Pwned by chuck norris.
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Pwned by chuck norris.
Yes, most of which have already been taken apart by various people in this thread and now again by Chuck (thanks, saves me typing :P). I chose to address more recent points raised in #33 and echoed by ShadowWatch.Originally Posted by CrossOnion
Adding to what Chuck has said:
IG dominates T1 against all races except eldar. T2 is more equal although SM is still dicey until they get bionics, chappy and hellfires. T3 I'd agree is IG's weakest, at least in the area of AV seeing as they can't get LR till T4. IG T4 on the other hand arguably rivals that of SM (e.g.kasrs are one of the few things aside from FP spam that can deal with AT spam).
Commie rush isn't really an all or nothing strategy (e.g. like no barracks scout rush). Most IG players will still build those commie attached squads (with the exception of some like Stefan who can manage quite well without them and tech faster instead) anyway, with the only difference being they'll engage the enemy after getting GL.
Even if the rush fails, theres still a good chance of recovery thanks to IG econ and 20 req reinforce cost (providing player didn't allow squads to be wiped out or get all the commies killed). Indeed the damage inflicted on the other side alone (e.g. troops, LPs, banners, etc) should be enough to ensure that IG remains ahead.
^^exactly, it's not a huge investment as he made it out to be to commie rush, and if they fail they can go to T2 quite nicely. And in the "failed rush" they will most definitly inflict more damage then they cost to the opponent.
Chaos can PS raptors or CL PP if they want...they are better off than SM vs it. But the cultist Grenade thing is laughable... they would be torn apart by the commies.
Eldar can hold against it, but then what can Eldar not hold against?
Ork's building gun prevent rushes from most races anyways.
IG can get commies, or bunker...not too hard
Sorry I would go in-depth but I don't know as much about Ork and Eldar as I do Chaos and SM...but I think you all get the picture without my help anyways.
The ork building guns DO NOT save you from commie rush, they save you form base anahilation. The IG can effectively pin the orks into their base and gain all map contol, and rape the occasional LP. Meanwhile, the IG way outtechs the ork and wins in the end. Same happens in IG mirror if one IG doesnt rush.
True, still allows Orks to survive a little longer than other races. That said, smart IG player would use GL from afar or CS to tear down the paper Ork buildings. IG seem to have best anti-building T1
Ok ork guns only reach out to like 1 or 2 SPs, so you just let the IG have the rest of the map eh?
Also 4 minutes on MoM? Thats insane, I get a commi rush down by 1:30ish on that map... you are far too slow my friend.
Also not how the original poster says a "Skilled" SM player? Meaning MORE skilled than the IG player and by a lot. I see really crap IG players floating at fairly high auto ranks. Also the best of the IG players agree that IG tier 2 is at least on par with SM tier 2 and I rather agree with them then people who complain about OB in 1v1s...
All or nothing??? 2-3 IG squads max is all you need and thats what you get NORMALLY... it changes nothing in terms of what your build is, you can either just use those three squads to cap and not reinforce them or you can attack... but you gonna get 3 squads minimum anyways... CS is a must, commies scale into tier 2 so what is it about the commi rush thats all or nothing?
A scout rush is all or nothing, GL/PP rush is all or nothing, commi rush is just a normal build...
I find it funny how the majority of people who seem extemely offended by this thread are mainly space marine players.
I agree that commie rushing hits SM hardest but I believe that is best solved with a sm tier 1 buff as opposed to an IG tier 1 nerf.
Also, SM Joe I usually get the commie rush into pople's base around 2 and half minutes. Bur that'ss just as they get there. I cant see how you get a commie rush into your opponents base in 1 min 30. It's impossible.
And you should deffinately be able to get an armoury down as chaos or SM before the commie rush stops you. If it's the very next thing you build after a barracks then you should have no problem as it will be down in less than 1 and half mins. And a couple of squads of cultists with nades and ACs with plasma and a Chaos lord will definately beat a CS and 2 commi squads.
The commie rush is way imba. It beat everyside except maybe I.G,orks and won't work against a good eldar if the player knows what they are doing. But if your against orks or I.G you just need to stop them coming out their base and gain map control and imba grenade lauchers will help aswell they kill orks quick. Tech to sents then you have won.
The only counter you can do against commie rush is heavy bolter turret, sell hq upgrade all your posts and mass tacts and thats extreme and risky tactic to do, you shouldn't have to do something extreme to stop a simple rush.
#59
I believe that 1 commie per tier would fix this. Oh, and yes it is. Ithankyou.
