[Strat] DE? Good I hear you say?

[MooFreaky]

Just because they die easily if you don't use them right doesn't make them crap. It just means you have to be good at using them before they work well.
THat makes them an elite army, not a crap army.

They have a different style of play. And that style is something that many players struggle to comprehend or use efficiently. Just because fewer player use them well doesn't make them crap.

Your argument begins to vex me. What is the point of comparing army lists? It makes little difference, as it's the manner in which said army list it used. So I fail to see the point.
If you really want, i'll post up my 1,500 point Tournie list on the Strat forum. But I fail to see the result of such an endeaver,.

edit
DOUBLE POST :
Please explain how DE are one dimentional?
A one dimentional army is one that plays EXACTLY the same no matter the opponent.

That is definately not true of DE. Against Nids and Orks, you play an avoiding game. You try to rapid fire as much as you can, then recieve a charge.
It's just that against MEQ armies DE always try to get into CC quickly.

Many armies do that. Orks, Nids, CC Eldar, BT, BA, SW...
That means they are all crap armies doesn't it.

A well balanced marine force is one of the only forces that is consider "all round". That is the only force, that by your definition, isn't one dimensional.

Tau ALWAYS play a mobile game, where they shoot and scoot. One Dimensional.
IG ALWAYS play a sit and shoot game. One Dimensional.

DE are a CC army! Just because they want to get to CC quickly doesn't make them crap. Or one dimensional. They need to react differently to different circumstances. A one dimensional army plays EXACTLY the same way every time. Regardless of opposition or force composition.


Use the edit function please Moo. - Ap0k

[RedShirt]

Where to start??

Well I guess I will start by saying that I am a DE player (ducks) and have been for the 7+ years I have been playing 40K. It is in fact the only army I have.

Now it my years of playing I have come to the conclusion that there are 2 kinds of people in respect to the DE. There are the Dark Eldar players and the people who play DE. Yes there is a difference. People who play DE have usually picked them up as there 3rd/4th/etc army and usually one of those other armies was a SM army (this is reflected in how they play DE). Now a DE player is someone who lays DE as their only/primary army and has taken time to learn the army and have learned the tactics that work and the unit balance that works best.

Unfortunately I have not met a lot of DE players, but a lot of people who play them. And in that time I find that the people who play them and the ones who play against these people have all written them off as a weak army because they can't win with them or don't win enough. I've also found that once these people play against or see a DE player play, they come to see the potential the army has. I myself have been the eye openner for more than a few people. This is where the difference between the 2 types is apparent. The DE players know their army and usually know how to use it's strengths and minimize the weaknesses as best they can (this army unfortunately has more than any other army IMO). Where as people who play DE then to run them like marines (run in guns ablazing) and get massacared for it. DE don't have the armour of marines and can't survive direct assualts. As a few people have mentioned here, DE are a very unforgiving army and is the reason most people don't like playing it. Marines (no disrepect intended) are a very forgiving army and it is why it is the most played (mainly by beginners). This level of challenge is one of the reasons I chose DE as my first army.

One thing I've been lucky enough to have gained while playing DE, is the repect of those I play against. Yes I lose more than I win, but it's been a very long time since I was massacared. Most of my loses are considered minor in terms of VP. But when I win, it tends to be greatly in my favour. One thing I can attibute this to is the fact that most players out there greatly underestimate the DE and what they can do in the hands of someone who knows the army. This is the case with a lot of armies.

My favorite personal experience was at a GW store where I showed everyone there what a DE player can do with a DE army. I'd been forced to wait a few hours for a bus, so I went to the store to check stuff out. I got talking with the people there and got the typical response when I said I played DE. They had only 1 guy who played them at their store and he had never won a game with them. When I asked if it was his only army I was told no, he had a really big marine army and had picked up the DE as something different (see above section on DE players and people who play DE). I laughed at this and made the comment most of us do when defending our armies, that I wish I had my models there so I could play him. Well as it turns out they had a demo table set up with SMvsDE (the starter box with those armies had come out that year). The SM had 2200pts +/- and the DE had 1800pts +/-. Now both were technically illegal armies (the SM had 5 HQ choices, 3 of them special characters, and the DE had Vect, who can't be run unless you have at least 2000pts).I asked if I could redo the DE list with the models they had on the table but was told no by the GW staffer who made the list (a guy I have to point out had for the first time picked up the DE codex that day to make the list) We did a 3v3, with each person getting a couple of the units on each side. I had 2 kids with me (the oldest was 12) who had never played DE or really seen them. We were given the objective ok killing a specific one of the HQ characters. At the end of turn 6 we still had over 900tps left, the marines had 4 men left of a 10 man tactical squad, and 3 of the 5 HQ left (we had killed our target that turn) something around 400pts total. Everyone in the store had gone silent by that point. I got told by everyone there that they had never seen anyone play the DE like that. Everyone there had expecte the DE to lose because they army was considered weak. They even set up the armies for it (400pt difference!!). I left that store with the repect of all people present and they had mine. No one made excuses for the lose. No one accused the army of being cheesy. In fact after the game I showed them the army list I would have run and from seeing what I had done with what I'd been given, they knew that the army had the potential to be a strong force to fight. I also admitted that that game easily could have gone the other way. My side got some luckly rolls when it counted and the SM team made some bad ones, but had also made some tactical errors that I was able to exploit.

