[Strat] DE? Good I hear you say?

[Talar]

I just read a post by MooFreaky on how comprehensively a DE army can crush a SM force in CC.

Now I have tried DE before, I think I got to a 1850pt force before i gave up on them, this was around the same time that my friend got his Tau army together when they were released. I then collected Space Wolves then moved Chaos (where I won too much) and then to Ulthwé where i have stayed ever since.

I have been told that a local GW staff member is really good with his DE. So my question is this. How can you make DE work? I know it is a highly advanced army to use in terms of tactics, timing and application of force, its just i have never seen it with my own eyes.

Is there anyone out there who has been pwn3d by a pro DE player? Or have you led the Dark Kin to victory after victory? And (more importantly) how?

[hokage]

speed and agonisers.

I haven't played warhammer 40k in a while so I'm not sure how competitive DE is nowadays.

but speed and agonisers are your #1 weapon.

an archon with shadow field, combat drugs, agoniser, retinue of incubi and riding a raider will create havoc when they come into cc with an opppenent.

I once wiped out and entire squad of termies in 1 turn (very good dice rolls)
and an archon can stand toe to toe (if not better) against monsters and ic.

[Jinpachi]

dark lances are a bitch too

[TwistedDarkness]

I've heard that there are two ways to play DE.
Shooty goodness-Lots of dark lances, etc.
Wych Cult- Close combat monstrosities.

[Open Blue]

I have a friend who uses a CC DE army and every time manages to kill everything, except the seer council. I can't recall what he uses, but he does use Dark lances and those jump-troop-thingy

[bebe]

Playing a simple wyche cult list you can use 2 elite choices of warriors w/2 dark lance each and wwps (10 each), 3 wyche squads w/raiders and dls and agonisers( 8 each), jetbike squad w/ blasters and pw or agoniser( six) and 2 ravs w/ dissies. My wife plays this list. You have plenty of dls and you have plenty of cc goodness w/ 4 agonisers in the list and an archite w/ punisher and board and goodies. It comes to just 1500 points.
so
seven dark lances
four agonisers
one punisher
three dissies each on the ravs
53 models
Now you need to be careful w/ the warrior and make sure you drop a portal as they are a bit small at 1500 points - at more points you can pump up the squads a bit. You have to get wyches into cc asap. You drop those portals as fast as possible and sit back w/ the warrio0rs as supporting fire for your force. The bikes can go hunt tanks or characters. The archite on a board is fast and the shadowfield makes him a bit more survivable - he just joins the squad that needs his help most. Bear in mind that your vehicles are fragile - you lose when they get destroyed before you disembark your load. Terrain and multiple targets are a must.
Do notice that I eschew grots, hellions, scourges and warp beasts. Not they are bad but this army was built to be competitive without stinking like limburger. It fares best against meqs but will take on Nids and other Eldar. Necrons need to played with a solid tacticsa in mind - wbb rolls and liths suck - I once fired all game at a lith w/ my DLs and did nada. Learn ther Nec rules though and take advantage of its weaknesses by trying to deny the rolls. Know that a Lith cannot teleport and use its whip same turn. Tau can be a bit tricky too - hate those stealth suits but again know your enemy.

SPEED
This list is fast - not quite raider rucsh fast but by turn two you are charging.
DARK LANCES
AP2 yahoo - this is the closest to fromage that DE get
CC
Wyches on the charge are as good as it gets. I would even charge berserkers or stealers if necessary - after softening them up a bit. Jetbikes can tankhunt or cgharge small squads or join ther wyches to double team.

No army is without its stregths and weaknesses - DE can be formidable but the learning curve is steep.

[MooFreaky]

Playing a simple wyche cult list you can use 2 elite choices of warriors w/2 dark lance each and wwps (10 each), 3 wyche squads w/raiders and dls and agonisers( 8 each), jetbike squad w/ blasters and pw or agoniser( six) and 2 ravs w/ dissies. My wife plays this list. You have plenty of dls and you have plenty of cc goodness w/ 4 agonisers in the list and an archite w/ punisher and board and goodies. It comes to just 1500 points.
so
seven dark lances
four agonisers
one punisher
three dissies each on the ravs
53 models

I'm sorry, but that is a terrible DE list.

It's a mix and match of about 3 or 4 different tactics and that is BAD. DE can't afford to be mixed and matched up. THe units need to support eachother well. And WWP with Bikes don't match up.
WWP with Ravagers don't match up. Many DE veterans will tell you not to touch Ravagers any more. They simply don't hold up under the new rules.

The only place many DE players will go with them is in a Jetbike army. As with the number of Jetbikes and Raiders their survivability will the relatively good.

In a Raider army, they are not bad. However it's generally more important to have bodies on the ground rather than in the sky.

In a WWP you must NEVER touch them. They are sitting ducks, that cost a packet, that will crash when they are glared at in a nasty way.

53 models is also running very low. Even for a Wych army. DE are not an Elite army, but they aern't a horde army either. 53 models is too few to be effective against anything but MEQ. And even then, it's no guarantee.

And having both protal on warriors is crazy. Always ALWAYS have a WWP on a Haemonculus. As they are so much more survivable.



Every unit in the DE codex is exceptional. They are all great in their own right. However, many of them don't work well in conjunction with eachother. It's all about getting the unit mix right. This is something that is hard to teach. It comes with experience and a basic underlying understanding of both 40k and general strategy games.

Don't touch a Wych army until you've learned to Kabal. Wyches are a great unit. However, they will bring the number of bodies down considerably, and you don't want that.

Warriors are your friend. You will find people tell you about Wyches and the other Elite choices. Ignore them. Warriors are one of the best units in the game. They are cheap, have Marine level BS and WS, and better I.
THey carry a great array of weapons and they have Sybarites with Agonisers.
Don't leave home without a number of these guys. My DE carriers around 40 and they are MEAN.

