Validity of Ordo Xenos - Deathwatch

[Apocalypse_now1]

I have been pondering this for a while and would like to know how other people feel about the inclusion of the DeathWatch into the 40K universe.

I recently strained to come to terms with the Ultramarines allowing their brethren to serve in the DeathWatch and the whole ethos of Tyranic War Veterans, I can see why GW has done it from a marketing point of view but from a personal fluff view I think the force makes little sense.

Essentially you have a chapter packaging off some of its most promising young warriors to fight in a multi-chapter fighting force, gaining experience and defeating xenos along the way. However this because extremely strained when you include their command as the Inquisition. What we have now is Inquisitors commanding elements of the Astartes, a thing no SM Commander really wants as they enjoy their independence, and also very few chapters trust or listen to the Inquisition. The involvement of the Inquisition in the Badab wars led to the Lamentors joining the Astral Claws, thinking the Inquisition was declaring war on the SM Chapters.

Furthermore when you look at the low level aspects of the DeathWatch you can see several fatal flaws in sending off warriors to a multi-chapter force:

1. The apothecaries, if any will most likely not belong to the parent chapter of the fallen marines. This is a major problem as an Ultramarine removing a Blood Angel geneseed is not going to follow all the correct rituals, etc... and so the geneseed is essentially lost to the chapter.
2. All Chapters have their own methods of war, so by sending a marine from the Space Wolves to fight alongside the Salamander you achieve very little, the SW will want to charge the xenos and hack them to pieces with Blood Claw like glee while the Salamander will want to decimate them with hot lead. These various modus operandi cannot be supported in one squad, which is how the DeathWatch portrays them and so brethren must adjust their methods. Which again hampers their effectiveness when deployed back with their parent chapter.
3. When the brother marine returns to his chapter he may have been away for some time, possibly just guarding a necron tombworld and so will have little knowledge of his parent chapter's recent history and few ties to his brother marines, something terrible for units like Space Wolves who stick together their whole lives in packs.
4. The Chaplains of the parent chapters will not be there to help prepare their brethren for battle or fortify them against gene flaws such as the Red Thirst or Curse of Wulfen, meaning more problems.
5. One of the most effective motivators in the SM is devotion to the Emperor and the Chapter, if this devotion is replaced by devotion to their current comrades then the DeathWatch is essentially sowing seeds whereby loyalty to the Inquisition (Ordo Xenos) will supercede the parent Chapter, something to think about.
6. Several chapters hate each other and so you couldn't have them in the same battlefield.
7. If the parent chapter is based in the Wheel of Fire fighting Orks then what point is there for the Chapter Master to second his men to help fight a Hive Fleet? He gains nothing as the warrior will probably return with knowledge they never use or could get from other chapters (they share information you know).
8. If you send the marine off to war can you replace him? He may return and suddenly you end up with an additional 300 marines, something bound to turn heads in the Inquisition or quite useful if you want to rebel, send off 400 men to the Ordo Xenos for 10 years, get 300 back and hey presto you have almost doubled your chapter in time for a nice rebellion.
9. All chapters tend to fight Xenos at some point and their knowledge is kept within the Chapter, specifically sending men to a Xeno fighting Chapter makes no sense if you could have them with you and go do it yourself.
10. If he dies you gain nothing and lose a hell of a lot; a geneseed, a suit of marine armour and whatever promise he had. If he lives you get one marine with some experience of war against possibly a couple of xenos, this is not a good trade.

I short I can only see the DeathWatch in a negative light, if they had been created as a Chapter much like the Grey Knights then I believe the unit could have become a brilliant addition to 40K. As it is I view them as a marketing gimmick designed to give SM players access to multiple chapter insignia and a little extra punch against some foes, but on the whole completely unnecessary.

I hope to turn this into a thread of useful discussion so thanks for contributing

[Aron_DeTomado]

If you send the marine off to war can you replace him?

Yes. All Marines must serve in the Deathwatch for a period of time at least once in their life, so when the old DWers come back you send new recruits in.

Several chapters hate each other and so you couldn't have them in the same battlefield

There are roughly 1000 SM Chapters, I hardly beleave that an Inquisitor will field a Dark Angel with a Space Wolf. Or maybe he will, the marines will be honour bound to not to attack eachother during deathwatchduty and the rivalery will likley motivate them to press themselves to greater feats(Horus did this alot during the Great Crusade).

All Chapters have their own methods of war, so by sending a marine from the Space Wolves to fight alongside the Salamander you achieve very little, the SW will want to charge the xenos and hack them to pieces with Blood Claw like glee while the Salamander will want to decimate them with hot lead

Again, an inquisitor is not going to deploy a Blood Angel from the deathcompay in the same squad as a Long Fang.

The apothecaries, if any will most likely not belong to the parent chapter of the fallen marines

I'd guess that the recruit will be put in stasis and sent home if there is no appropriate Apothecary around. Though I beleave that he doesn't have to be from the marines own Chapter. A fallen Crimson Fist could probably have his geneseed extracted by an Imperial Fist, for example.

If the parent chapter is based in the Wheel of Fire fighting Orks then what point is there for the Chapter Master to second his men to help fight a Hive Fleet?

What is there to say that he will? If the Marine has great experience fighting orks he will most likley be fielded against orkz too. He and his comrades will share their experiences with eachother, and once he gets back he can tell his brothers of his enterprises.

