[1.5 Pre-Beta Changelog] Balance issues - Read First Post

[Akranadas]

Maybe the Psykers New Ability will be like soul strip, so it can back fire on you maybe a 40% chance of your psyker exploding , just that would make it balanced

[Old Painless]

I think every squad should have a psyker just so we can constantly hear spikes voice !! Its amazing.

Dark Reapers 60% armour penetration needs to come down, and down, and down.......to about slugga pistol level..ha ha

[SageBR]

I´m seeing discussion about SM Tier 2 and 3 here, but not taking in consideration 1 aspect: I think most players agree that SM tier 1 is the worse among other races. So here is my doubt: the 25% buff to all tier 1 units.

If it affects all tier 1 units, there will be no difference in the infantry engagements, wich will not solve the weak SM Tier 1.
Does some 1 care to explain how this buff will work?
PS: sorry for the bad english.

[JibbaJabba]

the 25% buff to all tier 1 units.

If it affects all tier 1 units, there will be no difference in the infantry engagements, wich will not solve the weak SM Tier 1.
Does some 1 care to explain how this buff will work?

Well, if infantry vs infantry at tier 1 is unaffected, it'll basically just increase the amount of damage dealt to anything that isn't tier 1 infantry - meaning buildings. So early infantry will be able to raze enemy buildings faster (further exacerbating the problem of most games where they never even get past Tier 2 before the game is already decided).

At least that's what I gleaned from it, maybe I read it wrong.

[n0z3k1ll3r]

The buff is simple. If your opponent reaches Tier 2 before you do they no longer recieve such an enormous advantage.

[fuggles]

Might be fun if 'purge the weak' took a chunk of hp of surrounding units before it boosted them? Chaos-y.

No changes to PSM or am I missing something? They seem either a little too fast or a little too hardy right now.

The t1 thing is cool, especially with cheaper turrets. Interesting times, especially the rangers (who look cool and I badly want them to be my favourite unit).

[CrazyMiggs]

Touched on by several people, but wont Falcon tech + FD's now be a particularly viable combo? It will come out fast, allow Eldar to tech holofield instead of WL's initially, tech the infantry upgrades and jump FD's around safe in the knowledge Falcs can mow down even more infantry than they do now.

When combined with no changes to Eldar Big Gen advantages - build speed / cost of BS / teleport this seems to be in danger of being a bit over powering.

I primarily play Eldar and Chaos, I recognise the obvious need to nerf aspects of Eldar, appreciate the Rangers buffs (still believe that the damage / morale damage effects of the long rifle need to be severly increased to make them viable - will be interesting to see by how much 1.5 will improve this), but even as a dedicated Eldar player Falcs + FD's now seem to be in danger of overwhelming tiers 1-2.

Perhaps require Falcs to have a stone req before being built? Combine with keeping Eldar big gen bonuses the same except perhaps increase the cost a bit (not too much) but enough to give a 30sec-1 min break in the fast tech to falcs?

Overall though I think these changes will be fantastic, Chaos looks to me to transform the early game significantly and I look forward to the longer time I look to be spending in tier 0-1.5.

Also agree with most people who feel Zerks pop cap 4 is harsh, 3 is a good number for me if there is enough consensus that they need to be nerfed; but for me they do not need nerfing at all.

I imagine the nerf is to keep the transition from early to mid tier becoming too powerful for Chaos. Since Chaos doesnt currently have scaling tier 0 troops really ATM Zerks help jump them up when they hit tier 2, so in theory having scaled tier 0/1 troops + zerks could be harsh; but surely the cost of scaling those troops will delay Zerks anyway and therefore remove the need for a nerf?

[Hirmetrium]

the problem with cost changes in tier 2 HAS ALWAYS BEEN the cost in upper tiers - bezerkers will become MORE EXPENSIVE THAN TERMINATORS. you cant be telling me zerkers are OP yet terminators arent?

zerkers are just a massive punch for where they are at. I think pushing them back to need a sac circle would of been a better move.

the other problem is bezerkers need to make an impact where they are at - else theres no point having them. they have 0 upgrades, unlike bionics and target finders(which IMO shouldnt be included in 'costs', since they are a total race upgrade like tech research, so dont include them plz). pushing them back should work well with the new research, much better than the new cap. heck, make them 3 cap and require a sac circle - if that isnt enough, THEN buff the other races.

[[AF]purple]

Tier 3 of Chaos and Space marines need nerfing more. while orks need a tier 3 buff
also eldar need REAL tier 3 infantry. yes. mass spiders do the job. but they are still lacking to the other races. Maybe a final upgrade for "super mega spiders {and maybe a infantry cap cost increase too. so they are less mass more punch.}

Chaos Obliterators = squad size of 4 {like dow 1.4} but an incrase of 150 health to each oblit also increase damage by about 10% to Heavy infantry

Possesed need to be faster. but have HP of 850 {down from 950}

Assault terminators need a BIGGER nerf to stun. so it happens after about 9 hits of the hammer.

my BIGGEST worry. is that Whirl winds STILL wont injure friendly units. reducing their armour is all well and good. but you still need to get close to them while chased by hordes of assault terms!. making WWs. injure and throw friendly infantry {like artillery should!.}

ork PowA klawz production time needs to be 2 seconds.

Looted tanks need a 500 health buff

IG russ tanks need an Area of effect blast.. to disrupt infantry.

kasrkins grenade recharge needs a small incrase. and their plasma rifles need a small buff.

[Old Painless]

Putting Zerks at the Pit will not make much difference, it can be FL'd up in about 5 seconds. Zerks at 4 pop is too much, Kans at 4 pop are also too much, its not really worth putting it up as it lowers the amount of other squads you can purchase, defeating the object of making them less spammy by raising the cap in the first place. Make em 2 pop and cap at 4 squads. 1 led by Lord, 1 led by Sorc and two to be split between squad group 1 (2 x zerk + lord) and squad group 2 (2 x zerk and sorc). I'd also like to see zerks dependant on the chaos armoury, so if your opponent is quick teching to teir 2 with minimal forces you can slot the armoury and no zerks.