If you are looking for a fun army that is moderatley competitive, Wyches Cults are good.
If you are looking for an army capable of crushing everything beneath its heal (even those high end tournament, power cheese armies...) go with a Kabal.


First things first, however. If you are going to play DE you need to pick a basic army type.
Fast - This is a Jetbike heavy army. You won't have many models, but you will have unmatched maneuverability.
Ravagers and Raiders will also be key in this force.
Marines, Chaos, Necrons will bow before you as you slaughter their forces.
However, Eldar and Tau will give you a bit more trouble.
While Orks, Nids and IG will eat you alive.

Raider Armies
You will have as many raiders as you can cram into an army in this list. 10 is good.
Anything less and you will be in trouble. Raiders go down easy, but if yuo can saturate your opponent with targets you will do fine.
Many players will tell you to use the rules to your advantage. Don't tell your opponent what is in which raider. THus he can't just shoot down your Wyches first. To do this, just mark the Raiders on the bottom and have it correspond on your list. So they know you're not cheating.
This is nowhere near as effective as it used to be, but it's still valid.

Web Way Armies
The new mean.
This took over from the Raider Rush under v4. It's fast, it's flexible and it's fucking deadly.
Used right there are few armies that will stand in your way.
It takes ALOT more of a tactical mindset than the others. And you will find that you will either win by a long way or be slaughtered mercilessly (that is the basic element of all DE forces... but this style is particularly unforgiving).
It's by far the most effective way of making a Tournie DE army, and it is more than capable of taking on everything from Marines to Tyranids.
While Jetbikes almost guarantee victory agaisnt MEQ, this army doesn't. Yoy SHOULD crush them still, but if you make a mistake with this force they will be the ones eating you alive.

Wyches
A clever idea. But it has only a few of the strengths of a DE list, and many more weaknesses. They really aren't going to be massively competitive except against MEQ. Even that's not overly guaranteed.
Wyches are a specialist unit. They are awesome at what they do. But basing an entire army around them? Not solid tactially.

EDIT : Important Note

Vehicles are generally not worth targeting unless there really is nothing else to shoot.
You are a fast moving CC army. It's very rare a vehicle will be able to do any damage to you, so why spend time worring about them?

Big Example. Necrons Monolith. The number of shots required, statistically, to take this thing down is horrendous. Someone worked it out once, and it's massive.
Never shoot it, unless there is absolutely nothing else to shoot. It's better to kill off those Necron warriors or pick out some of the bigger Necrons, rather than target something that won't do shit to you.

Same goes for Predators and Leman Russ. While you have much more chance of getting these, they really aren't going to hurt you much. Ignore them, and hit them only after all your infantry are engaged and no other juicy targets present themselves.

Vehicles are the least of your worries.

[StoneRhino]

I have very little respect for most DE armies. I have lost to a few but in the same breath I have made to many people quit early in the games. The effecticeness of the army is more dependant on the player, situation and luck then any strenths in itself. A few years back a DE player either won Best Gereral or Overall in a GT. His army was painted Bleached Bone and was very heavy on Raiders.

[Talar]

I'm sorry, but that is a terrible DE list.

Ha! Then mine was truly abysmal in the day. It was even more varied and had even more strategies on the go at once. Out of interest MooFreaky, what would be an example of your favoured list at say, 1500pts?

[MooFreaky]

The effecticeness of the army is more dependant on the player, situation and luck then any strenths in itself

Bullshit.
Rhino it's that attitude that really shits me. DE are an extremely dangerous army. Just because you haven't faught one doesn't mean you can write them off so easily.
I have never fought a SoB army, but I know they are good.
I've never lost to Tyranids... They must be shit too.
Marines, Orks (both KoS and normal), IG, Eldar, Tau, Kroot Mercs, Chaos... they are such shit armies.
I don't believe anyone should have respect for them, simply because I've never lost to them.

Such a strong argument...

My favoured list at 1,500?
WWP kabal. No incubi, 2 squads of Wyches, sqauds of Warp Beasts, 4 or 5 squads of Warriors, a couple Talos, a couple Raiders.
Simply and brutally effective. It's flexible so can deal with Elites or Hordes. It's designed to be able to fight any force.
It's got good numbers and good firepower, as well as alot of CC punch.


EDIT : Also Raider forces used to be very powerful, under v3 of the rules. Not so under the 4th.

[Popsumpot]

I can tell you, tactics to effectivly kill a seasoned DE player is completely different from a MEQ point of view. I can tell you right now that i got my ass whooped completely by both jet bike armies and WWP armies. Jet Bikes did alot more to me than WWP armies, and the only damage i delt to the Jet Bikes was with Drop Pod squads.

You find WWP armies are superior to Raider armies. The WWP army have the special charactristic that over three quaters of your armies hit the table at the same time and the same spot. As long as you get your portal down on turn 3 exactly (don't put it down on turn 2, i learned it the hard way), you would find you would wipe clean the immediate vacinity. The only problem is getting from your first combat into another combat, in which you would get shot up. This is why you put 3 or 4 raiders in your army, so your warriors and Talos deal with your immediate preimitre, while your Raiders strike the outside, blocking LOS to offer your warriors some protection when they come out.

Stone Rhino, you would do well if you respect every single army, even Daemon Hunters.

[MooFreaky]

As long as you get your portal down on turn 3 exactly (don't put it down on turn 2, i learned it the hard way),

While I agree with everything else you've said, just a note here.
You actually lay it turn 2. Because nothing can come through on the turn that it's first put down.
So lay it on 2, everything comes through on turn 3.

The only other note is that if you have 2 portals, (which in 1,500 you definately should!) you can lay one on easch side of the enemy. This means that the enemy have no idea where you are going to be actually hitting.

