Discussing BWs

[Lestaki]

Okay, at Klaus' suggestion, I thought I'd start this thread with an eye to chatting about what's been going on in the BW forum and all that stuff, to prevent a slow death by off-topic in the Mecha thread. I'm sure I'm not the only one who's thought that good BWs were a bit thin on the ground right now, with good ideas tending to die at a tender age, so we might as well talk about it and blame each other officialy.

I've already span my take on events, that we seem to jump between projects a lot right now. I'm as guilty of this as anyone, tending in the past to literally join everything, play maybe half at all, and quit as I got bored. So now I'm trying to see a couple of BWs through, and not joining any others. This is helped by the fact that I am utterly fired by Leviathan, because I'm enjoying my character development. This explains why I've posted every other post there for a while now, and I suspect I'm not helping matters by boring you all to death either.

So, what's your take? Let's throw the forum open, what makes a good BW? What gets people involved, and keeps people involved? And what should the players themselves do to help?"

[The Shadow]

I would say that all people on here or almost all would make a project for a good BW all involved would join and play it thourgh before starting any new ones or joining any other BW's.

Edit:gtg to sleep...

[Klaus88]

I think it's not that we have enough good boardwars its that we have too many good boardwars. There are a lot more ideas floating around the forum then there used to be.

Another thing is that I haven't seen any new boardwarers around. It's always the same guys.

I think, we need some boardwar ideas that aren't so complex like hellgate which was very much in line with a popular game and mainstream Sci-fi images

Good boardwars are serious but also include some humor. One of my favoriate boardwars to date is the Old hellgate one where Klaus knocks out Zalevessa to prevent here from being possesed by a demon. And he doesn't bat an eye or show any kind of emotion except to say "too many demons and not enough marines to risk having you turn into one of those things."

Also what happened to helping people out? I remember my first boardwar in awakening. Lestaki and Ardias were very helpful indeed.

EDIT: I think ti would be really stupid to try and make a project out of a boardwar because "If you try to please everyone you end up pleasing no one."

[Lestaki]

I remember my first boardwar in awakening. Lestaki and Ardias were very helpful indeed.

I've probably become an elitist bastard since then.

Personally, there are two core kinds of good BW, imho. There's the "quick and dirty" kind that Klaus is describing. No complex setting, no complex characters, just a lot of explosions, fun and a smattering of humour. Action is the draw. The other kind is something like Galactic War or Age of Awakening, where much of the fun comes from creating your own races, histories, ships and generally running your imagination wild. What am I trying to say here? Beats me... you probably all know this anyway. Maybe we've been going a little heavy on the latter kind, I guess- they require a lot of energy, and the funest part always seems to be the beginning, meaning we all tend to move on. Maybe some more cheap thrills, yeah.

Edit: Oh, and a good leader is important, especially for the long ones. But that goes without saying.

[Klaus88]

What he said

We've had too many boardwars where basically you say to the boardwarer "heres your sheet, now make up everything about your country/race and weapons/tech/whatever and it gets very confusing and boring quickly.

[Sword_Monkey]

Thats an interesting point Klaus, but what is the alternative, GW1 and 2 ran on that premise, and we even decided fleet systems midgame, with (practically) no disruption to flow.

Though someone, and i cant remember who, said most of the fun is in making the boardwar and involved armies.

Creativity is at the core here, GW somehow managed that very well, I think it was the scale, you could trash each other in fleet battles, fighter battles, planetary assault and one on one combat, or even squad fighting. And in the meantime you could spam as much technobabble research as you wanted.

Even though the current BWs may be good I don't think they currently even verge on that level of creativity.

Creativity - IMHO.

[Sevorak]

True - the more involved and complex boardwars do tend to get confusing and boring quickly; the attention wavers, and often, what people are looking for is a good blastfest. Though, naturally, if the players are dedicated and involved in the races and characters they've created, they can - and sometimes do - go far. In addition, the pressure on the leader in a boardwar is directly proportional to the complexity of said boardwar - and depending upon the dedication/ability of the GM, the boardwar can either stagnate quickly and die out, or become refreshed by a leader's ideas and innovation, and advancement of the story arc.

