Maps get no support from Relic!

[Dorkdav]

Sure in a patch balance and bugs are an important parts. But what about maps?

Maps are an important of the game play experience. Would anyone say that Meeting of the Minds and Battle Marshes play out the same way? Kyser Lutien and Mortalis?

They have removed some bad maps from autorotation and added 4 player maps but those are quick fixes. What about making some new maps with input from the community? What about adding some good community maps into a patch?

What about modifying some existing maps to make them better? Like changing Fallen City a bit to make the pathing better?

Map are important and I think they deserve a little more attention from the developer.

[Akranadas]

Legal reasons

[LowBrow]

Please elaborate... that could mean anything.

[DatonKallandor]

That means they cant use things they havent made themselves.


Daton

[hybris]

I'm more interested in Relic adding an auto-download feature in their own upcoming Battle.net.
That way the custom maps and mods would be used a hell of a lot more.

[Aron_DeTomado]

Wait.
Stop.
Did you make that up? Rattle.net? Seriously?

[Dorkdav]

I'm aware that there is some legal issues to work around. But I don't understand why it would be so hard to work it out.

Heck if they got permission from the author they could just remake the map themsleves using the community map that has a proven both balanced and fun as a model.

[Aron_DeTomado]

Well, I think they'd need written permission from the maker. And they'd have to know it is actually the real maker, so they'd basicly have to send a lawyer to his/her house, and that's not really viable.
Sure, they could just send him an e-mail with a box that he ticks in. But that wouldn't stand up in court, if the makers chooses to sue(I'm not saying they would, but lets assume they get kidnapped by the Yahoo! board of Directors).

[Master222]

Hmmmm... Mayby let relic focus on the game itself, and leave something as easy as creating maps for the community.

[retroholyfire]

Map sharing should be promoted more by Relic so you can download maps whilst in the lobby.

[Akranadas]

Just keep telling people to download the map packs

[BeserkWraithlor]

Relic should add more maps next patch, AND upgrade the maps made by players to improve its gameplay. You should be able to download maps when a player hosts it. I hate it when somebody hosts an ultra cool map, but you waste your time going to DOW FILES.com to download it.

Blizzard Makes new maps for Warcraft 3 every week, and they even add more and improve maps made by players! They also have a "thumbs down" option to prevent you from playing a map you hate for its "automatch". When a player makes a map, for example, CAPTURE THE FLAG, you don't have to go online and download it, you download it INGAME! So no need to go to download sites!

[Master222]

BeserkWraithlor yes you are right it would be nice to download the maps directly ingame, but to doo that relic has to first develop their own "battle.net", they can't do it via gamespy.

[DatonKallandor]

Maps for DoW are huge, if they are even semi-good looking. And Relic clearly aims to keep DoW playable with dial up.


Daton

[Akranadas]

Cant you think of me for once!?

[Compeador]

Quick, nobody think of Akranadas!

Anyway, there are plenty of really really awesome maps out there. Even some that have mod-like characteristics, but work in regular gameplay. The absolute BEST Ive seen so far is this http://dowsanctuary.com/index.php?showtopic=14411 Map pack by ]psy[

For those of you (wretched) souls without a DoWs account, heres the DL link.

Map pack

Manual


Get both, as youll be completely lost without the manual.... but the maps and game modes are AWESOME.

All credit for these maps goes to ]psy[

EDIT: Dorkdav I KNOW you've seen these ffs.

[Worf]

Folks autodownload means that
a) the maker of the game has to distribute the map to everyone in the game which means with HIS upload speed (let's say 50kb at the best) and
b) every 56ker has to download it from the host (which acutally doesn't make much of a difference if you distribute 50 kb over 7 people)

The current peer-to-peer setup of the game is not suited for an auto-download feature. It would take ages to get a game started.

[Dorkdav]

Even if we trun away from peer to peer and community maps for a bit, look at the map content we got from Winter Assault for 1v1.

Abandon All Hope
Absolute Zero
Eden
Quest's Triumph
Shrine of Excellion

Now how many of these maps belong in competitive automatch? I would say that Shire of Excellion is the only one that could make the cut. The first three are awful and Quest Triumph favors the bottom player. Shine is a tech map but it isn't that bad.

So it's not just new content that I'm complaining about it's the quality as well. There seems to to be know logic or diolouge about what makes a good or bad map. Who would honestly think that Eden is a fun map!?

What I'm try to see here is that maps are an important part of the game experience and I think they are being nelegected by both the developer and the community.

[DoctorX]

The only downside with user created maps is a possible flood of hacked versions of the regular maps. I keep thinking of the "BGH Factor" that plagued StarCraft on the old Battle.Net. BGH stood for Big Game Hunters, which was StarCraft's equivalent of Kasyr Lutien. In StarCraft's case, there were literally hundreds of versions of BGH, either hacked with extra resources, or infinite resources, or widened choke points, or all obstacles removed, etc. 95% of all Battle.Net games were a bodgy version of BGH. Now, DoW doesn't have resource gathering, but it wouldn't surprise me to see people going off and filling the universe with funny named files, hacked versions of the original file name, multiple versions of different maps, and so on. Its easier for someone to badly hack an existing map than make a good one from scratch.