It also means, that once you know your units and capabilities, it is possible to send part of a force through 1 and the rest through the other. If done wrong this is a disaster. Done right and it's a slaughter.

And Pop is dead on about Raiders. You need a raider or 2 in a WWP army. They cruise through the portal, hit the targets furthest away while everything else hits closer to home. Alternatively, if fighting a Guard army and you are forced to lay a portal further away than you would have liked then you can hit them with a Raider army, block LoS and then march the rest of your force through behind that LoS "wall" you are provided

[Warlawk]

Since when did the rules change again allowing raiders (a skimmer) to block LoS? Perhaps I misunderstood both of the last two posters in thier intent... but it seems to say they are using raiders to block LoS, which doesn't work.

[MooFreaky]

No. You are using raiders to transport a unit quickly forward, ahead of your forces. They get into CC, and that CC blocks LoS.

[Wulfen Brother]

I disagree with you Moo Freaky. In YOUR OPINION the list is terrible, though if it wins the battle then it has achieved what it was picked to do.
You can win with a wide assortment of varied lists as long as you apply them to the task at hand correctly. Deployment, movement and the luck of the dice win you battles. Granted a well picked army will help, though I believe that the list presented by Bebe was ok.
The favoured tactic today seems to be large warrior squads with splinter cannons and ICs with portals, backed up with the old 100pt 10 warrior inc 2 d-lance squads with some Wyches for cc nastiness.

[bebe]

I know the list is okay because my wife uses it regularly and wins with it. Like most DE lists you need to learn how to effectively use it. Learning curves are a steep. I personally hate ravangers unless I'm playing at 1850 and up. I think they are a point sink. However, raiders coming out the portal are quite strong. My wife uses the one jetbike squad as a distraction and sometimes to do a little tank hunting. Once the wyches come out the portal on raiders the battle is fast and furious. Supported by some warp beasts they will chew through hooty armies and hold their own against cc armies.
Let's agree to disagree. I think you can base an army on wyches and I've seen it work.

[peturabo]

Show me a good Dark Eldar army list, the theory is nice though.

[StoneRhino]

The DE are a really good story line army. But the army is weak and plays even worse.

The main weakness of this force is it's lack of staying power. It hits very hard but if it can not break the enemy then it dies off. Also if you cripple the first assult and sieze the iniative most players will realise the game is over and throw in the towle. Standred Eldar can do almost everything DE can do and bring strong defensive units.

There really is no point of argueing any off this. Soon the Dark Eldar will join the Squats as another failed army.

[Waterbizkit]

There really is no point of argueing any off this. Soon the Dark Eldar will join the Squats as another failed army.

And that genius theory is based on what exactly? And don't come back spouting off at the mouth about them being a "weak" army or "unpopular", give me some real proof to back up the claim. If you can't then hows about shutting it and leaving that kind of crap to the people who have the ability to make those calls, i.e. those at Games Workshop.

Ignorant.

~Bizkit

[Popsumpot]

The main weakness of this force is it's lack of staying power. It hits very hard but if it can not break the enemy then it dies off. Also if you cripple the first assult and sieze the iniative most players will realise the game is over and throw in the towle. Standred Eldar can do almost everything DE can do and bring strong defensive units.

How the hell can you cripple the first assualt when the whole army but 11 to 21 models are not on the board? They can hit any unit on the board without much difficulty. Can the standard eldar troop cripple the entire enemy unit with one combat phase? Can they move with the fastest speed available on 40k? Can they dismount, fleet, charge all in one turn? Do they have the highest initiative of any standard troop?

How can you seize the intiative when they out manuver you many-folds? How can you cripple their first assault when they get into assault before you can manuver your units to cover those units? Fire lanes means nothing to them because they got their best units in skimmers, Even if you do kill all their WWP carriers, as lone as they moved for one turn, nearly all of their units are in range to carge. Even if you have some combat troops under command, how do you repel them when they tear you apart before you can strike?

They are certainly not invincible, but against players with attitude like yours, than it's almost 100% win rate.

[Ap0k]

But the army is weak and plays even worse.

I want to be a fly on the wall when a good DE player butchers you on turn 1.

They are a finesse army. Probably the army in the game that requires the most finesse. Possibly only nearing harlies as far as finesse goes.

They play completely different to eldar, since they are capable of much more speed, and with open topped vehicles, they are in combat a turn earlier. No other army in the game has units capable of a 32" charge range (raider + disembark + fleet + combat drugs). Combine that with Jetbike close combat monsters running power weapons that wound everything on a 4+ and have a 2+ invulnerable save, protected by IC status.

They have some problems if their alpha strike fails, since they can have trouble pressing the advantage if they lose too many models, or find themselves isolated early, and thats why the webway list was designed. Why alpha strike in turn 1, only to have the momentum peter off in turn 4, when you can alpha strike in turn 3 with enough momentum to see you through the last 3 turns of the game.

Seriously, if you have no idea what you're talking about, the best plan is to just not talk about it.

[MooFreaky]

But the army is weak and plays even worse.

wow... there's an educated man's opinion...
you obviously have never come across a good DE player. One who would belt that smug look off your face repeatedly... game after game.

I disagree with you Moo Freaky. In YOUR OPINION the list is terrible, though if it wins the battle then it has achieved what it was picked to do.
You can win with a wide assortment of varied lists as long as you apply them to the task at hand correctly. Deployment, movement and the luck of the dice win you battles. Granted a well picked army will help, though I believe that the list presented by Bebe was ok.

The thing with DE is that you can't just be good at everything. You need to pick one of about 3 or 4 tactics and hit it hard. If you start mixing them, you start losing the strength of one tactic, while gaining the weaknesses of another.

Example... mix WWP and bikes. You are losing the mobility of a pure bike army. You are losing the model count of a WWP army. You are losing the punch of a WWP army.
All you accomplish, is dropping the number of bodies considerably.