I find it funny how the majority of people who seem extemely offended by this thread are mainly space marine players.
Maybe because it's very annoying to have nooby IG players beat you in auto and think they are good. Of course the race that has the hardest time defending against a strat is going to be offended by someone saying its not imba when it clearly is.
I agree that commie rushing hits SM hardest but I believe that is best solved with a sm tier 1 buff as opposed to an IG tier 1 nerf.
Well SM do need a slight tier 1 buff, but IG need a T1 nerf as well...having a cheap, morale immune, health regenerating squad that scales to T2 isn't going to balanced by giving tacts a few more DPS.
Also, SM Joe I usually get the commie rush into pople's base around 2 and half minutes. Bur that'ss just as they get there. I cant see how you get a commie rush into your opponents base in 1 min 30. It's impossible.
Watch replays of top players, you'd be amazed what is possible.
And you should deffinately be able to get an armoury down as chaos or SM before the commie rush stops you. If it's the very next thing you build after a barracks then you should have no problem as it will be down in less than 1 and half mins. And a couple of squads of cultists with nades and ACs with plasma and a Chaos lord will definately beat a CS and 2 commi squads
Again I really want to see a replay of two equally skilled players, 1 SM 1 IG play and the SM win. To get this armory would definetly stop a SM player from getting "Mass Tacts" which is the strat you said can beat IG...
And even if you do get the armory up, ASM will help vs IG no doubt, but won't win it for you unless you mass a lot. Which goes back to my old point of cost effectiveness...those commies/CS are nasty in CC and will hurt the SM far more than they hurt the IG's 20 req troops.
Chaos lord will get eaten alive by a CS, not to mention the fire support from commie squads will help a lot. They cultist with plasma and grenades is a nice idea. But if you have PP+CS+nades+AC...chances are they not only have commied squads but also CS and maybe Grenades which put the cultist to shame... Plasma isn't all that effective against IG anyways, and will no doubt slow your tech which can be a death sentence.
BTW about the ork's guns. True if you have to fall back that far(most likely) you've lost map control, and your pretty much done because those ork buildings won't last long and by giving up map control to use the guns, your enemy gets yet another advantage... My point was ork have a slightly better chance of fending off initial commie rush, but by no means are going to win in the long run vs IG.
Last edited by Chuck Norris; 17th Mar 06 at 6:39 AM. Reason: Forgot to add...
I am no SM player; commie rush is imba. so, now you got an ork players fiew (i play IG aswell)
OK I'm going to go commie rush ten people in auto now and show you the results. I wont just post one replay either I'll commie rush ten times on automatch and post the replays.
If you rush FTW, do you really enjoy this game?
Of course, you're SUPPOSED to rush.
And yep, commie rush is all sorts of imba.
#65
I managed to beat stefan once or twice when we tested massive commie guard rushes on blood river... With an extremely specialized build involving 1 scout squad, 3 SM squads, an early armory for flamers on 2 SM squads, deleting the barracks and overwatching the marines... Ofcourse this build loses big time if the IG decides to actually cap his own points before rushing... If he rushes without capping his points and the SM doesn't do something like this it's over though...
IG vs SM is almost as sad to watch as Eldar vs IG. IG vs orks isn't all that fun either... Chaos can hold out decently against IG, if they reach tier 1.5 without being too far behind the IG they actually might have an upper hand.
SM vs IG boils down to a few points of IG advantage.
Scouts sucks total ass against guardsmen because of their 120 armor.
FC is near worthless since you need a SM squad around to attach him to in this matchup, you wont have both SM and FC out in time to face the rush and whichever you go for first is likely to be dead when the other comes out.
Commisar Healing + hit and run tactics = whittled down SM.
Command Squad building damage = ahahaha no econ SM.
Command Squad speed = ahahaha scouts are dead. No more capping units for yoo.
Commie rushing is ridiculously imba against SM, it's merely imba against orks and chaos and eldar can handle it.
Main combat unit from HQ against the race that is slowest at getting a unit able to fight them = gg no re ktnxbye.
Non mihi,
non tibi,
sed nobis.
And what if you dont ahve the required skill to demonstrate the imba?OK I'm going to go commie rush ten people in auto now and show you the results. I wont just post one replay either I'll commie rush ten times on automatch and post the replays.
If you do this, please, post the replays so we can see if you are worth your salt.
http://forums.relicnews.com/showthread.php?t=87555
There is replays of commi rushes. Notice last game, rush came at 1:10 and in ALL these games the SM was always in the last position that was scouted.
