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So I was looking at my Hive Tyrant the other day...
And it came to my attention that, when equiped with Warp Field, a 2+ armour save, and then 6+ invunerable save. On top of that, its a Synapse Creature, so it can't be insta-killed.
Wouldn't that quite possibly make it Immortal? Or am I missing something here? (which Im certain I am)
Anyone else have the same kind of problem or notice what seems to be an overpowerment of a single Model?
#2
Three las-cannon shots, or plasma shots shot do the trick.
Really? The GW guys at my shop said that shooting at it with a lascannon would be a waste of ammo..
Why would it be? lascannons and plasma guns are "the" weapons to pring the Hivetyrant down.
I didn't stay to hear his reasoning, all I got as I was walking off was that the fact that the Tyrant is Synapse renders the Lascannon pointless..
#6
You can't insta-kill a Tyrant with any weapon except a Wraithcannon, as it's T6.
Besides, all a player needs to do is shoot it with loads of AP2 guns like the Lascannon and Plasma Gun, which will negate the 2+ save and make the Tyranid player use his crappy 6+ inv save, which won't save very much.
Beyond this place of wrath and tears
Looms but the Horror of the shade,
And yet the menace of the years
Finds, and shall find, me unafraid.
I see...Thanks for clearing that up for me!
#8
It sounds to me like the guys at your store have absolutely no idea what they are talking about. Tyrants are just as vulnerable to Lascannons and Plasma weapons as any creature is. The new synapse rules haven't made them any harder to kill with it.
Are you sure they weren't talking about Warriors? Which are now protected against Lascannons and such. Making the stanard Bolter/Flashlight just as effective (point for point)
Shouldn't this be in Rules discussion or something?
What the hell, use railguns if you play as Tau, or whatever your best tankbuster is. Alternatively inundate with so many shots that it is bound to lose at least some. Of course, this may not be a wise idea against nids as if you don't take out the little gribbly that are racing towards you, you are probably screwed.
EDIT: On top of that give it 2 tyrant guards and it'll be damn near unkillable, but a huge point-sink
I have no problem with God, I just can't stand his fan club.
#10
The Synapse rule, if anything, makes the tyrant more of a AP2 magnet. Lose our synpase creatures and the lower resort to animal instincts and very low leadership values. Genestealers and similar exceptions not withstanding
Through out all of the Tyranid discussions I've heard, it sounds to me that the Tyranids are the easiest race to take down - everyone knows how to beat them.
Granted the dice are in your favor, have any of you ever lost to a Tyranid Army? I've only played small scale games myself...But it seems to me that they stand little chance against anyone with a Lascannon or Plasma Shots can kill them easily...
Tyranids aren't the easiest race to take down.
Do not confuse Poster Bravado with facts. You have to realize that people who are giving you advice are mostly veterans. Take in what they say to strengthen your army.
Every army is easy to take down if you know what their weakness is. You as a general need to learn the weakness of your army and use it to your advantage.
For example, Tau to me are easy to beat. All I need to do is get into CC, and game over. So I'll mechanize my Witch Hunters to get their as soon as possible,
But a good Tau general knows that his army is weak in Close Combat, so he will make use my knowledge of this against me, and if he knows that I only have one thing on my mind in fighting him, then I could easily fall into a trap.
Know your armies, weaknesses and cover it.
#14
Okay Invid. Care to expand on that unilateral statement?
While every likes their las/plasma squads, i think an assault cannon is a good way to take them down. Not one mind you, but a terminator squad with 2 assault cannons would ruin anyones day.
"i am the emperors will made manifest"
chaplain (WA)
to see my techmarine tactica, please click here
#16
Not to mention that no-insta-kill thing only really works properly for Hive Tyrants and Carnifexes.
Lascannons and BattleCannons will still insta-kill a Warrior of T4. The rulebook and recent FAQs point this out, as the rule in the Codex is *double* your toughness...