[Stealthlazer]

1. I'm sure there's a standardised procedure for the geneseed removal which can be used without the rituals.
2. I suspect the discipline of the SM's will make sure problems like that are minimized.
3. No answer to this one.
4. Any with fatal flaws will no doubt not be allowed in and Chaplains are pretty similar as it is.
5. What's wrong with devotion to the Deathwatch?
6. Back to the discipline thing. The chapters may hate one another but the young warriors won't and either way they're disciplined enough not to care.
7. You never know where the enemies are gonna attack next....and real experience is better than being told it.
8. They don't send too many off at once. That would weaken the chapter.
9. They'll still be more specialist.
10. You could gain knowledge of weaknesses, etc that will save an entire company.

Well those are my ideas anyway. I dont' know much about DW and I'm probably fatally wrong in some areas but those are the answers I can think of. Have fun destroying them.

[Psymon]

if i understand it correctly the inquisition will single out promising xeno fighters and request that they join the deathwatch, but the SMs have the final desicion. also i expect the inquisitor would play to the SM's strengths ie. not send an ork fighter up against the tau.

also they probably get trained to fight all sorts of aliens from Eldar to necrons and as such when they return to the chapter they will enrich the chapter's knowledge of xeno tactics. eg. a chapter is fighting chaos Cultists around the Cadian Gate, then they are called away to fight of a Waaaaagh! somewhere. if they had a marine who had served with the deathwatch they would have knowledge of anti-ork tactics so they would have more autonomy as they wouldn't have to keep asking other chapters what to do

i expect that any armour or geneseed from dead SMs will be sent back to their parent chapters so as not to piss them off and if a marine comes back having been nreplaced then i think the inquisition will make an exception or possibly he will only be sent back when a chapter has 'vacancies'

[Apocalypse_now1]

The whole benefit of the DeathWatch is to serve against a Xeno you don't ordinarily fight, sending Ultramarine Tyrannic War Veterans against Tyranids gives no tangible benefit to the Chapter Master, who can opt out of the DeathWatch programme anytime he wishes, its his Chapter not the Inquisitions.

Also you state that a Long Fang will not be deployed alongside a Blood Angel assault marine (I'm guessing you didn't mean Death Company as you gain zero benefit from sending a dying marine to get experience in the DeathWatch), well I can see your point there, but only that i wouldn't send a Long Fang at all, I would only send inexperienced warriors to the Death Watch not my old and bold.

Also as far as I am aware the marines sent come from the reserve companies (makes sense not to send your Crux Terminatus boys) and so would be assault tactical or devastator, as Deathwatch seem to be Tactical orientated (I may be wrong have limited knowledge on this) an assault marine would have to use different skills to those he will use back in his chapter, not necessarily bad unless you are a blood claws space wolf.

Discipline can only go some way to preventing chapter feuds, if the Primarchs couldn't restrain themselves then I'm damn sure a feral Space Wolf of the Blood Claws can't. Russ and Johnson always fought, even Horus couldn't prevent that and tradition demands that should a Space Wolf meet a Dark Angel then a champion from each side must fight to satisfy honour. Chapter trumps DeathWatch or else we are insinuating Chapter traditions do not apply in the DeathWatch.
Furthermore the Dark Angels refuse to fight alongside any genetic abnormalities, making the particularly troublesome in a mulit-chapter force.

Lastly the Chapters all have their own version of worship for the Emperor, no Chapter is the same, with variations creeping into the successor chapters to account for local traditions. A Dark Angels Chaplain would not have a clue about Space Wolf rituals and vice versa.

Tanks for the points though guys!

[Andkat]

Chaplains are senior, members and I doubt that any are present in the Deathwatch, therefore mitigating some religious issues. The =I= would keep a close watch on the Deathwatch, and would probably prevent most contention. I doubt that they would ever recruit a SW, BA, or DA. the =I= isn't too friendly to the latter (and the SWs aren't too friendly with the =I=) due to their geneseed and the SW refusal to obey authority. The DA are paranoid over the =I= and probably wouldn't send anyone either. Rituals are irrelvent, it's not as if the geneseed explodes if you don't repear a specific prayer thrice, and the =I= would probably avoid placing utterly different or diametrically opposed chapters in the same groups. The Deathwatch are generally organized into small kill-teams attached to specific Inquisitors, and therefore they may be selective. And it's always good to have a veteran alienhunter in your Chapter in the event that an Alien he has fought against encounters or assaults the Chapter.

[Sword_Monkey]

The Adeptus Astartes have to obey the inquisition, if the inquisition are denied warriors they egt angry and start throwing 'excommunicate traitoris' everywhere, and they most certainly are trusted. A marine is less trustworthy than the inquisition, and so a marine will happily pledge his loyalty to the emperor by serving with the deathwatch for the duration of his placement.

As for your argument, GW have made this arny because the 40K fluff demands it, the imperium is without a SWAT or SAS equivialent, sure you have veterans but Deathwatch are the rare specially equipped well trained units that MUST exist and therefore demand recognition by the rules.

As for he problems that occur with placing marines side by side (chapter enmity, etc) the Inquisition are responsible for the Index Astartes, they know full well that some chapters dislike each other, and will not be stupid enough to place them together.