Suffice to say, though, the long boardwars do tend to be the most rewarding - at least, to my eyes. Galactic War II was a lot of fun, though it became less so for me towards the end - though that was far more due to personal issues than actual lack of interest in the boardwar. Still, writing up the epilogues for my characters as I am now is rather satisfying when I consider how the entire affair began - as a rather haphazard idea of having some form of fleet engagement boardwar.

And when you consider the way it turned out - involving personal combat, boarding actions, even a few land conflicts in the process - pretty much exemplifies how far a boardwar can change from initial concept, depending upon the input from the most critical cogs in the machine of a boardwar - the players themselves. I mean, the initial leader of Galactic War I was replaced midway due to lack of input on his part, and the second was resurrected by the two of the more prolific players in the first one, without any input or even mention of the original 'creator' - though as I'm pretty sure you all know, it's the players who really make a boardwar; the creator's job, in my opinion, is simply to try and weave a cohesive storyline that incorporates all of the disparate strands of the players' races. The vast scope of possibilities in Galactic War, I think, was one of the major contributing factors to the sequel's actual finishing.

At any rate, these are a few of my babbling thoughts - peruse them as you will, and poke fun and tear them to shreds at your leisure. ^_^

- a rambling and reminiscing Sev.

[Lestaki]

Sev, I'm pretty sure I've told before that you have an alarming tendancy to the declamatory.

Some things to note about GW, mind. The PvP component was somewhat, ahem, limited, as has been pointed out to me. At the end of the day, no one wants to lose. I think that the extent of our battles between each other was Akr commiting suicide an awful lot, and a couple of "executions" that removed players from the game. That side, the idea of a "wargame" in which defeat with without concequence for the future should help encourage PvP in GW3.

And I'll rip something from Sevorak's thoughts as well- GW was made great by the players. It was helped by its scope, which was epic, but at the end of the day it all came from the players. But again, as Sword Monkey says, there was a huge amount of room for players to be creative. That helped a lot as well. GW war also exception in its huge starting playerbase- I think we had fourteen people at the start, which is incredible. Of course, many of them dropped out at various stages, and that seems to happen in all BWs. But because had such a prodigious player base to start with, it survived despite horrific casualites. We lost the leader, a few more people at the start or near it, Dieo by the second thread, kicked out two more people due to power play issues, and another three eventually left... but we still just about managed to finish it. There's no way a BW with the average number of players could have survived all that.

In summary, GW was an anomaly in which a lot went right, and I've no idea why. I guess, on these boards, we all have a good reason to love fleet battles. But though I can't recall correctly, I'm fairly sure it was the only one of its kind at the time, one thrown open to everyone to create their own races. Right now we have rather a lot of them. The mecha BW idea followed the "your choice" pattern, as does the proposed Ork BW, Leviathan is one through and through and the Realm, imho, is somewhat like Leviathan with a slightly greater emphasis on grand stratagy. That's quite a few, and we don't seem set on any of them in particular.

[Weavern]

Attention span of the majority of the participants dies out the moment something else shows up and thus it dies. Secondly if the GM goes AFK it either dies or someone else tries to pick up which can only put off death. Finally one too many on the go means that people spread themselves thin hurting everything only to jump at the next thing which looks interesting.

[Akranadas]

I only join about 1-2 board wars at a time, too many and i'll run the risk of doing the same thing across the board.

I prefer the more complex type of BW, it just gives the BW more depth and a greater sense of balance.

Oh and join the realm

[Warmaster Death]

i think we need to give the battle for Medrengard 4 a revival...such a good story.

[The Shadow]

I agree with Sev.

I don't like boardwars with no other idea than powerplaying like hell and just killing everyone. Those might be fun at first but they usually repeat the same over and over again. They die often very young.

I like depth in BW. It must be interesting and have a good story (and I also like creativity a lot).

edit: What did Imrix do in here? He seems to be banned from most of the BWs?

[Lestaki]

Imrix isn't around anyway, so it isn't much of an issue. But he powerplayed horribly in the two Ultimate Showdowns, and I mean horribly, which is probably why you wouldn't know. He also turned up in Age of Destruction and did some *interesting* stuff there as well. Please note I'm reporting more than passing judgement- I'm all for giving the guy a second chance, he was at least prolifric. But, hey, looks like the Warriors have made their judgement.