By the time IG had 2 full squads + commi + CS in my base I could only build one tac squad. Nice eh?
Please if you wanna say how easy it is to counter it we can set up some games where you use your uber SM that is better than all the other SM players. No accuracy loss on the move meant my marines couldn t get away and with CS + priest the CS runs faster and will make sure my marines will never be able to escape.
Impossible... so that must make me like UBER with IG and my friend oh_rly is super UBAR I guess... Even though IG is my second worst race only after the eldar(in terms of my micro).
What are you talking about? I thought commie rushing required no skill whatsoever?And what if you dont ahve the required skill to demonstrate the imba?
It requires minimal skill, now go watch the replays and try to prove your point. Skill level differences can be huge in this game. Most times when IG complains about imbalance its 80% of the times because they are just being outplayed and 20% of the times cause its eldar.
#70
Obviously it requires SOME knowledge of the game and how the rush works and what your opponent can do in the same timeframe. I have played several people at WA when I started playing ladder who couldn't commie rush their way out of a wet paper bag but that was because they'd simply coppied the build order but didn't understand how to use the units properly.
Chriss is that IG hater he wanted them to nerf everything about igs
#71
commierushing takes no effort at all against someone your own skill level. But if you really suck it's harder to pull off. It's kinda like guardianteching in DoW though, the higher the level of the eldar player the more the opponent needs to outplay him to stand a chance.
commierush pretty much requires that you atleast move any squad that gets CCed so that they'll keep firing at full accuracy instead of getting tied up in CC. Heck I have to struggle like hell against BAD commierushes from IG players in the 1500ish range... Including a certain eldar player who went IG at SEC and managed to cheese his way to a 3rd place. He almost beat me with his IG while making pretty much all the mistakes he could do, meanwhile he can't beat me with his eldar, ever...
#72
I detect bitterness Santi. ^^
At the moment my win ratio against IG is terrible with my orks... IG players in the 1300-1400 bracket win against me about 50% of the time with commie rushes and I havn't won against a single commie rush from a player over 1500. I have beaten a single 1500+ IG player ONCE and a 1600+ IG player ONCE but that was because they did completely the wrong build against me and even then it was a hard fight into late tier 2. I am almost positive if they had just commie rushed I would have lost those games.
#73
The Commisar/Guard/CS rush is imbalenced in both a time perspective and a cost perspective. Commisar guardsmen will destroy marines for cost (despite some extra initial investment with commisars) and will be in larger numbers sooner.
The rush is "counterable" with some specific builds for some races on some maps (but not all). In this situation, the word counterable means that it puts you on even ground with the IG player (but does net you an advantage). However, every other build will put you at a significant disadvantage. As a result, it is virtually a no brainer to go for a commisar rush build becuase at the very worst you'll be on even ground, and at the very best you will have a huge advantage.
Its a myth that IG is weak beyond rushing. Their T1 teching is great and their T2 is extremely strong (overpowered even) because of guardsmen armor and basilisk in particular. Their T1 being so powerful makes their T2 all the more powerful.
#74
Yes... regarding the ability of the player to exploit the IMBA... just because a player needs to have some skill does not make the tactic less than IMBA. A build or tactic is IMBA when the cost and skill to counter it greatly exceed what a normal player can accomplish.
Just as an example... I have about 2000 games on me, mostly IG and Chaos, and when I decided to learn the commie rush a while ago, I got soundly whipped by it 10 for 10 times. When I tried to emulate it vs. another player... it took about 2 tries to get it right, and with that I am now uber IG tier 1 when I feel like it. Someone with minimal understanding of danceing and capping-strats will pick this up in no time and be just as good as me (with all my pre-history). SMJ's friend Technique is a perfect example - hes got less than a quarter of the number of games than I do and can whoop my ass with commie rushes all day long.
1v1? I find that getting a bassy (in 3v3+ games) out in tier 2 is fun, but easily countered if the enemy has chaos or IG.... and can be a net liability if not handled properly.Its a myth that IG is weak beyond rushing. Their T1 teching is great and their T2 is extremely strong (overpowered even) because of guardsmen armor and basilisk in particular. Their T1 being so powerful makes their T2 all the more powerful.
Ra Owa : AAHHHH!!!! ITS A ROCK!
Troubleshooter : Wha... oh... Pfffttt... Prove it. :}
Ra Owa : ... [sputtering] ... o.O ... Its SCIENCE!