Example 2... maxing Ravagers and WWP.
Ravagers will need to start on the board if they have any hope of doing anything. This means the enemy will shoot them down straight away. There simply aren't enough targets to saturate your opponent with. It also means that for the first couple turns there is almost nothing on the board, and so he can just focus on getting the ravagers. And when a Bolter can knock one out of the sky it doesn't take long. You may get 1 turn of shooting.

The other question is why? Why have ravagers in a WWP army? What role do they fill? None.
Tank hunters? Raiders and a Warrior Firebase will cover this. Plus you can ignore tanks in a WWP army, they can't you in CC.
Termies, Marines etc are all better killed in CC. And are more surivivable.
The 2 tactics are just mutually exclusive.


Bike are actually a rubbish unit unless used in numbers. So having a single squad is a waste. As they are crap in prolonged CC for their cost. So you need enough to hit and hit hard.
The strength of the bike comes in a bike heavy army, where redeploying on turn 1 to simply outmaneuver your enemy is an awesome tactic. But you won't have that advantage in a WWP army.
So yes, IMO it is a poor list. Try posting it on a DE forum and I can guarantee you it would be ripped apart by other Tournie DE players.


As for large squads of DE with Cannons and Blasters, that is incorrect too. The best DE armies will operate with a number of minimum sized squads. 10 Warriors, 2 Cannons, 2 Blasters and a Sybarite w/ Agoniser. Why? Because the 9 other warriors are just there to soak up wounds to allow the special weapons to fire up close and then die to protect the Sybarite in CC, while adding a little extra punch themselves.

And the 100 point, DL squads are a must have in any list. THey are the fire base that you can rely on.


And I agre you can make an army around a Wych cult. But not a Tournament Grade army that will do much.

[HopkinsWFG]

There really is no point of argueing any off this. Soon the Dark Eldar will join the Squats as another failed army.

I see your "failed army" and raise you a new codex next year.

[StoneRhino]

Moofreaky - I have played against some very good DE players and yes I have even lost to them. But even these "Really good" DE players would agree with me that if you make a mistake or have a really bad turn or 2 there is not much to fall back on. This goes back to my first post that the strenths of this army are dependant on the player, situation and luck.

popsumpot - What do you do when your 20 models die and your enemy parks a few tanks all around your WWPs? Or just Tank shocks threw them. Leaving you nowhere to deploy. You can't assault out of them. This is actualy easier then it sounds and the closer you try to deploy it the easier it becomes. I'm not trying to say that having a huge chunk of your army arrive on turn 3 is bad. It's just not a guarented win.

I do respect some DE players but not the army. It can win IF played by a good DE player, They can take advantage of deployment or movement inclueding WWP and they have a little luck on their side. I don't mean to affend anyone but the bigger the game you play the more and more you can exploite it's weaknessess.

[MooFreaky]

But even these "Really good" DE players would agree with me that if you make a mistake or have a really bad turn or 2 there is not much to fall back on.

Same goes for many armies.
No one is disagreeing with this fact. But just beause they actually take talent to use doesn't make them a bad army.
So you're basically saying that the only army that is good, is one where you can be a complete git of a general, but not be punished for fucking up?
That makes no sense. It just means you need to be good at what you do.
And a good DE player is going to be one of the most feared players at any Tournament or gaming event.

What do you do when 20 models die and your enemy parks a few tanks all around your WWPs? Or just Tank shocks threw them. Leaving you nowhere to deploy

If you are doing this, then you really haven't fought a good DE player.
Just the fact that you bring this up makes me see that you've never fought a half decent DE player. They will ALWAYS have 2, or even 3 portals. There is no way you will be able to close down both portals against a good DE player.

The last Eldar player I saw attempt this (DE deploying to encourage an attempt to close down the portal) got massicred mercilessly. And that guy had 7 tanks in his army. It was a brutalising on a level you rarely see. By trying to close down the portal, he was left open to a counter attack that was devastating.

If the enemy has alot of fast tanks then you may be forced to deploy a portal on turn 1... it's not ideal but meh. Shit happens. An army with only a couple Tanks is not a threat. Deploy an extra warrior squad or 2 (with blasters) on the board at the start. Giving you more than enough heavy firepower to bring down a couple Tanks. Or at least stop them from moving to the portal.

Just because you are being ignorant doesn't mean an army is crap.

EDIT : The bigger the game the more you can exploit weaknesses?! WTF?! Seriously dude, you have no idea.
The bigger the game, the scarier DE can become. More portals and more Raiders = less weakness as you have less idea where the force will come through.

The weaknesses you describe are only ones of a poor DE player.
And by your reasoning Marines are crap. As most Marine players aren't very good (mostly because there re alot of begginers using them).
The army is exceptional, it just needs to be used in the right hands.

A crap player cannot use DE, true. But that doesn't mean the list is crap. Just advanced.

DOUBLE POST :

They can take advantage of deployment or movement inclueding

That is what DE is about.
you make it sound like that's not part of the game. Just because they use another part of the game, unlike Marines or somesuch, doesn't make them a bad army. You just need to actually understadn them.
Luck has little to do with it. Definately no more than any other army.

[StoneRhino]

Try putting 3000 pts of DE against 3000 pts of Eldar or Tau. really or any other army for that matter. Unless you are playing on a really big board or one choked with terrain you will not be able to withstand the amount of fire comming your way. Stick to games 1500 pts or less because the more you have the more an enemy has and the fewer places you have to hide.

There are a few select players out there that play DE very well. I can agree with this but your average DE player is not one of them. You can not base the strenth of an army off of it's elite players. You base it off of the average players. The average person who plays DE is not a real threat to more skilled players. From the passion some people are posting with makes me believe, they are some of those select few and I would love to play them. Not in the "So I can destory them" kind of way. Win or lose you would not change my mind on the overall weakness of the army.

