Chaplain healing needs to change?

[Zappa]

I dunno what the general consensus around here is, but I feel chaplain healing is a bit overpowered in tier 2. Either tone it down a little or move it up tiers.
SM get all kinds of great stuff in tier 2, I'm not sure they need the überpowerful healing of the chaplain to stay competive before tier 3. They have apothecaries after all, the best healers in the game + the use of the librarian has dropped after the arrival of the chaplain.

I also think he is kinda cheap for what he does and that his own healing makes him kinda powerful for cost. The best thing for both sm and chap balance would be to move him to a later tier since a lot of players have grown accustomed to this kind of healing he provides and would scream out loud at the prospect of losing it. It could even be a researchable ability like the battle shout when orbital relay is up or received once it's constructed.

Anyways it is way too powerful in combination with SM units in a mass cc because it's hard to focus fire on a unit in cc, which makes the healing even more powerful. I can see chap+apothecaries used with terminators or tacs necessary to fight posessed/fully upgraded banshees in tier 3-4.

Weakening\moving chaplain healing would probably lead to a lot of players going librarian, whom I feel is a much more balanced and reasonable hero to have in tier 2 compared to the chaplain.

Fluff-wise the chaplain as far as i know also hold a very high position in a sm chapter, so it would make sense that he's arriving with the elite troops, aka termies. Please try to make this discussion reasonable and don't mingle it up with the reaper thingy or other threads. Keep on the subject: chaplain arrival time in tiers and power of healing.

I'm trying to approach this as softly as possible, so be polite people.

[Lazerguy]

Chaplain at tier 3 is the bread and butter solution, but I feel that taking away healing and giving him a good morale regen aura and equal HP to the FC might be more appropriate. I'd like to see more morale buffing units and less morale immunity in general, but that is just my opinion.

[[eX]Xerxes]

4x healing = fine. It's the 16x one that's a problem. I love Ivan, so leave him in tier 2 plz. We'll never see him in tier 3

[timotheus]

Sure we will, Ivan will be on ranged in middle of AssTermi mass.

[Chris]

Space marines really don't need morale buffing, they have enough morale bonus' with sergeants and rallying at 50. 4Xhealing that doesn't stack with anything else and also lowering his DPS against vehicles should be enough of a nerf.

He's fairly expensive and takes a long time to build, generally speaking I can only just afford him once I hit tier 2 which means no armoury upgrades or heavy weapons for a while. If his healing gets nerfed he'll still be worth every penny.

[HaXxorIzed]

I think xerxes is right. Healing stacking from apoths needs to go, but ivan isn't bad. His shout might be a bit nuts, but the healing aura doesn't seem to imbalance matchups. He is howver, a "must have unit" and that takes away some strategy from the game.

[Lazerguy]

Space marines really don't need morale buffing, they have enough morale bonus' with sergeants and rallying at 50. 4Xhealing that doesn't stack with anything else and also lowering his DPS against vehicles should be enough of a nerf.

I don't want to buff morale. I want to restructure it so that taking apart a SM force piece-meal has greater effect then simply throwing units at it. Morale should be the greatest strength of a SM force, and it should have weaknesses. If that requires removing the sickening ammount of morale immune units in WA, then so be it.

He's fairly expensive and takes a long time to build, generally speaking I can only just afford him once I hit tier 2 which means no armoury upgrades or heavy weapons for a while. If his healing gets nerfed he'll still be worth every penny.

Rememeber that plasma is in for a nerf, and a chaplain has no justifiable right to grant healing when apoths serve that purpose fine, better then fine infact.

[santiago4ever]

I say atleast change his short range auro to x2 instead of x4 so that he has x8 healing in close and x4 healing at longer distances.

[White_Pointer]

I say stick him in tier 3 and leave him as is.

I have not seen ONE valid arguement as to why SM should get 3 heroes and 5 healer units in tier 2. Not a single one.