#17
Actually Tabby, they won't. They'll just lose a wound instead rather than be removed completly, because Warriors are Synapse Creatures.
#18
Since when has there been a new Tyranid FAQ?
Unless GW states otherwise, instakills to warriors from any weapons Str8 or more don't count.
Also, Tyrants and Carnifex's can't be instakilled by weapon strength being double their T. Both are simply too tough to do so.
Hormagaunt armies suffer to Vehicles and high initiative armies (especially when there is no fast synapse nearby).
Hive Tyrants should never be taken (in my opinion). Being a monstrous creature basically sticks a big neon sign about your head saying *HERE I AM, HIT ME!*.
Alot of players who face against Tyranids know that a Hive Tyrant is usually 50% of the key to defeating the Nidz (Synapse first priority), and such target it with everything. I experimented when i collected Tyranids, and used 2 Hive tyrants both with 3 Guard, they travelled about 12" (2 Turns) and then died to all shooty armies. Versus CC armies they were merely avoided until enough of my force was destroyed.
WingTyrants are reasonable, but still a Monstrous creature.
For all Synapse/HQ - take Warriors!
...See
My army has no Warriors, a bunch of troops, but no warriors.
No lictors, no Biovores, just Stealers, Gaunts, and Horma's...Oh, and my Zoanthrope, 5 fex, and of course the Winged Tyrant.
Alternatively, the same people who said Lascannons = useless, said that an army with 45 Warriors and not as many Troops would work well...I dont see the beauty really.
I think the max Warriors you can field in a game would be... lets se... um... 72. heh.
Wow. That would be really cool to see!
However.. With them tweaked up, adn a couple minimum troops it would EASIALLY be 3000 points...
Would be a cool-looking army though. You would win the Norn Queen Achievement Award for most Synapse Coverage on a battlefield.
"Nids... No Sweat!!! Just shoot at the Synapse... Cr... Aw Fug!!!"
#22
I've run that type of Hive Tyrant in many a game...probably all of them. He dies about 50% of the time.
Only one of us is going to leave here alive and it ain't gonna be me!
No one is above the law...of physics.
Lets not forget.. however the advantage of having something soaking up all of those AP2 shots. That can be a significiant advantage if you plan for it. Kinda like taking a Bloody Hand in a Eldar Army. Goal = Soak up Shots.
If you are only taking one or two synapse creatures in a 1500 with your Tyranid Army ('fex, 'steal, 'rip not included) then you need to be thrown into a digestion pool and respawned as someone with a bit more.. shall we say....synapse?
At any rate, if you have 150 Spine or Termagaunts and 3 warriors in the whole army... go... well... Play with marines or something! :bag:
#24
Vindicare - AP1, Turbo Penetrator turn 1, Shield Breaker turn 2. Nighty night Tyrant.
Wrong, actually. Cheesy at it is, s9 weapons will still instakill warriors, as the wording of the synapse rules say that "synapse creatures will not be instakilled by weapons of double their toughness". It says nothing about being MORE than double their toughness, or otherwise ignoring the instakill rules. Cheesy, yes. Against the spirit of the rules? Totally. But is it legal? Hell yes. Same as boosting bikers lose their armor save by the wording of the rules, Warriors can be instakilled by lascannons.Unless GW states otherwise, instakills to warriors from any weapons Str8 or more don't count.
Like that right there - Tyrant gone by turn 2...
Now, the Tyrant isn't the most powerful thing in the army clearly, but by turn two how much damage could it have possibly done to make up for its points?
Tyranids = Owned...
Not if you're careful with it. A Winged Tyrant is often fast enough to get behind or in cover, and while landing in a wreck forces him to take a dangerous terrain test, that's a 4+ save against any Lascannon fire headed your way. If you get him into CC, he's going to rip through all the minned Las-Plas squads, killing around 3 per turn and easily clearing BtB before the powerfist gets to strike.