As for eldar teir 3, why not move rangers back and buff them ?

They aren't finding any use in teir 1.

[Hirmetrium]

no one wants caps. the fact of the matter is, you are destroying the whole point of zerkers - to be chaos's mainstay tier 2 troop. Limits at tier 3 maybe, but until zerkers start beating the living crap out of terminators which arent capped, no.

FLing the pit isnt possible unless u buy a new heretic, since it will have been used on the rax/LP's/power/armory. also the pit costs money, and isnt 'dirt' cheap.

Kans are another case. they have the problem that they need changing, unlike bezerkers. Kans need medium armor, 2 cap and a consioderable HP buff(up to 5000 maybe). that is not the case with bezerkers, so keep the two seperate.

Problem with rangers is their niche. their meant to be scout equivs, but the barracks is too late. swap guardians with rangers and buff guards to 1.4vanilla status. there, your rangers have a niche. i doubt it will happen however.

and for gods sake, dont nerf the zerker fast tech. its one of the only things that makes the game interesting, and if they pull it off with skillful cultist use in tier 1, theres no reason to punish them and not the foe for sitting in his base and/or getting map control. if zerkers ARE getting nerfed, theres no reason for furthering that.

[Old Painless]

Zerk fast tech will not be affected in any way by making the zerks require the armoury.

If your careless enough to build 2 cultist squads in a 1v1 and think your opponent wont attack you its your own fault if you die. If there was a reasonable chance that building some CSM in T1 would give you a much better chance of reaching T2 zerks you'd do it, as it is you needen't bother if your opponent isn't streaking to your base with plenty of T1 troops like lightning. By the time they realise your doing a fast zerk build if they are being cautious you have plenty of them and it gg.

Whats the best time for starting the T2 build with chaos 1:40 ish ?

[KingLouis]

Or you could make it mega slow with Zerkers requiring Machine Cult - though that might be too excessive.

4 pop is too excessive, because it prevents you from building other troops like Horrors. Limits would work better in that respect, since building 3-4 zerker squads won't severely bone you when you want a few AV horror squads.

[Hirmetrium]

If your careless enough to build 2 cultist squads in a 1v1 and think your opponent wont attack you its your own fault if you die. If there was a reasonable chance that building some CSM in T1 would give you a much better chance of reaching T2 zerks you'd do it, as it is you needen't bother if your opponent isn't streaking to your base with plenty of T1 troops like lightning. By the time they realise your doing a fast zerk build if they are being cautious you have plenty of them and it gg.

and if you have the balls to do so you deserve to win. CSM cant be built because they affect the strat too much. i know, because i MADE the strat. its most viable in 2v2's, where you have an ally.

sometimes i leave my armory at the front as a prime target to get some fire because its not required and has a good amount of HP - thats strategy. thus any nerf will potentially affect the strategy, so it must be considered.

the cap limit DOESNT work since if you build full cap zerkers that should beat whatever is in tier 3 through numbers. cap tier 3 units because theres nothing superior.increase the cap of powerful high tier units since they shouldnt be spammed for any other reason. If i spammed bezerkers at tier 3 only to be stopped by a cap? when my PSM dont have one? i'd call BS...

in other words, why should an SM player have THE RIGHT to spam tacs, yet I dont have the right to spam bezerkers? why are bezerkers capped and terminators not?

I still think bezerkers should get a good nerf and be buffed via the use of furious charge because then it would have a point...

[SirNick]

Hey, is there any knowledge about whether or not build and reinforce times of Ork Tankbustas will be changed? Currently, they're 20 seconds to build and 15 to reinforce; If those numbers are kept, it'll take 60 seconds to get the 3-strong squad out from Da Boyz Hut. In comparison, Nobz take 40 seconds to get out of the Boyz Hut, and the Big Mek takes 60 (before Gadjitz). That's a long time to tie up the Hut. Is this intentional with respect to the newly-buffed Tankbusta stats?

[tl998]

Do you ever build an extra Boyz hut if you need to tie it up with something slow? Although that's a bit expensive.

Edit - In 1.5 Falcons can disrupt infantry right? Does that mean we forsee Orks having massive problems against a fast vehicle rush from Eldar? Tankbustas will just get knocked around.

[choppa1]

I am an orc player, or I used to be until patch 1.41 orc down grade changed everything. dow is an awesome game and I write this to highlight my issues as a player and make suggestions for positive change.

