pop then what you have in effect done, is to restrict SM/Eldar players to two worker units, as they would be crazy to waste pop on worker that could be used on frontline units.

Simultaniously you grant Chaos and Ork players faster economic production and in the case of Chaos, more pop can be used on frontline units.

I don't know how this is currently working out, but I can't imagine that this will work out on larger team games, where building capacity is an essential aspect.

I have to agree with mlai here. After having played alot of huge 3v3 games lately, SM are IMHO clearly the best T3 race, closely followed by Chaos. Ork and Eldar are pretty much even, I think.
The domination of SM is, though, NOT based on deepstrike and orbital relay, but rather on the best collaboration of forces (tanks, arty, infantry). Chaos is almost even, provided that they build enough defilers, which IMHO are BY FAR the best T2 vehicle available. In T3, they need Laspreds to back them up.
Possibly, Orks could be "fixed" by giving them a nice T3 (orky fort) research which makes tankbusters automatically come out with rokkits. Ork infantry and artillery is one of the best, just their AV lacks the T3 power needed.
I couldn't tell how to "buff" Eldar in T3, though. Maybe they don't even need a buff at all.

Greetings

[Sweedumz]

I haven't actually played DoWPro, so you're all much more knowladgeable with its mechanics than I am. However, I have grave forebodings about a mix and match of worker pop, and its ultimate effect on balance. As I understand it, DoWPro doesn't have a huge user base, so maybe big team games are less frequent. This worker thing will effect big team games more so than 1v1s.

Why is it not a problem in vanilla, but all of a sudden it's a problem in DOWpro? Is it really a problem or do you just not like it on principle?

Well in my personal opinion, it was a problem in DoW. I always disliked the fact that workers cost pop and I was delighted when this was changed in Winter Assault. More so than anything else, this seems conceptually wrong to me, especially to have different races obeying different rules.

I don't know. Maybe it will all work out, but I'm farly skeptical that this decision is a long term good one for balance in DoWPro.

[Decadence]

More so than anything else, this seems conceptually wrong to me, especially to have different races obeying different rules.

Eldar have flying tanks. Nobody else does.
Is this unfair?

[Aron_DeTomado]

I haven't actually played DoWPro

Then what the HELL are you arguing balance for!? Seriously, some people need to get a clue before they start throwing IMBAs.
Theorycrafting only gets you so far.

This worker thing will effect big team games more so than 1v1s.

How, exactly? I would very much like to know.

[Sweedumz]

Then what the HELL are you arguing balance for!? Seriously, some people need to get a clue before they start throwing IMBAs.
Theorycrafting only gets you so far.

I'm thinking of playing DoWPro and when I heard about this issue I kind of wanted to get the lay of the land on what seemed to me to be a legacy feature that could do with removing. I haven't said it's IMBA. I've said it seems like something which could very easily lead to imbalance. Essentially, I'd rather not go back to this.

How, exactly? I would very much like to know.

Team games, much more so than 1v1s, are heavily about econimics and production capacity. Your ability to control resources, back up your ally, stay mobile, and recover from assaults on your base are all big factors in team games. Micro becomes less important and the "big picture" comes into play. And that picture looks prettier for your side if you've got more than two builder on the field at any one time.

[Decadence]

Think of it as a race-specific pro/con.

Marines and Eldar may have pop cap taken up by builders, but due to Webgates/Orbital Relay, they can support their allies at any position more easily than Orks and Chaos can.

[Excedrin]

I'm thinking of playing DoWPro and when I heard about this issue I kind of wanted to get the lay of the land on what seemed to me to be a legacy feature that could do with removing. I haven't said it's IMBA. I've said it seems like something which could very easily lead to imbalance. Essentially, I'd rather not go back to this.



Team games, much more so than 1v1s, are heavily about econimics and production capacity. Your ability to control resources, back up your ally, stay mobile, and recover from assaults on your base are all big factors in team games. Micro becomes less important and the "big picture" comes into play. And that picture looks prettier for your side if you've got more than two builder on the field at any one time.

I've played literally thousands of games of DoW and WA (both 1v1s and team) and I've rarely built more than two workers. When the patch that made Heretics 0 pop came out, I thought "Oh wow, now it's possible to get an extra marine squad in the initial 10 pop or an additional cultist squad that I don't have to delete!" But it turned out that it didn't make much difference overall, it just evened out the CSM vs SM matchup slightly. That's the way it is in DoWpro.

It's still possible for SM or Eldar to delete workers for cap in situations when it's very important to get that last squad out in the early game, but all out tier 1 mass isn't that popular as far as strats go (for either SM or CSM).

I don't think that whether they take cap or not is anywhere near as big a deal as you seem to think.