SM commanders that are required to serve in the deathwatch will at times act without the rule of the inquisition, this may be due to many differing circumstances, but it shows that the marines are quite content in their duty, and will follow their orders even without the inquisition present.

As it is I view them as a marketing gimmick designed to give SM players access to multiple chapter insignia and a little extra punch against some foes, but on the whole completely unnecessary.

....If anything GW are attempting to make SM players actually put insignia on their marines, the fact that a Deathwatch marine will always bear their insignia on one shoulder foces a player to paint their models accordingly. I see absolutley no advantage with this, and no gimmick, i severely doubt that there will be any rules for mixed chapter squads besides a quick side-note saying some chapers will not mix with some others.

[Andkat]

For the last time, the Adeptus Astartes DO NOT have to submit to the =I=. Excommunicate Traitoris and Extremis Diabolis are only declared if: The Chapters has gone renegade or that there is evidence that the Chapter or the Chapter geneseed is thoroughly corrrupt, the Chapter has VERY defective or mutated geneseed, or that the Chapter REALLY, REALLY, REALLY pisses of the =I= (i.e. kills an Inquisitor or something).

And the =I= will never try to screw with First Founding lest they be rightously pwned by a union of several FF chapters (this may also apply to the generally influential Second Founding).

A SW or DA can ignore the =I= all they want without the =I= assaulting them directly (unless heresey is discovered).

The Deathwatch is completely dominated by the Ordo Xenos, seeing as how the SM in question has placed himself willingly under =I= jurisdiction. Deathwatch rules are already in place in several articles and announcements, but unfortunetly an Alienhunters codex hasn't yet been released.

[ChunkyMrEvil]

As an aside- what would happen if a Blood Angel in the Deathwatch went mental, Death Company style? Aren't they meant to be hiding their flaws from the Inquisition?

[Sevorak]

A marine is less trustworthy than the inquisition

Hardly. The warriors of the Adeptus Astartes are revered and held high throughout the Imperium as examples of the Emperor's divine wrath and will, and to accuse one of heresy without a massively significant array of evidence is just screaming of suicidal intent. This holds especially true for the First Founding Chapters, and to even consider asking them is not a particularly intelligent thing to do...

The Space Marines are more devoted and more loyal to the Emperor than anyone, the Inquisition included. They've been righteously indoctrinated with the humanistic ideals of the Emperor, spend hours daily in prayer to him, and fight with a fanatical fervour unmatched among the rest of the Imperium's myriad subjects. Looking at the evidence, I'd say that the Adeptus Astartes are far more trusted and loyal than even the Inquisition.

[Aquila]

All Marines must serve in the Deathwatch for a period of time at least once in their life

I don't think that's true. Chapters take it as a matter of honor to provide recruits, but the organisation is far too small to require everyone to participate.

[Apocalypse_now1]

I don't think that's true. Chapters take it as a matter of honor to provide recruits, but the organisation is far too small to require everyone to participate.

Thanks for clearing that Sved I thought it was very strange.

Anyway anyone who wishes to tell the SM, a unit founded in traditions and rituals that the removal of their geneseed and indeed the teachings and worship of their version of the Imperial Cult are irrelevant may wish to have a Stasis field on stand-by because pretty soon you will resemble Guilliman... A corpse in stasis!
This notion is completely absurd, you really think anyone can rip a geneseed out and store it? It takes years to learn to be a Sanguinary Priest with the blood of Sanguinus himself in their veins, no other FF marine could perform your rituals and most wouldn't try.
Chaplains too are irreplacable, providing fortitude in times of woe by quoting 'Chapter history and tales of glory' to the brethren and leading them in prayer, this is impossible if your chaplain is 50,000 light years away on McCragge!

As for the DeathWatch being the SAS of the Imperial Forces, well no that is the SM legions, the entire point of the SM is to be a surgical scalpel to fend off the threat of xenos and heretics whenever they need impaling. Furthermore the DeathWatch are spread so thin they are inconsequential unless attached to another force, if they get 10 recruits from each Chapter that is only the same as 10 Chapters doing the same job, and the DeathWatch aren't one massive deployed force, they are individual squads deployed here and there, maybe a company, but no different to sending in a veteran company of normal SM.
In effect I still think they are a gimmick for those who buy ten warriors and add a couple of SW pelts and a nice cloak for a Dark Angel so their mass SM army doesn't get samey. The rules won't let them take advantage of each chapter rules per brethren I know.

Also I have to state that the GW models and artwork show Dark Angel and Space Wolf insignia on the DeathWatch in the same squad as an Ultramarine and several others, this again makes zero sense as no Inquisitor can stop SW and DA from pummeling each other.

Also finally as stated the DeathWatch is the perfect arena for the Inquisition to find all those fatally flawed geneseeds and trade secrets the chapters don't want them to know about. In short a very bad deal for the SM.

[Robert Frazer]

8. If you send the marine off to war can you replace him? He may return and suddenly you end up with an additional 300 marines, something bound to turn heads in the Inquisition or quite useful if you want to rebel, send off 400 men to the Ordo Xenos for 10 years, get 300 back and hey presto you have almost doubled your chapter in time for a nice rebellion.

Er...?

Before anything else, exactly why would a sudden influx of manpower encourage a Chapter to "rebel", and for what reason would they be rebelling, and against whom? There are certain virtues - such as loyalty, honour, faith, dignity and so forth - which exist to prevent such things.