Chap in tier 3, problem solved. SM hardly need him in tier 2 to be competitive.

White_Pointer

[Benjamin]

I have not seen ONE valid arguement as to why SM should get 3 heroes and 5 healer units in tier 2. Not a single one.

Without the chaplin the SM would be worse off, he's good at saving the sm from losing so early on in the game. Without him, playing SM would be a bit more tricky.

The chaplin is not an amazing super unit that doesnt die, his CC against buidings is pritty low, his healing is usefull but not so much that it makes nearby squads impossible to beat. I don't see anything wrong with him. It gives a slight edge to the Sm player...but nothing amazing that can't be countered.

and 5 healer units in tier 2.

To go on to apotheterys...well...theyre pritty rubbish realy, they can be a little bit useful, but hardly worth the effort to even consider using them...thats how rubbish they are...sending 4 of them together can be a good meatsheild....somtimes...

I don't see these units to be such a probblem that some people are making out to be.

Fluff-wise the chaplain as far as i know also hold a very high position in a sm chapter, so it would make sense that he's arriving with the elite troops, aka termies.

I don't realy see the issue here...does it say in the tt rules or fluff that the chaplin only & always arives with the termies in a fight? I dont think thats a reason to move back the chaplin


A req/power increase I think is a reasonable option

[fuggles]

Apothecarys rubbish? You attach them to squads and forget them, not hard to use but amount to 16X healing rate for all squads in the area!

[SpaceMarineJoe]

Saying SM has 3 heroes and 5 healers is kinda funny cause its obviously just an attempt to get them removed but you gotta show us how this is OPed under normal(non QS) circumstances where everything costs money? Orks get manz which is like a lot of heroes in one and seer council pwns up all heroes.

Chaplain is hardly that difficult to kill with only 1200 HP and not much run speed. After apoth is nerfed, people will think twice about spamming them but its not the problem that you can have 5 healers in tier 2 and just that those healers are broken. Chaplain needs his 10 radius healing removed and no one will complain about him anymore and I can t tell you when the last time I saw an SM player field THREE heroes. The sorceror is pretty expensive and WoTE research is even longer and cuts into what I Could be spending to increase my army.

[santiago4ever]

and while you're concentrating your fire on that poor weak chaplain your tac mass will just stand aside and let him die? or will they open up a can of whopass and kill all your infantry in 3 seconds flat?

[DukeRustfield]

Saying Chaplains aren't hard to kill has got to be the quote of the day. His only "problem" is that he tends to run off and bash stuff. So upgrade to plasma pistols, put him on F2/F7 and make sure he stays in the middle of your troops. Apothecaries around, even better.

But if you think they are easy to kill then you have never fought them.

[Chris]

Generally I won't see all 3 heroes until very late tier 2 since the machine cult seems to take priority over the sacred artifact in Winter Assault. In vanilla DoW Word of the emperor was a 'must-have' ability because it allowed you to pwn all other armies in a shoot out. In WA tier 2 is more CC focused with ASMs, banshees, zerkers and nobz so healing from the chaplain and his shout abilitiy are more important than WoTE.

Having 5 healers won't be an issue if their healing rates get fixed.

[SpaceMarineJoe]

Ok see the healing problem does not really present itself when a chaplain sets himself to ranged stance. People have to understand that the 16x healing is only within a 10 radius. A plasma pistol has like 30? He shoots up a distance to 3x that healing aura.

Now tacs are dancing in every which direction while ASMs are in melee. Now orks have a hell of a time killin ASMs in tier 2 sure but other races like IG command squad can drop a chap pretty damn quick or even a single priest kills a chaplain AMAZINGLY fast and 100% beats chaps in CC.

Eldar just has to attack with a squad of shees and some mind war/psychic storm which doesn t really pay attention to armour type(and upgraded shees do not die in 3 seconds...). Zerkers have the craziest commander dmg too and there hero has a great slow ability if he can land a few hits.