Fact is, you need an average of 8.64 BS4 Lascannon shots (or 5.54 volleys of Assault Cannon fire - wow, that's disgusting) to take down a Winged Tyrant with Warp Field and outside of cover. That's quite a bit - enough to kill a Predator or cripple a Hammerhead (dead or lost gun). If you can pull 4+ cover for him, that's 14.4 shots required to drop him. Even if he loses a wound from the DTT, he can absorb 10.8. He's more durable than most vehicles, and in cover he's rock hard. He's also a CC beast and fast synapse.
A walking Tyrant with Guard is even more invincible. Not only can he take advantage of cover with impunity, but for almost the same cost as the flying CC Tyrant, you can get a gun-Tyrant with a single Guard, which improves his survivability by almost 50%.
The fact that the Tyrant is an MC doesn't really mean that he takes many more shots. Given the ease with which everyone passes target priority checks, your Warriors are going to get obliterated too, and Assault Cannons and Heavy Bolters mow them down faster than they can advance up the field. A single Land Speeder Tornado can inflict nearly 4 wounds on a Warrior squad with a volley of fire, after all. Even with dirt cheap Warriors, you're still not really saving many points over a Tyrant for survivability. With more reasonably equipped Warriors, you're actually losing points faster.
Zoanthropes are amazing, of course. Our local 'nid player makes do with 3 Zoanthropes and 2 Tyrants as synapse in 1000 points. I'm not really sure why you'd take Warriors.
While I don't think that anything but godzilla 'nids have a real chance in a tournament, that's only because the quite popular mech Tau and certain Eldar builds can afford to almost completely ignore anything smaller than a Zoanthrope, and can even shrug off most MCs in CC. Against more traditional armies, 'nids of all sorts do quite well.
#28
Actually, the wording is:
So whilst in Synapse range...Originally Posted by Tyranid Codex
Anything with T4 and 2+Wounds can only be insta-killed by S9+, whether they are Synapse or not (Biovores, Zoanthropes, Raveners, Lictors, Warriors).
Anything with T5+ cannot be Insta-killed, period.
That's one hell of a bonus...
Actually, no. Synapse doesn't make you immune. It was never intended to. It just makes you a lot tougher than your average beasty, and in certain cases (like the biggest hardest ones) immune by dint of their natural toughness being enough to tip it over the S10 limit. That wording was very deliberate.Against the spirit of the rules? Totally.
#29
Tabby's got it right on. It was introduced to stop Space Marine players Krak-missiling Warriors right off the bat. That tactic was extremely effective at causing whole swathes of a Tyranid army to lose synapse, so now you have to go the extra mile to get the same effect you used to.
Probably. Either way, I don't care much, as I abuse it to my hearts content.Actually, no. Synapse doesn't make you immune. It was never intended to. It just makes you a lot tougher than your average beasty, and in certain cases (like the biggest hardest ones) immune by dint of their natural toughness being enough to tip it over the S10 limit. That wording was very deliberate.
im afraid that you are wrong. Strength 9 or 10 does not instant kill warriors. ur manipulating the wording but if you think about it strenght 9 is double the toughness as is strength 10 strength 8 is just the minimum required for the rule to come into play.
Plus a flyrant is a fabulous choice as mentioned above it can take a stupid amount of damage and get into combat in turn two. Very few armies can bring it down before it reaches combat, and then they can't shoot it anyways
Freeman
.
#32
Well, the consensus on the issue says otherwise. As I said in my previous post, this rule was introduced to make Tyranid opponents devote their extra strength weaponry to destroying the synapse creatures. Giving the example of Krak missiling Warriors immediately which would cause broods to lose synapse was a devastating blow to Tyranids that was too easy to do. So now, thanks to the rule, the enemy has to devote stronger weapons than before to insta-kill synapse creatures. In the case of the Warriors, you'll have to use Lascannons if you want them stone-dead right away, which cuts down on your anti-TMC firepower.