I have many issues with the current orc army, however here is a few of the main ones:
1. Orc army is no longer infantry close combat based as they are supposed to be. This can only be changed by fixing sluggas and Nobs. Downgrade shootas if required, but bring back stompin to the orc vocabulary.
2. Nobs no longer pack the punch to match it with termies. As the only infantry based army orcs should have the strongest infantry unit as they certainly do not have the strongest vehicles. Nobs need to be able to take a hell of a lot of punishment to allow them to cross the field of combat, get close and be effective. Suggest Nobs go back to being elite tier 3 and storm boys upgraded to bridge gap between slugga and nob.
3. At end of tier 2 its the end for the orcs. Orcs have nothing with grunt past tier 2 (except the squiqqoth) but he is just 1 unit.
4. At end of tier 2 when 10 dreads turn up its over if the marine player is any good. 10 traks and tankbusters do not cut it. tankbusters seem to be getting an upgrade, however traks should also get an upgrade to extend their usefullness (upgrade for extra range on the chuka would be cool say past tier 2.5 as traks low armour make them quite innefective against preds, fire prisms etc) Extra range on the chuka might be hard to program though.
5. 5 kans will never do anything against 10 dreads. 4 veh cap is too many. The number of kans should the same as dreads, wraithlords, defilers, etc. Kans are so slow, only real good against buildings. I heard they were deemed too powerfull, if this is the case, maybe delay when they come out (tier 2.5) so they balance with when other armies can combat them. Upgrade IG to be more effective against heavy armour vehicles.
6. shoota boys only get big shoota upgrade (no flamers????)
7. Orc heros do not get decent special powers like orbital bombardment.
8. Orc heros add to population cap of 100. This means to get all heros (W Boss - 5, BM - 2, MANZ - 8, Big doc - 4) leaves room for only 81 more orcs. Space marine get 100 plus heros. Also this means crazy micro management to always leave room for your heros if they die. Heros affect no other races pop cap so why do they affect orcs.
8. Whirlwinds will slaughter an orc army. Orcs cannot defend against 10 whirlwinds. In several seconds an orc army will be decimated. Tankbusters cant get close and orc vehicles are too weak. Even if whirlwind armour is reduced it wouldnt matter. Their range is so long. All armies need an effective tactic to beat a spammed army. If you know whats coming (say 10 spammed whirlwinds) any race should be able to build an army to combat that. At the moment orcs cant build anything to beat 10 whirlwinds or 10 fire prisms for that matter.
9. No good tier 3 orc vehicles. Looted leman russ, is inneffective at tier 3. These need a good rethink and serious upgrade. They have bad accuracy and lousy damage, and do friendly fire.
10. How bout some cool grenades. vehicle (tankbuster bombs?) and infantry grenades to help a player with good micro skills beat a player who point and shoots.

Other comments.
Space marines:
- Whirlwinds see above
- Assault termies. they are so hard to kill. by the time 1 unit is dead, another has been spammed and is ready to drop right back in the same place. This as well as dreads dropping and a flight commander in for an quick OB.
- Orbital - too powerful

Chaos
- Good to see some upgrades for currently an underpowered army.

Eldar
- Fire prisms. 30 veh cap with avatar is too much. you make fire prisms 3 points then people will spam 15 wraith lords with bright lance (or something else). The logical solution is 20 cap like the other races. Eldar race is supposed to have the best technology, however they are supposed to be less numerous than other races. Eldar should be fast and lethal.

Anyway I hope some of the issus I have are at least tested and checked out.

[tl998]

I still say that Ork AV would be fine if, in addition to the 1.5 boosts, Tank-bustaz can't be disrupted.

[Old Painless]

That would make them OP, pretty much anything that stands on two legs should fall over if an artillery shell hits them.

[tl998]

But as of right now TBs are pretty crappy. Like I said, against any army with artillery type weapons, TBs are useless. Maybe I'm not using them right but that's my experience. Maybe an increase in truck AV damage, and also change TBs like thus: Vastly decrease their reload time (they can shoot once a second, for example) but decrease the damage per shot so the DPS is about the same or maybe just a bit higher. That way, even if they are disrupted, they get a few shots off before being disrupted again.

[CrossOrion]

TBs as they stand are not as crappy as one might think. Considering the amount of Artillary isn't actually even /alot/, I mean, SMs only get their artillary at tier 3, barring the hellfire, Chaos seldom ever employ defliers anymore and then even fewer in range stance, and Eldar don't even HAVE Artillary barring fire prisms. IG Bassis might prove a problem, but with infiltrate, TBs can pop up right next to them. IG bassis are also expensive powerwise, and many IG players would rather spend 300 power to tech to tier 3.

TBs can fire ON the move. They can't be disrupted that easily, as you can have up to 4-5 squads of TBs without seriously effecting your Nob cap. Those 4-5 squads can easily put enough damage on walker units and early tanks (falcons and chaos preds mainly) to make up their cost (Well, no, TBs are somewhat expensive at 75/20) .

With TBs now coming to 5 outright, they'll actually prove easier to disrupt, but may prove a harder force to contend with. (And they can actually shoot once per 2 second. The reason why TBs are crappy is because of an accuracy bug that cause them to miss nearly 2/3s of the time if the enemy vehicle is in cover or on a slightly different hight, Trakk AV damage is actually also quite formidable if employed enmassed. And if your a remotely decent Ork player, you will have 2-3 trakks to one dreadnought)


Oh. And for the love of god, its ORKs

[tl998]

So...I need to use 6 vehicle pop to counter every two vehicle pop for marines? And yeah I can make 4 TB squads...but reinforcing means I am broke and don't have anything left for vehicles or for building more nobz.

And Hellfires disrupt TBs very easily. 3 of them completely made my 4 squads of TBs cry. By the time my TBs got up from being knocked down the next missiles are already on their way.

[CrossOrion]

3 Hellfires go down to 6 Trakks. As TBs are infantry, and Hellfires are anti-infantry, I don't see the problem. Now, 3 hellfires means less 3 dreadnoughts, which are more threat to your trakks (need to dance your trakks more instead of just shooting down SM) It really comes down to what you have at that time vs what they have at that time. If you see 3 hell fires, then build trakks as opposed to spending more money on TBs.

Reinforcing doesn't mean too much if you can keep your TBs alive. Keep in mind you only need to reinforce /twice/ and if you can't afford that much, then your already on the losing battle. Orks need an economic advantage early on. (I usually have 2 squads of reinforcing nobs by the time even one TB shows up on the field. The amount of req you have coming in should roughly be enough to field those nobs and those TBs)

Now.