The Deathwatch is not the Grey Knight's "opposite number", and entire chunks of Chapters aren't just arbitrarily sectioned in one great gulp. The Deathwatch isn't an organised army with a coherent chain of command, logistics etc. but rather an irregular and fluctuating assortment of individual and completely indepedent units, connected only by their ability to dip into the Ordo Xenos's pool of superior equipment and a common purpose of providing Inquisitors with some muscle should their investigations require it. Individual Inquisitors recruit their own small Kill-Teams (consisting only of a dozen Marines at the very most) for specific ad hoc roles, and select individual Marines by personal judgement. Not every Ordo Xenos Inquisitor has a Kill-Team attached to him, either, and those that do won't be accompanied by a Kill-Team for their entire length of service. Aliens are normal, tangible, physical beings - you can comprehend them, and they also tend to die when you shoot them up with bullets, whoever's firing them, be they Marine or normal human. You simply don't need a constant vigil of superhumans, unlike the unique and extra-ordinary threat of Chaos. As such, a Chapter will have a handful of Marines serving with the Deathwatch at any one time, not entire companies!

The recruitment of Marines from the conventional Chapters also has a good deal of legitimacy to it. We've already covered how a dedicated alienhunter Chapter is redundant, so gathering volunteers from the "ordinary" Marines when they're needed is resource-efficient. Again, the Deathwatch and the Grey Knights cannot be directly compared - the latter have a very limited and specific brief, which is reacting to and combating daemonic incursions. Deathwatch Kill-Teams, however, fulfil a much broader role - as they accompany an Inquisitor on his investigations, they may be called upon to do anything, whether it's gathering intelligence, selected assassination, planting bombs, travel amongst loyalist humans suffering under the yoke of the Tau or beleaguered by Genestealer Cultists and so restore morale, and the occasional blitz operation. It thus makes perfect sense to have a Kill-Team composed of specialists in different fields with different temperaments for different circumstances.

you really think anyone can rip a geneseed out and store it?

In a word - yes. What do Apothecaries do to recover geneseed from the battlefield? What happens to the tithe of geneseed that Chapters are obliged to regularly furnish the Adeptus Mechanicus with? They don't play conkers with them.

As for the DeathWatch being the SAS of the Imperial Forces, well no that is the SM legions, the entire point of the SM is to be a surgical scalpel to fend off the threat of xenos and heretics whenever they need impaling. Furthermore the DeathWatch are spread so thin they are inconsequential unless attached to another force, if they get 10 recruits from each Chapter that is only the same as 10 Chapters doing the same job, and the DeathWatch aren't one massive deployed force, they are individual squads deployed here and there, maybe a company, but no different to sending in a veteran company of normal SM.

The Deathwatch doesn't exist to fight wars, it's there to support Inquisitors in the field whilst maintaining their secrecy - so it's not "ineffective" in being segregated into many separate units, as it is operating in a fundamentally different manner to the Space Marines as a whole.

Also I have to state that the GW models and artwork show Dark Angel and Space Wolf insignia on the DeathWatch in the same squad as an Ultramarine and several others, this again makes zero sense as no Inquisitor can stop SW and DA from pummeling each other.

To respond to a specific point first of all, you're exaggerating the Space Wolf/Dark Angel 'hatred' wildly. The two Chapters don't break out into open warfare with each other at every opportunity. When they meet, they each select a pugilist for their traditional boxing match of a duel, and then honour is satisfied and they are willing to co-operate. Even if the Marines of one chapter might sneer and make vulgar jokes about the other in the drinking hall or sacristy of contemplation, that doesn't alter the fact that both have a duty to perform defending the Imperium.

You're also exaggerating the "hatred" that exists between some of the Chapters in general. Rivalries and animosities exist, yes, but that hardly constitutes open violence between them whenever they encounter one another - they are not petulant whinging toddlers, they are Bright Stars in the Firmament of Battle. Smiting the Emperor's enemies overcomes all else. A calculating an politically-minded Inquisitor may even recognise that a degree of strain between Kill-Team members will increase performance: take the classic Space Wolf - Dark Angel division. In the Deathwatch comic serialised in Warhammer Monthly, the team included a Space Wolf and a Dark Angel. They made every effort to cover each other's back and co-operate, because each wanted the other alive at the end of the mission so they could have their ritual dust-up!

[Variatas]

This is why no one messes with the lord of all fluff.

Who beat me to point out the rivalries bit and pretty much everything I was going to say is barely worthy of pointing out now.
Some Xenos, however do represent an extraordinary threat, Necrons, Tyranids etc. and so would warrant a larger response, but would never include more than a handful of marines.

[Apocalypse_now1]

Thanks guys you have cleared a few things up for me, my knowledge of DeathWatch literally comes from the ramblings I have read on this and other forums and the jist of what I had been lead to believe was Johnny Inquisitor turns up and demands a shed load of recruits every year to enter the DeathWatch, these are seconded to the Inquisitor. Said Iquisitor now has vast numbers of men sitting around on Necron tomb worlds and watching Hive Fleets, which to me sounds like a pointless exercise when a normal Chapter can do the job.
As you state if the Ordo Xenos were to function exactly like the Grey Knights then the overlap with ordinary marine forces would make them nonesensical.

