Why are Guardsmen and there guns soo strong?

[danayel]

Relic should really have called every single weapon a different name to stop all the arguments

They kept the same names for fluff purposes, because seriously who would play a WH40k game if there wasn't anything from WH40k in it?? But had to balance the weapons in regards to the army as a whole, and in relation to other armies.

If you have a look the same weapons within the same army, some of them even have different stats. Brightlances on the wraithlord vs the LP's for example within eldar. Because it would be too imbalanced otherwise. (though arguably still is on the WL)

IG plasma wasn't most likely wasn't made more powerful because of an oversight, or some personal insult to Marine players, but because they lack any other infantry weapons able to damage heavier armour and vehicles.

Grenade launchers become relatively useless after tier 1 as most higher tier units are reistant to their knockback.

At present IG has 1 and only one infantry choice for tier 1 and 2 and a little bit into 3 when we have to research for our HUGE 2 other choices. (we do have commander choices but that's not entire units and no IG commander is a gamebreaker alone)

Most armies have a more options than that in tier 1 and only get more.

We also have the massive range of unit equipment options of ... 2 special weapons... GL and Plasma...

On top of that IG squads are still 2 cap minimum, which means they will have in theory the same number or less (in eldars case with an avatar) squads, and potentially even same or less individual troops at each tier.

If
a) IG plasma was nerfed to marine levels: We would have no feasible way of dealing with vehicles or heavy infantry with our infantry. Guards would become redundant the moment any tier 2 infantry or a vehicle popped out.
b) If the move penalty is in fact a bug and will be removed. IG will find it very difficult to deal with Assault troops, as we then have no way of fighting them in cc, and we can't out dance them because we do no damage.
c) IG Guards were nerfed to their true FLuff standing and kept at the same popcap it would take your entire IG infantry cap to take out one Tac squad of marines. It's just not feasible unless we all play on supercomputers.

(not saying they aren't too good right now and need a slight nerf, but you can't remove them totally)

If in the new expack, IG had a melee unit (roughriders anyone) and Heavy weapons squads, (mm mortars, lascannons, MLaunchers and HBolters) then I would see no risk at all in adding a move penalty and reducing plasma damage.

I know it makes no sense if you follow the fluff. But the fluff simply doesn't apply to a game where you need to balance armies.

Fluff wise one Marine is the equal of 10 Guards at least, but can you imagine the lag if IG had a 200 pop cap and true IG strength units?

Ignore the fluff, and try to balance them without it. Try to balance them as 'anti armour weapon' and 'anti heavy inf weapon' instead of as 'plasma gun' and 'plasma gun' and cry cause the stats don't match exactly.

[Stim]

We are doomed...

[ImmortalChaos]

lawlz

[Ragnarok31]

Good post, danayel.

According to fluff, SM are IMBA inherently... so how's that for balancing with fluff?

[The_Guardman]

According to fluff, a single SM company (that's it, 100 men and 20 or so tanks) is able to conquer an hostile planet trought surgical strike in key locations. This mena that they can fight like a possible 15,000,000 rebels treat... It's 150,000/1 ratio. Now, the company will fight on key location, at right time whit right weapons (SM are also master strategist and tactic) so we can decrese the factor 1,000... this left us still whit 150 rebels for each marine...

If I remember well, the recent Desert Storm2 were the -supposedly- better organized and equipped USA troops had to face like a 10/1 ratio, whit a lot of artillery and air support, all to get just a minimal control on a small portion of the planet.

[littlegaz84]

If I remember well, the recent Desert Storm2 were the -supposedly- better organized and equipped USA troops had to face like a 10/1 ratio, whit a lot of artillery and air support, all to get just a minimal control on a small portion of the planet.

True but then Allied troops aren't walking tanks equipped with rapid fire mini rocket launchers :P A company of spacemarines would be vastly better equipped and organised compared to their enemy (much more so than Allied forces compared to Iraqis). After all an AK round will still kill an Allied soldier whereas a standard issue lasgun would barely scratch the paint on a spacemarine's armour.

Also much like the Allied forces in Iraq, a company of spacemarines would direct their attacks at negating their opponents' numerical superiority (e.g. by going for command facilities and only fighting portions of the enemy at a time). It is highly unlikley they'd face all or even a large proportion of the enemy troops at any one time. And if they did they'd probably take advantage of the high concentration of enemy forces by dropping an orbital bombardment on them or something.