By the time you get trakks, you will have a vehicle pop of 12. Marines will tend towards the vehicle cap of 7, before either tieing up their HQ with tier 3 research, or spending the req on more troops. You can logistically /have/ 2-3 Trakks way before he can have the same amount of dreadnoughts, which actually cost more power. (they get stuck at 3 dreads if they are hard teching or even get stuck with 1 dread of they are REALLY hard teching)

Of course, this thread isn't actually the place to discuss Tankbuster strategies, but I'll say again. They aren't as weak as everyone makes them out to be. The fact that they are solid counters to Falcons and Chaos preds, which easily rip up Ork infantry, are good enough for me.

[tl998]

Isn't Hellfire better in AV than regular Dreads? That's always the impression I got.

[CrossOrion]

... Dreadnought fist does 118 dps compared to the hellfires 20 odd dps vs Vehicle_Medium. So you'll need 5 hellfires to one dreadnought to match the killing power you need to take out Trakks at a resonable rate, i.e. a rate which you can make more hellfires then he can make more trakks.

[tl998]

So Hellfires are actually anti-infantry instead of anti-vehicle? What do SMs get for AV then besides regular dreads? Currently their missile launchers aren't that great against vehicles methinks unless you get a *lot* of them

[KingLouis]

power swords and meltas

[SpaceMarineJoe]

Unless you use probes, you much better off using hellfires against trakks who are gonna run circles around your dreads by any decent player.

[Full_ork]

Well with the buff on ml's, besides the possibility of them being tied up, do you suppose they could aid in taking the hellfires place?

[tl998]

what about grenade launcher heavy weapon upgrades in tac squads? Can they be viable AV in t2?

[SirNick]

Do you mean the Missile Launchers in Tactical Marine squads?

If so, currently they're not a good idea in 1v1s since it's too easy to disrupt a Missile squad. In team games, when massed (a couple squads should suffice) they can be effective.

With the new patch (1.5) they'll have 33% damage buff boosting damage from ~250/missile to 330/missile, which will allow most vehicles to be destroyed in just two salvos instead of three or four. That'll make Missiles much much more attractive.

[Full_ork]

Yes I ment after the patch.

SMJ has already explained to me the faults in Ml's currently.

BUt would the ML buff make them to strong in team games? Supposedly they are fine in them now.

[choppa1]

The issue with the ork army is that after tier 2.5 they go downhill quickly.

"Considering the amount of Artillary isn't actually even /alot/, I mean, SMs only get their artillary at tier 3"

5+ whirlwinds slaughter an ork army in seconds. Having no vehicles to combat whirlwinds orks are useless against them. (short of any desperate kamakaze base take out)

And if your a remotely decent Ork player, you will have 2-3 trakks to one dreadnought)

Again this does not make sense. Trakks are very effective early, however late tier 2, marines can field 10 dreads. Therefore according to the quote above remotely decent Ork play will need 20 to 30 trakks to take them out. Trakks can dance, but marine troops still pack a punch with missles (which with 50% damage be much more effective at destroying trakks now), melta bombs, other heavy weapons even before marines reach laser preds, whirlwinds and termies. This leaves trakks inneffective going into tier 3 and GG for the ork.

IG Bassis might prove a problem, but with infiltrate, TBs can pop up right next to them.

IG is not a problem for orks, as IG are currently a weaker army at late tier 2 then SM and Eldar and better balanced against orks. Its whirlwinds and fire prisms that kill. Even if 50 TB's are infiltrated (which is hard enough) against 5+ whirlwinds, the TB's pop up and the whirlwinds will kill them in seconds. Whirlwind range is so long that orks get massacred quick as orks need to run all that way to get next to them.

The issue is Orks (well actually all races) should have a unit to combat what any other race can throw against them. This should not matter if the game is standard, quickstart or team games.

CrossOrion I only see you ever argue that the ork race is ok as is (and emotively mind you), where that is clearly not the case? What are your thoughts on the ork race after tier 2.5 going into tier 3?

[CrossOrion]

Read the note below what you have quoted. The key is to get pressure early, and then keep pressure up. 10 dreads is only a problem if you let them get 10 dreads. You can get 6 trakks before they can field out 3 dreads, and quite frankly if you, as an ork player, are willing to let an SM player build up to a force of 10 dreads then you have more problems on your hands then you would care to admit. 10 dreads aren't cheap. Again, Trakks are very effective early

Now, you think Trakks become ineffective with missile marines? What about your Nobs? They sitting there while your trakks get mowed down by missiles and meltas? Adding one thing to the equation without throwing in another thing to the other side of the equation doesn't make for balance. Also missile marines get severely pwned by Bomb chukka trakks.

Also whirlwinds, admittedly, are overpowered. But just because this is overpowered doesn't mean Orks have to be buffed to handle them. They should be nerfed, and in the changelog they are looking at nerfing the whirlwind. Also they are overpowered not because of their range, but because they take too damn long to destroy. An overwhelming force of Trakks should concievably destroy whirlwinds quickly, but this isn't what's happening right now.

what about grenade launcher heavy weapon upgrades in tac squads? Can they be viable AV in t2?

Space Marines don't have grenade launchers in their equipment list. And there's a suggestion box in which the first post of this thread has a linky, in which you are probably better off visiting.


Now, as it stands, the Ork race /is/ okay, every other race is just OPed in one way or another that makes the Ork race look /not/ okay. ^^.

[tl998]

I mean the missile launcher that tac marines already have right now.

[choppa1]

The key is to get pressure early, and then keep pressure up. 10 dreads is only a problem if you let them get 10 dreads

On a larger map spamming dreads is quite easy and with a good marine player he will push his dreads out front while leaving his tacs back to pick off the other units (very simple tactic and trak chuka's short range cant hit the troops behind the dreads, or the trakk that pushes past the dread gets hit by squads of heavy bolters and rockits ). The key is to take out the marine before middle of tier 2, but against a good marine player this may not happen and then hey presto 10 dreads or then your are past middle of tier 2 into 3 and its GG. This leaves a small window of oppurtunity for orks to win (mainly on smaller maps) and IMO I believe the game should not be like that.