If you lose a few units, it still will be worth it cause now the SM has no more healing so that 50% more DPS zerks has is actually 50% more DPS now and chaplain costs about the price of 5 zerks and then some + takes forever to get out again.

[DukeRustfield]

Chaplain CAN shoot far away. But so what? F2/F7 is just to prevent him from running off. He can shoot someone 2 feet away from him with his ASM's right by his side and his Tacs just behind him. That's what I did anyway when I got annoyed of him sprinting away to go punch a building.

other races like IG command squad can drop a chap pretty damn quick or even a single priest kills a chaplain AMAZINGLY fast and 100% beats chaps in CC

Not the command squad Priest and I seriously doubt the regular one, which has less than half the health as Chap and does a lot less dmg...so I can't imagine how he would win, especially when you factor in healing. And as was pointed out elsewhere, because Priests come from the HQ and the HQ is used for teching, you almost never see IG "heroes" past original Commissars until like Tier3 because you are busy teching. So IG is only going to have CS to fight a Chaplain/FC and they'll lose badly.

[Zappa]

ASM doesnt need bionics to beat CoW banshees, all they need is chaplain joe. I got a replay to prove it.

[Da_Fish]

Then do so. It's a rare thing seeing Ivan & Co. beating CoW Shees without Bionics.

[SpaceMarineJoe]

Ya and dont send one to us like that last one where you beat an eldar who built rangers and had 800 floating.

Ya and dont send one to us like that last one where you beat an eldar who built rangers and had 800 floating.

Duke your point is how OPed the chaps healing is and how he can avoid a lot of dmg by shooting in the back. If he is standing rite in the middle, not to mention combat is constantly on the move specially when it comes to CC, how is he really much safer to shees that are trying to surround him and kill him or zerks doing the same or MW or ranged attacks?

[psychodil]

1200 HP is pretty misguiding as he heals far faster than any other hero at that stage. Its hard to quantify but I would say he is as hard to kill as the FC. The chaplain always has to be your No.1 target in a fight though, which is a clue he may be overpowered.

I dont want to see him in tier 3, unless they make tier 3 viable for other races apart from IG and SM. He is fine in tier 2 as long as his healing is reduced to normal levels.

[Zappa]

Ya and dont send one to us like that last one where you beat an eldar who built rangers and had 800 floating.


Duke your point is how OPed the chaps healing is and how he can avoid a lot of dmg by shooting in the back. If he is standing rite in the middle, not to mention combat is constantly on the move specially when it comes to CC, how is he really much safer to shees that are trying to surround him and kill him or zerks doing the same or MW or ranged attacks?

It's in the battle archives.

[SpaceMarineJoe]

I am sure you mean this one:
http://forums.relicnews.com/showthread.php?t=83212

Here is the msg I left for you on this one. You were plagued by horrible pathing and lag I assume and also, you really should have gotten entangle.

This is the msg I left for you there.

Ok well here is where it went wrong(I am assuming you are babbling fool).

First of all saying all he has is ASMs and chaplain is misleading to begin with... you spent way too much on guardians in the beginning that did jack instead of reapers who would have been more worth your money than getting entangleless guardians with seers only. Reapers would not be ignored and killed like guardians and you over reinoforced them instead of teching.

The reason you lost. First of all you were way too over confident of no bionics ASMs +++ chaplain.

firstly the ASMs cost more, secondly they all had sergants and powerswords, thirdly one squad got broken by the focus fire of 24 ASMs + 3 sergs while the other was broken from Ivan while you only had 1 guardian squad to reinforce the 2 shee squads. Also if you look at that critical engagement you will see how hard it actually was to kill your shees and they once you realized that the non broken squad was like set up RANGED stance for some reason shooting there pistols for a long duration of the game, you started to run your shees out and got back a lot of shees far faster than shees.

You field 1 small guardian squad + 2 shee squads upgraded. He throws in 3 ASM squads no upgrades but with powersword sergants + chaplain.

