Directed Writing Workshop Two - Criticism Thread

[Starfisher]

Here's the format:

Read the post below yours in the submissions thread and post your thoughts here. The usual rules apply. Anything you say has to be backed up with something from the text, do not directly attack the author - focus on saying things that will help the author improve their work.

If you have a comment you would like to make about another story, feel free. Clearly differentiate who you are referring to by titling each section with the author's name in bold. The rules above are just to insure that everyone has something written about their work.

I'll take the first post (in this case, Rodimus's), and everything follows from there.

This does NOT mean submissions are closed, just that the criticism round has begun.

Link to submissions thread for posterity: here

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Rodimus:
I quite liked it, actually. I was expecting it to lose its pace or tone or something, but it stayed just right and even straight through. The ending was a little pat, but it works for the piece.

Some technical quibbles:

“No, it’s Blue Agave and margarita mix and lime juice and salt amongst other things.

“Like what

“Oh, you know. Usual...Effevexir. Seropaxil. Remefoxitin. Phiblocipraxin. Oh, and, of course, my personal favorite, Sedofoxinol-D.”

“For you, you mean,” Marty snarled. “Chuck, I think I’ve had it for today with all this bullshit,” Marty said, his voice modulating with frustration, rising to a peak before settling on the blue vial before him. “Look, Chuck, buddy, OK, if you want to sit here and feel sorry about everything, please be my guest. But as for me. As for me. I’m having this. All right? Is that OK with you?”

-- For this one you don't need the second "Marty said". I'd rewrite it like this:

“For you, you mean,” Marty snarled, his voice modulating with frustration, rising to a peak before settling on the blue vial before him. “Chuck, I think I’ve had it for today with all this bullshit. Look, buddy, OK, if you want to sit here and feel sorry about everything, please be my guest. But as for me. As for me. I’m having this. All right? Is that OK with you?”

I didn't see anything else that really jumped out.

Well done!

[SquidDNA]

I lost my draft. :/

[Rodimus]

Lestaki: The second and third sentence should probably be joined to make a little easier to follow: “Around them, the other occupants of the dingy bar very deliberately ignored the two men; when the blonde-haired man came, it was wise to.”

Also, too many adverbs can be jarring, adding redundancy.

The blonde haired man looked at him impassively. “Pelar is dead,” he said factually. There wasn’t any concern there, no sadness, just surgical notation of fact.

Here those two adverbs can be done away with because the following sentence lays it out. Or, I guess you could get rid of “factually,” and it would still work. Also, in a dialogue, it’s sometimes not necessary to say, he said adverb, too much. Trust the dialogue to convey more information.

I think a little more white space could also help:

Spoiler

The dark-haired man leaned back, lighting a cigar.

“So, how can I help you?”

Around them, the other occupants of the dingy bar very deliberately ignored the two men; whenever the blonde-haired man came, it was wise to.

The blonde haired man looked at him impassively. “Pelar is dead,” he said, no sadness in his voice, just surgical notation of fact.

The dark-haired man was only a little more moved. “That’s the third this month,” he said, leaning back and sipping his wine with a frown—insofar as the bar had any sophistication, it was all offered to these two men. “You people have run into something too hot for you, yes?”

“That’s not your business.”

“He was a good lad,” the dark-haired man continued. “Damn sharp, and knew his business. Streets made him, didn’t break him. He was one of the few in that respect.”

“He always served with remarkable skill,” the blonde conceded. “And remarkable self-interest.”

“You can trust the self-interested,” the dark man said.

A fractional nod of agreement. “That is correct.” For perhaps the second time in half an hour, he sipped is own wine. Perpetual tension was his given state of existence- it was nothing new.

“Well, he knew the risks,” the first man said. “So, how can I help you?”

The mere arc of an eyebrow was his only reply.

“I know you wouldn’t trouble yourself to come all this way just because one of my commissions was dead,” the dark-haired one said simply.

Those almost babyish yellow eyes weighed him up. Physically, the blonde was uninspiring, lanky and excessively long-fingered. But that meant nothing. Truly, nothing at all. Those child’s eyes couldn’t be read. That was enough.

“No, I wouldn’t,” he said softly. He stretched the silence out for a few more moments, then spoke again. “I believe you have a commission in progress.”

“That is so,” the dark-haired one said. “But I always do. I presume you refer to the one close to completion.”

“Naturally,” the blonde-haired man replied.

The dark one leaned back. “The word is close. Close, not finished. I’d want another two months before that commission would be ready for service, and even then I’d recommend another six in your establishment before she’d be ready for basic fieldwork. You may be pressed, but compromising the quality of your applicants will achieve nothing except hand them more of your men.”