The way I know that the Dark Eldar will join my Squats as a failed army is simple. Games Workshop is a buisness. They need to make money to continue to supply us with rule revamps and new models. If the DE get another codex and it does not show signifigant improvement in sales they will be drop. Get used to pointing them up as cool looking Eldar. My Squats make cool looking Speed Freaks.

[MooFreaky]

The average person who plays DE is not a real threat to more skilled players

What is your point? The average Space Marine is no real threat to a more skilled player of another army.
It's the same for any army. A very skilled player will push aside any average player.

The DE aren't aimed at the average player. They are a force designed to be played by a finess player. They are an army aimed at the experienced veterans, who love that style of play.

An elite DE player will match up to an Elite player of any other army any day. But at the lower rungs, gaps may become more evident. But so what? That's to be expected of such an army. That's what makes them so unqiue and so strong in the right hands. There is no army that plays anything like them.

Try putting 3000 pts of DE against 3000 pts of Eldar or Tau. really or any other army for that matter. Unless you are playing on a really big board or one choked with terrain you will not be able to withstand the amount of fire comming your way.

How? That's a load of crap. As the DE will also have more troops, so it will be the same effect. The more points there are, the more Portals you have and the more troops you have. In 3,000 points you have more warriors start on the field (it doesn't need to be 3 times the amount, as in bigger games the average cost per unit goes up, as the big weapons start rolling out).
So it's exactly the same as in the lower levels.

I've played 4,000 points against Guard. If you can withstand the firepower that a 4,000 point Infantry Heavy guard army can throw at you, you can surive anything.

And DE will not be dropped. GW has openly stated this. They have also got a much larger contingent of fans than the Squats did. Plus there are very few fans who dislike the DE, most have a soft spot for them and barely anyone would begrudge the DE a new Codex before they got one.

Plus GW has been upping the exposure of DE. They've been in 2 or 3 White Dwarf battle reports and had a DE Tactics Guide in one too.

I don't think you should start trying to pass off "facts" without any form of evidence.

[bebe]

maxing Ravagers and WWP.
I agree- I do not like ravs in WWP lists. Howevr, my wifedoes and plays them to perfection keeping them way from HWs. Dissies are jus plain good.

mix WWP and bikes
A squad of bikes fits seamlessly in WWp lists. Just take six without a succubus and few blasters and go hunting with them or join assaults -

So yes, IMO it is a poor list. Try posting it on a DE forum and I can guarantee you it would be ripped apart by other Tournie DE players.

Her tournament list has no ravs and has been posted on de sites. It got good reviews.

HQ: 160
Archite with punisher, combat drugs,
shadow field, tormenter helm, and Hellion Skyboard


Elite: 398
2x 15 Warriors 2 Dark Lance
Sybarite, WWP, Splinter Rifle


Troops: 750
*3x 7 wyches plasma grenades wyche weapons
succubus, agoniser
raider/darklance/horrorfex



*2x warp beast
beastmasteragoniser


Fast Attack: 170
5 Jetbikes, 2 blasters


1498

Finally, no wyches probaly wil not win a GT - bt they are competitive and playable

[Popsumpot]

Mate, an Archon/Archite are one of the softest HQ in the game, you can’t afford putting a 160 point character up like that. Also, the whole point of jet bikes are succubus! 2 blasters and a Succubus with an agoniser is a Marine’s worest nightmare, but without the agoniser, the Bikes won’t have the hitting power needed to bust through MEQs they are designed to kill. You model count is so low it’s not funny. 60 models won’t stand a chance if the enemy happens to get a rapid firing round on you. Raiders are best off without any upgrades, and warp beasts don’t belong, you would be much better off with some more warrirors or wyches.

Why is your Archite starting off on the board? Doesn’t it make sense to stick her one of the raiders? You got 31 models on the first turn, with 30 of them warriors, a lot of firepower are been diverted to the jet bikes. Jet bikes aren’t designed to be used by them selves. They are meant to be a hit and run unit, and can’t stand any attention. When you deploy them in a WWP deployment, you are exposing them to the kind of exposure they won’t survive, and the enemy can just systematically wipe them out and reduce your warrior squads and brace for your charge come on turn 3.

You need to drop all unnecessary things and up your model count. Dropping the bikes would go a long way, and maybe you can replace your warp beasts with a Talos for some hitting tough targets, or armour for their VPs.

By the way, try running your post through Word or a spell checker, and no need to press enter so many times.

[StoneRhino]

By you own admission to make DE a good army. You have to concentraite on one area of the army and max it out. Taking a mix just weakens the over all list. Then you have to gear up for this one knockout hit.

You may consider a one dimentional army thats only good for one big hard hit, a strong army. I don't. Can it win .....Yes. Just as easily as it can find itself over stretched, isolated and crippled.

Reguardless of what GW says. DE staying in production is totaly dependant on it's ability to produce profits. And not to bad mouth GW but if you where in charge maintaining sales of certain armies would you say "Ya, we're probly not going to put out anything else on this army. but you should buy it anyways".

[bebe]

Again I politely disagree. But that's okay. Some like to min/max and pare the list down to essentials - just warriors and wyches and a cheap hq. I'm not fond of that approach although I've seen it used successfully.

Let's go point for point
Sixty models at 1500 points does just fine. You really have very little fluff on that list.

Archite/Archon
Why would this guy fight alone? Yes he starts with ther raiders. He is used to assist assaults. He is a bit pricey but he is also godly in cc and difficult to take down with his upgrades when he joins the raider squads.