Ivan breaks squads, its nothing new and you should have known about it. Shees ahve big squads which just makes them more vulnerable.

You suffered from a REALLY bad pathing bug that made only half your shees attack and only after the first squad of shese broke from focus fire did the other squad try to stop shooting and go CC but even then, less than half the squad responded and you had a bunch of shees in the back just shooting there pistol which we all know does about zero dmg.

If you had gotten entangle in tier 1 it would have meant much less losses for you and less reinforcing and in tier 2 it would mean that you can completely obliterate squads and you would have had 3 squads left. He jumped out the squad just as it was about to die and if he had been entangled it would have been over for them.

You needed an FS and you should have waited for the third shee squad to arrive which would really cut down on how effective chaplain is and I know you suffered a lot that game from lag since you were complainin about it quite a bit. Otherwise I am sure you wouldn t have lost so many workers or guardians.

I am sure it was very hard to spot half your banshees not fighting if you were actually lagging but if you look back, that is reason #1 why you lost and really hadn t much to do with the ASMs being OPed since he just had much more ASMs + a hero.

Also I am curious as to why the last 4 banshee squad of 4 arrived and were ALSO on ranged stance cause they were just standing in the field with seemingly no pathing issue possible but they stopped 3 feet of the ASMs to shoot. Seemed very odd.

I hope you know banshees ranged dmg is crap.

Oh next time you decide to insult me in a replay, make sure its a good one or else people will think you set those banshees on ranged stance on purpose...

Anyways you whine way too much when your get outplayed.

[[eX]Xerxes]

@SMJ, should Ivan provide 16x healing aura within a radius of 10? If so, why (for the purposes of balance) is this necessary?

And if you haven't realized it by now, arguing with Zappa will get you exactly nowhere.

[SpaceMarineJoe]

Well I have never once said I am not opposed to ivan having 16x healing. I am merely sayin that the replay didn t show how good chaplain is as much as he was just setting shees on ranged stance.

You are rite though, I will stop argueing with him I guess.

[Slow_Runner]

16x healing needs to go. Feel free to argue Chappy's other merits, but 16x is just nuts. That thing heals 80 hp in 5 seconds. 160 in 10, 320 in 20 and in half a minute, it will have healed your units 480 hp, each (multiply 480 with, say, 15 and you have a meager sum of 7200 hp healed in half a minute). That effectively means that it's nigh impossible to kill dancing SM in melee (unless you want to do over 550 damage in 10 secs to a dancing tac (bionics tac hp + the healing in 10 sec)). You see, the main point of healing is to return combat effectiveness once out of battle. Otherwise they would have given Chappy a dmg reduction aura, like the Kustum Force Field you find on a Big Mek. 16x healing isn't about getting combat effectiveness back once out of combat, it's effectively making sure that your units don't even get damaged unless under heavy ranged fire. Combine 16x with any form of cover (and god forbid anyone dropping smoke launchers on a SM army in heavy cover, gg damage) and you're seriously not gonna do any damage with CC while getting a decent amount back from the ASM/dancing tacs (provided that squads get to CC, Chappy had the Demoralizing shout, remember ).

Fixing the healing auras is a long standing issue and it should have been fixed waay back in DoW on apoths, but instead we got a new bugged 16x healing with the chappy. Yeay!

Either fix that, or start giving Doks 16x auras (or for laughs, replace the Kustom Force Field on BM with Chappy healing auras ) and see how SM likes it.

For closing, does anyone think that 16x is justified?

[Energizer Bunny]

No, I think 16x is a little unfair. However, if it goes I would like to see him made attachable (IMO that's why he hasn't been thus far).

I really, really hope he doesn't get booted to tier 3, but the morale repairing idea is interesting though. Strangely, until WA came out, that's what I thought he was going to do, rather than be a healer. The problem is that WA forgot about morale, but I guess that's a seperate issue.