BTW the rulebook says Instant Death is caused by models getting hit with weapons either double or over the model's toughness, where the Synapse rule just says double the creature's toughness.
#33
We're into the realm of pedantics here. Technically TECHNICALLY, a strength 9 or 10 weapon is more than double a T4 toughness. So they were right in that it can be argued by strict interpretation of the rule. However this is silly playing and probably not in the spirit.
synapse cratures are far too killable. the flying tyrant might make it, depending on who's firing but the rest of the army would be left behind. (at least most other synapse creatures). the flying warriors you might decide to take wouln't even have a hope of reaching combat if the enemy is packing a battle cannon or those 3 shot necron heavy weapons.
also, you're really abusing the double toughness rule. it pretty well implies that it's double or more are safer
"To alleviate this problem, we've rewritten the Synapse rules such that creatures within range of the Hive Node are immune to the effects of the Instant Death rule. This new rule simulates the Hive Mind invigorating the creature despite horrific injury and gets around undesirable weakness in the list - bonus!"
This is a quote from Phil Kelly who actually wrote the codex
I think if you are going to use your interpretation of what was intended rather than definative evidence you are officially cheating
Flyrants can take a silly amount of damage especially from battlecannons which can at most do one wound which could miss fail to wound or be saved by an invulnerable save. When he reaches combat surrounded by leaping warriors and hormagaunts hes a killing machine
#36
Freeman, please state where you are quoting that from. Because otherwise, you should follow what it says in the rulebook, which is very clear.
No, using your definition rather than what is written in the book is cheating. The words in the book are clear, and are the definitive evidence...I think if you are going to use your interpretation of what was intended rather than definative evidence you are officially cheating
Last edited by SilverTabby; 15th Jun 06 at 8:06 AM.
you are interpreting the rules to be clear but the quote from GW website tyranid designers notes says how the rules are meant to work. Since my interpretation is the same as the interpretation meant by the designer it is clear that my interpretation is correct.
#38
I would agree that your's is the correct interpretation of the rule. The point we were making was the taking the actual written rule and it's exact wording then you could argue the other case on a technicality. However, with this direct quote from GW, I think you could show it to the opponent who would then no-longer have a locomotory limb on which to be in an upright position.
Please note that prior conclusions and statements were drawn in the absence of Freeman's latest quote, which subsequently ends this debate. Well done on bringing that one forward.
#39
Actually, we're still waiting for a link to that quote.However, with this direct quote from GW,
Here you go tabby.
#41
That settles it then.
Tyranids just got a little harder to kill.
LOL
It's not a direct quote from GW. It's a direct quote from a game developer. The same ones who said in an online article that you could take 2 veteran skills on a MoCU unit (which is blatantly false). That quote has no relevance to ingame mechanics, any more than the Turn One that commented on the sillyness of psycannon vs turboboosting changes the rules. Until GW releases an official FAQ, warriors can be instagibbed by s9/10 weapons. Just because that was the INTENTION of the rule does not mean that bad wording does not change the effect.However, with this direct quote from GW, I think you could show it to the opponent who would then no-longer have a locomotory limb on which to be in an upright position.
...The employees at the GW store saaid that because they are Synapse, they can't be instakilled...period
They have been wrong before though..
And they are again. The rules say nothing about ignoring the instakill rules. They say they ignore double t weapons. Only. Again, it's cheesy, but as the rules say, if you have higher, it instagibs.
No offense to any knowledgable redshirts out there, but most of those guys are idiots when it comes to rules interpretations.
It says clearly in the 'nid codex they ignore insta kill from weapons double there toughness. But it doesn't say the can't be insta killed by other weapons, like a wraithcannon.
#47
Yes, 'double their toughness'. The point is, it doesn't say 'double their toughness or greater'.