However I would dispute the whole any apothecary could whip out the geneseed as although the process general involves carving the unfortunate marine up or helping him on his way with Mr Bolter first there is a whole level of ritual associated with the removal and implantation. I remember reading in the old fluff how an Ultramarine apothecary can do little for a Space Wolf dying on some planet and so helps him on his way with a bolt pistol, leaving his body for the attentions of his chapter. If I could remember where I read it I would post but I can't sorry.

I still believe the DeathWatch is a rather unnecessary force but am glad to hear they are a lot smaller than many people state, in other areas people seem to think the stnading force is hundreds of thousands of marines and I was hoping that was false.

The rebellion thing was just my way of showing how someone like Lufgt Huron could exploit the system that's all and yes I did exagerate the SW vs DA bit to prove a point but several Chapters have gone to war and such conflicts do flare up from time to time as detailed in the fluff.

Cheers again Rob its nice to have you back, I've been getting too many arguements going my way!

[MooFreaky]

A calculating an politically-minded Inquisitor may even recognise that a degree of strain between Kill-Team members will increase performance: take the classic Space Wolf - Dark Angel division. In the Deathwatch comic serialised in Warhammer Monthly, the team included a Space Wolf and a Dark Angel. They made every effort to cover each other's back and co-operate, because each wanted the other alive at the end of the mission so they could have their ritual dust-up!

If you want a good example of this. Look at the Lord of the Rings. Legolas and Gimli were driven to excessive hights in combat, as they desperately tried to outdo eachother.
It's the best example I could think of that most people would udnerstand.

However I would dispute the whole any apothecary could whip out the geneseed as although the process general involves carving the unfortunate marine up or helping him on his way with Mr Bolter first there is a whole level of ritual associated with the removal and implantation.

The Imperium is shrouded in ritual and such. It doesn't mean it is actually necessary. Just because they believe it, doesn't make it so. Any apothocary could take out another marine's geneseed and it would be fine. The Apothocary from the dying marine's chapter may be appaled, as they believe that marine has been violated and shown improper treatment. But the fact is it would still work.

It's the same concept as the Admechs have so much ritual involving weapons and technology. It takes them forever to build things, because they want to make the machine god happy. But the fact is the Tau and Eldar don't have such rituals and their technology works just fine.

They are simply caught up in their beliefs, which are not correct.

[ZellFish]

I'm going to respond to number four of the original post, As to the Wulfen Curse. The Wulfen issue only occurs at the drinking of blood from the Chalice that Grimaldus hands to the Blood Claws upon innitiation. (Either him or a Rune Priest) It then would only crop up durring implants and training. Read the books about Ragnar. Black Library has a ton of good fluff-background stuff. (Disregard Inquisiton War. It does not count. He was crazy for writing it.)

@ MooFreaky: The Adeptus PReists of Mars are all under some odd contortion of the C'tan, with their worship of the Dragon of Something or another.

[Aron_DeTomado]

If you read the battlereport in WD 306 you realise why DW killteams aren't pointless: They took out twice their pointsvalue in Tyranids(734points) without suffering any losses themselves. And people say the TT SM don't do the fluff justice...

[Zatrais]

It's worth to note that the deathwatch is primarily an all voulenter force made up of chapters who rigdidly adhere to the codex astartes. Many of the problems with the extreme chapters like the SW and BA won't happen cause well they don't make up the deathwatch.

I doubt the chaplains and apothecaries will have any problems either with the chapters that make up the deathwatch as they're so simular in their structure and belifs. Add to that that the marines in the deathwatch voulenteers to boot then it's very dubious the marine cares if it's a scythes of the emperor or a lamenter sending his geneseed back to his chapter.

[Apocalypse_now1]

Ritual is the foundation of the Chapter, take that away and half of a Marines day is meaningless, you are telling me the apothecary would be appalled? He would most likely believe the geneseed corrupted and have to dispose of it seeing as how it was incorrectly treated. Christ these guys won't fire a bolt gun unless they have applied the correct litanies and scriptures let alone carving up their fellow marines! Not only would the chapter most likely see it as an affront but it could even lead to open conflict.

As for the battle report no I haven't seen it, I stopped buying Waste Drain after WD 230 as I don't like reading my codex a page at a time to buy it anyway or view a nice model catalogue, ah for the good old days of WD 15 - 120. I digress now back to the points.
If I am reading these posts correctly the Inquisition asks for the better elements of the Chapter and takes maybe one or two max (no problem there), but several people have stated that good Ork fighters will be pitched against Orks. This puzzles me as the only tangible benefit to a Chapter master would be the experience gained in a reserve company battle brother fighting new threats and gaining valuable experience. Sending a veteran to fight enemies he has fought for centuries bears no fruit to the Chapter, which has no obligations and so would need an incentive.

Again thanks for all the posts.

[Sword_Monkey]

AAAGH! i ma gonna have to change my syntax, i use too many 'have to' and 'must's. Why do people take stuff so literally, i meant marines look upto the inquisition and are obliged to obey them. The inquisition holds a lot of power, they can mock marines or make them look bad, even call them traitors. Analogy - you obey your parents alot of the time, but you don't have too. Marines obey the Inquisition, but they don't have too, in both cases there are consequences. That all i was sayng - A marine will alomost certainly always obey an inquisitor, through trust and belief. So sorry to Andkat, you pedantic person you.

i shall make sure i am clearer in future.

