Eldar Vehicle roles

[Chuck Norris]

Most people consider Eldar Vehicles to be either OPed or UPed...so this thread is to discuss what you think Eldar vehicle roles SHOULD be. IMO I think it should be:

Vypers

Glass Canons that are fast. Should be strong vs infantry but when upgraded vs vehicle. Armor gets a little better with upgrades, but is still no heavy hit taker and is easily taken down by dedicated AV

Wraithlords

Good Melee unit, but not meant to be a whole army by themselves. Lower HP than other walkers, but faster and has canon on shoulder(needs nerfing), so it's good vs most targets even when they are running.

Falcons

Fast general purpose tank. Should just be standard run of the line, nothing spectacular but does it job well for cost. Good vs infantry, when upgraded good vs vehicle

Fire Prisms

SUPPORT TANK, not uber counter everything tank. Good splash damage and decent health, but weak vs melee and vehicles.


That's what I think anyways, so what do you all think it should be?

[Emperial_Wrath]

I think you sum it all up well
But what the hell do you mean the Wraithlord shoulder cannon needs nerfing? its max damage is 9!!!!! Thats as weak as a IG lasgun

[CrossOrion]

... No.

It does 21-30 DPS to five classes of infantry (Inf Hv Medium, Hv Low, Medium, Low and High) and 7 DPS to Infantry Heavy High.

Look at this
http://forums.relicnews.com/showthread.php?t=76852
Post before you ever comment on how much damage something does, ever, again.

And for the record, I think he meant the Brightlance that needs nerfing. Which seems to take out most Ork buildings in less then 5 shots and can take out other buildings with less then 10.

[Chuck Norris]

I meant the Brightlance mainly, I haven't seen as big of a problem with the normal one. Wraithlords are not suppose to be used for their range, yet right now that is one of there major advantages.

[CrossOrion]

Well, considering they die very very fast if they enter a shootout with sentinals or engage in CC with other walkers...

What do you propose?

[BeserkWraithlor]

Vypers-Very fast, and cheap and can jump to many places. Low Health, but Extremly effective vs. infantry. Vyper Rockets destroy vehicles with ease, but vypers need support from other units to stay alive.

Falcon-Moderate damage to infantry and vehicles. More costly and armored than Vypers. Not effective without Starcannon upgrade, but great for transport.

Wraithlord-Powerful melee, but die very fast to Anti-armor units. Brightlance very effective vs. vehicles, but ineffective vs. infantry and need help from other units.

Fire Prisim-Very weak compared to other Tanks. Great against Vehicles and moderate disruption to infantry. A very slow cooldown to fire Cannon means these need lots of support from other units. Increadibly weak vs. anti-armor units.

[Ophion]

Maybe make the prism faster, but lower hp, to encourage more raiding/mutual support rather than them just ebing the main element of the army.

Limiting them to 2 only would be good, same for ATs!

[Compeador]

Not a balance thread Ophion.

And you got the Falcon ugrade roles switched around Chuck. And the Starcannon on their shoulder doesn't need a nerf, just the (expensive) brightlance.

[ArTizan]

Make the prisms like they act in DoWPro Long setup time, long time between shots and lower armour - A complete support tank for infantry, it works well

I usually find Sentinals are not much of a problem for BL'ed WL

[BeserkWraithlor]

Fire Prisims are basicly a Falcon with a gay pink crystal on top of it, so prisim SHOULD have the same, OR lower health the falcon. Make Prisim cannon rather slow.

Vypers are faster,and more effective at killing infantry than any other eldar vehicle. Vyper rockets are very effective vs. vehicles.

[eventhorizon]

gay is not a derogatory word.

i agree that the fire prism shouldnt be much stronger than the falcon, but it should have considerably better firepower than the falcon. it may work to leave it as it is now, but to have a pop cap limit.

the vyper- pretty much agreeing with what the topic starter says on that. it just needs to see use really. resource cost lower?

[hybris]

Chuck Norris: SHOULD be according to TT or according to DoW?
Because your text neither describe DoW nor TT.

If you mean to describe your own personal opinion about Eldar Vehicles, then please say so, but don't state that you mean to describe them as they SHOULD be.
Otherwise describe what template you are using as reference for your arguments.

The worst example is Wraithlord, which actually is meant to have way MORE hitpoints/armour than Space Marine Dreadnoughts, according to both the fluff litterature about the WH40k universe and according to the TT rules.

[Slow_Runner]

Balance issues would be more suiting for this particular issue me thinks...

[Compeador]

Nooooes, not another balance thread! Bad slow runner, BAD!

[Chuck Norris]

I'm so tired of people saying "according to fluff...", look I love the fluff just as much as anyone else, but you can't have it translated into gameplay and hope for any sort of balance.

According to fluff, 1 commie squad would be destroyed by 2 marines with ease, A termie squad could very easily take a few squads of nobz, and an avatar could decimate any army in DoW. Does that mean the game should reflect this? Of course not. Balance takes precedence over fluff by a long shot.

[SpaceMarineJoe]

Just so you know, WLs beat defilers in melee and with upgrade they got 4k HP and only cost 100/250 compared to a dread that costs 170/305 as well it builds 33% faster than dreads. Its generally the most cost effective walker and with BL it just demolishes other vehicles and buildings.

[ImmortalChaos]

I think the defiler should be a LOT stronger, and thats the problem.

In TT, i believe that walkers are ordered (in toughness) like

Wraithlord
Defiler
Killa Kan
Dreadnaught
Sentinal

So , yea, you really got the WL wrong. Its tougher than a FP in TT. It IS and army on its own. Same with the defiler (off topic) it should be a mix of a killa kan, a WW, and hellfire dreadnaught. But should be really expencive.