An overwhelming force of Trakks should concievably destroy whirlwinds quickly, but this isn't what's happening right now.

Its actually pretty tough to get them past the tacs with heavy weapons and dreads without being nearly dead due to the range of the whirlwinds. And also the whirlwinds do good damage to trakks anyway which will finish the remaining 3 out of the 10 that actually got that far.

Now, as it stands, the Ork race /is/ okay, every other race is just OPed in one way or another that makes the Ork race look /not/ okay. ^^.

Except orcs can't drop dreads, or teleport / drop termies with stun hammers (Big Mek gets only 1 teleport not 2 like all other races) which 1 termie squad can kill a squiggoth or can they orbital bombard to mostly take out an entire base. The can't use artillery to wipe out another races infantry in seconds, nor can they get laser preds to melt vehicles and buildings. Neither do they have kick ass assault troops with melta bombs that combined can nearly take out a HQ. They also dont get apocotharies and chaplain with mega overlapping healing (mad docs just dont compare). Nor can they make 10 dreads as they only get a max of 5 kans.

So I do not know how u can say orks are OK going into tier 3 when they just can't compete. I think you must be having me on!

PS my Nobs never sit still!

[CrossOrion]

Ugh. Your mixing tiers.

Preds are tier 4. Nothing to do with Tier 3. Also on larger maps, Orks actually have an advantage, because they cap faster, they can get more points faster, more req, and thus it begins to snowball on marines if they try to dread spam. I will have at least 3 tankbusta squads before your first dread can come out. Those 3 tankbusta squads can take out a dread one at a time, if behind a wall of nobz dancing your marines.

Assault Marines can take out Avatars, Squigs and Baneblades, Landraiders, and pretty much every other tank and infantry out there.

Whirlwinds can demolish every other race's infantry, not just orks, since they are hard to kill they are harder to stop with a dedicated antitank force. Whirlwinds are just missile launchers mounted on rhinos, which have 500 hp of LIGHT vehicle armor, they currently have 5000 hp mounted on Vehicle medium armor. This has NOTHING to do with Orks being underpowered, but SM being overpowered.

Apocatharies and Chaplain's mega overlapping healing are also part of SM OPness, although to be fair, apocs die pretty fast these days.

OB is getting nerfed, melta bombs have already been nerfed, and yet a good Ork player will never let a marine reach this stage in 1 v 1, and will have allies to back him up in larger games. (Actually Lootas do a very good job in breaking other races' infantry, and if you use your warboss' WAAAGH while attacking a base, buildings go down fast. OB can also be disrupted constantly by missile turrets and lootas)

My point still stand. Orks are fine. Every other race has one or two points (or sometimes the whole bloody race) that make them overpowered. Admittedly Orks could do with a buff here and there, but as a race, they are fun to play and adaptive to use, and as a general whole, don't really require much fixing.

Oh.. and T?

Increased Missile Launcher damage against Vehicle Medium targets from 38% to 50%

Did you even /read/ the Changelog?

[Full_ork]

The only time I can see a whole bunch of Dreads comming out rather quickly is in team games where each player could take like 3 and you end up with a dozen on the field.

[tl998]

I've read the bloody changelog. That tells me nothing about how effective they would be because I'm not really sure how effetive they are currently. Does the 3 volleys changing to 2 volleys really mean they can substitude Dreads for AV in 1.5?

[SNeakY_BuGGeR]

All base structures should increase in hit points and armour type as the game progesses. So the hq ends up with 10,000 hitpoints of landraider armour! Discuss the possibilities!

Look, With the proposed changes to the hit points of whirlwinds. and also the severe nerfing of asm's and healing effect. SM have the most expensive and useless army that there is. FACT!

People whine that SM are overpowered in tier two... so lets all nerf SM healing aura.

This patch will make SM unplayable at tier three, FACT! artillery was a good defense to kasrkins as they out range and out shoot termies and come far quicker too. Now the artillery is a joke and kasrkins get a massive damage boost too! IG will decimate everthing that sm have at tier three easily! with the addition of psycher spells.

Assault termies... Well I am so sick of the site of these OP noob teching drop, own all units. They need a nerf without a doubt.

At the moment it takes three senties three shots each (9 shots in all for the people that find it hard to understand what a volley is) to down a whirlwind. So tier 2 units owns tier three unit in three shots. After patch... LOL! 1.5 volleys bye bye base defenses! With the speed that they have and the kasrkin buff and range advantage SM = useless V IG.

At the moment the IG rush owns SM on small maps in 1v1, slightly better balance early game means that this rush is better balanced. But look at tier two.... ASM's huge nerf, Hellhounds will decimate asm's in tier two. K use rockets! OH look 1 bassilisk! BYE my entire army that cost me a fortune in req compared to your insanely cheap 20req per man dudes.

SM v Chaos, well you had a chance IF you A: killed his buiders with a perfectly executed scout harrass, B: if you got poths and plas to deal with the inevitable serker spammage..
What would people say to scouts at tier one with seargeants and plasma pitols? Especially if to get all of these uber units I did not have to build a gen? They would scream from the rafters IMBA IMBA IMBA!!!!! So just stop with the BS relic and make asp champs cost power too!

Speeders.... Well I state my case now... TOO right I will be spamming 20 of these on the map. Squads cost too much money cannot jump, asm's have been nullified to joke status.
Everything else gets buffs SM tacs are too expensive (Always have been) they should cost 40 req per man and always should have!

IG will absolutely rape SM late game with spells, kasrkins, outranging and outclassing anything that SM has to fight them with.