Hey Apocalypse wat are your current thoights on the whle validity thing, this far through the discussion? Have they changed? I am asking cos you don't seem like the most pro-GW player/fluffer, you have stopped reading 'waste drain' and your tone about GW marketing schemes is quite negative, is the discussion making you look at Deathwatch objectively or are you still biased?

[Apocalypse_now1]

Still biased but more as to why the DeathWatch exists at all. All the Inquisition seem to offer the SM is to equip them with better weaponry and teach them a little more about xenos, not entirely going to account for the extra killing potential they seem to have, I mean I'm sure the Chapter teaches even the most stupid initiate where to pummel the Carnifex to make it drop or don't drill the Hormagaunt slot the Hive Tyrant. The level of performance increase for a squad of DeathWatch seems wholely disproportionate. I may be understating it and look forward to be corrected if I'm wrong.

It strikes me as very Andy McNabish, in that everyone seems to think the boys from Hereford (SAS) are able to single-handedly fell armies, they aren't its the Sun newspaper that tries to make you think that because they have better kit and are generally hard as coffin nails, but one guy with a well placed round can drop them just the same.

Yes I am negative but I am a very old and very jaded GW player and have had my fallings out with the powers of GW a long time ago, don't take my general regard for GW as a money-making enterprise (which of course they have to be) as too harsh a reflection on the DeathWatch, more I regard them as not really fitting the 40K arena. In TT I'm sure they fit in great for IG and SM players but I am looking at this from a fluffy position.
I still love 40K though so don't worry I'm not a muppet here to make trouble honest, I only seek enlightenment!

[mogs]

If I am reading these posts correctly the Inquisition asks for the better elements of the Chapter and takes maybe one or two max (no problem there), but several people have stated that good Ork fighters will be pitched against Orks. This puzzles me as the only tangible benefit to a Chapter master would be the experience gained in a reserve company battle brother fighting new threats and gaining valuable experience. Sending a veteran to fight enemies he has fought for centuries bears no fruit to the Chapter, which has no obligations and so would need an incentive.

I would think a Chapter Master would see it as a huge honour that a Marine from his Chapter has been chosen to be a member of the elite Deathwatch and it would be celebrated and recorded in the chapter’s history. Many Chapters have also sworn oaths to maintain specially trained alien fighters who stand ready to be deployed at a moments notice.

Also a Deathwatch kill team doesn’t have to be lead by an Inquisitor, there have been occasions where a Marine Captain or other high ranking Marine has assumed command.

[Andkat]

The Deathwatch would perform very specialized, generally group-roles that normal Chapters would be too busy to manage or would lack the experience or equipment to execute. The Deathwatch don't have to brood over defending their homeworld or managing multiple system invasion at once. They have a specified role. They can abandon everything and go for the alien, and additionally have the time to perform roles that a normal chapter would be too busy to do (guarding a tombworld, hunting down specific aliens).

[Apocalypse_now1]

Andkat those are still roles that elements of a chapter could fulfill, for instance guarding a tomb world, well the Imperial Fists shadowed craftsworld when they lost Dorn.

Also individual companies or squads of any chapter could hunt a specific alien if allowed to do so, the only difference I see is that the DeathWatch get juicier upgrades and weapon systems. In TT this is great, but in a 40K system the guy is going to hand them back someday.


I still cannot bring myself to reconcile the SM allowing the Inquisition to interfere in their affairs except on terms favourable to them, this maybe just me but essentially the Inquisition now has access to the one element of Imperial power that has always ignored them when needs be, the Legio Astartes.

As for Inquisitors loving the Inquisition I find that very hard to stomach, the Astartes barely acknowledge the Inquisition at the best of times and many in the Inquisition regard the SM as mutants, regarding them with suspicion. I don't see this as a good mix when the Inquisitors are prone to scouring SM planets at the drop of a hat (see Flame Falcons demise on Leythe).

On a side note can anyone tell me why the Flame Falcons were purged by the Grey Knights, being as how it was their spontaneous genetic mutation and not daemonic possession that prompted the move? I know they called in a Daemonhunter when their brethren caught fire but surely their homeworld needed the attentions of the Witch Hunters not the Daemonhunters.

Again thanks for the informative posts guys

[Andkat]

Perhaps it's due to the fact that they where cursed founding or where over-mutated beyind acceptable levels. The =I= would probably purge the SW or BA if they weren't 1st or 2nd founding.

[Apocalypse_now1]

Yes but why the Daemonhunters and not the Witch Hunters?

[Andkat]

Some of the mutations derived from the Cursed Founding bean to resemble daemonhood in some respects. More likely that the OM was either in greatest proximity to the chapter, that the OM intially discovered the horrendous mutation prevalent among members of the chapter, or that the chapter was too powerful for the available SOB's and OH.

[Apocalypse_now1]

I'm waiting for Rob's take on this but the Flame Falcons mutated in their first combat to spontaneously combust and still live, becoming flame wreathed marines still fighting in the name of the Emperor. The Daemonhunter summoned in case it was witchcraft (by the Chapter itself) found no evidence of witch craft but had the chapter purged for mutation by the GK after the battle was over. If he waited this long then surely he could have handed it over to the OH instead of taking it upon himself to involve the OM and GK in something that is not in their remit!