[SpaceMarineJoe]

Defiler???? Not in CC... and the armour is mediocre, same as dread. Its just big and it has 2 weapon skill.

[ImmortalChaos]

Huh? really? i heard somewhere it was a beast, and could take several dreds..

BTW, bigness = better armour in my books.

[SpaceMarineJoe]

It could take several dreads on say a 72" board easily cause it has battle cannon which is str 8 so you just need a 3+ to hit, 4+ to cause dmg and easily destroy em before they inch to a defiler.

Also big just means bigger target and easier to fall apart im my books Stubby dreads for the win.

[ImmortalChaos]

I can stand dreads cause there stubby, kanz cause there stubby, sents because there tiny, and defiler because they have a thousand legs, but HOW THE FUCK does the WL stand up?

[The_Guardman]

In TT, i believe that walkers are ordered (in toughness) like

Like:

1) Wraithlord (it use Infantry stats whit huge toughtness). Most pepole in TT find that 2 or 3 WL are IMBA.

2) Defiler (have a lot of upgrades who can boost his relilence, but it end up costing a lot of points).

3) Dreadnought (average resilence, but great weapons choice and versatility + drop pod matter).

4) Ork Dreadnought (who is the DoW Killer Kan. In TT Killer Kans are a lesser version who goes around in squads. In DoW they called the Ork Dreaddy Killer Kan to avoid confusion, giving to a lot of TT players an headcache.)

5) IG sentinel, who btw have half point cost of the others.

To efficency, who is point cost/ damage done, it is (included average upgrades):

1) WL
2) SM Dread
3) Sentinel
4) Defiler
5) Ork Dread

[Ophion]

Maybe move the wraithlord up the tech tree then, give it a few extra HP and make it cost more, ala killa kan?

[nemesis09]

Ophion Maybe move the wraithlord up the tech tree then, give it a few extra HP and make it cost more, ala killa kan?

I think the wraithlord is perfectly fine the way they are, and they match the eldar's playstyle well: fast, deadly, but fragile.

The only thing they need is probably a slight cost increase and a major nerf of the brightlance, especially against buildings.

The last thing I want is a wraithlord that is basically the same is a kan/dreadnought, and just looks different.

[Rossi Power]

I think the wraithlord is perfectly fine the way they are, and they match the eldar's playstyle well: fast, deadly, but fragile.

Can't help myself here.......if they are perfect...then why

The only thing they need is probably a slight cost increase and a major nerf of the brightlance, especially against buildings.

Personally I think they are fine as they are.

[wnmnkh]

According to TT, WL should be the top of all units (hands down).

[ImmortalChaos]

Yea, it shouldnt be the equivelant of a kan/dread, its should be simpley a monster (200/400 anyone?)

[Niah]

Let the eldar feel the nerf stick and make wraiths 4 pop!!!


But seriously in my opinion real problem lies not in the "sheer powah" of eldar vehicles but rather in ability to have them so fast and in great numbers thanks to eldar super duper economy
and most cost effective tier 1 army which saves a lot of req for gaydar player in the future.

(i dont even mention prism and of course brightlances on wraiths which are over the top)

[The_Guardman]

Most than WL, Most than veicle spam, what piss me is the HP of the veicles... FP have (upgraded) 6200HP, SM Predator 5500... A Leman Russ, who shall be second only to the Land Raider (who is Third after BB and Squiggoth first, but both are SHV), have a little 5200...

[Compeador]

Eldar super duper conomy doesn't exist until very late game. It actually starts off slower than most races.

[Niah]

With cheapest lps? and total t1 pwnage thx to reapers+seer?, with insta big gen if map has a slag? and still cash for hero or reapers? quite a good start in my humble opinion.

If that is still far from "super duper" in your eyes then im totally puzzled

[BeserkWraithlor]

Let the eldar feel the nerf stick and make wraiths 4 pop!!!

Great idea! Orks are a MASSED RACE! Eldar are few in number and VERY rare. So you should not be seeing 10-16 wriathlords walking all over the map and only seeing 5 puny kans. 4 pop is nice, but wraithlords are the most powerful walkers.

[CrossOrion]

What's the cost of Eldar troops as compared to other races?

LPs may be cheap, but I recall a reaper squad cost over 200 req to get out and only have 3 somewhat fragile members.

[Niah]

"fragile" is the last word i could say bout reapers , not only they are tough but also most mobile thanks to FoF which saves eldar players butt from every badly chosen engagement. They are worth every req point they cost plus some more.

[Dunxco]

Hmm... To tell you the truth, I end up getting crushed by Support Platform spamming more than anything else. I reckon they should stick to the tabletop game in that they have to be attached to a Guardian squad, otherwise they aren't going anywhere. Seriously, they're the Eldar equivalent of a turret, but mobile! They chew through my Sluggas and Stormboyz like Johnny Vegas through alcohol. Numbers aren't so much a problem.

On-topic: The Eldar, as the manual says, should have to stick to rigid tactics, and aren't good at on-the-fly tactics. Much like it saying "Gretchen can be meat-shields", this is utter rubbish. Eldar end up coming off as a better swarmer race at times, and the Bonesinger has some mad abilities - teleport and then tie up the enemy barracks/tank shop, 'tis vile! I would say "Rah rah Nerf the Eldar rah rah rah!" But then again, since when did Relic ever listen to us?

[ImmortalChaos]

I find that orks can have a small problem with plats if eldar spams them before you you can get powerclaws (nob leader ones). Orks will have a much bigger problem with, say, a falcon or a WL.

[Chuck Norris]

I've never really seen eldar use platforms, but once someone tried to use turrets offensively, failed horribly against me. But as ImmortalChaos said, the small problems of platforms are overshadow by the falcons and WL problems.