Edit: *Looks below.* I recall that as well. Yeah, maybe it's for the best after all...

[Klaus88]

Imrix isn't just A powergamer, he's the textbook example of THE powergamer. Which is to say he manages to get away with it.

Imrix almost singlely handedly managed to derail the second Ultimate showdown because everyone was aiming for him and forgot to fight each other.

He also really screwed up the Cult of Chaos boardwars.

[Sword_Monkey]

..Anyways

What is the ######## for the ultimate Boardwar? Or is that like asking what is the meaning of life?

[Lestaki]

Considering you didn't acually ask a coherent question, Sword Monkey, yes, it's like asking for the meaning of life.

[Carni45]

Off topic: The meaning of life is 21
On topic: A good BW requires co-operation in my opinion and alot of it.
oh yeah, for all orkiness, ORK Board War!

[Red Fox]

If any of you read the Discovery of Terrial(Not a new world) that is a great example of a good boardwar with only the ability to make your character and have limited abilities to make them with. The story was epic, deep and envolving with somewhat of a classic yet extremely fun. That was my first and best boardwar i have ever been in. I don't think many could top it but that is my opinion

[AMARDA]

I have to say this much, over participation was the reason for my dropping out of GW, which I started. Here’s how it went, I went to school and by lunch time there are about 10 posts and by the time I get home there are around 20, each having multiple story lines, and as I'm the GM, I had to read all of them to make sure no one was power gaming. By that time I did not feel like writing anything. Then when I did write something, it wasn’t of high quality. That’s my side of the story.

[NotPersonal18]

i prefer the longer ones, thats just me. But i hate the fact that i have little time for them. I'm working on that though, and it should end. Very soon. And by that about a couple months.

[Sword_Monkey]

I agree with ARMADA I have the same trouble, I am amazed that I kept track of GW from the beginning, although Lestaki's posts did get quite long winded and odd, foolish foolish person. :P

@Lestaki why is - What is the ######## for the ultimate Boardwar? such an incoherent question?

[Warmaster Death]

Actually, to be honest, my all time favorite BW, would have to be the firts Battle for Medrengard i was involved in, i beleive it was the third.
the simple fact that all the characters were somehow linked was cool.
even though it was probably not everyone's intent to make that so.

[BrianGeneral]

Thanks for creating this Lest, but actually I've already got the materials I'll need for starting the Mecha BW at 2nd half of June, when all my exams are over, so be patient guys

Since this forum re-opened BW section (or not? Just after a few months when I joined this forum) I participated in BW often (first one was Murka's Godgame), only not during these times due to lack of time......

Back to the topic.
The main point of BW is: Fun. One creates a story, limitations and basic ideas for it, and other joins to write the story together. This can be a rip-off from the famous storylines like 40K and LotR, a story set in a distant reality or future, or just going back to the medieval time(I didn't saw one however, maybe I overlooked), and everyone who joined have their rights to amend, create, or twist the preset history, that's the fun of participating in it.

Seriously, I prefer one with a storyline is better than those "oh come on, set up characters and fight". That's not because the length or fun (and in fact one can really create an intense battle by joining it), but that means you lose the ability or chance to make a plot twist. By joining Battle for Medrengard series (probably the longest BW story in this forum ever) since its v2, I got this point when one can really create sub-plots while not affecting the main plot much------that's the fun of it, and what pure-fighting BW cannot give.

On the other hand, BW needs people to survive. What problem we all encounter is that once people joins, they'll sliently leave it, or just admit they'll withdraw from the BW when they found themselves not interested in that anymore. For those who withdrawn from it, we can blame them for dragging the number of "players" of a BW down and so fewer and fewer people to create plots, but the organizers of BW should also think about their ideas: Is that my BW not interesting enough to hold people in it? In this situation, a good leader will be important------Look at BoM v2 at last page (or a few before it), 1xxx posts. Then look at v3 a few pages before, 943 posts. Now look at v4 at this page. 2xx posts and that BW is keep dying. (I must admint I'm incapable to do what Dark Hunter did------we all missed him.) To keep a BW alive, the leader should always update the story in order to keep people's attention. At BoM v2, DH's effort can urge me to sit in front of the computer and post something like 20 posts per day, but as we see right now we're unable to do so.