[Andkat]

Perhaps he was paranoid (would the FF assault them as they departed from the field for their discovery? Would the FF fall to Chaos in the time required for the OH to arrive? Would they go renegade before the OH arrived and kill everyone? Perhaps they are just fans of overkill?).

[Apocalypse_now1]

Of course he's paranoid he's an Inquisitor its part of the job!

[mogs]

Witch craft within the Imperium can regarded as the power to wield the forces of the warp and could be construed as a form of worship of the Gods of Chaos. Members of the Ordo Herticus are manly concerned with the destruction of the mutant and the Heretic. The flame Falcons were not mutants like other members of the cursed founding but instead possessed a power that to all intense purposes was unnatural and could have been warp borne which falls under the jurisdiction of the Ordo Malleus. This along with the fact they were Adeptus Astrates would mean that the Grey Knights were the best choice for dealing with them.

[Apocalypse_now1]

But the Inquisitor himself stated there was no daemonic entities or Chaos at work, he just used the GK as his personal SM killing machine. That strikes me as one of the greatest problems of the Inquisition at large, they do not view any other organisation as having the same legitimacy as others and answer only to their own kind on the basis of acting on the Emperor's will.

Grey Knights are reserved for fighting daemons not any old marines an Inquisitor dislikes because they are sheathed in flame. The very worrying activities of normal inquisitors, let alone the daemon-binding progressive elements leaves me pondering just how good is the Astartes as a force in the Imperium when the Inquisition begins to get involved, albeit in a very tiny way.

[Sword_Monkey]

I think i see your point now Apocalypse - you beleive that instead of Deathwatch there should be a SWAT/SAS equivalent in each chapter. I guess it makes sense. Having Deathwatch creates an unecessary amount of extra fluff being made, i have to say the surrent fluff makes sense quite well, but your idea simply makes more sense.

[Aron_DeTomado]

First off, most SM don't give a damn shit about the =I=. DoW is a good example(yes, the campaign isn't all that far off, fluff-wise): Inquisitor Toth orders(or attempts to) the Blood Ravens to leave the planet, but Gabriel is still like "Hey, fuck off".
Secondly, Deathwatch allows Chapters to share experience with each other, and in an Imperium full of animosity, this kind of bonding is good. It also gives Ordo Xenos Inqs some beefier toys to play with.

[Apocalypse_now1]

Chapters already share experiences and tech, that's why the MkIV and MkIII came about, with individual chapter experimentation being shared amongst the brother chapters.

Sword bang on what I was going for mate thanks for picking that up, DeathWatch is the equivalent of Tyrannic War Veterans but with better kit and a little more diversity, but I have yet to hear of Terminator DeathWatch marines (nor would I want that). If you want compact small team firepower take a nice Terminator Squad or two from a Chapter by giving them the mission, add a Librarian or other small command team and you have a self-contained mini-strike force requiring no intervention from the Inquisition.

[Aron_DeTomado]

Deathwatch pwnz
Terminator Armour is far to valuble to commit to the Deathwatch. In addition it is also to cumbersome to fit the kind of missions that the DW killteams undertake.
Now, in addition to improving the ties between chapters, the Deathwatch is also a great resource for the inquisition to when stormtroopers are inadequate. It also, as someone mentioned, allows the =I= to get "under the skin" of some SM chapters, something they might not be able to do normally.

[MooFreaky]

Also there is a big difference between simply being more effective at killing an enemy (which marines already are) and having a very deep understanding of enemy tactics and such. While Marines know the best ways to kill Tyranids, it takes alot of exposure to truely understand their tactical patterns and effective counter tactics. SImple things like, killing the Tyrant not the Gaunts, is fine to a point. But there still needs to be a more widespread plan of attack. And even the Marines don't always have the experience with a particular enemy to do this.
But the Deathwatch can teach its members extensively about such things. They can learn all about the enemy, to a much greater detail than their chapter (and over a much quicker period of time!) because they are exposed to it much more.

It also makes sense to give the =I= some tools that can really do the job they need. The job Inqisitors do, while not always respected by the Marines, is an important one for the Imperium as a whole. And they need to be able to do their job, even when there is alot of danger involved. And there are times that their mission is too secret to let the Marines in on EXACTLY what is going on. So they may not get the support they need. But with the Deathwatch, they can easily get what they need to do the job, while maintaining their secrecy.

[Zatrais]

Apocalypse_now1 i think you're viewing the deathwatch from the wrong perspective, the deathwatch does not exist for the benefit of the chapters who send marines to it but for the benefit of the inquisition.... It's a service granted by the marines so that the ordo xenos can better do their job, like what happened with hive fleet leviathan. While inqusitiorial stormtroopers are the best there is it's dubious if they could pull off what the deathwatch did.

At their most basic level marines serve the imperium and that is what a marine does when he voulenteers to fight for the deathwatch, he's not out to gain something beneficial for his chapter.

[Sword_Monkey]

Hey in the ordo xenos codex you can bet their will be radical =I= who cannot use deathwatch marines. They can do their job just as well without Deathwatch, just like a radical malleus can do without grey knights.

It would make more sense if chapters had their own 'deathwatch' like squads, who could then be enlisted by =I='s, the idea of grabbing the odd soldier from each chapter and forming a squad that is meant to work in pure harmony is kinda ridiculous, let alone the annoying fluff that develops - what happens when a Blood angel falls to the rage, and his fellow ultramarines and space wolves have to watch him charge into the enemy?

