DoWpro 1.51 for Winter Assault released - Eldar revisited.

[Tenak]

I thought I'd copy a part of the comment that I made in the replay thread here, as it is one of my concerns with the game:

This was exactly what I was talking about in terms of power availability in dowpro. You put down gens earlier than the opponent and get away with it, you have a massive advantage. The gen scaling is completely over the top and creates a teching game in my opinion.

Say you have a typical SM mirror. You have a few tier 1 fights, then one person (lets call him player A) puts down a couple of gens and techs. Player B responds by attacking, destroying an LP and decapping it. However, player B, being a good player realises that the opponent is about to reach tier 2. In order to compete he must therefore build gens himself, and tech. Despite having more req tho, it takes ages to get 3 gens up… you won’t have enough power for a start. Player A uses his power resources to build more power, and uses it to win the game. Player B is kept in a downwards spiral where he never has enough power because he keeps having to use it to buy more gens that need power.

What I am getting at is that in this game it is completely impossible to turn a req advantage into a power advantage. This means the game is teching orientated on all but the map control maps (e.g. outer reaches). However, it is entirely possible to turn the power advantage into a req advantage (infact, rather easy). In my mind, gen scaling should only be applied in terms of req, not power.

In this matchup it is even worse. He is able to put down a big gen right at the start being eldar. Unless I committed to an all out rush I was bound to loose. This also creates a problem with orks, due to their base defences. On some maps, a 2 gen build can be ridiculously powerful. Unless the opponent does a perfect counter build he will lose easily. Say we are playing on MoM and he takes out my vulnerable LP at the top of my base. He can’t go further in due to building concentration. In DoW, the ork player would lose: the other player would generate a power advantage out of his req advantage and go on to win. In this game the non-ork player would probably lose.

Regarding stormboyz, I've changed my mind. I just remembered the hell that I caused my eldar opponents with heavy inf. stormboyz in 1.4. If it wasn't for completely imba guardians they would have pwned eldar totally, as DR and WS are both really horrible counters.

Regarding the NL issue: In my mind NL are the reason you get sluggas as opposed to shootas in DoWpro, as there is no other reason to. If NL can be available from 4 members, they can remain as they are, if you need 7 members to get them they definately need a buff. Although you would still be getting those 3 other members for almost no use :/
Yes, you could spam units of 4 orks + nob leaders, but this way you a ) would not have any big shoota support to punish dancing ranged troops and b) it would use up quite alot of pop and power.

[Takalth]

Quote:
"Man have u ever lost a orky fort,SM or chaos HQ in dowpro if u werent already losing????"
I have seen it happen many times, especially in team games.
We had a 3 on 3 game going once (one we were slowly being driven back on), and one of my allies slipped three laspredators around a different side of the board and took out all 3 hq, simply by ignoring anything bothering them. I once had an army of chaos marines (primarily missile marines) attack, but instead of meeting his army head-on, I infiltrated them behind his base and started the battle by taking out his hq. Depending on the tactics people use, this can happen reasonably often.

Quote:
"Regarding stormboyz, I've changed my mind. I just remembered the hell that I caused my eldar opponents with heavy inf. stormboyz in 1.4. If it wasn't for completely imba guardians they would have pwned eldar totally, as DR and WS are both really horrible counters."

banshees, both in 1.4 and in DOWPro soundly defeat stormboyz for cost (and this wouldn't change if their armor type did). Also, with the right mix of units (usually guardians to stall stormboyz, since that way you can have more units than they do), you can usually get at least one reaper squad firing. I don't know what it will be like in DOWPro if they make the change, but it took about 6-7 seconds for a single reaper to kill a stormboy. With the right micro, my ork opponents were only a challenge if they used mixed armies.

[Tod]

Just had game against insane AI, teched up a bit for fun and in the end the game was decided by the following battle (The rest of the armies already killed each other, but these units weren't wounded. Sorc+marines are just evil against Sluggas btw):
Ork: Warboss+Nob squad
Me: Bloodthirster, Lord and an Oblit squad
The whole fight was occuring in taint, and the Ork still won, with warboss in yellow health. He seems to wtfpwn vehicles and superunits like mad. I know that this isn't a typical fight for most games, but it felt really strange nevertheless.

Also, IIRC somebody said that BT regen was fixed in 1.49.1, it isn't.
Does Mob Bonus also effect spells?

I'll see whether I can get online during holidays, but I got much other stuff to do.

[Ra2iel]

ok the wierdest thing just happened to me.
After watching santi,stefan,slowrunner,fixer complain about the game for half an hour in the lobby,and observing couple of games 2on2 with santi,stefan,slow and another guy i suggested that they try out DOWpro.I did that cause they spent lots of time whining of broken stuff and i asked if anyone tried it and they said no, and sugested to try it cause its good and fun to play.
I was instantly flamed and called noob and told to @#$% that MOD up my @#$ [not exacticly those words but i was basicly laughed at]
When i asked the mwhy they told me that they dont like to split up the comunity but watching them play i got the feeling that they actualy loved that abuse and really needed it in their game play [they are all great players but....]

So im wondering what top ranked players are we talking about that actualy play DOWpro cept Dan who playes sometimes [also he actualy likes WA and also complaines about imbas]

And after 2 days of searching the gamespy server for DOWpro games i came to the conclusion that our little comunity is actually LITTLE [i couldnt find noone who playes it there].I got some gys to try it out but other than that :S

Im really getting upset as i really wanna play and i dont know how to use IRC that well and when i try to talk to people on #dowpro noone answeres.

Could u pls help me by telling me when u guys play ,or how to contact u for games beside chalenging on gamedrome ??

[Tod]

One important reason might be that playing a game on pro level requires quite some training. I don't think that they would want to spend so much time on a mod they can't play all day on automatch and gather points for some ranking. BTW, is Dowpro ranked in some way?

[f4lx]

yes the comunity is littll and till now you wont find games due searching gamespy. maybe it will get bigger with dowpro 2.0 who knows but till then you have to live with that.

for the irc problem i suggest you if you are a user of firefox to download chatzilla its quite easy to use. without irc its the only way to find any players yet.

bb

[Talash]

I know this is just a minor niggle in an otherwise great mod, but Obliterators cant attack in melee, right? This isnt too much of a problem for me, but it seems a little odd, due to those apparent powerfists they have. Anyhow, I digress - My actual point is that displayed on their stats in game, is the fact that they do very high melee damage, but dont have a ranged attack. This, of course, isnt the case. Just pointing it out!

PS: This is based off my recollection, and I have a bad memory, so I could be wrong. Ill double check sometime soon.

[Excedrin]

Tenak, DoWpro forces you to think about LP2s much more than DoW or WA. If you build LP2s early, it's quite likely that you'll have tons of req and no power in tier 2, hopefully a huge mass of T1/T2 troops are enough to deal with someone who got LP2s after putting down a few gens so they could get vehicles and more heavy weapons. Anyway, the trade off is mass unupgraded troops or tech, you can't rush and then hide behind LP2s and tech effectively. It's different from DoW on purpose. Is that really a bad thing?