Eldar: OMG! since day one of the release of this game Eldar have been smiled upon by the relic team. They get teleporting singers. cloaked hidy buildings, fleet of foot. better squads that are purpose built to own, just click and decimate with pre made pre designed fleet of foot ownage tools.
Eldar are the only race that when they lose thier HQ they do not lose their tier level. Just build another soul shrine, happy days spam more tier four prisms to WTFBBQOWNZOR with.
Avatar gives me faster unit production more Uber WTFBBQownsor prisms yummy! morale immunty and damage bonuses too.

Orks ... well they aregreat fun to play with and listen to. To play them well you have to be a very skillful player. I think that the new changes will actually benfit them quite a bit.

I would play random in all my team games if it were not for the fact that Eldar are far too easy to own with. and B: I cannot stand the way that chaos units speak. Cultists drive me insane with their pathetic butt licking. Heretics drive me insane with their pathetic sayings too. I hate playing with them.

[MoschBoy]

omg, this is the worst post i read in a long time... do you play the game actually?

Look, With the proposed changes to the hit points of whirlwinds. and also the severe nerfing of asm's and healing effect. SM have the most expensive and useless army that there is. FACT!

5000 hitpoints for an artillery unit that alwas hits and does incredible damage and takes only few pop is a bit hefty... this is no real NERF, its more a fix.

People whine that SM are overpowered in tier two... so lets all nerf SM healing aura.

and you think that will seriously effect them? maybe you ll have to build the librarian instead of ivan then? but yes, WotE is bloody useless.

This patch will make SM unplayable at tier three, FACT! artillery was a good defense to kasrkins as they out range and out shoot termies and come far quicker too. Now the artillery is a joke and kasrkins get a massive damage boost too! IG will decimate everthing that sm have at tier three easily! with the addition of psycher spells.

karskins do pityful damage to vehicles, so as long as you can keep AV at bay your WW should still wtfpwn enemy infatntry. btw, artillery is more here to disrupt than to actually kill. uups, i forgot WW do no friendly fire atm.

At the moment the IG rush owns SM on small maps in 1v1, slightly better balance early game means that this rush is better balanced. But look at tier two.... ASM's huge nerf, Hellhounds will decimate asm's in tier two. K use rockets! OH look 1 bassilisk! BYE my entire army that cost me a fortune in req compared to your insanely cheap 20req per man dudes.

every race is owned by ig rush (except space elves). and if you still rely on ASM and powersords... well, time to learn something new.

SM v Chaos, well you had a chance IF you A: killed his buiders with a perfectly executed scout harrass, B: if you got poths and plas to deal with the inevitable serker spammage..
What would people say to scouts at tier one with seargeants and plasma pitols? Especially if to get all of these uber units I did not have to build a gen? They would scream from the rafters IMBA IMBA IMBA!!!!! So just stop with the BS relic and make asp champs cost power too!

SM tier 2> chaos tier2, so plasma should own zerkers. yes, ac are too strong, but that will be dealt with.

Speeders.... Well I state my case now... TOO right I will be spamming 20 of these on the map. Squads cost too much money cannot jump, asm's have been nullified to joke status.
Everything else gets buffs SM tacs are too expensive (Always have been) they should cost 40 req per man and always should have!

lol?

sry, but that amount of BS cried for a response.

[SirNick]

Here's a link to the post I made on Page 4 of this thread illustrating what exactly the buffs to Land Speeders and Missile Launchers do.

The gist of the Land Speeder buff is that it's a bump in damage to -one- weapon of two on the Land Speeder, boosting its total damage output by less than the changelog would have you think. The buffs bring the damage output to that of a single Heavy Bolter Marine post-Target Finders, at the LS cost of 100/80 versus the Marine's cost of 90/10. The 10/70 extra cost goes to no setup time, jumping capabilities, and vehicle armor.

I'm going to requote the Missile Launcher paragraph from my original post, just for convenience's sake with regards to the topic at hand:

Base Damage for Missile Launcher: 600-728
Reload Time: 5 seconds
Setup Time: 2.5 seconds
Accuracy: 85%
Damage per Hit with old 38% penetration: 228 - 277
Damage per Hit with new 50% penetration: 300 - 364
Damage Boost Percentage: 31.5% buff

Note: This means that a 5-Missile Marine Squad will now do 1500-1820 damage in a full salvo to vehicle_med. The 85% accuracy means that realistically only 4 out of 5 missiles hit, so that value should be closer to 1200-1456 damage per salvo. This is much better than old values of 1140-1385 damage for 5 missiles, 912-1108 on average.

In Tier 2, IG vehicles have 1500 HP (Chimera), 2200 HP (Hellhound), and 1150 HP (Basilisk). Chaos has 4000 HP (Predator) and 3300 HP (Defiler). Eldar has 1860 HP (Falcon) and 2850 HP (Wraithlord). Orks have 1850 HP (Wartrakk) and 1975 HP (Wartrukk). Space Marines have 4780 HP (Dreadnought) and 3250 HP (Hellfire Dreadnought). The significance of these values is in that one full missile squad can now viably two-shot almost any medium vehicle in Tier 2, or at the very least cripple it enough for ASMs with Meltas or the new Power Fist'd sergeants to finish the job. Before, it would take three full salvos minimum to do the job, which was far too long for the SM.

With regards to Assault Space Marines, keep in mind that the nerfed vehicle and building damage isn't so devastating: those targets are why Melta Bombs exist. Melta Bombs do 800-900 damage to vehicle_med, vehicle_high, and building_med; they do 533-600 damage to vehicle_low, building_low, and building_high; in 1.5 they will do 400-450 damage to building_high. Basilisks will die in two Melta Bombs, guaranteed - 1150HP < 1600-1800 damage in the space of a few seconds. A key aspect to anti-artillery work is that you can see exactly where it is that an artillery piece is firing from - it shows up as a red blip on the minimap. This makes it possible for you to know how to get your ASMs over to the Basilisk and nuke it.