I think my favorite joke is the "Friends don't let friends play eldar, especially Dark Eldar" They guys at my club say it in fun to me because I am the only DE player there. But I have their repect and they all love to play against me because they know they can't walk all over me like most people would assume. They also know tha yes DE probably have the worst Strength to Weakness ratio of any army out there, but when played well it can take on any army out there, and has the potential to win any game. One of the reason for this is that the DE haven't had a real update since they came out (the new Wych rules and vehicle upgrades don't constitute an codex update) Every other army has had at least one rewrite since the DE came out (the Tyranids & Eldar have had 2 complete updates since I started playing, and the Tau have had an update already since they came out!) But GW has moved the spotlight towards the DE lately (the new North American Campaign is even giving them a new Special Character) and I have heard that they are still looking at doing a new codex for them since they are the only army to not get overhauled in a long time (the rules have been redone twice since they came out, but they've not).

I like my DE. They provide me with a challenge and everyone I play against finds it a more challenging game because they know what the army can do and they know I can play it well. No one faces me expecting to win because they know it's not a given.

Now to answer Talar's question, to make the DE work you need to learn what the army can do and figure out what works best for you and overall you have the most fun with. The same thing for every army. Or just go along with the 'template' armies that everyone else does. I like to still try out different combinations to keep the game interesting and to keep it fun for my opponents. I, myself, would get bored with an army list that I know would win every time.

[StoneRhino]

Sadly enough I completey agree with you Redshirt. You are one of the exceptions I mentioned earlier. When I sit down to play a new (Different) DE player. There is about 65% chance they are going to get crushed. Any army that more then 1/2 the people play that play them do not play them well. I can not respect an army like that. I do however respect the few people that can win with such a weak army.

How about we let this thread die now. I'm tired of the same things being said over and over.

[Popsumpot]

But essentially, Redshirt is making the point that DE aren't weak, and they aren't push overs, and you agree with him, yet you continue to say that they are a weak army.

By your logic, Codex: Space Marines is weak and Adeptus Arstares are a crap army because 90% of the player can be guarrenteed to be noobs and loose.

It's not the players that makes a codex weak, it's the codex it's self. We are continully making this point to you, but you fail to understand.

[MooFreaky]

Rhino, your arguments really make my head hurt with their complete lack of logic!
Just because a n00b can't pick up the army and use it does not make it weak!!

It just makes them an elite army. It makes them something that is hard to use, but powerful when used light.
There are many armies that, when picked up by a n00b, will get crushed.
Nids, Eldar, Orks tend to get whipped first time out.
why? Because they aren't MEQ. They can't rely on big tough armour saves. So that means they take some getting used to. Like many things in the world. Just because they are weak at first does not make them crap.

And if you call them weak again I swear I'm going to scream and beat my head into a weall in frustration. They are actually extremely strong, they just need to be wielded correctly. They have some of the best units in the game... it's just many people cannot grasp the concept behind how they are used. It's a very different style of play. Just because you are so incapable of thinking outside the box, does NOT make them weak.
I admit that in the hands of the wrong player the army is weak. Why? Because they can't use the strengths of the army correctly. The list isn't weak, the tactics are just obscure. And it's not the list's fault if people, such as yourself Rhino, are too god damn ignorant to learn how to actually use the army.