[Fixer]

16x healing Aura at 10 Isn't insanely overpowered. In order for a unit to benefit from this aura it has to be standing right next to him, in which case he's in close range for melee. Get that chaplain running and watch the ASMs crumble without their support.

What I would say is that he comes out a little early. I've said before that I'd like to have the librarian in the Headquarters and the Chaplain in the Sacred Artifact from both a gameplay and background perspective.

You'd think the Chaplain would be dealing with the holy relics and not the Psyker.

[peturabo]

What I would say is that he comes out a little early. I've said before that I'd like to have the librarian in the Headquarters and the Chaplain in the Sacred Artifact from both a gameplay and background perspective.

Yes sounds like a good idea.
Its about time Relic fixed the apothecary 16x heal bug imho.

As for the chaplain, tone his heal aura down a bit, make him attachable and put him in the SA then its fine imho. MOst of the top rine players just get Ivan+ SM mass....no need for the sacred artifact or a vehicle pit.

Pet

[fuggles]

why Ivan anyone?

[peturabo]

Ask Xerxes

[Zappa]

16x healing Aura at 10 Isn't insanely overpowered. In order for a unit to benefit from this aura it has to be standing right next to him, in which case he's in close range for melee. Get that chaplain running and watch the ASMs crumble without their support.

What I would say is that he comes out a little early. I've said before that I'd like to have the librarian in the Headquarters and the Chaplain in the Sacred Artifact from both a gameplay and background perspective.

You'd think the Chaplain would be dealing with the holy relics and not the Psyker.

Why would the chaplain bother to run? He's standing F2 in your base with his überplasma, healing enemy asm while they tear down your entire eco/base.

If his healing is gonna stay as powerful as it is now he's gotta move up tiers.

[Fixer]

Because COW Banshees, Beserkers, Nobs and ranged units can easilly focus on him and do something generally known as 'kicking his ass'

You play Eldar. Get some CoW banshees, Throw guide onto them, charge the chaplain and use mindwar on him as well. See the if marine player stands the chaplain still in combat for the 6 seconds it would take to kill him.

[[eX]Xerxes]

why Ivan anyone?

http://dow.sanctuary-network.com/ind...opic=11827&hl=

That should explain it... if not let me know. It's a WA 1.4 game so don't expect the downloading to work. All the tactics I used to use in 1.4 as SM are imba now

[Slow_Runner]

So Fixer you're stating that in your opinion 16x healing (even if only in 10 radius) is ok. I personally disagree heavily with that, but I do like your suggestion to swap him with the Librarian. Librarian without WotE won't swing the tide as massively as the Chaplain and would give SM a good reason to put up the SA.

One thing that really bugs me about Chaplain's 16x is that it affects commanders. You get a FC down to, say, 400 hp. It runs to the Chaplain and voila, in a minute he's fully healed. Same for librarian and Ivan himself. Those units can tank a huge amount of damage and to have it all practically negated by one unit.. seems a bit unfair to me personally.

I wonder if Chappy heals allied forces btw...

[Energizer Bunny]

I'm pretty sure he doesn't.

It would be rather cool if allies were able to benefit from each other's abilities though. It would probably encourage more coordinated attacks between allies (mob bonus on 3 full ork armies.... shudder..... WOTE on 3 lots of Termies..... bigger shudder).

[Fixer]

I definitely think that healing is needed. In some cases It's all that holds back the tide of melee units from the marine lines. Without him ASM would just fold under Nobz/Beserkers/Banshees and 90/10 heavy bolter marines are too expensive to build on their own. As it stands ASM are basically match these melee units for cost with the Chaplain supporting with only the power sword and numbers from tier1-2 progression tipping the balance in their favour.

The balance shifts back again if opponents use their own heros with bonus auras. Chaos Lord with Rune of Chaos, Farseer with Fortune, Big mek with Kustom shield. These can all make a difference and they're never seen.