Power Swords should not do such amazing damage to vehicles, and this is why they are being nerfed. Power Fists, however, fill the anti-vehicle damage role. There is a problem, however:

Space Marine Power Fist vehicle damage is bugged severely.

Currently, SM Power Fists do ~40 damage per hit to vehicles, reloading every two seconds. This is absolutely atrocious. The reason that this is so is because in Winter Assault SM Power Fists use the same Power Fist weapons entry as in Dawn of War. In Winter Assault, Chaos got a new Power Fist entry that gave appropriate damage values to vehicles - about 200 damage per hit. Space Marines did not get a new entry, and are instead doing far less vehicle damage than they should.

To be useful, not only do SM Power Fists need their reload dropped to 1 second, but need to have Armor Penetration values versus all vehicle and building types buffed significantly - namely, the same values as Chaos. For the record, that's 100%/100%/8% piercing versus vehicles _low, _med, and _high for Chaos Power Fists; currently for SM it's 27%/21%/8% piercing versus vehicles _low, _med, and _high.

If the Power Fist issue is fixed, then there should be fine times tearing apart vehicles with Sergeant Power Fists at the sweet sound of ~200 damage per hit, reloading in 1 second, much like Power Swords do nowadays.

***

One last thing regarding the healing auras of Apothecaries and the SM Chaplain: only the larger healing auras of these guys were reduced. Apothecaries and the Chaplain have two healing auras, in all actuality. Apothecaries have one aura which affects the squad that they're attached to for 4x healing, and a radius 10 aura that does 4x healing to all within it. The Chaplain's big aura does 4x healing in a range of 25, and has a small aura of radius 10 that does 4x healing, which is the SAME aura as the Apothecary's in the game code. Healing stacks to a maximum of x16 base rate. The reduction of the 10-radius aura to 2x rather than 4x means that a squad with Apothecary only heals 8x, and a Chaplain near a bunch of folks only heals 8x base rate. His 4x heal radius 25 should still be valid; it's just the radius 10 aura which should be changed. It's only now possible to get 16x healing in a squad by combining ATTACHED Apothecaries and the Chaplain. Hope that makes sense. : )

Pardon the amount of numbers; that's what this post is trying to do, put a few numbers on for comparison. The key is that these nerfs and buffs just aren't as dramatic as one would think.

[tl998]

How do you attached two characters to a squad? Is that even possible? If it's not possible, then do you think the nerf is enough?

[Darkstorm]

@tl998: AFAIK, you can't attach more that one unit to a squad. I might be wrong, as I've heard rumors that it can be done in late-game with IG with research.

@SirNick: Wow, my head hurts....too....many....numbers. You've got to be a statistics major with that amount of work. Regardless, gj witht he numbers.

On the subject of Land Speeders: Am I correct in assuming that the SM's Land Speeders have one heavy bolter plus an assault cannon, or is it just 2 heavy bolters? And if it's assault + bolter, which is it that fires on the move and is getting buffed? I'm looking dps numbers, not fluff.

[SNeakY_BuGGeR]

Dear Mosh,
Being arrogant does not help people. Do I play the game? Yes, and I have two 1500 automatch accounts for 1v1.

Do I play non quick start team games? Yes, every day I have about 30 online accounts and 10 automatch accounts too. I am also a very active clan player and have played this game since it was first released.

What I am talking about is fact dude. Obviously you talk from guesswork and mere twaddle.

Fighting against imperial guard at the moment is a knighmare. If you use tacs they get absolutely fraggled by hellhound massing, dreads are good but at 305power each they really hurt your tier advancement and sentinals blast them to shreds in seconds too. The autocannon on dreads is great and does do very good damage but it cost 70 power! Thus dread with auto cannon is the most expensive vehicle in the game.
Other races have the luxury of no power costs for their infantry at all. In comparrisson to every other race SM are power starved in the extreme.

Whirlwinds should be killable and to be honest they already are! Drop dreads on them and assault termies and they drop like flies. Fire prism splat them easily.. lehman russes decimate them and senties splat them very well too. The issues arrise when they are being attacked by tier two infantry units and only infantry units, people whine IMBALANCE! Yes I agree that they should have 3000 hitpoints each. but they are a tier 3 super unit so they should do the job that they are designed to do. With 2500 hitpoints any noob will be able to run senties behind the infantry and pick them off like flies. Which really good players already do do by using the assassin to locate their positon on the map.

With the combination of much stronger kasyrkins more expensive and more power for a much much weaker anti infantry support unit and dreads etc being reduced to infantry armour by spells from IG this patch (as proposed) will just make SM stuc at tier two desperately trying to hold off an ever increasing and stronger Ig mass.

What I would like to know is how come there is very little mention of the hideously over powered and to easy to spam squads that eldar have. You see banshees decimate three armies and bases and survive from tier one to tier three. they are simply unkillable.

with one research (call of war) they are doubled in hitpoints and morale! then add armour research and the get 25% more hitpoints. by the time that Eldar are tier three they get the final armour upgrade and each banshee has 1000 hitpoints! Thus eldar can decimate SM with 5 squads banshees and 4 squads warp siders with vehicle support easily.... Add to that the fact that banshees are 50 req and no power cost yet terminators are 50/25 power and eldar again have a massive advantage.
You do not see reapers massed in team games... So all in all
Post patch Eldar Chaos Ig will all own SM and orks will fight against them better too. :fencing:
The only good buff to SM will be the chepness and fast landspeeders at early tier two and the rest will be a massive uphill struggle......

PS no army anywhere in this game can attach more than one hero per squad!

[SirNick]

On the subject of Land Speeders: Am I correct in assuming that the SM's Land Speeders have one heavy bolter plus an assault cannon, or is it just 2 heavy bolters? And if it's assault + bolter, which is it that fires on the move and is getting buffed? I'm looking dps numbers, not fluff.