People try to play them as Marines. But their poor Sv values and low T makes it a stupid tactic.
Play them as Orks or Nids? No. They are just as good a CC army as both of these forces... however they play in a very different way. So trying to play them in the same manner as a standard CC army is stupid.
Play them as IG? Stand and shoot alot. That doesn't work either. the DE don't have the firepower or the numbers to pull off such a tactic.

The DE are very unique, and need to be learned anew. But once you have the mindset of a Marine army or any MEQ force, or even horde army it's hard to change your mindset to think like the DE need.

[DemonKnight]

@mooFreak

Just because you have never lost to one doesn't make you the be all and end all. I've never lost to Marines (of any varient) or Necrons with my Dark Eldar. But I still respect them as armies.

It completely hard for me to believe (and probably for a few other members) that you have never lost to SM or Necrons both armies are well rounded unlike the DE. So I’m guessing you either play the same person over and over or you’re just talking out of your ass. I can actually say Ive lost to all armies at one time or anther except for DE. Mate just give it up we know you don’t play stop trying to be a relic board tough guy its pretty sad…

-Needing first turn...
SOOOO WRONG! Of all the things you have said this is probably the dumbest.
DE players will 90% of the time want to go second.
Going second means going LAST. Going last with an army like DE is very dangerous to the enemy. Why? It's when we can use our excessive movement to get to the important locations and gain VPs. Whether that be a Zone, Point or killing a target.
DE love going second.

You wont have enough left on the board to take table edges Considering going second means 1/4th to half of your raiders will be shot down. Who do you play again? Playing against yourself doesn’t count

If you'd pay my way, I'd fly all the way from Australia just to watch you eat your words and go crying home.
And if you did manage to win, I'd shake your hand and say how impressed I was that your MEQ army took down my DE. And give you alot of respect for it.
However, with your attitude and ignorance I doubt this would happen.
It's rare that a person with such talent would EVR make a comment like that. We have some players here that I know are damn good. They don't need to make such arrogant comments, because they rely on their advice and understanding to show everyone how damn good they are.
And the chances are they'd never admit they are really good. I've never once experienced someone who could make such a statement and then back it up.
Why? Because the best players know that you can lose at any time. So you never believe yourself to be unbeatable.
Why? Because they've played the best of the best and they KNOW how intense games can get, and how they can go either way. And they would never consider a good player an easy beat. No matter what army they play.
You, however, just come across as stupid.

I am a conceded ass but you know what I can back it up also. See I actually play at the largest shop in Northern Cal where about 60+ people go to with a packed house of about 20-30 playing on the weekend. Where I’m at waiting for new blood and always ready to fight a new variant of an army. Now why would I want to spend money going down under to break off a clown like yourself. When you can come to where real players play and send you home wondering wow I got my ass handed to me because it’s not just me who will break you off it will be half the shop mate. I never said I was the end all when it came to armies but I’m a dam good judge of them. Now if you were actually any good like I know your not you would admit DE have flaws. There is no way you could have flawless records against SM armies and necrons unless you never lost to them because you never played them.

How dare you say such an insulting thing to some of the most senior members here. Many of the people commenting here are known well around here, and most forum members can tell you that purely from our general knowledge and advice that we have played alot.

Posting a lot on the board doesn’t mean you play a lot and from what you post I can tell you either play the same people like your kid brother, or the some top heavy SM player who stretches for points at your local shop that only 3 people including yourself go to. But I’m whiling to bet you play just with yourself… and I too would have flawless records with all my armies. Writing long post doesn’t mean your any good or that you have General knowledge in your case you write a lot to get your lame points across about the DE I may be a conceded ass but at least I don’t have an ego MR senior member. How about you come to reality and take a nice trip to Cally Id like to teach you a thing 2 about what it means to be good


The only reason they are in magazines lately is because their trying to get that crap off their shelf before people realize a new codex isn’t coming out. Because if there was a codex coming out then why hasn’t it since the army was the first codex out making it the oldest? Now in the case they do make one I bet their will be radical changes to the army lets hope so for your case.

So once again I will say don’t buy this army your wasting your money.

mooFreak this army sucks stop being in denial that this army is any good to justify the amount of money you’ve spent on it and for the hope that a new codex will come. Stone said it right your going to be phased out like the squats, but you know what playing against the squats they were a lot tougher than your DE.

I vote they bring back the squats

[Waterbizkit]

I may be a conceded ass but at least I don’t have an ego

Contradict yourself some more, it's amusing.