[Noir]

Wait.
Stop.
Did you make that up? Rattle.net? Seriously?

Yes and No he did and did not.

If the maps are too big, just make it optional, duh. Homeworld had this feature anyway, though that was on WON. I bet that you can't put this feature on GS.

[Corsix]

Well, I think they'd need written permission from the maker. And they'd have to know it is actually the real maker, so they'd basicly have to send a lawyer to his/her house, and that's not really viable.

This is a license for the mod/mod/addon "my mod" (henceforth called the mod). I "name here" confirm that I am the author of the mod, and I hereby give Relic Entertainment / THQ permission to distribute any past, present or future version of the mod for free or commercial purposes. If I am ot the author of the mod then I agree to pay any legal fees arising from the distribution of the mod.
Signed "name here".

Get the THQ legal team to flesh that out, then get modders to fax a copy of that to Relic if Relic wants to distribute their mod with a patch/expansion.

[DatonKallandor]

Its still sueable especially over in sue-country (aka USA). There will always be numbskulls who try to get quick money and for a few maps its just not worth the hassle.


Daton

[Aron_DeTomado]

Maps for DoW are huge, if they are even semi-good looking. And Relic clearly aims to keep DoW playable with dial up.

Lag is caused by poor computers, not by 56k connections.

Really, I don't beleave in the "it would take a long time to upload" arguement. Sure, it might keep you waiting for a while, but certainly not as long as trying to explain to your average GSer how to go to the site and DL them, only getting a "comprehende nicht la englísh por favor bitte merci" and a frop as response. If someone is taking far to much time DLing the thing, there is a little thing called the kick-function.
For those who wouldn't want to wait, they could still do what they do now: Try to find people who have the map or try to get people to DL it.
In addition, I could see people hosting "no game, map DL only" 'games'. I've seen it in both WCIII and AoM, so I certainly can't see why it wouldn't happen in DoW:WA.

[The_Guardman]

A simple option windows will make everyone happy. Just put in it
"download player's map?" Y/N
"Maximal size (MB)"
"Maximal player N° in the map"

"download player's banners?" Y/N
"download player's badges?" Y/N

Why, for Emperor's sake, are not the shorkey present in the options...? Every game feature it!

[CrossOrion]

I think Tranj said something along the lines of they are looking into this feature sometime ago in one of his mysterious posts. So I think it will be concievable in the near future, thus no reason to debate whether it is possible or not.

[peturabo]

Relic and support in the same sentence, lol what a joke.

[NathrakH]

why are we worried about people with 56k modems?

so what!! if they can't download a map, it's their problem not ours. it has no bearing on the fact that the feature should be in the game. patches should include new maps.
the entire community shouldn't be held to the standard of 56k gamers. this is 2006 for christ sake. that might have flown in the mid 90s, but come on.

i think that's just a terrible excuse.

The only downside with user created maps is a possible flood of hacked versions of the regular maps. I keep thinking of the "BGH Factor" that plagued StarCraft on the old Battle.Net. BGH stood for Big Game Hunters, which was StarCraft's equivalent of Kasyr Lutien. In StarCraft's case, there were literally hundreds of versions of BGH, either hacked with extra resources, or infinite resources, or widened choke points, or all obstacles removed.

that doesn't keep you from playing the normal version. if people want to "hack" the map and have fun with it they should be able to. that's what keeps games like this alive for 10 years with no sequel.

[Finaldeath]

Maps are damn large, I don't see why this discusssion about distributions are continuing. Kasyr Lutien is a hefty 5.75 MB uncompressed, and 1.38MB compressed using ZIP. Starcraft/Warcraft maps pale in comparision - they don't use TGA heightmaps/cover maps/terrain painting.

I don't see distributing upwards of 5MB on any connection feasable, especially for more then one other player, unless it is zipped. If it is zipped, then it may be possible, even then, thats 1.38MB. Thats a lot of upload time for 5, 6 or 7 other clients who don't have it!

Why can't it be zipped you ask? Possibly because the map requires custom decals and objects. Warcraft/Starcraft doesn't allow (large amounts) of new or altered things in their maps. If I add new decals (again, DDS or TGA) or objects (WHE/M files I think), then it bumps up the size and causes problems if you want to suggest zipping.

Finally, there are some other things, such as SCAR scripts - which may be included for a multiplayer map. Some even require things to be put in the /Scar folder. More complexity.

Its not a "Oh, hot damn, Relic are slow", its that the system they've designed for maps wasn't made for easy redistribution or packaging. Unless they come up with some kind of SGA distribution (these are archives they use) and somehow automatically load them, then its hard to know what the map needs to run unless the user defines it!