Talash, I can verify the 2nd part of your bug report. It's an issue with the way the game handles weapon groups and obliterator's weapon. Oblits should be able to melee, I'll look into it.

[Talash]

Thanks Excedrin, its just a small thing really. Its just annoying though when your Oblits are tied up by ASMs! *Grumblegrumblegrumble*

[Ra2iel]

Basicly what i was thinking is that we make a little Tournament in DOWpro.
This would help playtest the mod some more and actualy put lots of DOWpro players at the same place at the same time .Dunno if this is the right thread to post this in but a little tourny would be nice dont u think ??Maybe on this sunday???

[TrueTheReaper]

I was instantly flamed and called noob and told to @#$% that MOD up my @#$ [not exacticly those words but i was basicly laughed at]

Most of the top players want to play competively, and they do not waste their time playing mods with no chance of doing so.

I myself keep playing both WA and DoWpro, i play DoWpro for fun games, WA to please my taste of competition (With some success, check out TrueRandom ). At least i can revert back to DoWpro when i get pissed off with WA. (Damn random playing tricks on me, i keep getting matched O vs IG, E vs C >.<)

I´m pretty sure Slow_Runner was not one of those people who flamed you, i know him and i´ve talked to him several times. He actually tried the mod after i persuaded him to, but he decided not to play it because of the fact that you have to learn the whole game again.

[Ra2iel]

The thing that i dont gat is "What is there to learn?".Its a game.MAde for fun.Stats dont matter,its justa bunch of data on a PC somewhere.....I just sugested that they try out the mod.I thought they liked fun games being the top WA players and stuff.Quess i was wrong.But then again i suppose that most of them wouldnt be top 10 if it werent for WA.DAmn i mist TMG ...At least those guys were the best in a good game that actualy needed thinking and a lill bit of skill .


I will reapeat my self.
LETS HAVE A DOWpro TPURNAMENT THIS WEEKEND!!!

or

LETS HAVE A DOWpro MARATHON THIS WEEKED!!!

[LarkinVB]

Can you please list to which units bad doks and apothecaries can be attached ?

[Ra2iel]

Eh,to all non hero units.
Docs can be attached to MANz.

[Tenak]

Tenak, DoWpro forces you to think about LP2s much more than DoW or WA. If you build LP2s early, it's quite likely that you'll have tons of req and no power in tier 2, hopefully a huge mass of T1/T2 troops are enough to deal with someone who got LP2s after putting down a few gens so they could get vehicles and more heavy weapons. Anyway, the trade off is mass unupgraded troops or tech, you can't rush and then hide behind LP2s and tech effectively. It's different from DoW on purpose. Is that really a bad thing?

Yes, but if you put power down early, in tier 2 you will have both req and power. If don’t put power down early, but establish map control, you will still lose. You can get power, or req. Yes, against an opposing SM player in is probable that you will overpower him before his teching makes the difference. However, orks and eldar find it much easier to tech in this way and survive.
Also, the fact is in DoWpro mass troops (from mass req) never does anything. You need power for the special weapons and vehicles to create a good army. Power >>> req in this game. You get more power, you can win battles and also get more req. You get more req (map control), or even worse spend your power on tier 1 units (omg!) then you won’t be able to get power you need to build gens due to ridiculous levels of gen scaling that are present. Thus you won’t have power, thus you will loose.
Also, I’d like to mention that due to this gen scaling, big gens are very very good. If you don’t get one and the opponent does, you will most probably lose. This is because they are the only way to get a decent amount of power in this game.

@ Choko: The only thing a dowpro tournament needs is someone to organise them. Fl4x was doing some ‘racial supremecy’ tournaments, but they were discontinued due to the fact that he didn’t have time. Also, due to the fact it is almost Christmas, this may not be the best time to get a good amount of players. But it’s up to you, if you want to organise something, go ahead

[Koki]

Ra2iel: That's the point... if you want to be really good, you HAVE TO learn the game. You must know cost of all units/buildings by heart, you must know lots of builds(Few for every map!), timing, have superb micro and macro, and so on and so on, times five, because that's how many races are in WA. Basically, there's a level in which game stops being a game, and becomes... sport. Best stuff, all the time, for best players, no space for improvisation, because game, as a piece of code, can be mathematically calculated - what to do for best results. Of course, execution belongs to the player still, that's where skill comes in.

Now what I wanted to say... ah yes. Zerkers. First, a digression.Chaos, as it currently is in DoWPro, seems to be... overflowing. While other races - mainly Eldar - have one unit for every role, Chaos' units are almost overlaping. With glorious return of CSM and their versatility, they enter territory of Horrors. Berserkers enter the territory of Raptors.

About Zerkers... these guys are too weak. Now wait, don't shoot. I mean, these are Khorne(THE Khorne)'s Chosen warriors and all that stuff. Producing them in Tier 1 is way too early IMO. I know that they got nerfed and have morale again(Which, to be honest, doesn't make much sense). And that's what I'm rambling about... they don't 'fit' in Tier 1, especially when Raptors are available later. As if they wee more specialised or something. So what I'd do with them... either swap them in places with Raptors(Maing Raptors more of what Decadence described them as - this is, Guirella-like harass units, not to be used in real combat situations, or kick them(Zerkers) out to Tier 2 completely(Possibly no Circle though - too close to PSM).
This additional effort to get them could be used to buff them back a bit, making them more fearsome as they should be. I'm still saying they should get morale immunity back(And no Aspiring Champion). Or, if delaying them is not balancing their immunity enough, make them weak against buildings of all types - these guys crave blood after all, not screws. Or whatever is used to build.
So in short, proposed possible buffs for Zerkers:

- Standard damage/health boost
- Morale immunity

...at the cost of proposed possible nerfs:

- Tier 1.5(Past-Armory - conflict with Raptors) or Tier 2(No Circle)
- No Champion
- Puny DPS against buildings
- Maybe unability to attach commanders(Berserkers are hard to command, I figure)

And bug for today is: Plasma Battery Upgrade - that's second one in powerplants - doesn't cost any power(Every other upgrade of this type does).

Also, scaling down really looks like too much. Make it scale down only in Req, maybe(No cost in Power)

Also also, BT doesn't regenerate, but you know that already.

Also also also, 4 Heavy Weapons for Raptors is a bit too much...

Keep up the good work.

[Tenak]

Morale immunity is a stupid idea... it is a fundamental mechanic in dowpro and to have one unit 'immune' would make tons of abilities useless vs that unit.

The problem with FJ at the moment is that is really good on units with high hp and armour, e.g. nobz, but really bad on rank and file orks such as sluggas. This is completely opposite to how it should be! However, I wouldn’t really be happy with invincibility coming back either though… I’m still thinking about this one.