4x blanket healing would be way to low to make a difference, I think x8 is the bare minimum.

He is counterable as well, without a meatshield unit to hide behind it's not a difficult task to get Trukks shooting him from afar, or melee units hitting and pounding him into the soft earth. If you get him to run, he's not healing the troops nearby and you can take them apart as well.

and nope, he only heals your own army

[psychodil]

Its funny how people still believe ASm should be able to match dedicated tier 2 melee infantry in CC.

[SpaceMarineJoe]

Are you on the same subject of the chaplain or are you talkin about ASMs?

Anyways the chaplains 16x HAS to go but putting him in the sacred artefact spells doom for SM cause rite now its tier 2.5 until ASMs reach tier 2 strength and zerks will be out long before that and not to mention that ASMs without the PS(and this HAS to be nerfed), the lack of a chaplain with any kind of healing means no matter how mobile ASMs are they are gonna get steam rolled easily for cost by zerks and nobz and CoW shees who already beat us even WITH healing and PS...

[santiago4ever]

Fixer have you seen what happens when your CC units focuses on the Ivan?

"Wow... nice plasma mass... ah and you have frags as well you say? So I can effectively not reach him to CC him to death and your plasma mass is killing me in 3 seconds... If I try to go for your plasma mass instead you will dance it and Ivan will heal them..."

Oh and yeah if you go for the mixed army that really would be needed to deal any damage to dancing tacs? Say hello to focus fire on the CC units and they are dead in 2 seconds. yaaaay.

[GRIM Ripper]

exactly... there is no reason ASM should be a primary melee unit like they are now, PLUS only with the added benefit of superior harrass. there is a reason SM now have 5 heavy weapons slots and overall vastly improved, more damaging, non specialized weapons... bc they are supposed to be strong in ranged... which they certainly are (nothing can break a barrier of critical mass heavy bolters, and plasma is no slouch either)! all i need to do is point to ONE squad of upgraded HBs doing around 350dps (regardless of the cost... bc SM, unlike most other races, simply upgrade their old troops to stay competitive instead of having to spend req on completely new units... thus the "expensive" heavy weapons dont end up being such a big deal). but wait... SM then ALSO has the ASM which, when upgraded, can even compete with berzerkers, banshees and nobz... WITHOUT HEALING (mind you this all does have something to do with chap healing). but at least its not so much that they can actually kill those other dedicated melee units... though its even wrong that they can compete with them (ASM should not get improved melee from target finders).

once the chaplain comes into play its just disgusting. he essentially gives everyone within range a -16dps damage reduction (and heroes even more... -32dps!). that means an upgraded nob in melee will be doing, on average, a piss poor 11 dps. even vs ranged fire... the only way to take ANYTHING down is if youre lucky enough to have your units focus fire on a single unit.

there is absolutely no reason for that level of healing... ESPECIALLY when SM already have apothecaries and a dirt cheap, 65% single bionics upgrade. they are certainly durable enough without the chaplain.

oh and i love this... 4x healing will supposedly make no difference, but a big mek custom forcefield (10% ranged only damage reduction) will? how can you even compare that to chap healing?? oh, and dont forget the balance is tipped waaaaay back once SM use their other heros abilities... namely librarian with WOTE to make them even more indestructable, and the force commanders own 10% damage aura; funny... conveniently you left those things out.

[SpaceMarineJoe]

Grim, saying marines don t cost anything cause they from tier 1 is stupid. You are gonna be constantly losing marines so its the same as any other race phasing out except for SM its easy to face total annihilation.

Reason other races don t scale like SM? Zappa was trying to make an arguement that its too cheap that SM just scales but then he sends us a replay of just why they should while others shouldn t. He played a 4 player map, completely outnumbered, out costed 2 DR squads + an FS and bought flamers, I think he had 3 squads of marines and brought scouts + FC.