Commie rush isn't an instant win, and if they are noobs(not too uncommon) who don't know how to play, just a build order, than SM can dance them somewhat and maybe even lead them into a few traps...but if they know what they are doing Commie rushing can take you very far in auto and it requires much less skill to get in the 1500's as IG than it does to with SM.
I think we are all in agreement except Gabriel... I really want to see those replays.
If you want to see IG being the pwnage, watch anything stephan does. He uses the brokenness of IG to the max. But at least he also wants to nerf IG to hell with a big nerf stick.
Nothing against Stephan btw.
#77
Stefan's sort of famous for not using IG brokenness. Never seen him commie rush in any replay I've watched.
Let's Play Europa Universalis 3: Divine Wind
Let's Play Master of Magic: Abandoned
In the beginning there was nothing. Then Steam crashed.
#78
He does 'abuse' every now and again but he only does it so he can post the replays to show the brokeness. Every now and again there is a lull in the community, people over at Sanc were saying how maybe IG isn't so imbalance, tier 2 is pretty weak etc. etc. so he posted a set of replays which just reminded everyone of the bullshit IG have available to them.
There's actually a timeline of Stefan abuse and it goes something like...
The Beginning - Chooses IG because as a Canadian he's naturally drawn to blandness
The Early Days - pwns his way up the ladder when the various IG issues are as yet unknown.
The Reckoning - Discovers the commical 9 dps guardsmen bayonets have to buildings in the now infamous game vs Fear. After this the cult of IG hatred begins to grow with Stefan as a target as well.
The Road to Redemption - Okay this has to be the most brilliant and successful PR campaign in the history of DoW. Stefan deletes his account and reclimbs the ladder without the use of Commisars. Thus he creates for himself the image of 'the Good IG', and cements his image as a non-abuser.
The Great Balancing (the current phase) - Stefan realizes that the issues of IG extend far beyond commisars and begins to use IG to it's full potential not only to explore various balance issues but to demonstrate to everyone that IG is in fact not okay by any stretch of the imagination. He stays largerly seculded in his icy lair concocting various balance schemes only emerging to occasionally pwn people on the forums and to show people that with 1.41 IG what should be going through your head when playing as them or playing against them is 'Why Bother?'
So to conclude this thread ... and save relic the time of reading through it all ... we can all agree that commie rushing is perfectly fine and in no way IMBA.
Sorted
#81
I randomed SM yesterday on Quest's Triumph against someone who I didn't know the race of... Got commierushed, it's fun with no place to run to, having better econ but no way in hell of getting enough troops out to counter full CS + 3x guardsmen squads with commies.
Ignore Gabriels rantings, problem solved(still waiting for those 10 replays).
I made 9 replays now. Just one more to go
#84
No, we can conclude stefan, the top ig player and verymuchso > you in terms of understanding the game, and knowledge of the rushes limitations at the moment is correct. Relic need only to read his post. Thread closed, end of story.
You Lose, Good day Sir!
Not really because I was trolling all along. I know the commie rush is IMBA, I was just winding everyone up. BWAAHAHAHHAHAHHAHAHHAHAAAA
Or you are simply using that excuse because you have just been on the recieving end of the commie rush and realise it is imba and all your arguement was all for nothing.
Or of course you WERE trolling.
I'll go for Pokey's first reasoning, since no troll ever admitted that they were trolls. Ever.
I am NOT crossOnion
Originally From MooFreakyJust because a n00b can't pick up the army and use it does not make it weak!!
I m a troll, I got like 3000 posts lol! Take that
These hands never stop :comp:
Yep... He probably JUST found out it was imba and trying to cover his tracks, kind of sad.
hmmm, I guess you'll never know for certain! Was I trolling or have I just been instantly enlightened into IG IMBA in tier 1?
In whichever case, we will probably never take any of your post seriously again. Ever.
I ask for mods to lock this thread.
Oh I'm SURE that question will haunt us all until the end of our days...
Gabriel considering you even WASTED your time to argue your point so strongly over numerous amount of posts it is quite blatanltly obvious that either:
[A] You have far more time on your hands even more so than myself.
[B] you more than obviously found out the sheer imbalance of IG tier 1
OR both simply. Take also into consideration over a multiple amount of days in how strongly you argued for your point and then suddenly a few pros come in and blow it all down the drain and then you come up with an excuse for been proven wrong.
*sigh* Lock.
#96
Foresight slow ^_^
Those who walk through the shadows, seek not the light.
If you disagree with a moderational decision, follow this.
The most pointless thread I ever read.
#98
From a retrospective point of view, I agree.
Gabriel, I'm watching you. This is your chance to stop trolling.
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