Apoc, makes a good point about the Tyrannic war vets, they ahve developed their own weapons against the nids, so they are by far the best form of defence/offense against nids. It makes sense to say that each chapter will have such specialities, and will be the source of new ammunition and tactics, instead of some ramshackle group that recieves hellfire ammo from techpriests who have never seen a nid.

However i am sure that the codex will take into account, complaining fol like some of us, and it will be possible for us to field pure chapter sqads, with specialist equipment, and led by a commander. No =I= in sight.

[Andkat]

I believe GW reffered to a WIP Ordo Xenos some time ago (I can't recall where). I believe that they stated that the Ordo Xenos structure would be completely or very different from the other =I= factions, so they would probably lack the whole "Radical" aspect. Especially since the Deathwatch uses some Xenos=derived equipment, I believe.

[Zatrais]

The deathwatch kill teams train together to function as a team inside inqisitional strongholds before going off into the field and the deathwatch is made up of almost all codex chapters so a BA in the deathwatch along with a space marine is highly unlikely. An Ultramarine isn't tho.

[mogs]

But the Inquisitor himself stated there was no daemonic entities or Chaos at work, he just used the GK as his personal SM killing machine.

No he didn’t, he waited until the whole chapter underwent the change that the 1st Company had experienced. The Inquisitor in question must have had quite a lot of clout within the ranks of the Ordo Malleus as the Grey Knights themselves would have only attacked with the expressed orders of the High Lords or a senior member of the Inquisition.

Edit: Not enough is really known about the whole story so there could be another hidden agenda.

It would make more sense if chapters had their own 'deathwatch' like squads, who could then be enlisted by =I='s, the idea of grabbing the odd soldier from each chapter and forming a squad that is meant to work in pure harmony is kinda ridiculous, let alone the annoying fluff that develops - what happens when a Blood angel falls to the rage, and his fellow ultramarines and space wolves have to watch him charge into the enemy?

This more or less what happens, Marines who show a natural ability to destroy the Xenos are trained as special Xeno hunters within their own Chapter and receive more intense training and specific Information once they get the orders to deploy by the Inquisition. Why is ridiculous that a squad made up of 5 Marines from various Chapters cannot get along as they all have the same basic training. The Deathwatch doesn’t just randomly select a Marine to become a member, there are selection process and certain traits that all members of the Deathwatch have.

[Aron_DeTomado]

mogs makes a good point there: All chapter might not have a squadful of anti-ork vets at any one time.
Even if they did, operating outside the Ordo Xenos would not grant you those funky AdMech weapons.

Hey in the ordo xenos codex you can bet their will be radical =I= who cannot use deathwatch marines. They can do their job just as well without Deathwatch, just like a radical malleus can do without grey knights

The reason Radical Malleus Inqs get manage without GKs might have something to do with the allpwerful greater daemon strapped into the body of a selected host.
And just because some missions do not warrant the attention of GKs or DW does not mean they are not needed.

[Sword_Monkey]

funky AdMech weapons.

not necessarily, the ultramarines hellfire ammo, is not admech, the chapter techmarines developed them, in order to fight the nids.

I am just saying that a chapter spec-ops team makes more sense than an =I= formed team. Why waste so much time collecting marines from chapters far away from each other, making sure they will work as a team well, making sure none fall to the black rage, and other special abilities. All you need to do is get an =I= operating near to a chapter to have the chapters spec-ops team guard him for the duration of his investigation into the xenos-stuff.

And how many Deathwatch teams do you think there are? A chapter will probably have many men in deathwatch teams around the galaxy at one time. And it wouldn't take that long to form a team of veterans into a squad that gets special training.

[Zatrais]

Why should the inquisition have to run around asking for chapters to help them and hope those chapters have the marines available that they need for an urgen mission when they can recruit voulenteers from Codex Chapters (black rage won't be an issue when there are no BA's around or any other wierd things cause they can just turn those down), train them, diversify their holdings so that they not get bound to befriending a chapter in a region in order to get the support from a specific chapter and place the kill teams where they need them to be so they can react at a moments notice from inquisitonal authority...

[Sword_Monkey]

When an =I= needs a deathwatch on sudden notice you think it would be faster to go and jet across the universe picking up a marine or two froma few chapters and call them deathwatch??!?!

Why do that when you can simply declare that a chapter must have a deathwatch team of it's own on standby constantly, ready to fight with the chapter at a moments notice or protect an =I= during an investigation.

[Andkat]

Most Inquisitors have preestablished Deathwatch groups assigned to them that travel with them. They don't just burst into a fortress-monastary and demand recruits.

[Zatrais]

When an =I= needs a deathwatch on sudden notice you think it would be faster to go and jet across the universe picking up a marine or two froma few chapters and call them deathwatch??!?!

The deathwatch is not an ad-hoc organisation where the inquisitors just pick up random marines. Kill teams are trained and stationed in inquisitional strongholds located all over the galaxy, other bases or maybe even on the extremely fast ships of the inquisition.

[Andkat]

Often, kill-teams are also permanently attached to specific Inquisitors for the entirety of their service (or until it is seen fit by the Inquisitor or his leaders to modify the arrangement).