*cough*

Anyway, this thread is getting ridiculous. No one has ever said that the DE are the be-all-end-all of armies, people have simply stated that when played with skill that they can be devastating. Calling an army weak based on the fact that it has flaws in the codex is laughable, every codex has flaws. It takes skill to play an army, not just what's in the codex. Anyone who thinks otherwise needs a swift kick in the ass. Weakness lies solely in the player, plain and simple.

People saying that they're going to phase out the DE need to shut it, as I've said before. Unless you currently work at the GW studio and take part in making the executive decisions, then what you have to say about phasing out the DE is worth about as much as one of my sons shit filled diapers, plain and simple once again. I think that subject needs to be dropped right now since no one here has clue on way or the other, and pretending you do gets sad after a while.

One of the real problems a handful of people in this thread seem to have is lack of respect. There's lots of shit being talked, but talking shit on an internet forum is probably one of the most pointless things one could do. I could claim I've been playing the game since Rogue Trader and a load of other crap, but what does any of it mean? Firstly, you don't even know if I'm being truthful and secondly if I'm talking shit like some conceded ass then who would take me seriously anyway? Respect people, respect. Use a modicum of intelligence when you speak and it'll work wonders.

You know why I can't take a damn thing you say seriously DemonKnight? It's because you talk trash like you're some undisputable king of the game. I mean seriously, nothing you say is of any worth because you can't even show simple respect to the people you're addressing. I mean am I supposed to be impressed because you play in one big store in one fucking state? Good for you, I hope you're proud, hell... I know you are because you talk like it makes you the be-all-end-all of 40k gaming. What does where you play or how many people show up to game have to do with the discussion at hand? I've played in sixteen stores, in thirteen cities, in two countries... and I certainly don't think that makes me any better than anyone else on these boards regardless of where they live or where they game. I mean I can't believe you actually turned around to Moo and tried to say you can back your talk up simply because you play in one god damned store in California, and that he couldn't say a word because he lives in Australia. That's both ignorant and ridiculous. You're a joke, a total joke. I mean dear god, "When you can come to where real players play..."? What the hell is that supposed to mean? Am I to believe that the only people who know how to play this game are centralised in Nothern California? It's funny, tell me a another one sonny jim.

This thread needs a lock, that's what it needs. People trying to make the reasonable argument that a flawed codex isn't weak, but that instead it's weak players who pander to those flaws that make it weak simply won't break through the wall of ignorance that some people want to throw up because a flawed codex seems to automatically mean the army as a whole is weak. I mean Jesus, we all know that DE is the only flawed army out there, don't we?



I wash my hands of this sad mess....

~Bizkit

[DemonKnight]

When you can come to where real players play..."? What the hell is that supposed to mean?

All that meant is I calling him out and I think he full of BS

I really don’t care if you take me seriously because I’m tired of the same lame arguments that they are good when their not. Why would I be polite on a board where every time I and many others have a valid claim on something “senior board members” shoot us down. I play a lot love the game and since a number of people like me to go over their list I think I know a bit about the game. Most of the arguments I see ive actually played on the field of battle in number of instances, in the instance of DE I think that even if you were the best you are still going to loose a overly amount the army is weak. And for your info I play with a lot of great players and I know that cally isn’t where all the greats players are, but I will say listening to the boards for over a year it really make me wonder. I do travel around the US and to say the least there are a lot of great players in Cally compared to a lot of places I’ve ventured to, but maybe its time I think to start traveling out of country.

So for the recorded so people understand DE suck and it doesn’t matter if your good or not and I don’t want people spending money on them like I did (yes I sold them)

Now whether you belive me or not again I don’t care

[Robert Frazer]

MODERATOR'S INSTRUCTION: Alright, final warning everyone. Having a read over this thread, it was actually quite decent until the last page or so, when everyone has become unnecessarily aggressive and several of people have been responsible for slinging about unwarranted aspersions and insults. Any more cross words and profanity, regardless of the poster's identity or the context of the post, will result in an immediate lock and a warning for flaming. There's no need to post messages acknowledging this - just bite back inappropriate remarks in future. Concentrate on the actual strategy of a Dark Eldar army... which is part of this forum's title, in case anyone's forgotten.