Pardon the confusion: The Land Speeder's weapons are one (1) "Storm Bolter" and one (1) "Assault Cannon." Despite the name, they are different weapons than the Storm Bolters and Assault Cannons of Terminators, for instance. The "Heavy Bolter" comment I make reference to is that the -combined- DPS of the Storm Bolter and Assault Cannon on the Land Speeder is roughly equivalent to a Tactical Marine Heavy Bolter after Target Finders are researched. Tactical Heavy Bolters do ~60-70 DPS post-Finders; 40-55 DPS pre-Finders; Land Speeders do ~62 DPS (both weapons combined) right off of the bat, can jump, and don't have to set up / can't be disrupted. It's the Assault Cannon that's being buffed; check the post I made a link to in my last post as I mentioned for a longer, more numbers-heavy rundown on Land Speeder damage.

The only thing about the Land Speeder weapons is that the Storm Bolter's got 25 range compared to the Assault Cannon's 30, so you'll not want your Land Speeder to fire at maximum range - you'll have to close in slightly to get full DPS.

Yeah, there's a lot of numbers involved with Dawn of War. It's a shame, but understanding them helps tons in gauging a bit better how much force you'll need to throw at an enemy.

Oh, and with regards to the two hero attachment thing, I'm not sure where this is coming from. If it's from the overlapping healing auras thing, I mention attachment that's because the Apothecary has a aura which targets just the squad he's attached to, in addition to the area-effect healing aura. The Chaplain cannot be attached to a squad; his two auras are area-effect auras, one with 10 range and one with 25 range. The nerf should make the imbalanced 16x healing less prevalent and replace it instead with x4 and x8 healing, which is still quite imposing and extends longetevity greatly.

[MoschBoy]

1500 acc or not, pro player or not (i dont consider myself anywhere near pro, even thoug i have a 1475 orc acc and a 1500 SM acc), the proposed 1.5 changes are not even near making SM uncompetive.

I stopped playing WA 1 month ago (doing vanills since then), because its just a bad joke how deadly broken the game balance is atm - not only with SM. IF you have the feeling WW NEED 5000 HP to make SM be competive, or that plasma/HB/termies and WotE are no good relieable and good tier2/3 combination (not even mentioning OR and deepstriking), then so be it. its not my experience, and its not the experience of the ppl i watch in replays.

yes, some matchups are a nightmare, but this is because of broken game design and imbas, and it doesnt justify any jokes like 5000 HP artillery.

[Full_ork]

Fire prism splat them easily..

Fire prisom's right now are oped, to say something is balanced you don't use an oped example.

That's like when in 1,3 eldar players said "Defilers aren't oped, eldar can handle them".

[SpaceMarineJoe]

I agree with the SM changes and they are highly needed. The IG rush IS being nerfed with a nerf to commies immune to morale, no bugged armour(reduces effectiveness of healing), long build time for IG(?) and longer build time for the building as well as a cost increase for the building(I think). GLs getting a 1 second setup time too.

You are thinkin about the current state of other races compared to the future SM nerfs which is a horrible way of lookin at things. Mosch is mostly rite and if you played team games with me and my friends you would easily see what is imbalanced and not. Playing with noobs(sorry but you are infamous for noob bashing from anyone who has played with you and when I played with you you kicked people with decent scores and always stacked teams), will not teach you anything about imbalances.

As an SM player in my 4v4s I never A)ASM spam in tier 2 B)Never WW spam(past 3 in one location).

In the time it takes for 3 dreads to kill a WW, a WW can kill about 70% of two kasrkin squads easily and also you are naming an SM solution to an SM problem... KANz, WLs, sents and defilers have no way of just landing rite beside a WW and even for SM you need to remove FoW first and you can t just ignore the wall of stunnign ATs infront of you.

Where the hell did you get this 3 shots kills a WW thing from the sents? They do like 137 DPSx3 for reload that means 400 dmg every 3 seconds and thats over 12 shots to kill a WW... Thats also 36 seconds, where on the other hand it takes a chap 10 secodns to kill a sentinal or an ML squad to kill one in about 7 not to mention sentinals for cost are WTFPWNED by WWs.

So I can drop like 3 dreads who each cost more than the WW to counter it? That doesn t sound effective to begin with...

You are seriously biased about SM. I am an SM fanatic more than anyone and if you had a good point in there I would have magnified it. The only thing you got rite is that ATs are OPed but thats about it.

ASMs are retarded in real team games, and so are WWs who cannot be countered for cost short of prism spam or tier 4 tank spams. Even at 2500 HP, with no friendly fire and auto targeting + no limit to there numbers they can easily still be just as OPed. I have used WWs and seen them used enough to tell you that 3 of them will destroy and entire kasrkin army before you can even get most AV counter TO the WW and they completely annihilates any kind of infantry before they can be properly countered especially for the tier in which they come out at where most effective AV counters are through infantry.

I don t think mosch is being cocky but your attitude in your post + the misinformation/utter exagerations and one sided views without factoring nerfs from the other races(like reapers and FS getting nerfs as well as the entire IG tier 1, shootas, and hopefully soon to be included, the chaos PS) is just one of those "where do I begin" moments...

[SNeakY_BuGGeR]

3000 hit points nuff said...

As regards your unadulterated list of undisputed drivvle about noob bashing etc.... ROFLMAO

Also It takes three senties three shots each to kill one whirlwind now! READ WHAT is written..
Also SM JOE who the hell are you?

I have never played with you in any team game ever! The last time I hosted a team game would have been about two years ago too.. Do me a favour and stop talking 100% BS to people about someone that you do not know.

P.S. 20.12 posts per day on this forum says it all.....

P.P.S. Sir Nick thanks for a very informative post :clap: