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Specs for models to be used in DoW.

  1. #1
    Retired modder compiler's Avatar
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    Specs for models to be used in DoW.

    Lack of modelers is a plague to the mod teams.
    On the other hand, not all modelers are familiar with DoW's specifications, which makes prospective candidates even rarer.

    Sometimes, a modeler can approach a team and ask "I'd like to model for your mod. Can you tell me what channels are used by Dow's engine, and which specifications to build the models on ?".

    To help answer this question, I have written a basic tutorial.
    It is quite long, so I put it under the spoiler tag below.

    Show tutorial




    What I would like from you :
    - from experienced people : to correct the unavoidable mistakes I have made
    - from less experienced people (but with a suitable experience in 3dsMax) : tell me if all this makes sense to you
    - from FinalDeath : to add this to the Wikki once people have posted and corrected it
    - from everyone : your forgiveness. Remember that I opened 3dsMax for the first time 1 year ago. I'm just a beginner.
    Last edited by compiler; 7th Sep 06 at 9:42 AM.


  2. #2
    The Omniscient havoc's Avatar
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    Great animation Tips
    *opens max...*
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  3. #3
    Valandar
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    You reference skinning... must one use the Skin modifier, or is Physique allowed?

  4. #4
    Retired modder compiler's Avatar
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    Well, in all the folders I have opened, only the skin modifier was used.
    I wouldn't be positive that Physique cannot be used but I have never seen it used.

  5. #5
    Valandar
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    Hrms. Okay, I'm a lot more used to the Physique modifier, but I can deal with Skin if I have to. Any further questions were sent privately.

  6. #6
    Friedric P
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    Great Compiler !!

    Just 2-3 points I apparently didn't read :

    - About models: the buildings models, if they are supposed to use stencil shadows, must have "closed" geometry, or stencil shadows will crash/do a strange result. The same apply to any element that is supposed to use stencil shadow (some maps static meshes does). That may be useful to consider if from the beginning

    That's, beyond exemples, the reason why the thunderhawk seems so badly optimised at first look

    Also, skinning won't work with stencil shadows. Can someone confirm me that IGNORESHADERS will stop shadow casting from the skinned object? 'Cause I didn't tried yet.

    - Textures in 1024 work very well WITHOUT the army painter. With the army painter, it is for the moment still unknown: Goldo did have crash and bug for the whole game with 1 AP texture, while it works perfectly for Falk's Land Raider Crusader. I still have to investigate to see exactly how and why.

    - For exporting animations: Regarding to timeline, the exporter only exports what he sees in the max file. That means, if your animation goes from frame 16 to 256, and your timeline is define accordingly, it will only export it from frame... 16 to 256. This can be very useful sometime. (for structures build animations for instance)

    About Physique, I've never seen it works with the DoW exporter. Personnaly, I consider that physique is obsolete and conserved only for compatibility issues. I also don't think you can configure its vertex weights in order to work with the exporter; its way of configuring vertex weight isn't precise enough.

    Plop!

  7. #7
    Valandar
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    Hrms, next question, I guess:

    How do I define a region to be Team Colorable? The above notation simple says that it is possible.

  8. #8
    Retired modder compiler's Avatar
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    IBBoard has made a good tutorial about this. Can someone give the link ?
    This is rather easy to do, it's just a matter of making a different tga for each colour (primary, secondary, trim, eyes, weapons) and one that tells which areas are teamcolourable (Dirt).
    Have a look at the examples Relic gave us in the My_Mod texture folder and you'll see what I mean (check the alpha channels).


    @Fried : I'll edit my post. Thanks !

  9. #9
    I'll add it to the wiki, provide some screenshots of the appropriate parts too

    If you can divide it up it'd be cool

    Or you can add it yourself, up to you.
    Finaldeath

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  10. #10
    Valandar
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    Oh, one final question. What about smoothing groups? Acceptable, or do I need to waste polys on beveling "sharp" edges, or waste vertexes on "splitting" edges??

  11. #11
    Artificer Minoris IBBoard's Avatar
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    Good job I read this

    Making Non-teamcolourable areas teamcolourable

    As for smoothing groups - from what I know they are acceptable, because Santos' tools don't extract the models as smoothly as they are in-game (not being able to extract smoothing groups was mentioned at one point)
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  12. #12
    Brother Santos
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    Well done compiler! This should become a sticky i think.

    Now i want to point out few things:

    It is advised that a mesh should not be skinned to more than 20 bones.
    Where did you get this value?
    All the vertices in a skinned mesh must be skinned to at least 1 bone and no more than 2.
    No more than 4.
    The exporter will also give you an error if one of the weights is too low (0.5/0.5 is OK, while 0.98/0.02 is not).
    This is untrue. You can use any value between 0 and 1 to to weight a given vertex. Errors may appear sometimes but i belive they are caused by some bugs in the Skin modifier.
    Each movable unit (infantry, vehicle, monsters...) must be attached to a special helper called "master". It is this helper that will be moved along by the game, while the mesh atop it will perform its animations.
    Not really. Master is not even saved into whm file (unless it's a bone).
    Markers are usually added to be the starting point of FX (flame, breath, decals on the ground, gun fire, hits, sparks...).
    Orientation of the marker is important. Local Y axis should usually point to the direction effect will be played (direction of gun fire for example) but this may be different with some fx.
    - declare meshes as "max bones", except those that are skinned, and, possibly, those that are last in a hierarchy chain (nothing attached to them, not even a marker)
    Hmm i'd rather say DON'T declare meshes as bones unless you intend to animate them.
    - in each animations, put everything to stale, except the meshes and bones you animate in this animation
    In most cases you don't need to use Stale at all. This property should generally be used in animations that will be stacked on top the other ones in OE (vis anims, aims etc.).

  13. #13
    Valandar
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    Excellent... So the maximum number of bones a vertex can be assigned to is 4? That makes shoulder rigging a LOT easier.

    Must bones be biped objects or Max bones? Or can dummy helpers also be used as bones? For example, say I'm making a character with a sword in one hand. In one of his animations, he twirls it to face backwards and stabs down, releases it for a moment, then yanks it out. The easiest way for me to represent this is to use a dummy helper as an extra "bone", with a second dummy helper as a terminus.

    Also, is there a list of tag objects and where they should be placed? For example, a "weapon" tag to show where the weapon firing FX should be played from, a "flag" tag to show where a flag would be held, that sort of thing.

    As for smoothing groups - from what I know they are acceptable, because Santos' tools don't extract the models as smoothly as they are in-game (not being able to extract smoothing groups was mentioned at one point)
    So in other words to have a nice sharp edge, I need to split the vertices or bevel the edges?

    Sorry for all the questions, I'm just trying to think of things that may come up. I'm getting the actual game sometime this week, so I haven't been able to actually look at the sample files, yet.

  14. #14
    Friedric P
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    For the skinning working with 4 bones, I will go for it, but I will put a temporary reserve . I mean, it worked with Falk's inquisitor, but it failed last week for one of my models, with a limit of 3.

    Anyway, Falk and I also noticed that there is a problem with the default biped from the space marine scene. This problem appears mainly when you try to use fingers in the skinning. Falk did have to create a new biped for the LR crusader, the original was crashing the exporter. I did have EXACTLY the same problem last week with my model. It may also have caused my skinning problem with the limit of 3, but I can't confirm yet.

    Bones can be any kind of object, as long as they are setuped as bones (characters->bone tools->bone on). If you want your bone to react exactly like a standard object (mainly for translations), desactivate Freeze Lengfh/Auto Align/Correct Negative Stretch. From what I can say, if an object isn't skinned and not defined as bone, it will not be animated in the object editor and the game. Even if it is linked to a bone.

    Dummy or point helpers can be used and animated, there is no obligations to define these as bones (but sometimes, I was forced to do so, don't know exactly why). I uses dummies a lot in my buildings setups, and it works great

    For the tag, it is made with dummies or point helpers. Like the great Brother Santos said for the orientation.

    For the flag, I have one marker (point) in my scenes, but I don't know exactly if it is used effectively by the game engine.

    Smoothing groups are perfectly supported. You may anyway need to bevel sometimes; that's what I've done for many of my characters faces, it gives a better result

    'Hope it helps!

    Plop!

  15. #15
    Retired modder compiler's Avatar
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    OK, modifications done.
    Thanks everyone for your corrections.
    If you have some more, please feel free to make more posts.

    @ finaldeath : I'd be very happy if you could post it in the wikki : I never understood how to post there.
    You can divide it up along the main topics, but I think it makes more sense if it is all kept together.

    @ Valandar :
    Fried P has given better answers than I can ever do.

    @ Brother Santos :
    The value of 20 bones to a mesh was mentionned in the early posts about modelling. It was acurate for DoW 1.2. I don't know if this recomendation was changed after.
    I remember this was a recomandation, not an absolute maximum.

    As for the number of bones and the weight values : I always get errors on export if I use low values for weights and often get errors if I skin a vertex to more than 2 bones.
    So I decided to keep on the safe side for this tutorial.

    As for declaring meshes as max bones : you need to do this if you want them to animate something attached to them.

    As for the use of the Stale : You are right, of course. Actually you can ponder in each animation which parts to put into stale and which invisible. I was just giving a basic rule to avoid unneccessary headaches for beginners. But rules are made to be broken.

  16. #16
    Senior Member CLR's Avatar
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    I have about 5 minutes, so I can add some tidbits about how to get vehicle physics to work on a given model (use at your own risk).

    Ref setup: Take a look at the predator example. The 4 following helpers need to be in the file.
    • "Tank_Master" : Dummy: Used to move the unit in game
    • "Body" : Bone: Used to apply overlap and impacts to the chassis
    • "Right_Tread", "Left_Tread" : Used to follow the terrain independantly from the body


    There are also settings in the simvis file that enable the physics and let you adjust the feel and calculate the accuracy of the treads following the ground. Most of them are self explanatory.

    vehicle_physics = 1 -- physics on!
    vehicle_width : width of vehicle
    vehicle_length : length of vehicle
    vehicle_nr_wheels : number of points along tread used to average its vector along terrain (tanks shouldn't be more than 3, hover vehicles only need 2)
    vehicle_spring_constant = body of vehicle reaction to acceleration and impact physics
    vehicle_damper_constant = dampening on above (not confirmed though - quircky)
    vehicle_wheel_travel = range of travel on the entire tread with respect to the body of vehicle (shock absorption measured in distance)
    vehicle_acceleration_factor = ...
    vehicle_gravity = 1.0 -- normal earth gravity
    vehicle_debug_render = 1.0 -- turns on visual representation in game
    vehicle_render_offset <-- remove this and ignore!
    vehicle_height_offset : used for hover vehicles, set to height you have the actual body of the unit in the ref file.

    Note that you don't need the tread bones for hover vehicles, but still need the tank master and body.

    Have fun!
    Please, no unsolicited PM.

  17. #17
    Retired modder compiler's Avatar
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    Many many thanks to CLR to have taken from his overcrowded time schedule to post these precisions.
    This explains the Chimera's tracks behaviour.

    I added the parts about the helpers to be present in a vehicle to the present tutorial.

    The parts explaining the simvis file should be added to another part of the wikki.

  18. #18
    Valandar
    Guest
    You know, I'm surprised this hasn't been 'stickied' yet.

    Also, I'm having a bit of a problem with animations. Namely, I'm not sure what I need to do for a vis file. How exactly, step by step, would I do the following?

    1 ) A given mesh has a sword, with a scabbard at his side. For a special animation, he sheaths his sword, and does a wavy hand bit (this is just an example, btw).

    In the game I'm used to working with, Freedom Force, I'd attach a dummy to the hand, and have one copy of the sword attached to it, then have a dummy attached to the hip, and have a second copy attached there, oriented so it's in his sheath. Then between frames, as the hand moves the sword into the sheath, the dummy for the hand is shrunk to 0.1% scale, while the one on the hip is grown to 100%. When he draws his sword again, the hip dummy is shrunk to 0.1% and the one in the hand is grown to 100%. The overall effect happens faster than the eye can see, and it appears to be a single sword, placed into a sheath and drawn again.

    Since dummies don't work, how would one go about creatng this sort of animation?

    Next question also deals with animation. Is there "blending" between the animations? Specifically, do most animations have to have a 'default' start and end, or does the system interpolate between poses as needed? IOW, do all the animation files need to start the same, or can they begin with unique poses?

  19. #19
    It won't be stikied. I'll add this to the wiki once compiler thinks its complete and has edited it to a reasonable standard he wants. I can't check the information in it

    These forums are not meant to consist of stickied tutorials, they are meant to have threads and discussions in them really.

  20. #20
    Retired modder compiler's Avatar
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    Vis files :
    vis files are files where some parts are set to visible and the rest to invisible.
    These animations are to be stacked on top of other animations to represent various states of upgrades or random looks.
    To set up a vis file : select all the objects, open Relic's DoW Properties Browser script, set everything to stale and invisible, then select in the list the meshes you want to be appear in the vis file and unselect "invisible" for them.
    If you are not using Relic's DoW Properties Browser script, select the meshes, open the properties box, and in the User Defined property tab, write :
    Stale = Yes (for all meshes)
    ForceInvisible = Yes (for the meshes you want to be invisible).


    As for your trick :
    I remember having read that altering size during animation didn't work.
    You can add a visibility track to your animation, but this means having both swords in the ref file, one being set to invisible in every animation, except the one you are talking about.


    As for the transition animations :
    As I posted in my 1st posts, DoW don't handle transitions.
    So you must make each idle animation start and end in the same position. The same goes for melee animations or fire animations or any set of animations (but not all "default" positions should be the same).



    @FinalDeath : I think that the tutorial is fairly acurate right now. Do you need me to edit it in some way so that it can be uploaded to the wikki more easily ?

  21. #21
    This is now on the wiki for everyones pursual, update or edit there as nessissary please guys: http://www.relic.com/rdn/wiki/DOWMod...Specifications

  22. #22
    FIG
    Guest
    WOW, I just got 3D Studio Max 8 and with this, I can probably start making a model or 2......

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