In a word, the quality of the people who're joining BWs are unquestioned------in fact, some of us are veteran players already------but in order not to create disappointments, one must ensure that he has enough time to run a BW if he's going to run one. If not, don't even bother.

Now onto the depth of running a BW.
A good storyline is important, but more about that is the matter about who're joining------that is, wide variety of choices when creating a character/army/race/etc. I must admit, Sev's Galactic did a good job in it since he allowed everyone to have their own speciality, and that's what 40K/LotR/WHFB/etc BWs can't go that far due to their settings are already fixed. My point to ask for suggestions for my Mecha BW is also the same------try to fit everyone's interests. Not all, but try.

Aside the faction-creating limitations, the number of players must be flexable. That's why I don't like "duel-like" BW because they're limited to a few players. With a flexable BW people can always join and participate in it, making the story more interesting.

A good storyline/background is essential as we all know. This is the core point of holding fans' attentions to this BW.

Now it's the time for actually running the BW, and here's the ways to make it fun to play and sustainable.
1. The moderator, or other players, should monitor anyone who're violating the rules and told him not to do so. If he continues to misbehave himself, kick him out or even ask Moderators to ban him from the thread if he continues to harass everyone in the thread. A rule violator will spoil the fun of playing a BW, and without moderating it well and fast can lead to a BW's decline.

2. Make plot twist frequently. A single plot-BW won't last for long, while those with plot-changing or multi-plots (especially conspiracy if you ask me) will certainly make it more interesting. Secret plots can also help, like PM among players for alliances, or even sudden side switching without warning can raise the novelistic feeling of the BW------but of course, not to overpowering one side.

3. Post frequently. Not only moderators, but also players. Once joined, everyone is a part of BW and have the mission to try to end it. It may not end, but when the organizer thinks the story can come to an end, he can just post a proper ending and thank everyone for joining.

That's all I can think of about BW right now. I know everyone gather here is for a purpose to improve BW in the future, and hope that it'll be a good start by veteran BWers like us to think about it first

Warmaster: I'll try to keep BoM v4 alive if I can, but it'll also require others to participate in it since I don't have much time these days......

[The Shadow]

Hmm... This thread is named Discussing boardwars afterall, so could I post my BW idea in here? (Though only idea, planning to make it perhaps after some of these BWs have finished or died.)

[Lestaki]

Be my guest, I suppose.

But this brings up an interesting point I've noticed before- we all want different levels of "intensity", I suppose. I check up every day at a minimum and are never happier than when spending an hour bouncing back and forth between me and some other prolifric players such as Klaus. I recall my first BW, Daemonworld, in which we once were all on at once and wrote a fifty post fight with a bloodthirster in one hour... *eyes mist over happily* On the other hand, I can see that other people find this a little offputting or just downright confusing. Its no fun wading through twenty posts to make your contribution, in the knowledge that it will be another twenty posts before you post again- and are thus being to a certain degree sidelined. However, it isn't much fun sitting around for two hours waiting for something to happen either. I guess we all want BWs at our own pace, and it can't be helped.

[Akranadas]

Thats what search thread is for, search it for your race/charcters name and then you know someones doing something to it,

but we all know what BW are really for...to increase posts counts j/k

[Red Fox]

What you and Klaus do Letsaki is what i love to do. I can just never find that many active boardwarriors (Oh god did i just type that) and it usualy makes me a Board warrior (Damn bad joke day) but usually nobody in the same boardwar is on or it has to invovle everyone or a certain person who is not on at that moment. But lets get to something a little bit meaty. What is everyones favorite boardwar type. If we have something of an idea then we know what to make.

My two are Steampunk and 40k

EDIT: Also we need some fresh blood. Im not sure how we can get it but the same old people can get pretty old.

[Sword_Monkey]

New Blood!!

Yes I was just telling Carni that - Great minds Bentus, great minds.

So we need more people, but how?

And my favourite type? hmmm..

Flawed civilisations, and cliched characters. plus poltics, but theya re just features i guess, actual types well...

Civilisations, Good Vs Evil, Punky is good too.

[Red Fox]

Prepare the Ugly Stick of Noob Beating we need new people and i dont care howmany times i must beat them with the uglystick (Until it breaks) Yeah i was just sitting at my compy one day on the boardwars and i say, "Hey its just the same 20 or so people...every single boardwar. We need new people but how?"