What I think (hope) is a bug: heretics seem to restore health somehow. Not quite sure how it is happening but when I go back to then after a while they are on full health (presumably the chaos building aura?)

[Ra2iel]

@Alucard
Yeah heretics heal 2 HP per sec on tier 2 chaos nuildings i think.That is good.

@Koki
Chaos isnt what it is in WA.U have to tacticise with them.They are most morale voulnarable next to eldar now and u must use diversion tactics to win with them.
Ucant justcharge a melee mas into CC with ranged troops cause u will get shreded.

Btw when i 1st play Alu...er Tenak on the ladder that was my 2nd,3th and 4th game of DOWever.I got beaten up hard but it was very fun.After that i beat him in every single game we played.All of the games were tough and long but most importantly we had lots of fun.
DOWpro isnt an autoranking game.Its not played en masse [YET] and IMO when a game comes to the point where u forget why u started playing it and worry just about rank and stats and maths and etc..the best thing to do is to stop playing alltogether!!!


@ all u guys playing DOWpro

I will be more then happy to organise a tournament or a marathon.I was thinking on this weekend cause im free the whole saturday and sunday.
If u want me to and if f4ax,mlai,korbah,dystmic,tenak and the rest of u guys want to and u have the time post the time u perfer to have it and we will have it.
I will open a thread in the DOW general discusion on the tourny topic and u can post your prefered times and maybe we an reach an agreement.

But pls lets all agree till the end of friday so everyone can get informed and the newbies can also come and observe or play!!

[Tod]

What I think (hope) is a bug: heretics seem to restore health somehow. Not quite sure how it is happening but when I go back to then after a while they are on full health (presumably the chaos building aura?)

1 HP at T2
2 HP at T3

It's not that much, as Forced Labor really shines in the first few minutes of the game, and the regen only kicks in post T2.5 (it takes the heretic quite some time to regen in T2).

Regarding Zerkers, morale immunity is always a bad thing, maybe having the first armor upgrade also increase Zerk morale a bit would be a nice and small buff. Would give them a niche as an unit with very good morale. Otherwise they seem to do quite well, but there are just more games needed to be sure.

[Koki]

Morale immunity was just one of my proposals... besides, I always attach CL to a squad, so they (almost)never break anyway. I just feel that right now Zerkers are in shadow of Raptors, who can jump, have comparable CC, get 4 hvy weapons, and generally dominate as f4lx just have proven

[D-coy]

Not a really fundemantal idea, but,

How about making Berzerkers GAIN moral when a member of the squad dies...Y' know its death just add to their bloodlust... if it's possible .

Cheers, D-coy :omg: :flamer: :sniper:

[Aron_DeTomado]

Hmm, whatabout making the broken effects on zerkers the opposite? So they deal MORE damage while running SLOWER? It could represent their bloodlust getting the better of them as they decend into a mindless frenzy.
Or what D-coy said.

[f4lx]

here are two more reps of choas mirror where zerks and raps had their match.
hf
http://dow.sanctuary-network.com/index.php?showforum=46

[mlai]

Thanks for all the bugs. I'm keeping track of them and will fix them all once patch 1.50 is ready (waiting for German and Spanish ucs files). Here's list of current bugs/oddities; nothing that will pose a problem in fixing...

1. Vyper spontaniously regenerates HP and benefits from webway healing WTF?
2. Orks: You can research Super 'Eavy Armor Upgrade before researching 'Eavy Armor Upgrade
3. Eldar: Seer Council has 4 members(why?), but you still can build gazillions Witchblades for it(This sucks when overwatching weapon production...).
4. NL synckill not working.
5. Plasma Battery Upgrade - that's second one in powerplants - doesn't cost any power(Every other upgrade of this type does).
7. 4 Heavy Weapons for Raptors is a bit too much...
8. Need Raptor max squad modifier for both Chaos HQ addons, or else you can't have 10 Raps once you're on tier 3 HQ.
9. Oblits and Termies must have vanilla DOW teleport stats to have working FX. Optional.

The following are not bugs:

1. Oblits have no problems attacking in range or melee. Forget what the toolbar says.
2. Bloodthirster does regenerate. When idle - he degens. When in kill anim or when attacking buildings - he doesn't regen or degen. When in the middle of an attack animation against infantry - he regens A LOT. This is how vanilla DOW/WA has it as well; we tweaked the code's numbers but we didn't change it.

Addendum: Bloodthirster regens at 30 HP/sec when in protracted fights (not triggering kill anims) against humanoids (heroes, Termies, maybe Avatar, etc). This means he no longer fears heroes etc.

[Tod]

Flamer morale damage seems a bit low before the upgrade, afterwards it's just insane. Maybe a less steep difference would be better?

EDIT: Just had a few games against insane AI, does it still get the req bonus? On some Maps against Orks, you are slaughtering literally hundreds of Sluggas, but there are coming even more. When you got 4x4 CSM, your AI opponent throws around 60 Sluggas at you, they win even at range due to mob bonus.

[f4lx]

spanish and german ucs files are in progress but still need a bit of time.. we hope to finish them this weekend!
btw soon we will lunch our dowpro board so sty tuned!
cya

[LarkinVB]

Let me know when you plan to release 1.5 so I can provide a better AI for it !

[ArkhanTheBlack]

Okay, at last I found time to try DOW Pro out. I played two matches with chaos against SM. I don't dare to say anything about the balancing at this point, since I didn't play it enough for that. But it felt more complex and not as simple and straight forward as WA. Teching seemed to be slower, but on the same time more powerfull. The various researches promise a lot of different specialisations like "today I'll focus on CSM, tomorrow I go heavy melee, and the day after I'll mass horrors".
I had the impression that you probably won't see all units in short 1vs1 games, but longer games get much more interesting. I hope you'll release V2.0 with IG soon. The missing IG really hurts.

BTW, I noticed from other posts, that the redundant melee is still a problem, even in DOW Pro. I wonder, isn't it possible to make possessed a relic unit instead of oblits? Oblits are different to all other chaos units, therefore they'd be a good 'general' addition. Possessed would only replace berserkers if you managed to conquer a relic which is deserved in this case. This would allow berserkers to be the chaos top melee unit in tier 2, like possessed in vanilla DOW and raptors the versatile jump troops in tier 1,5. Just an idea...

[terranguy]

@ Tod : going through the RGDs of the game, I found that DoWPro AI is currently having similar bonuses to WA vanilla AI.

This means for both requisition and power :
Easy : 70% less (0.3 * standard rate)
Standard : 20% less (0.8 * standard rate)
Hard : no modifier = fair game, no cheat on ressources
Harder : 20% more (1.2 * standard rate)
Insane : 40% more (1.4 * standard rate)

This may explain the sluggas tide ! :kami:

@ all : I am currently finalising the spanish translation. F4lx did a great job on that and I just correct a few things with the help of some nice guys of the spanish DoWHispano forum.

Hopefully, this will be finished this week-end.