“I know that,” the blonde one said. “That’s one reason why I need her to do one thing, ahead of time. This is a domestic assignment only.”

The dark one frowned. “I don’t like it.”

“You don’t have to,” the blonde one said bluntly. “If she succeeds, she has talent. If not, she would have been no use to us anyway.”

“I understand. Now talk the goal.”

“Twelve and a half thousand to her for taking it on,” the blonde said, ignoring the question for the moment. “Twenty five thousand for each of you, upon receipt of the package.”

“Then I’m not going to like the goal,” the dark one said slowly.

“No,” the other one said slowly. “You aren’t.”

I like the name you picked for the protagonist. Mucho connotation in there. Still the same things to watch for. More white space. Fewer adverbs and those “he said/she said” indicators. Let the dialogue stand on its own more. One thing to think about. Those indicators are generally used to with clarify who said what every once in a while or to modify the tone of a particular line of dialogue. However, in the last part, the guy is holding the protagonist up by her throat. Very little of her part of the dialogue can be modified from just a raspy response. She wouldn’t answer dryly and brush the hair out of her face, for one. Actually one thinks that the conversation might be too long winded for the situation. It’s an indication to the reader you have lost track of your characters, and a similar disconnect will happen for them.

[MetalDragoon83]

Kaito!!!!!

Well, first thing Did I like it?

...Yes.

It read good, and kept a flow, going from one thing to another at the right pace. Though you better be continuing the story cause I want to see what the hell is going on. I like that you are giving only tid-bits to your story, just giving enough information to keep me intrested.

Alrighty now to critisize, o yeah.

1) You could describe how each character is feeling, I read through it and I thought how they might be sounding. Giving them a tone would help this be more tense or sad or whatever. Also I got a little confused at who was talking when, so saying

"What the? You're sure?" asked John, not wanting to believe a long time friend and partner had died.

Reaffirms who is talking and tells the reader what the tone is.

2) You wanted a common line for the waitress? Normally they say "Hello, welcome to Blah. I'm your waitress So & So. Would you like to try our Blah special." At least thet is my experience.

Or you could even have a rough tone to the waitress, like in a bad diner, like:

"Hey, what do ya want?"

3) And now the corrections:

From: "Ah Cole, finally, where've you been, told you to come as fast as possible, didn't I?"
To: "Ah Cole, finally, where've you been. Told you to come as fast as possible, didn't I?"

From: "Let's better sit down for now." said Cole, sitting down face to Robert. A female waitress came. "What would you like, sir?" she said.
To: "We better sit down for now." said Cole, sitting down face to Robert.
A female waitress came. "What would you like, sir?" she said.

Other than those you got a good grasp of the English lang. Trying to sort out its little rules and crap is a pain in the butt, even for an american like me.(even though americans still suck at the english lang.) I even like how the two do talk, not perfect and it shouldn't be either

[Lestaki]

Acknowledged on your points. Dialouge adverbs in particular haunt my every step...

Metaldragoon
Overall, I liked it. The twist at the end was quite funny. The "Ern's mom" story is quite funny, but it doesn't really fit with making these ganstars sound very formidable. I guess they aren't supposed to be, and it's a funny story, but it grates a little for me. Now for the pedantry:

“WHAT!!!”

No need for more than one explanation mark imho, and probably no need for capitals either. And explamation's an explamation.

Walt trailed off wiping away a tear.

Seems a bit to emotional for a mobster, but I guess again it fits with the comedic ones we have here, so I suppose it can stay.

Now Walt started laughing with Dave also.

Nothing horribly wrong, but feels a little clunky. "Now Walt started laughing as well" or something similar would be smoother.

[Kaito]

@sword monkey:

I liked it, nice idea with the copy machine
though these things kind of irrritated me (though I guess they're wanted that way):
-the first 2 characters have nothing with the second in common, in fact they don't even know him
-they talk about blake's death a day before he dies, that gives me the idea that they're from this organisation or whatever it is that's higher than blake, but then again why do they send yet another person to blake then?
-and there were quite some typos :P
anyways nice dialouges and nice story.



@metaldragon:
seems like you like it more than i do ^^
1) yes i do know that problem of mine, and i always try to fix it, need to try harder i guess
2) ok thx
3)
my opinion: I wrote for an hour and just got like 15 lines... o.O

how long do you people write for your badass long stories? o.O

[Rodimus]

Kaito: Best not to worry about length of story and length of time it takes to finish a story. Those things are somewhat superficial. Only thing that can be said is, a story is done when it's done and will only be as long as it needs to be.