Jetbikes
Succubus is the one upgrade to a lone bike squad i do not want and especoially one with an agoniser. I would sooner use a power weapon on the succubus if I took one but usually just want the extra bike for a meatshield. We obviously use them differently. Mine are a distarction and reinforcement for the raiders and they start on the table in cover after turboboosting. Now I'm not against more warriors in their place. It is certainly an option to field ten with a couple of dark lances foir some support. There arer pros and cons to both approaches.

Warp beasts
I agree they are hit and miss. But they are fast and a talos is not. I like them supporting my raiders

Raiders
They only have one upgrade - horrorfex. Do you seriously think a horrorfex is not the most useful upgrade they can have? Every time I have gone without them I haver regretted the decision.

By you own admission to make DE a good army. You have to concentraite on one area of the army and max it out. Taking a mix just weakens the over all list. Then you have to gear up for this one knockout hit.

By anyone's criteria we know that mion/maxing is the power gamers territory hence the large seer councils, the Zilla lists, the Siren bombs, etc. Obviously min/,maxing a DE list will optimise it but that does not mean you have to play them that way. They are a fast competitve army played without those tricks as well.

By the way, try running your post through Word or a spell checker, and no need to press enter so many times.

I like that comment best, LoL Maybe I should have majored in English and not math at university. When all else fails ...

[MooFreaky]

By you own admission to make DE a good army. You have to concentraite on one area of the army and max it out. Taking a mix just weakens the over all list. Then you have to gear up for this one knockout hit.

You REALLY misunderstand.
I'm saying that you pick a style of play and go with it.

That's like a shooty force picks shooty units. A CC force picks CC units. A Shooty force that mixes shooty and CC will get mauled.
If you are going for a rounded list, you don't just mix the two together. You have to make a 3rd, very different list.

DE are no different. You have a portal army, a jetbike army or a raider army. They aern't one hit wonders. They are just styles of play.

Same way Orks have Horde, Armoured or Wheelz.
or Marines with Shooty, CC or mixed... It's just a style of play. There are many different ways of doing each, but you just don't mix the tactics together.
Like any army in existence.

Stop trying to make a pointless argument, on a topic you have no idea of. You're just irritating people and showing your own lack of knowledge of not only the DE but the 40k game in general.

[DemonKnight]

Getting back to Talar question

I have played many De players/De variants and I have never lost. They have never been close to defeating me with my SM, Necrons, or Blood Angels. They’re shooting isn’t great and their CC relies on totally their HQ. Their raider rush is their best variant I’ve seen played and I still laugh at it. Which is a 1 dimensional army and easy to defeat…. wow 32 inch charge?? Hmm ok I position my army in cover. HQ eats one of my units their will be 2 more waiting to rapid fire into it. This army needs first turn more than any other ive seen it’s pretty sad.

I agree with Stonerhino GW isn’t going to say an army sucks that would be bad business. I also agree they have no stay power after their hq is gone or disabled what’s to worry about?

My advice save your money and buy an Eldar army and paint them with dark colors and call them Dark elder like we did in the old days. Your win ratio will go up

Now if you don’t belive me buy the army refine your list come to Sacramento, California so you can get POWER OWNED by me. Then ill help you sucker someone into buy this weak army

PS Sometimes I really wonder how many of you play regularly

[Waterbizkit]

Now if you don’t belive me buy the army refine your list come to Sacramento, California so you can get POWER OWNED by me.

Wow, can you say inflated ego? Go play with your MEQs and come back when you've learned a little common sense and humility. I only wish I could be there when someone who knows how to play DE ruins you.

Now that I've gotten that out of the way, on to a more serious note: The DE are by no means and end-all army as many of the people making pro-DE comments seem to be coming off as saying (though not intentionally I'm sure). Still, they are a powerful army in thier own right as is every army when played correctly. Those of you so ready to just write them off are not only ignorant, you refuse to accept the fact that no matter how "broken" an army may be, it can still be viable.

I'd also love it if people could stop jumping the gun and saying that the DE are going the way of the Squats, because here's the thing: You don't know that they are. That is to say, you don't have the slightest clue what GW is going to do, no more so than my 18 month old son. So among some of the other ignorant comments you people have to make which need to stop, this one in particular needs to. If it happens somewhere down the line, then you can post to your little hearts content on every message board unfortunate enough to have you as a member at the time that you knew it was going to happen. Until then, how about giving it a break?

~Bizkit

edited: I removed a couple of "heated" comments made spur of the moment which were inappropriate. While I did remove them and will appologise for them, everything else I left in my post stands.

[Popsumpot]

It also doesn't make sense that the sales of DE is in the red if GW is now brining it more to the public attention. Never before have DE been featured in battle reports, and now, we had two or three in a short perirod of time. It means that it's either a fore-shadow of something that is comming out, namely the rumoured new DE codex, or it's acknolodging the fact that the number of DE players are on the rise. It wouldn't make sense to continue pour resources into something that they are going to kill.

Just so you know, jet bike dark eldar owns MEQ better than all other, and i somehow seriously doubt you beat DE with Blood Angles.

[MooFreaky]

@DemonKnight. Just because you have never lost to one doesn't make you the be all and end all. I've never lost to Marines (of any varient) or Necrons with my Dark Eldar. But I still respect them as armies.

- CC relies totally on their HQ...
Are you mental?! Wyches, Warp Beasts, Warriors are all superior to Marines Point for Point. Jetbike varients will absolutely SLAUGHTER Marines in CC.

-Raider Rush = best varient...
Wrong. Plain Wrong. The 4th Edition rules make this much less effective. Portal is the best general army. Jetbike varient is best anti-MEQ army.

-Cover being scary...
Wrong. Plasma Grenades/Combat Drugs and a Portal will mean your front force will be hit and the rear ones too.
But that is a good tactic. It is what Marines need to do to remain competitive.
But never forget that DE have alot of means to get around such a tactic.