[Corsix]

"SGA distribution" - good idea as they are already compressed
D/Ling could be improved by D/Ling from all clients in the lobby with the map then releiving the bandwidth on the game host

[CrossOrion]

I get complete sync error just by having one scar file in the wrong folder :P Talk about complexity >_>

[Worf]

Pet, don't post in this thread anymore.

Ok, for all of you not getting it a simple mathematical example:

Let's take a 5MB map. That is 5120 KB.
The guy hosting the map has a regular german dsl 2000 connection. This means he has 24 KB per second upload speed.
Let's say we have a 6 player map. That means 5 players have to download the map.
That makes 4.8 kb/s average download speed for everyone.
Which leads us to 1066.7 seconds or 17.8 Minutes until everybody in the game has the map.

Which means everybody is downloading with 56k speed. It would take bloody AGES to get the damn map. Make this an 8 player map and you may as well cook a meal in the meantime.

And this is without running xfire/irc/teamspeak/whatever in the background.

Until this is not dealt with I see no basis for an autodownload feature.

Of course you could kick everybody that needs to download it. But where are we then? Right! exactly where we are now: people who want to play custom maps download them outside the game in 2 minutes max.

[Jay_Davis]

Sorry to disagree, but we would not be where we are now. Now, when you create a game with a custom map, you sit around for a long time, but sometimes you eventually get enough people to enter and check in. Then, when the game starts, one or more people are dropped out because THEY REALLY DIDN'T HAVE THE MAP. Thus, the enitre attempt to use custome maps becomes a complete waste of time.

Now, a long time ago, in a realease that seems far, far away, the game prevented you from checking in (and thus prevent the game from starting) if you didn't have the map. So, it took a while longer to start up a custom map game over a standard map game, but people did play them. You always saw one or two custom map games up. However, that simple saftey mechanism was broken in a release (1.3) and never fixed. So, over time, more and more people got tired of wasting time trying to start games with custom maps hoping that people really did have the map when the game started. With less people playing custom map games, less people download the maps, thus even fewer people that can play. All of this resulting in a cycle in which no one ever plays custom maps anymore.

So, while its nice and neat to talk about auto downloads and other useful stuff, all Relic had to do was FIX THE FEATURE THEY BROKE in order to prevent custom maps from dying off. If I sound annoyed, its because I am. All that had to be done to make a big improvent is do something that I can't believe is that difficult to do, and they don't bother. So you tell me what message Relic is sending to its player base?

[mean2u]

Relic and support in the same sentence, lol what a joke.

Erm, actually we are very fortunate to have anyone (Tranj) talk with the community, whether it be from THQ or Relic.

[Dorkdav]

Talk is good but Tranj doesn't fix the game.

Am I the only one that thinks the maps that they given us after the releash of Dawn of War release are substandard?

[MeatPacker]

Absolute Zero and the landing Zone are bad, as is Dread Peak because of the pathing, but I'd be willing to give Eden a go automatch (provided the game was otherwise balanced), and wouldn't mind seeing Tainted Pair back in the roundup.

But, yes, overall you can add maps to the list of Winter Assault disappointments.

[Dorkdav]

I don't know about Eden, it should be renamed "Lose to a rush". The upside is that Eldar would lose quite often on it. Choas too I beat.

[Chinbobbabobot]

I'd like to see more maps large enough for Imperial Guard bases. Their structures are monstrously huge, their defenses are way too big and too many maps are too small to fit a lot of their stuff on it. Hell, I need 2 factories and a Mars command just to have an 18 vehicle cap. Jesus Christ.
What they should do is increase the cap provided by buildings. That way you only need one of each structure if the map's too small.
But I needn't complain. It won't solve much. Except vent some frustration, of course.

[Dys]

Am I the only one that thinks the maps that they given us after the releash of Dawn of War release are substandard?

Agreed

But I do think they gave em a decent amount of effort and were trying to be creative with new map designs etc.

You are right though, 1.5 years after DoW was released we are still playing the same maps over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over ... and over ... and over ... ... ... over ... ... over ... ... ... .... ....

[BeserkWraithlor]

I'd like to see more maps large enough for Imperial Guard bases. Their structures are monstrously huge, their defenses are way too big and too many maps are too small to fit a lot of their stuff on it. Hell, I need 2 factories and a Mars command just to have an 18 vehicle cap. Jesus Christ.
What they should do is increase the cap provided by buildings. That way you only need one of each structure if the map's too small.
But I needn't complain. It won't solve much. Except vent some frustration, of course.

Thats a pretty good idea, making a map DESIGNED for a race. Like make a map with unreachable buildings, but eldar can teleport there and build turrets, Or a large dug in map, designed for IG players, or Island Maps for jumping and DSing for SM. Before you shout:IMBA, they can be "noob" friendly maps.