[enfant]

wots with all the IG bashing? they have really shitty CC that is why their ranged damage compensates for that. "whine whine my space marines get owned because of IG nades whine whine.." try CCing a squad of guards with a marines squad. if the IG wins, i'll gladly chop off my head and let you sit on it. they were never meant for CC and if their ranged dmg gets nerfed, what do u get? a cannon fodder race. who the hell would want to play as cannon fodder? it renders the race redundant and spoils the whole game. ffs just find a way around their tactics, whine less and play more. with all the rush tactics and imba exploits, it just makes the game more challenging to beat, so stop saying imba this imba that unless it's waay out of hand. a great way to counter all the imba whining would be to release a patch every month that changes all the stats of everything so every race gets an opportunity to be imba, just to shut whiney people up

[SpaceMarineJoe]

Maybe people should get a ladder score with SM before they start talkin about commi rush... it knocks you back a lot.

Lets see, I lose with SM to 1300+ IG and then I beat a 1500+ IG TWICE WITH IG. HMM, no imbalance there...

[ImmortalChaos]

wots with all the IG bashing? they have really shitty CC that is why their ranged damage compensates for that. "whine whine my space marines get owned because of IG nades whine whine.." try CCing a squad of guards with a marines squad. if the IG wins, i'll gladly chop off my head and let you sit on it. they were never meant for CC and if their ranged dmg gets nerfed, what do u get? a cannon fodder race. who the hell would want to play as cannon fodder? it renders the race redundant and spoils the whole game. ffs just find a way around their tactics, whine less and play more. with all the rush tactics and imba exploits, it just makes the game more challenging to beat, so stop saying imba this imba that unless it's waay out of hand. a great way to counter all the imba whining would be to release a patch every month that changes all the stats of everything so every race gets an opportunity to be imba, just to shut whiney people up

Guardsmen beat CSM in equil numbers CC.

[littlegaz84]

whine whine my space marines get owned because of IG nades whine whine.." try CCing a squad of guards with a marines squad.

Between the nades bouncing your troops on their asses and the IG player dancing you'll be very hard pressed to catch up with them let alone do any appreciable damage. IG dominate T1 except vs eldar.

if their ranged dmg gets nerfed, what do u get? a cannon fodder race.

Hopefully thats not going to happen. Ideally fix would be to address the early availability of commies or GL, or better still to fix bugged guardsmen armour. Each of these factors individually is not an issue but together commies (unbreakable morale + healing) + GL (range + disruption) + bugged armour (damage reduction) = IMBA

[SpaceMarineJoe]

Ya enfant obviously hasn t played against IG much with SM or else he would cry imbalance harder than the rest of us My IG is noob but I can own most SM players with it on most maps.

[enfant]

there is no unit in the IG that heals. if u keep chasing an IG squad, they can't use the GL. u need to be stationary to use the gl.. i think. haven't seen any running IG squads firing off their GLs yet.

[littlegaz84]

there is no unit in the IG that heals

Was certain that commies healed, does anyone know if this was changed in recent patches?

if u keep chasing an IG squad, they can't use the GL

This doesn't change the fact that nades make it very difficult to close the distance in the first place (i.e. close enough to force IG to dance) without jump troops. Even then unless you can outsquad your opponent IG will simply dance and hammer pursuers with other squads. Even without GL, commies, CS and guards (in decent numbers) all have good ranged damage. On top of this IG receive no accuracy penalties while firing on the move.

[Ragnarok31]

Lol, usually its IG that does the chasing.

[littlegaz84]

Hey I'm trying to be optimistic here :P Although you're right, especially as SM I either have to try engage IG pre-GL or straight firefights in open until T2 (e.g. harass, fight under LP cover, etc)

[Slow_Runner]

From guard_commissar_your_aim_will_be_true.lua:

GameData["area_effect"]["weapon_damage"]["modifiers"]["modifier_02"]["modifier"] = Reference([[modifiers\health_regeneration_modifier.lua]])
GameData["area_effect"]["weapon_damage"]["modifiers"]["modifier_02"]["modifier"]["application_type"] = Reference([[type_modifierapplicationtype\tp_mod_apply_to_squad.lua]])
GameData["area_effect"]["weapon_damage"]["modifiers"]["modifier_02"]["modifier"]["exclusive"] = true
GameData["area_effect"]["weapon_damage"]["modifiers"]["modifier_02"]["modifier"]["usage_type"] = Reference([[type_modifierusagetype\tp_mod_usage_addition.lua]])
GameData["area_effect"]["weapon_damage"]["modifiers"]["modifier_02"]["modifier"]["value"] = 2.50000

Ie. commissars make the squad they are in heal 2.5 times faster than usual.

I think we've reached the point in the thread where it starts heading into "zomg IG is imba". Hence the lock.