-Needing first turn...
SOOOO WRONG! Of all the things you have said this is probably the dumbest.
DE players will 90% of the time want to go second.
Going second means going LAST. Going last with an army like DE is very dangerous to the enemy. Why? It's when we can use our excessive movement to get to the important locations and gain VPs. Whether that be a Zone, Point or killing a target.
DE love going second.

The only real exception is fighting IG, and that isn't guaranteed. I've had games where I've wanted to go second against IG before. Didn't bother me slightly.

You really haven't played a good DE player.

If you'd pay my way, I'd fly all the way from Australia just to watch you eat your words and go crying home.
And if you did manage to win, I'd shake your hand and say how impressed I was that your MEQ army took down my DE. And give you alot of respect for it.
However, with your attitude and ignorance I doubt this would happen.
It's rare that a person with such talent would EVR make a comment like that. We have some players here that I know are damn good. They don't need to make such arrogant comments, because they rely on their advice and understanding to show everyone how damn good they are.
And the chances are they'd never admit they are really good. I've never once experienced someone who could make such a statement and then back it up.
Why? Because the best players know that you can lose at any time. So you never believe yourself to be unbeatable.
Why? Because they've played the best of the best and they KNOW how intense games can get, and how they can go either way. And they would never consider a good player an easy beat. No matter what army they play.
You, however, just come across as stupid.

How many of us play regularly?
How dare you say such an insulting thing to some of the most senior members here. Many of the people commenting here are known well around here, and most forum members can tell you that purely from our general knowledge and advice that we have played alot.

Before you make such stupid, and egotistical comments maybe you should pull your head out of your arse and learn something.

DOUBLE POST :
Bizkit is dead on. DE are not the be all and end all of armies. No army has that claim.
But they can claim exactly the same as any other army. Played right they are fucking dangerous. And few people are dumb enough to not fear them.
Especially MEQ players, as many DE varients can be designed purely to maim these lists (ie Jetbike lists)

[HopkinsWFG]

Ok, i played a good DE player last night with my templars. To be fair i got utterly slaughtered. Now I did have a list picked to be balanced in combating vehicals and troops, which he saw and then deployed raiders via webways in order to keep them away from the lascans. You might ask why i didn't pick a different list... sadly I didn't have the troops on me to drop my pred and dread or I would have done.

By the end of play I had only my termie chaplain left on the board, and he was being assaulted by 4 units and two Haemonculi. I only managed to actually kill a quarter of his infantry, including his lord, who fell to a nasty twatting from my assault squads powerfist very early on.

In conclusion I learnt serveral things. Dark lances are nasty as hell, a talos against infantry which can only hurt it on a 6 to wound is going to cause trouble...

I was comprehensivly beaten. As stated above I was at a slight disadvantage from first turn, but the sheer speed and nastiness of the DE was a real eye opener. I won't take such opponents lightly again, not that I did this time. After losing nearly all of a 1500 point BT host whilst only killing 1/4th of his army, I think this is a neat illustration that when played well, DE are utterly lethal. Speed plus some real teeth in CC (not to mention dark lances) could cause anyone a headache.

[Popsumpot]

There we go, we have converted thy onto the path of light

[FerociousBeast]

Let me preface my comments to say that I have never played with or against a dark eldar army, having been out of the TT scene for years now. I am still interested though.

It sounds like from what you guys are saying that a good dark eldar player, if the dice gods are even slightly with him, can beat any other army, no matter the skill level of the player. So are you saying that the Dark Eldar army is actually overpowered?

[DatonKallandor]

Skilllevel of both players is equally important. If being better than your opponent is overpowered....


Daton

[MooFreaky]

Not at all Feriocious. Just that they are just as powerful as any other army out there. People write off the DE, and say they will be a walkover. Yet they are extremely powerful.

However, agaisnt MEQ armies there DE variants that will nearly always win. Except perhaps agaisnt heavy Vehicle armies... and they SUCK agaisnt anything non-Meq (only the anti-MEQ version I'm talking about)
DE are no way overpowered. They are an army, that when used right, can potentially shred anything they meet.
However, 1 slip up and you will regret it. They don't take lightly to mistakes. There is no army that be hurt as badly as DE for a mistake.

But they take alot of finess to use right. Meaning they are limited in their potnetial users, as they are very tough to get the hang of. And even the most experienced players will slip up (that includes being forced into a mistake or just outplayed)

[Popsumpot]

Put it this way, a Jet Bike army can kill off a Space Marine army faster than any high-starcannon eldar list.

They generally perform better against lower body count armies than swarm armies.

[Hoa]

ok 2 nights ago i went to my local GW and i brought my tau army along, i saw a guy i regularly vs every fortnight and he bought his DE army along. he said it was his first time playing DE so i went easy on him. but at the back of the store there was a old guy (40-50 yrs old) this old guy played DE ever since DE came out and he has managed to rack up over 10k army over the years. he guided my friend to beat me at the end of turn 4. that was when i totally agreed with DE being crap. now i know that is a false fact, DE can be better than almost all armies if used correctly. By playing DE you also need experience e.g knowing weaknesses, knowing plays, knowing when counter attacks are going to happen e.t.c DE is truly a Finesse army. The old guy said that he lost over 100 games when he started DE because he had tried to use everything that the DE had and then he realised he should use DE's strength eg speed. so he thought up many of his own plays and managed to win a few tournies. You should NEVER underestimate DE armies ever.

[StoneRhino]

Since some of you want to post how your eye's have been opened up recently to how good the Dark Eldar are. Here are a couple of mine.