Ciao,

[f4lx]

there will be now doubt onreleasing this 2 ucs we just have to test them and we ll send you them asap.
cya

Well guys i am tired of WAITNG we will lunch the board today so everyone interested in dowpro should bookmark the following link!

DOWPRO BOARD
http://s14.invisionfree.com/DOWPRO/

cu there!

[fuggles]

Keep the zerks as morale immune! It's what they are there for and if they are the only unit that has it, it's not so bad. Maybe you should swap them with possessed, as well, they seem better all round as units. Does that avatar still have a conflagration aura in this version? Make him give surrounding units a melee bonus!

BTW, what would I need to make my own version of this, for personal and testing usage?

[TrueTheReaper]

After having some more games against eldar and as eldar, i believe letting Stormboyz get their NL with just 4 boyz is not the best solution (Would bring us to the WA powersword situation (powerclaw)).

Instead, i would think that reducing the speed of which WS teleport recharges is the way to go. As it is right now, An ork player has to charge into the Eldar WS line 3 times (!) before he can get stuck in. At that point the ork has lost most of his sluggas and shootas, and he only has NL and BM left, which are probably broken since the ork has lost his mob bonus.

I know this change does not help the ork in this situation, but it prevents the eldar player from doing that from some time, so the ork gets some breathing room.

(NOTE: I believe the problems Tenak had in his games was in fact the pretty messed up power system, NOT the Ork - Eldar balance. If the player going for a BigGen in the start would have to sacrifice loads of Req into the generator, the other player would have a chance to rush and end the game there, or take the mapcontrol.

I sincerely believe that power generators should increase in cost in REQ ONLY, untill someone proves me otherwise.)

EDIT: But then again.... Raptors and ASM get their leaders without reinforcing.... How good is Powersword compared to Powerclaw?

[Dys]

I kinda like D-Coy's idea about squad member death ++ moral

[Takalth]

I still think it's cheezy that warp spiders should be an equal match to the unit that they're intended to counter and inferior to everything else. Give orks a heavy infantry option (stormboyz), do a little number tweaking, and the problem's solved in a way that makes the game a lot more interesting. I would recommend that even if it wasn't needed for balance.

Anyway, somebody give me a specific reason why this won't work.

[mlai]

I think both the 4-boyz-NL idea and the heavy-Stormies idea can work (of course, only one will be used not both). I also don't see any balance problems with either.

4-boyz-NL: Has been done in DOW for over a year. Never saw any OMFG Stormboyz IMBA. DOWpro Stormboyz aren't much different. I don't think DOWpro NLs equate to ASM pwnswords at all. pro NLs are weak, and Stormboyz are expensive for a crap unit.

Heavy-Stormies: Put into DOW since 1.40. Again, never saw any OMFG Stormboyz IMBA. In fact, many ppl thought it made them weaker (when not used against WSs).

I have no idea what the resistance against either idea is. The idea behind both of them is really the same - give Orkz a viable early heavy-infantry option. Teching like mad to spam early Nobz just reminds me too much of the bad aftertaste of WA (as well as the uselessness of Dokz). And I kinda oppose changing WSs. Eldar counters are rock-hard for a reason, and WSs must be worth their cost.

Anyways, what would you guys prefer (below):

1. Wait until Korbah comes home to get his vision of IG. Wait approx 2 months or more.

2. I crank out an alpha-alpha version now. It's not gonna be balanced. Ppl play it, and I tweak it (once-twice per week). This means lots of small patches you'll have to keep up with as you all help with IG balancing thru actual play. By the time Korbah goes home, he'll have a semi-balanced template to study. Oh, and I'll include all the hidden stuff Relic didn't put in. This will convince Korbah that all hidden stuff = good. (Can you believe he didn't want the 2 other weapons for Sents?)

[f4lx]

mlai could you plz empty you message box i cant write you anything...
its about our dowpro board!

well i dont like the idea of having tons of patches i would prefer to create a test team. to have it more intern at the beginning!

so i prefer 1. option!

[Semblance]

i dont know if this is the best board to type this in, as there seem to be several DoWPro boards around at the moment, but can i suggest getting a bit of webspace, which is easy to find, and keep the most updated version of the game there at all times. or at least a link to where you can find it, or something! i just got back from uni, been playin dowpro on the laptop, but when i got back home took me a good 15 mins to find the 1.491 patch for my home PC.. despite the fact i knew i was lookin for it!

google searches turn up a bunch of links to old patches, one from back in the day of 1.3!

[Takalth]

I lean toward a variance of option 2. Approximate what you want and give it a week or two. Add one patch after that time, and I think that all of the major imbalances will be worked out of it (only minor ones to go). Obviously part of my interest is in seeing IG in DOWPro. The fact is, I just don't see how an early and possibly imbalanced release of the IG will actually hurt anything, especially if IG players are playing to analyze balance issues instead of finding an imbalance to spam.


The stormboyz/nob leader situation, as I see it:
Balance via nob leaders: The game will be balanced, but it will give orks single route gameplay for tier 1 vs. eldar. Every time this matchup occurs, the ork player will do the exact same thing until he gets nob leaders.

Balance via heavy stormboyz: Again, game is balanced. However, scouting increases in importance (you have to know what your enemy is doing), both orks and eldar will have to vary their tactics and be ready for the other person to perform a sudden tactical shift. This just seems like it will make a much more interesting game.

[f4lx]

@ semblance we have started a new dowpro board and its for now the most official one, didnt heard about other so far.
so have a look
http://s14.invisionfree.com/DOWPRO/index.php?

[Korbah]

Hi guys some great discussion!

Certainly added to my ideas for 1.5

On IG, I've completed everything except the researches, I'll type it all today. Could someone send me a list of the current WA IG researches with effects, costs, timers, requirements plz.

I'll relog on to the net and post my 1.5 suggestions.

and mlai - i only didn't want the heavy flamer on sents

[TrueTheReaper]

Korbah, prepare to be bombarded by me about several balance-related stuff i´ve gathered when you come back.

[ArkhanTheBlack]

Question:

Is their any chance that you'll include the demon prince from the DOW campaign (resized and adjusted of course)? It's a valid 40K chaos unit and it's really a shame that it wasn't included in WA as a regular commander unit. Model and animations are all available. The only thing that is needed is an idea how to balance it out with the rest of the chaos units.

[TrueTheReaper]

Well.... i guess it COULD be added as a secondary Uber-unit for the chaos... But i can´t remember what the demonprice was like, been ages since i played the DoW campaign trough

[Koki]

Make it buildable like Bloodthirster, and then summoned... on the Bloodthirster.

[f4lx]

demon prince would be great and why not giving the chaos general the ability instead of demonic strenght making him to an demon prince for a short period of time. like in war3 the dwarf avatar...

[D-coy]

What about making the BT out of the CL and the Demon Prince out of the CS (when you summon the Sorc you'd get a Demon Prince instead of the BT).