[Carni45]

Well i say we round them up with squighounds.
Being serious, i don't know .

[crawford'n'co]

Thats something ive noticed too. I might get two or three of my friends to come join. But thats a hope at best. I say we get "Fleet Command" to close all the threads but boardwars. I personally like the boardwars where you control your own nation, but yet you have your own "mini" characters. Those and Space battles.

[Lestaki]

Hmm. This is an out-of-the-way corner of the fora, dare I say deliberately so? So I'm not sure how you'd drag new people in here all that often. I suppose the best thing we can do is to make sure that when anyone shows an interest, we're as welcoming as possible. Noobs tend to make a few mistakes, I remember a couple of very active members from elsewhere in the fora who powergamed, usually by controlling other people's characters, and while it's annoying we should probably try to be a bit more polite and welcoming. One of those incidents involved... a certain powergamer who's well known here and was less than polite and so... yeah. We need to correct them obviously but aim for maximum politeness and welcome-stuff. That's all I can really think of.

[Akranadas]

One of those incidents involved... a certain powergamer who's well known here and was less than polite and so... yeah.

Erik? and his unstopable hordes of characters all strangly similar to necrons

[Lestaki]

Nice try, but no cigar. Fine, I'll say it.

Show spoiler

Imrix

Yeah, big suprise I know...

[Sword_Monkey]

Aww i had my money on Erik, I liked Erik, damn bullies the lot of us...

Oh well who is the noobiest among us?

Or are we all veterans now?

...time til Lestaki makes comment alluding to my noobiness t-minus 2 minutes

[Carni45]

Im not sure what we are?, normal people or people wanting to be a chaos cultist.

[TheLoneKnight]

I'm a noob.

[Lestaki]

Nah, you're a veteran, Sword Monkey. Spelling isn't required. And luckily for me, being a pedant isn't an immediete disqualification either. I'm not sure any of us are noobs, we're such a small group we can't afford to alienate anyone that way. I was just recalling a couple of events, in which the noobs weren't actually posting here now. That was the point of the story.

@ TLK :Slap: If you're a noob, we all are. And I'm not going to be a noob.

[TheLoneKnight]

You wouldn't say that if you noticed I've only been in 5 or so boardwars, two of which I created.

Even Erik has posted more than I have in here.

That reminds me, I should probably come up with a third massively failing Boardwar.
Maybe something like Mordheim. Hmm...

[crawford'n'co]

Im probably the only noob here, and I dont care if you call me that, because Ive onyl been in 4 boardwars I think. Two of mine I was also in but one never got started.

[Sword_Monkey]

5 Boardwars isnt bad, that'll get you out of noob territory, 1 or 2 shows you how they work, so you are definitley not a noob, plus you have made some, I still haven't.

Mordheim ey? I would have to have that explained to me, I never looked into it too much.

EDIT: Also to Elite-Zealot the same goes for you, 4 plus your own BWs you are therefore not a noob.

[Red Fox]

I think this calls for the Bentus definition of Noob.

Noob- 1) A person who is totally unexperienced at something or does not know the rules. 2) A common insult to those who are not to good at what they do. 3) A person who is good at nothing and only gets in the way of others. 4) What eveyone calls eachother in the massive online first person shooter of Halo 2

If you fit any of these definitions please seek imidiate Veteran help.

[Carni45]

the Ork BW seems to of floped, shame .

[Lestaki]

It isn't a matter of shear experience, imho. It's about being good at it. Knowing the rules and being able to hold up you side of a roleplay is easy after your first war, and should be pretty simple in your first war. RE Bentus' definitions, I wouldn't say anyone we have here qualifies as a noob, because we don't wantonly destroy BWs and we know the rules. That's it. That's all it takes people. I wouldn't call anyone here noobs.

Actually, to be fair, Grim is pretty new, right? He turned up for Grail, IIRC, which was fairly recent. And he isn't a noob either. Despite me not taking my own advice and being pretty rude to him. So there's hope for us yet.

Edit: Carni, I really would have joined that, but I'm being a little overcautious about joining BWs right now. I think it's a good idea, but just in case my own grim prophecy of "joining too many BWs leads to lots of dead BWs is true, I'm not joining any right now. Well, I joined the Ultimate showdown, but that's just a silly one that's easy to keep up.