Back when Thousand Son's where the only MEQ army that could jump out of a Rhino and rapid fire. And before the artical "Putting the zap into Tzeench. I met a DE player on another forum. He constantly bosted about how unbeatable he was. He even would post pic's of tourny wins. An overall nice guy, right. So I took a trip to San Diago, CA. Not telling him I was coming I went to the shop he played in. He did show so I asked for a game. My army basicly consisted of thousand son's in rhinos, A lord of change, a chaos lord, termy squad and 2 dreadnoughts. He had a large raider force. First turn I drove up jumped out and shot things. He respionded by charging into cc and killing a few. Second turn I drove up the rest of my troops jumped out and shot what was left out of CC. The Lord of change came out. Also my dreads joined the wide spread CC. Bottem of the second he looked at the board shock his head and quit. I asked if he would like to play again and refused.

Maybe a mounth ago I played a DE player with my Tau army I made as a joke based on a 84 fire warrior list. He made the mistake of underestimating firewarrior fire power and lost most of his force as a result. He quit. This time I agree he did not stand much chance of winning. I don't see him very often so I left my phone number at the shop to have him call me so I could post the army list he used agaist me. He called after this thread had started. So I asked him if he would play me 5 - 10 times with me using the same list (Mech Tau). Allowing him to change his list after each game. He basicly said no. Actualy he said he had basicly shelved his DE to make a Tau list. We then talked about Tau tactics.

To anyone who has a problem losing to DE. Change the way you look at the game. I mean don't worry about killing his troops. Take away his advantages and the army falls apart. As said by Moofreaky force them to make a "Mistake" and because DE lack staying power they die.

Moofreaky - Since flying out ao Aus probly is not going to happen any time soon. Post an an Army list 2000 pts that is equaly good at facing any type of opponite. Or you can just make it to play against the armies I own.

Space Wolves / 13th Wolfen
Tau - all types
Orks / Speed freaks
Armoured Co - actually don't inclued this one
IG- All infantry or Armor heavy
Thousand son's - don't inclued this one either.

So you have a little advantage I almost always play with lots of transports.

[DatonKallandor]

And your point is? All you are saying is that DE can loose. So can every other list - noone denied that.


Daton

[StoneRhino]

My point is that is that the Dark Eldar are one hit wounders that have nothing to fall back on if that hit misses or fails to destory their opponite. IMO that makes them a very weak overall army.

[Popsumpot]

But if that one hit do hit, than it's pretty much unstoppable. The difference between a good player and a bad player is that a good player can make it happen. So you have discovered Dark Eldar have a weakness, don't all armies do?

[Sparticus]

Every single army and player can screw up. Lets say a Tau face off against Speed Freaks. The Tau and Speed Freaks are both very respectable armies.

The Tau lose priority. On their first turn, their infallible firepower somehow manages to not kill a darn thing. Next turn the Orks are among them in CC and its over.

Now flip it. The Orks lose priority. The Tau's first turn manages to completely destroy every freaking transport, leaving the orks to footslog. The orks advance. The next Tau turn shows practically every single Ork being blown to doomsday.

Now lets say the Tau win priority. Their first turn they fire, and blow up, say, half of the ork transports. Great. The Orks advance. The 2nd turn the Tau fire, and dont hit the broad side of a barn. Next turn the Orks are among them in CC, with a 2nd wave, being the ones that transports were blown up, close on their heels.

And we could go on and on. And this is just one example pertaining to Tau and Orks. EVERY SINGLE FREAKING ARMY CAN MAKE ONE BAD MOVE OR ROLL HORRENDOUS DIE THAT SCREWS UP THE WHOLE GAME.

I think the point is, you just don't like DE. And that's fine, but to slander them and call them weak and this and that and predict DE's doom day is just going a bit beyond personal opinion.

EDIT: Just because the DE are complicated and tactically challenging, doesn't make them weak.

[bebe]

By you own admission to make DE a good army. You have to concentraite on one area of the army and max it out. Taking a mix just weakens the over all list. Then you have to gear up for this one knockout hit.

You may consider a one dimentional army thats only good for one big hard hit, a strong army. I don't. Can it win .....Yes. Just as easily as it can find itself over stretched, isolated and crippled.

By his own admission he is building a tournament army for a tournament. He plays against skilled players and fields a list maximized for effect. Lets get real here. I've seen the nine oblit IW, the nine speeder army, Siren deamonbomb, the 600 point seer councils, the 120 madboyz armies, etc. He is admitting that power gaming requires a different mindset and composition sometimes needs fall by the wayside. Moo dislikes my wife's list because it is too thematic and not quite focused enough for him - I appreciate and understand the sentiment - and yet it still manages to win when played competently. Some DE players
strive to create the perfect list for the army they expect to face - some like a list that is a bit more thematic and fluffy. All play intending to win and rely on skilled tactics to achieve that end. Warhammer is a game of skill - that is what separates the noobs from the vets.
Saying it is one dimensional is a meaningless statement - many high level armies rely on either shooting ot getting into H2H as quickly as possible. So Tau, Necron and all Eldar armies are somewhat one dimenional. Many ork armies fall into that category as well. Should we all play meqs?

Every single army and player can screw up.

Truer words never spoken. And the dice gods will have their say as well. And the real Are DE are good - they are as good the general who directs them. It like most GW armies has the potential to be good or awful.

The last time I challenged my wife she totally screwed me up by adding Kroot to her wyche cult list and taking out her WWPs relying on raiders to get the wyches in my face quickly. I was not at all prepared to take on Kroot infiltartors and as she expected her wyches and beasts got to my lines almost uncontested after my army was was forced to deal with her warrior squads with DLs and kroot snipers w/ hounds. So DE can throw twists at you like any other army and a skilled player can mess up your plans fast.

[terracomm7]

Dark Eldar were my first army and I like their art and playstyle. Their models on the otherhand look pretty lame with a few exceptions, such as Incubi, Talos, and Warriors (with a nice paintjob).

Anyway, they are not as "gimp" as people say as they just require a different playstyle and outlook.