[MooFreaky]

It completely hard for me to believe (and probably for a few other members) that you have never lost to SM or Necrons both armies are well rounded unlike the DE. So I’m guessing you either play the same person over and over or you’re just talking out of your ass. I can actually say Ive lost to all armies at one time or anther except for DE. Mate just give it up we know you don’t play stop trying to be a relic board tough guy its pretty sad

Good for you. Believe what you want.
You know I don't play? Why? Because I disagree completely with you? Because you underestimate an army.
Necrons and Marines are well rounded. That means they aren't exceptional at anything. Meaning that the DE are better than them in CC. By a very long way.
DE happen to be exceptional at killing MEQ forces.

You wont have enough left on the board to take table edges Considering going second means 1/4th to half of your raiders will be shot down. Who do you play again? Playing against yourself doesn’t count

Umm... not if I don't use raiders. I use 2 raiders and they both come through Web Way portals. That means I have a handful of squads on the field that are very good at keeping out of LoS. Effective use of cover, and sacrificial units (they stop my IC being shot...) means that laying down 2 portals is very easy.
I've never had my Portal carriers shot down before a portal was laid. Even against IG. Why? Becuse I'm uber talented? No! Because keeping units out of LoS, or in cover, as well as knowing how many to deploy at the start of the game, makes it quite easy to get at least 1 portal down (often 2).


You play at a big store? woo for you.
What does that have to do with anything? It doesn't mean your great or anything. Massive stores can still lack people talented with a type of army. Just because you haven't seen DE used effectively doesn't mean you can write them off. Perhaps you could listen to other methods of use (besides the ones you do know) and try and see how they would work before saying how bad something is?
I have yet to see great use of Witch Hunters. But I know they are a good army. Why? Because I've listened to the posts by Witch players here and I've seen how those tactics would be effective.

And do you actually mean to claim that the only good players in the world live in the USA? Or more specifically, in Northern California?
What evidence do you have for such a statement?

I also wasn't refering to myself as a Seniour Member... I was actually refering to Popsumpot, ap0k and Waterbizkit (all of whom made comments on the side of DE). Anyone who has been around here knows that they are extremely knowledgeable people and are good players. Have I seen them play? No. But I know, from what they post, that they have the most important element of a good player. They know their army and they knows the tactics behind it. As well as knowing the oppositon.

You can keep claiming I play against no-one, or that I have no idea... but what basis do you have for this? Because I disagree with you. I don't see why people are not allowed to have a different opinion to you. If you would take the time to listen, maybe you would see something that you hadn't thought of and not just ignore an army that you perhaps haven't completely experienced.

Now if you were actually any good like I know your not you would admit DE have flaws

When have I ever said they are flawless? I've been saying how they have light armour, poor toughness, can't stand up to firefights... are these not weaknesses?
Maybe I just try to minimise these weaknesses? So that would make me bad?

You've actaully started abusing me purely because I disagree, and because I said your argument it stupid? How does that add up?
Disagreeing with a tactical choice is a good thing. It allows us to learn. But this is different. This is outright refusal to acknowledge that an army is good, simply because you haven't played against someone who plays them well.

Maybe you are just very good against DE. I have no idea. but there are many players out there, so maybe you could listen to what we have to say, rather than just disregarding eveything so quickly

[StoneRhino]

I have played against many different types of DE armies. Even the times I lose I never step back and think "Wow, I have totaly underestemated how strong the Dark Eldar really are". That's because the lose can normaly be traced back to a mistake that I made. Normally an over confidance mistake. As Redstirt said the DE have one of the worst strenth to weakness ratios of any army. I also agree with Redshirt that there are a few select players out there that have the ability to take on nearly every other army. But as I have said before you can not base the playability of an army on it's most elite players.

You guy have me all wrong. I like the Dark Eldar but GW droped the ball when making the army list. I congraduate ever person that can play them well. As someone who plays probly to much I can say that win or lose I would rather it be tough game than an easy win for me. In all of my travels it has been my expirence that most DE armies can not give me those tough games on a regular basis.

Also you should stop thinking of my saying it's a weak army as an attack against your ability to play them. Instead you should be proud of the fact that you can win with an overall weak army.

Moofreaky - Saying you have never lost to a SM player just sounds like a wild boast. Far be it for me to call you a liar but SM and all of their sub armies are the most played and strongest overall armies. That have people who play them from all skill levels. No need to respond since I'm done with this thread.

[Sparticus]

Lol, he just doesnt want to get hammered again. :fight:

EDIT BY ROBERT FRAZER: this post was worded to irritate people, directly contravening my instruction on the previous page. This user has been warned.

[Robert Frazer]

I gave it a chance, but I can see that this isn't going anywhere productive.

Locked.