It would have advantages and disadvantages compared to the BT. Like health regen, AOE attacks (bigger range), but less HP or something like that.

Hope you like it , cheers, D-coy :howdy:

[Korbah]

DoWpro 1.5 Notes:

Great feeback so far. Here’s my thoughts and ideas:

In preparation for IG we need more anims and models to be fixed. Some are necessary, other just polish. Can someone plz get about recruiting a modeler/animator for the task:

- berserker/asm frag throw
- changing chaos decap/cap of cults/psm/csm/raps/sorc/champs/rap champs/CL to use the berserker anim (I like the rabble look better than the SM prayer)
- Kasrking infiltration, fof and melta throw anims
- Farseer BT kill anim
- Chaplain CORE anim (uses litany of hatred anima tm….duplicate anims suck, perhaps use the FC battlecry anim)
- Hvy weapon platoon needs total modeling and anims fixed!!!!!!
- Trukk rampage needs a totally new anim
- IG in general need to have their missing weapons and anims added/fixed (sentinel autocannon, sarg powerswords, commissar fist, officer plasma pistols, general melta gun, BB autocannon firing anim, guardsmen flamer, and obviously the hvy weapon platoons are screwed)

Ok that’s it for the anims – plz suggest more anims/sync kills etc!!!!

1.5 Balance changes:

Cults CC dps is very very low  I’d like to see it buffed slightly to the point at which a unit cannot just sit back, decap with 10 cults smacking down on them and not lose a man. I still want cults to suck….but its ridiculously crappy atm. This will also affect my IG.

Min Shoota DPS vs building high is rather good…should be nerfed (for these numbers I need someone like Excedrin to make some suggestions….i’m a little stranded here to make suggestions about exact dps numbers)

Eldar LP gun should have an activation toggle like artillery does

Cult grens: 30% nerf to commander, inf_hvy_med/high, -0.5 radius and friendly fire activated

Is artillery bugged with dps and morale dmg in 1.49??? Recheck .luas to 1.48 in case

Bolters, HB, slugga CC, lasguns, shruiken, shoota, WS all get a 15% nerf to monster_med (to make monster med more of a “counterable” armour type theme…these guns are now poorer)

DR’s, Plasma weapons, Big shootas, Witch blades get 10% buff vs monster med

FD’s – no setup time, but must be stationary. Can someone plz propose more reasonable DPS’s  I want hard AV, soft-moderate anti-buildings, moderate monster high and med.

Term AC = oblit AC dps

NL’s: +50 HP, adds 3 mob bonus

SB NL: ditto

The SB issue: I suggest we test both of the following changes to see which results in superior gameplay:

- make NL require 4 SB’s instead of 7
- Make SB’s inf_hvy_med…..but NL requires 7 boyz
- Combine both…..if OvE still sux

I think both ideas have merit….but the theory needs testing.

Eldar support portal stones. Change back to stones instead of researches. Make 2nd support portal not scale in cost.

Vyper healing….leftover from its days as the viper squad – remove this






DoWpro Imperial Guard:

The intention is to redefine IG to more closely resemble the theme of fluff IG.

Namely, and emphasis on aggressive defence. IG take a point and fortify it, using it as a solid foundation for further conquest. This is in contrast to elder points which more closely represent a connected lace connecting their various sup-bases together. IG are about infrastructure and this is representative in their tech model. Intelligent use of infrastructure allows the IG player to hold their points – remember to press the enemy you must still take to the onpen battlefield and harras/attack.

Even in the open battlefield this trend to “fortify” holds true. Heavy weapon platoons provide a solid backbone support unit which also improves the armour of infantry units standing behind it (once deployed). Chimeras also provide a solid firepower unit that supports your infantry. To win, the IG player will create layered battle lines – using the frontline to dance and disrupt the enemy’s troops whilst the rear lines pour in firepower.

Imperial guard has inferior troops, weaponry, tanks, morale and HP. The must overcome these disadvantages through numbers (difficult due to the level of casualties), micro/macro, and intelligent use of abilities and troops, and disruption (which along with generally poor DPS’s is the feature of IG firepower  no other race has as much disruptive firepower).

Morale is a critical issue for IG that must be solved through careful micro, morale upgrades or commissars. No one solution is ideal and will be overcome by dedicated enemy anti-morale attacks. Solving morale issues is a fluid problem that requires making cost-benefit choices. IG has been redesigned to be an alternate race to elder in terms of difficulty of play. I see nothing wrong in creating and expert race and make no apology for doing so.

IG have the most commander and leader units with a great variety of abilities. There is great flexibility in their role and effects that I think players will enjoy experimenting with.

IG traits and features:
- Mass cheap firepower utilizing garrisoned buildings, layered lines of troops, disruption and anti-morale special weaponry to wear the enemy down and reduce their ability to fight while mass cheap low DPS weapons do the killing.
- Tunnels, chimera transports and tanks provide support and survivability to infantry. Infantry are the focus of the IG – all else is support.
- Whilst a primarily aggressive/defensive race, 3 units permit aggressive harassment: Chimera troop transports, Kasrkin infiltration harass, Sentinel eco harass and decap.
- “Lossy” playstyle. IG are constantly losing men and using abilities that cost req/power. An IG player must constantly tread the fine line between “Acceptible Losses” and “Devastating Losses”
- Heroes/Leaders/Sargeats strengthen and improve IG infantry and come earlier and in greater numbers and variety to other races
- Emphasis on the unit over the individual. Units are full of honour and tradition and such valorous history is not easily replaces as men are.

General Troop Points:
- All SBPS/EBPS have been modded, use these values as a baseline and overwrite those values that differ from those specifically mentioned in this manifesto (this is the latest version of the IG overhaul)
- All inf have a charge modified that is disabled by default (already modded)
- IG weapons have perfect accuracy afaik  rescale these to SM acc/moving acc
- Auras should overlap and stack (to promote hero combo’s)
- Garrison slots (the number of squad hold slots each squad takes):
o Hvy Weapon platoon/engineer/attachable heroes = 1 slot
o Comm squad/Guardsmen/Kasrkin = 2 slots
o Ogryns = 3 slots
- Leaders/Sarg’s don’t increase infantry cap like other races


Guardsmen: (costs and timers already modded)
- inf_med, cult HP, 2pop, 2 garrison slots
- 140 initial cost, 15 req reinforce, has a modifier like cults (slightly better) that's already modded
- Squad size 9 + sarg  increases to 11 + sarg in T2
- Cult CC dps
- 100morale
Weapons:
- 2 hvy weapons standard + 2 with T1.5 hvy weapons research (new research identical to SM one)
- Cult CC DPS
- Use existing lasgun dps (WA 1.41) with range 28. Remember to redo accuracy and scale DPS accordingly
- Flamer: (25/5/9) (req/power/timer)
 DoWpro burna dps/range/morale dps
 requires T1.5
- Concussion Grendade Launcher: (20/10/11)
 ¾ frag grenade (SM/CSM frag) throw stats, ¼ of DoWpro cult nade dps. Same radius as cult nade.
- Tactical Plasma: (exactly the same as cult plasma in all respects)
Sarg: (55/15/30) T1.5
- inf_hvy_med, use modified HP
- Adds to squad: +50 morale, +10% CC/ranged DPS, +1HP sec regen
Abilities:
- “Firing Drills”: 10% faster reload, +10% acc, ½ squad mov’t speed, use a guide event to visually display
Weapons:
- Sword = seercouncil powersword DPS, laspistol = 2/3 of DoWpro SM sarg bolt pistol dps
- Powersword DPS = 2/3 SM sarg DPS
- Plasma pistol DPS = 2/3 SM sarg DPS
General Infiltration Notes:

As you are aware, infiltration is free in DoWpro. However, most infiltrated units must click the free upgrade once it is available rather than it instantly becoming available. This is clunky and undesirable. Previously I tested (pre-WA) if it were possible to use buildings rather than researches as ability requirements  it caused the game to crash. We should retest to see if infiltration could be made to use buildings rather than researches as requirements:

Scouts – armoury
TB’s = none
Kasrkin = none
Grots = PoG
CSM/Cults = Sac pit
Rangers = Soul shrine
Webway shroud = activated once you hit T2 (or whatever the current requirement is….I cannot remember off hand either T2 or T1.5)


Kasrkin: costs/timers already modded

- inf_high, 240hp, max 4 squads, 2 pop, 2 slots
- Squad size 7 + sarg, with 9 + sarg @ t2
- 200 morale basic with poor morale regen (about 8, all IG inf should be regen 8)
Weapons:
- 3 hvy weapons basic +2 with T1.5 hvy weapons upgrade (as per guardsmen)
- Scout CC dps
- Hellguns = range 28 and SM bolter DPS
- Hvy weapons: concussion nade launchers and assault plasma as per guardsmen
Requirements: T1.5 and the kasrkin stone (use WA costs/timer for now). Also requires 5 inf pop/orky pop (see endnotes)
Abilities:
- Flash Bangs:
 use existing kasrkin frag knockdown and anim as basis, keep
knockdown value, add machine spirit event, 1/3 the dps of SM
frags (30dps to inf), 7-8 sec stun effect, requires a T1.5
upgrade from the rax with same cost/timers as DoWpro SM frags.
- Krak Grenades:
 T2 grenade requiring T1.5 upgrade from rax. Use the melta
anim/projectile with a faster projectile mov't speed. 1/2 the dmg
of frags to infantry with 3/4 of the knockdown effect and no stun
ffect. AV use 1/2 of the dowpro ASM melta values. Use melta
cooldown and research costs. (for flash and krak nade icons ask
searaven...he's already done them)
Sarg: use modified timers/cost/HP
- inf_hvy_med armour
- Adds to squad: +75 morale, +10% CC/ranged DPS, +1HP sec
Abilities:
- Double Time: timed FoF, 1/2 the Acc reduction of FoF, 15sec duration, 35sec cooldown, same mov't bonus and visual event as FoF (whine at searaven to make icon)
Weapons:
- sword: 5/6 of SM sarg DPS (for chainsword vs sword, laspistol vs boltpistol, powersword and plasma pistol).
- For his Hellgun use the standard Kasrkin dps from WA1.0 (if he has a hellgun rather than laspistol

Hvy Weapon platforms: 1pop, Max 8, 1 slot

- Use already modded cost/hp/morale/armour type/mov't speed stats
Undeployed:
- weapons = lasgun and knife (dowpro guardsmen dps) and inf_high
Deployed:
- uses hvy weapon and no CC
- grants a radius 15 180 degree rear facing semi-circle effect that grants all infantry units a +15 armour buff (exclusive effect...we don’t want stacking here). Affected units gain a cover event to allow visual confirmation of the ability.
- give all weapons about a 100 degree firing arc with a slow traverse of about 45 so that the unit can turn to fight in different directions when deployed --> and thus moving the armour aura
- currently the deploy isn't working well and the model is unfinished
- armour type changes to inf_hvy_high
Requires:
- T1.5 hvy weapon stone (there is an icon for this)
- 5 inf pop/orky pop
Weapons:
- HB dps = sm tac bolter stats – 10% dps
- Lascannon stats = range 36, DoWpro csm laspred sponson DPS stats
-10%dps. ½ laspred costs/timers. Requires T2.
- Mortar = range 40, dowpro bomb chukka stats (use basilisk or other suitable looking projectile). 2/3 chukka cost/timer. Requires T2.



Ogryns: use modified cost/timers/HP

- 3pop, max 3, 3 slots
- 300morale with 8 morale regen
- use modified costs/timers/hp/armour types etc from my .luas
- squad size 5 ogryns + BH  7 ogryns + BH @ T3
Requires:
- T2.5, ogryn stone, 8 inf pop/orky pop
Weapons:
- Nob squad CC dps. The ogryn CC upgrade grants oblit powerfist AV dps --> anti-inf dps is unchanged, thus created a new weapon that has same inf dps but has oblit AV dps, also add electrical discharge hit events for all AV targets (see the DoWpro thunderhammer stats to see how this is done)
- Ripper gun dps should be ok if not use dowpro basic horror ranged dps (we’re aiming for a soft general anti-inf counter). Add a SM tactical rocket knockdown effect  if firing rate is too high and knockdown too much, scale dps and increase reload time to balance. Range = 22
Bonehead:
- use modified cost/timers/HP
- Adds to squad: +75 morale, +10% CC/ranged dps, +1hp sec
Abilities:
"Smack Down" --> all ogryns in the squad do 20secs of high knockback melee attacks at the expense of dmg (essentially aim for high disruption melee but about 30-40% less dps). Cooldown 120-150sec.
- 300morale basic to squad, bonehead adds +75
- Ripper guns are range 24

Command Squad/General: 1 pop, 2slots, max 1
- use modified cost/timers/morale/hp
- Melta gun upgrade: t2, dps = 2x fire dragon exarch dps, range = 12. 80/40/60 from tactica
- Airstrike ability: AT + inf disruption
 80 to 100 total damage to infantry units with frag-like knockdown with each
it and roughly 100 total morale damage.
 800 total dmg to light vehs, 1000 to med_veh and monster high,
1200 to veh high
 buildings receive 2/3 of the dmg of equivalent vehicle armour
Types
 costs 75/60 per strike, 150 sec cooldown. Requires mech shop (see earlier mention about abilities using buildings as requirements).
- Has keen sense

Commissar and Command squad Commissar:
- 300hp, 70/35/20
- Use existin DOS
- Regular commissar uses 1 slot
- Adds to squad: _50 morlae, +15% ranged DPS
Abilities:
- +25 morale aura radius 15 (non-exclusive)
- Execute: (free commissar only)
o Rally’s squad
o +20 morale, radius 15, 10sec duration
o +10% reload speed, radius 15, 10 sec duration
o 35 sec cooldown
- Valorous Last Stand: (command squad commissar only)
o Rally’s squad
o Disables morale dmg, radius 15
o 15 sec duration
o +20% melee and ranged damage taken, radius 15
o 15 sec duration
o Has a visible event (find something that looks good...perhaps the battlecry aura)
Weapons:
- powerfist and plasma pistol upgrades = 5/6 sarg dps
- upgrades from powersword to powerfist (T2 100/50 “NCO Powerweapons Issue” upgrade from tactica). Use 5/6 SM sarg dps for equivalent weapons.

Priest and Command Squad Priest:

- 350HP, 80/50/25, use WA prerequisites
- Regular priest uses 1 slot
Weapons:
- uses chainsword by default  upgrades @ T2.5 to eviscerator from tactica upgrade (150/80/80)
- Laspistol  upgrade @ t2 to plasma pistol (5/6 librarian plasma pistol dps)
Adds to squad:
- +15% CC dmg, +2hp/sec
Abilities:
- +2hp/sec regen, radius 15 (non-exclusive)
- “Zealous Frenzy”
o Enables charge modifier
o +15% CC dps to squad
o Disabes death and healing
o 15 sec duration, 150 sec cooldown
- NO KEEN SENSE!!

Psyker and Command squad psyker:

- 250hp 70/65/25
- Regular psyker uses 1 slot
Weapons:
- plasma pistol upgrade 5/6 librarian plasma pistol dps
- CC attack  add a sorc like knockdown radius special attack to increase CC disruption effect (keep it low dmg)
Adds to squad:
- +10% range damage taken reduction, -50% type “other” morale dmg taken and -20% ranged morale dmg taken
Abilities:
- +10% ranged damage taken reduction, radius 15
- Keen Sense
- Keep WA 1.41 abilties for now (we’ll adjust later)

Assassin:
- use modified stats
- 1 slot
- DPS should be = to 2x scout sniper dps/reload etc with a commander dps = to 65% of the inf_hvy_high dmg values
- We’ll further tweak this guy later…..i can’t remember his stats much


Vehicle Rules:
- all turrets traverse at 90 except leman russ and baneblade main turrets and attached weaponry on the turret which traverse at 75. LR/BB main guns are minimum range 15. Basilisk cannon is min range 25.
- all chimera chassis vehicles are 1500hp and Max 4 and require 10 inf pop
- all weapons are standardised, a HB on a landraider = a baneblade HB in dps
- All existing weapons (lascannon/hb) use dowpro CSM stats -10% dps (IG weaponry is inferior)
- All autocannons use 1/2 defiler autocannon dmg dowpro stats and then a further 10% reduction (they're single barrel)

Chimera:

- use modified, cost/timers/hp
- Available from mech and Hq @ T2.
- Has 2 transport slots
- 2pop, max 4, 1500hp, veh_med, mov’t = dowpro rhinon – 2max speed
Requires:
- 2 rax’s, 10 inf pop
Weapons:
- Lasgun = 1.25x guardsmen lasgun dps
- Multilaser = range 32
- 90 traverse speed for all weapons

Slot 1 filled = first 2 lasguns fire
Slot 1&2 filled = all lasguns fire

Basilisk:

- use modified, cost/timers/hp
- Available from mech and Hq @ T2.5 once stone is researched
- 2pop, max 4, 1500hp, veh_med, mov’t = dowpro chimera – 4max speed, -15% tuner and accel/deccel speed
Weapons:
- HB = csm pred dps – 10%, use standardized range, frontal fire arc and traverse speeds etc (use common sense here)
- Artillery: use dowpro WW dps +25%, +20% throw stats and +20% range
Earthshaker round:
- 50/50/35 sec recharge
- 4 sec steup, 2 breakdown
- 1/6 dps of WA earthshaker with x4 the throw stats

Hellhound:

- 2pop, max 4, 1500hp, veh_med, Wa 1.41 requirements, requires 10 ig/ork pop
- DoWpro Basilisk mov’t stats + 2max speed
Weapon:
- Traverse = 75
- Retain WA AoE stats
- Morale dps = 30
- Dps vs inf = 1.5x terminator heavy flamer
- DPS vs light vehs/buildings = 1.2x terminator thunder hammer
- DPS vs med vehs/buildings = ½ terminator thunder hammer
- DPS vs high vehs/buildings = ¼ terminator thunder hammer

Leman Russ:
- use modified ebps/sbps
- 4700hp veh_med, 190/430/70
- Requires T3, mars shop, max 4, 3pop, 12 inf pop
Weapons:
- 3hb’s = dowpro csm pred -10%dps
- Battlecannon = 1.5x pred autocannon DPS with shell anim and a throw effect of radius 7 and ½ the standard battlecannon throw power. Range 40
- Las sponsons: dowpro csm pred stats/cost/timers – 10% dps

Sentinel:
- 1200hp, veh_light, max6, requires stone
Weapons:
- starts with autocannon (1/2 defiler auto -10%)
- lascannon = csm pred sponson dps – 10% cost= 50/30/20

Baneblade:
- use modified cost and timers
- 10000K veh_med HP
- 12 mov’t speed but fast accel/decal turning to represent a high torque/low speed engine
- Use csm equivalent weaponry dps – 10%

Aspect warrior/Troop/Vehicle Stones for IG and elder:

If possible I’d like to see duplicate stones scale down in cost. Apparently the “modifier_immediate” didn’t work….so any more ideas (I thought of a regular modifier or giving buildings an ability that decreases the addon cost once it has been built).


Structure Rules:

LP = 2 slots (only has lasgun battery, no slot 2 HB  LP3 enables the slot 2 HB)
Rax = 4 slots
Mech = 5 slots
HQ = 6 slots
Slot 1 = lasgun battery 1 (range = 26, DPS = 7 guardian lasguns)
Slot 2 = SM tac HB – 10% dps (range 32)
Slot 3 = lasgun battery 2 (range = 26, dps = 7 lasguns, reload is 10-15% slower than lasgun battery 1)
Slot 4 = Tactical Plasma (range = 28, DPS = cult plasma, requires T2 research “Reinforced Redoubt” to become active)
Slot 5 = HB2 and lasgun battery 3 (identical range, HB/lasguns have a further 15% slower reload over previous HB/lasgun, HB requires T2 to become operational)
Slot 6 = Tactical plasma 2 ( identical rane, 15% slower reload, requires “Reinforced Redoubts”)

The reload modifiers for duplicate weapons staggers the Fx’s and thus allows visual confirmation on the number of troops in the buildings….plus it limits max DPS.

Structures:

HQ – 450/0/150 with standard HQ scalin
- 6000hp (building_high)
- T2 = + 2 max guardsmen/kasrkin squad members
- T3 = + 4 inf cap, +2 ogryn max squad members
Rax 125/0/30 (+25 req scaling)
- 1500HP building med
- +4 inf cap
Mech – 200/50/45 (20/10 scaling)
- +4 support cap
Mars – use modded timers/hp
- +5 support cap
Mines – use SM dowpro mines stats


Researches (incomplete):

Hvy Weapons Upgrade:
- Identical to SM research icon/cost/timers
- T1.5 in tactica, adds +2 hvy weapons to guardsmen and kasrkin

Kasrkin flashbangs
- t1.5 from rax, same cost and timers as dowpro sm frags
- searaven has icon for this

Kasrkin krak:
- T2 from rax
- Same cost/timers as asm meltas
- Searaven has an icon for this

Flak and Carapace armour upgrades:
- T1.5 and T2 respectively (IG bionics equivalents)
- Affects : ogryns + BH, guardsmen/kasrkin + sarg, hvy weapons platoon

Infantry morale 1 and 2:
- T1.5 and T2
- +50 morale and +1morale regen per sec AND +50morale and +2 morale regen per sec respectively ( ogryns, guardsmen, kasrkin, hvy platoon)
- Use SM dowpro bionics cost and timers

Hero morale 1 and 2:
- T1.5 and T2
- +50 morale and +1morale regen per sec AND +75morale and +2 morale regen per sec respectively
- Affects com squad
- Use SM dowpro Hero HP 1 and 2 cost and timers

Hero HP upgrades 1 and 2
- affects all commander type units
- similar cost and buffs as other race equivalents in dowpro

Lasgun range:
- +4 range and 10% faster reload to all las weaponry (for infantry only – guard las, hellguns, laspistol, hvy platoon lascannon)
- T2 from tactica, use SM targetfinder 1 cost/timers

Hvy Weapons Proficiency:
- requires lasgun ranged upgrade
- 20% raster concussion nade, tactical plasma reload. Faster platoon deploy speed (5 sec to 3….assuming those numbers are correct I forget). Hvy platoon mov’t speed increased.

Jury Rigged Hull Plating:
- T3 upgrade from mech command
- 15% HP buff to all IG vehs
- Use mutilated hull costs/timers  get searaven to make an icon

Hellfire/Promethium Cannisters
- T2.5
- Identical to SM promethium research and buffs all flamer weapons

Eco upgrades:
- same bonuses and costs/requirements as existing race upgrades.




Reinforced Redoubts:
- 80/60/80 T2 from tactica
- +300hp to LP’s, rax and turrets
- Activates slot plasma weapons

NCO Power weapons issue:
- T2 from tactica
- Gives sarges powerswords and comm. Powerfist
- 60/40/45

Officer Plasma Pistols:
- identical to SM plasma pistol upgrade.

Individual hero upgrades are previously mentioned in the unit descriptions( eviscerator, melta gun)

The Imperial Guard pop system:

An imperial guard general is accorded status by the number of platoons underhis control. Tanks and specialist units are not trusted to a commander who cannot hold the line with basic guardsmen. If a commander show his worth he will be allowed to use expert troops and hvy tanks – keep in mind that using these specialists does not ensure the same regard with the imperial command  the prevailing attitude is that if battles can be won with cheap expendable units of guardsmen rather than wasting elite troops it should be done. Any commander who relies on crack troops and too many tanks is clearly incompetent.

Essentially, imperial guard is and army of guardsmen – a cheap and relatively weak unit. It is not about elite kasrkin, brutish and filthy mutant ogryns or massed hvy weapons platoons or pure tank armies. Whilst these are important and support the core of guardsmen the fact remains that IG is about massed guardsmen first and foremost.

Therefore, every infantry unit adds to your total IG pop (use orky pop here).
Guardsmen squads add + 2

Karskin/commandsquad/ogryns/hvy platoons add + 1

Many IG units and tech require a certain minimum amount of infantry IG pop to allow their use:

T2 = 7 pop (or 3 guardsmen squads + comm squad)
T3 = 10 pop
Kasrkin/hvy platoons = 5 pop
Ogryns = 8 pop
Basilisk/Hellhound/Chimera = 10pop
Sentinel = 4 pop
LR = 12 pop
Baneblade = 14 pop

Thus at all times you will need a core of infantry to continue to produce and tech. Clearly basic guardsmen are the most pop friendly…..but elite unit armies are possible, if more restrictive.

Gah....finally found time to write it all up!

The researches aren't 100% complete but I think everything else is.

Feel free to ask questions etc.

The key things are a) we need the models fixed and b) we need to get the IG beta modded, see how it plays and then go forward.

There will be imba. There will be clunky play. Remember I had to theory craft and entire race in my head so there's going to be bugs. Still I think this is a really characterful army that's CLEARLY different from the existing races with a unique playstyle and differing tech system. We'll polish and develop ideas more as we go on but atm I think this is a great starting point.

- Korbah

[TrueTheReaper]

Hellhound:
- 2pop, max 4, 1500hp, veh_med, Wa 1.41 requirements, requires 10 ig/ork pop
- DoWpro Basilisk mov’t stats + 2max speed
Weapon:
- Traverse = 75
- Retain WA AoE stats
- Morale dps = 30
- Dps vs inf = 1.5x terminator heavy flamer
- DPS vs light vehs/buildings = 1.2x terminator thunder hammer
- DPS vs med vehs/buildings = ½ terminator thunder hammer
- DPS vs high vehs/buildings = ¼ terminator thunder hammer

Ey..... Where is my exploding/morale killing/bitchslapping suicide hellhound? Hmmh... i wonder if it is even moddable

Sounds..... It sounds...... It sounds damn fine. I can hardly wait. I don´t give rats ass about any christmas coming, i´m waiting for DoWpro IG version

[Tod]

After seeing Korbah's list, I'd definetly vote for trying out first and making a lot of patches. It's a huge amount of total units reworks (good thing), we'd better get testing asap.
An army which needs infantry on the field to tech up but takes heavy losses in every fight seems a bit unfocused though.

[mlai]

1. Cultist CC sucks but they do get 3 CC upgrades. I'm a heavy Cultist user and I see them get the job done on the battlefield; they just have a different role. IMO Zerks and Raptors have the real CC damage role.

2. IG nade launchers will also be FF correct?

3. I think each FD squad + Exarch should do the combined DPS and morale damage of 3 vanilla DOW brightlances.

4. There is no way to create a research which affects required_mob_bonus. Therefore, either Stormz get NL with 4 boyz, or Stormz are heavy. We can't combine the 2 changes. I don't know if that's clear...?

5. You don't want to implement bunker flamers and bunker lascannons? Key buildings should have bunker lascannon option. IG LPs should have bunker flamer option (an indisruptable flamer for guardsmen to dance around). And why shouldn't Sents have flamer option, what's the difference?

6. I don't think there's any way to do a "Smackdown" ability.

7. There's no way to scale stone costs.

8. Might have to do without HW platoon and all those fancy anims for a long time. Eh who needs them.