What happened? 2 dread reapers and about 15 marines dead with 2 flamers lost +++ his force commander got pwned...

Saying heavy weapons don t cost alot cause you get marines in tier 1 is assuming that you never lose any marines and they you do not completely lose map control which the SM player did in this case, he lost about twice what the guy actually spent on reapers + he lost 75% of the map and was losing by control area... how does that make HBs cheap again?

[Hirmetrium]

i think the easiest way to fix it is to make it not stack. then, he will still heal units closer to him more BUT for less. also, it wont stack with apothicarys healing. i ALSO suggest nerfing apoc healing too, since they have the chaplin to heal them lots now.

[SpaceMarineJoe]

I think apoth should be either 8x healing to make it significant. They are already paper thin fragile with only 200 HP so halving the healing is good. Make all healing non stackable and just give 4x healing to chap + 8x in 10 radius.

All I really need of the chap is for him to keep my probes alive and 4x does that quite well

[Hirmetrium]

attually, hes a good LP soloing commander. while your army is off fighting, he can take down a few LP's on his own with no damage(it is healed after their dead). then, after the battle, move him into your men.

but i like your idea here joe. nerfing the healing slightly is a good step IMO, and your idea seems much better than mine(apoc HP etc)

[Zappa]

The sacred artifact costs like 125/50, thats like not even two hb marines for building it and unlike for example eldar space marines don't need to use 50% of their builders to upgrade to tier 2. ASM arent supposed to be a cc specialist in tier 2, they are a rapid response jump unit with anti-vehicle/building capabilities. They are also good at tying up reapers/shoota boys/obliterators and have good damage on the move. But that's not what we are discussing here, we are discussing the chaplain and the 16 hp healing is largely agreed upon (apart from fixer) as being too powerful and needs to be toned down. Which is great, because that is what I wanted to discuss. Try to keep focused on the chaplain here people.

[SpaceMarineJoe]

Zappa, for someone who totes around his ladder score you have shown us you possess very little understanding(or you are just very biased/one sided) in terms of how you post. SM workers cost 30 more req each and cannot teleport and also you don t need to build an armoury either to hit tier 2.

Saying that the building ONLY costs 125/50 is the dumbest thing I have heard come out of you yet... thats not a lot at all considering 90% of the times when I hit tier 2 I have about never over 100 req floating from buying everything... ya money grows on trees rite?

You are basically saying that its fine to have chap be 385/100 in cost if you want vehcles too.

[psychodil]

You have to make choices with your req. Its the same for every race Joe.

Sacred artifact is a lot cheaper than it was in DOW.

[GRIM Ripper]

Grim, saying marines don t cost anything cause they from tier 1 is stupid. You are gonna be constantly losing marines so its the same as any other race phasing out except for SM its easy to face total annihilation.

i didnt say that. i said SM dont spend anything more with heavy weapons than a different race spends on T1 + T2 troops. instead, for space marines they buy T1 troops and then T2 weapons. other races buy T1 troops, and then T2 troops; it ends up being the same cost. any race will constantly lose troops.... and thats still money down the drain once those T1 troops are "phased out" and killed, just like its money down the drain when marines are killed. there is practically no difference.

but thats beside the point... there is just no reason for SM to have SO many healing abilities of that magnititude. 5 x16 heal??? whats the reason? the chaplain already has an EXCELLENT ability anyway, and they already have monster apothecaries... besides, every other race gets by with only x4 heal (though some could use it much more than SM need it), some even with less (chaos), and others with crap static x4 heal (eldar) that they have to spend a lot of cash on.

i would definately support an 8x heal for chap and apoths... in fact i think mad doks and eldar auras should also heal at 8x...

or how about if healing speed depended on if you were in combat or not (like the cultist reinforce modifier)... in combat you get a 4x heal. out of combat you get a 8x or 16x heal.

[Chris]

The reason for having 5X16 healing is that it's BROKEN. No one is trying to justify it.