#48
Put me in the "it's stupid, but we have to play by the rules, so Warriors are only safe from S8 weapons" camp. It's stupid, but we all have to play by the rules or 40K would be no different than the games I played with my army men as a child.
"My green guy shoots you with his flamethrower." "No! My Tan guys are immune to the effects of flamethrowers because they are from the desert and used to the heat!" "Oh yeah! I'll just smash your Tan guys into the ground and see if they stop me now!" *stomp, stomp* "MOM!!!...."
Every man I meet is in some way my superior.
--Ralph Waldo Emerson
#49
I have to be honest, I never would have read that rule as equal-to only, but I can see the relevance as such in the way it is currently written. It should be written better, however, saying something to the effect of, "immune to instant death from weapon strengths which are exactly double their toughness", or "only immune to instant death from weapon strengths which are double their toughness".
Again, that's just me THINKING.
Here's the link to the Spanish FAQ's
http://www.games-workshop.es/warhamm...cional/faq.asp
and the English translations:
TYRANIDS
Q. Can I take Extended Carapace and Warp Field to get a 1+ Armour Save?
A. No, the best armour save you can get is 2+, as the carapace has no link whatsoever with the creature’s psychically-generated force field.
Q. If a Tyranid creature in Synapse range is wounded by a weapon with a Strength of more than double their Toughness, do they suffer Instant Death or do they suffer only one wound?
A. They are killed, as the rule for Synapse range makes them only immune to Instant Death when caused by weapons with Strength of double the creature’s Toughnerss, but not if the Strength is more than double the Toughness. So, for example, a Tyranid Warrior (Toughness 4) is just wounded by a crack missile (Strength 8), but is killed automatically by a lascannon (Strength 9).
Q. Following the previous answer, what happens if a Tyranid in synapse range suffers Instant Death from a weapon that does not have a Strength value, like a Wraithcannon?
A. They are killed, in the same way as if they were hit by a weapon with a Strength of more than double their Toughness.
Q. What happens when a Carnifex or a Lictor is out of synapse, as fearless creatures can fail synapse, but can't fall back?
A. If a fearless Tyranid is outside Synapse range and, wishing to move, fails its Ld test, it must Lurk instead, as described in the Instinctive Behaviour chart.
Q. Is the Hive Tyrant an Independent Character?
A. No, so it cannot join other units. The only exception to this is, of course, its retinue of Tyrant Guard. This unit follows the rules for retinues (except that the Tyrant counts as an upgrade character with this unit) until the Guards are all destroyed, at which point the Tyrant reverts to the normal rules for Monstrous Creatures.
Q. If a Hyve Tyrant with a Tyrant Guard is the only model visible to the shooter, can the Guards be hit instead?
A. No, if the only target in view or in range is the Tyrant (for example if the Tyrant and its unit are inside/behind Size 2 terrain), only the Tyrant will be hit.
Q. If a Spore Mines Cluster Deep Strikes and lands on an enemy unit or impassable terrain, is it destroyed or does it detonate?
A. It detonates, resolve the barrage in the exactly the same way as you would for a cluster fired in the shooting phase.
Q. If my Biovores fire a Spore Mines Cluster on an enemy model and score a hit, the rules say that I should resolve the explosion at the end of the phase. How does this work?
A. If the cluster lands on an enemy model it detonates immediately, as it would be awkward to have to hold models on top of each other. In any other case the cluster explodes at the end of the relevant phase.
Q. If a Carnifex or Hive Tyrant has two twin-linked devourers or deathspitters (i.e. four of the same weapon), does it get to fire two twin linked weapons? In other words, does firing a twin-linked weapon count as firing one or firing two weapons?
A. Firing a twin-linked weapon counts as firing a single weapon, so the Carnifex/Tyrant gets to fire two twn-linked weapons.
Q. Can one of my Tyranid Warriors buy two barbed stranglers or venom cannons and then fire them as a single twin-linked weapon?
A. Yes.
Make's it very clear to me!
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