[crawford'n'co]

I'm limiting my self to 2 boardwars. I also think that we should not create any boardwars till we are absoloutly sure that the ones we have going now are completely dead. Then we should all get together, adn agree on one or two boardwars that fancy everyone.

[Klaus88]

*Sigh* I'm with lestaki, I really do like going back and forth with another player like he said. It can be a lot of fun.

What I would really go for is a boardwar where we have magic and railroads at the same time. We could do a wild west/ colonial boardwar with Elves or orcs taking the place of natives. We could have lots of neat battles with something like that.

[Red Fox]

Sounds like Iron Kingdoms if anyone is a Pen and Paper Roleplayer. Its basicaly a time where Technology is at its peak with Steam engines and Arcane stupid AI and guns. Magic is feared but excepted by elves and Gunpowder is somewhat magical. Ill explain it if i make a BW on it later.

[Klaus88]

Interesting. very interesting.

[TheLoneKnight]

Mordheim is a Warhammer Fantasy "Sub-game" - you can find the actual backstory for it here.

I figure if turned into a BW the players would decide upon and create their own parties (ie; everybody plays one person and decides whether they want to hoof it alone or join up with other players). Then perhaps ever-changing objectives depending on what the goals of the characters are (removing the taint, looting the church, or murdering some insane lunatics who have been roaming around the city killing people without purpose, or the most obvious hunting down wyrdstones).

I figure it'd be cool. Some of my friends hate the idea of a fantasy based boardwar, though, so I haven't put much thought into it.

[Ardias]

I haven't said much recently but I've been popping in now then, been pretty busy with, well life in general. As I see it right now what this forum needs is a fresh start, basically that means putting a freezer on most things and making one BW that everyone can focus on. Now this is a lot easier said then done but here is what I believe could be done to get things rolling - mind you I've only read the first page and the 4th page of this discussion.

What we really need is something that has clear rules but isn't limiting, where you can have character development or no real development at all as some people like it. The main thing to notice here is that we have different players who like to do different things, and so I'll use an example and actually propose an idea at the same time. Bascially you have faction A and B, could be more but not by much, maybe one or two more, but lets just stick with A and B for simplisities sake. So you can chose to play as a more involved, in depth character like a politician, giving great character development and all that good stuff, thereby opening up the aspect of diplomacy, trade, etc. This character might also be the one to control, ask for help, from various large scale forces. Now the players who like to fight and blow shit up and don't wanna fear losing their main character can then take these various forces and go fight with em, if they lose who cares, they put up a great fight and they go on to control another army, or small kill team. Here is an example of how this might work.

We'll say that Lestaki decided to take make an indepth character that ends with 'essa' - lets just say a politician or some crap like that, while Klaus and Ardias decide to go a more wham bam thank-you-officer sort of way. Here is the situation, Ardias is getting raped down in the southern marshes somewhere, he has gone through three armies so far and he is really taking a beating. So he goes and PMs Lestaki saying "Holy fuck I need some help here bro!!" Lestaki then goes and tries to do some political stuff, and after working some magic manages to bring forces into the area/raise moral/screw around with the enemy, making them back off or something like it. In the mean time he also goes and asks Klaus who has an elite assassin team to help out, he sends a pm to klaus. "He dude we're gettin the shit kicked out of down south, I've been able to bribe some people and use some connections to get you into a prime sabotage position, if you pull it off we'll be able to hold off and turn the tide of war. Klaus replied saying "Fine, but I wanna a new mansion with full of scantily clad women."

This way you get Lestaki making an indepth character, Ardias making something that just lets him go and fight, and Klaus somewhere in between.

This way you have co-operation among players, you have rules, but not strict, you have customisation and all those nice things, and everyone pretty much can do what they'd like. You're also focusing on one goal with other players, trying to use each others strengths and weaknesses. The GM would obviously be the overseer of things, taking charge of different 3rd party forces and events, while at the same time throwing in twists and turns into the plot and sending each faction various messages and signals.

And as long as we can all agree on a universe type thing then we should be ready to go. OH and everyone would obviously have a good amount of input as to what happens to make sure everyone is having fun. Well there ya have it, my random mussings.