[Sword_Monkey]

Kaito, cheers for the review, but the first two characters are the same that appear with Blake, the man is the copy machine guy, and the woman is Clara Thompson, so both Clara, and Ms Thompson, I should have made that clearer.

Also means Clara knows Blake, and Charlie saying he has only met Nlake once means he is going to meet him tomorrow for you know what.

It works out as a subtle and unambiguous form of giving orders, they talk in the past tense, th assassin tries to find out information about the target, and how the job should be pulled off, and the other replies, both try to make it sound like an average conversation.

Basically this all means I have to make it all clearer.

As for typos, oh oh, I wrote it in Word, so they must ahve been sneaky typos, I shall re-read it all.

Thank you Kaito.

[Kaito]

@sword monkey: yes i figured something like that, but it was at all means not clear (to me, at least), just a theory ^^
@rodinus: ok been always like that for me.. when we needed to write essais in school i always had the smallest text, but covering everything... (teacher: write 3 pages at least.. *me writes 1 and a half :x* but the teacher doesn't complain )

[LoCo]

Hmmm it seems we have quite a lot less to deal with. I can't exactly write something up for the guy below me, so I'll do a little more of what I did last time around. Two stories did rather well in my view, but I'll come to that in a minute.

Rodimus

It seems to me you took your own advice a little too far. Yes, the "he said/she said" doesn't have to be there, but every ten or so lines it is helpful to know. Not to mention that while wanting the dialogue to carry itself is a good thing, there is not need to not help it out. A few "Said Marty" would add a little something other than just dialogue, and adding a "Said Marty, a slight frown on his face" or "Declared Chuck" Or ... something to break up the dialogue and give the reader a hint as to how they feel. Expecting their emotions to come from the dialogue alone is expecting a little too much I think.

I got lost when Chuck went to the toilet, because they were talking, but I kind of lost who was talking because they were saying similar things and you didn't have any way to tell who was saying what when unless I counted lines and went "Marty, Chuck, Marty, Chuck..." in my head as I went down. I don't know if it was the lack of descriptive text, or that the characters were so alike, but that's how I ended up reading the rest, which sucked the enjoyment out of reading it.


Lestaki

The dark-haired man leaned back, lighting a cigar. Around them, the other occupants of the dingy bar very deliberately ignored the two men. When the blonde-haired man came, it was wise to. “So, how can I help you?”

That there first line is so broken, I wouldn't be surprised if you put it together with glue. The dark-haired man leaned back, lighting a cigar. With you so far, there is a man, with dark hair, and he is leaning back and lighting a cigar. Around them, the other occupants of .. wait a minute. Around "them"? I thought there was only one guy. Hmm, maybe you will mention the other people soon. the other occupants of the dingy bar very deliberately ignored the two men. Aaahah! So there was another man. Ok, we got two men, one with dark hair and smoking a cigar, who is the other one? When the blond-haired man came, it was wise to. Uuuuummmm. Not sure what that's about. It seems though, that it's wise to come when the blond-haired man does. To come any other time would not be wise. But what about the other man by the dark-haired guy?

Do you see where I'm going with this? It's a fine story if I forget what I read right after I've read it. Otherwise it doesn't make sense. It does improve as you go along, but having that as the start of your story just killed it.

MetalDragoon83

Much better than your last one. I was quite impressed. I didn't get bored, and I didn't get lost. You still overuse capital letters, and exclamationmarks, but on the whole it's a great improvement. My complaints are in the vein of what others have said. I'll use an example someone else used just to push the point further.

“Remember that one contract we took out on Ern’s own Mom?” Now Walt started laughing with Dave also.

Take out "own". If it's Ern's mother, we know it's his own mother. That's like saying "My hand went into my pocket and came out with a gun. I shot him with my own gun.". Complete waste of time to read that extra word, it might have only been a split second of my time, but damn it ... if I wanted it wasted like that, I'd have stared at the wall and turned off my brain for five minutes. It interupts the flow. "Now Walt started laughing with Dave also." ... Drop the also. It's like "own". You already said "with" and "now". You could even kill off the whole line and have "Walt started laughing too." I would like to tell you to forget the word "also" exsists, it's an awkward word and should only be used if you can't use "too" and "aswell". However, if I did this you might actually forget the word and not use it when you should. Just remember that there are other words that mean almost the same thing, and you should only be happy with a word when you are sure that no other word works better in it's place.


Kaito

It's short. This is not a bad thing. I don't think that would have worked had it been longer. However, your story starts in a bar. Not a diner, or a resturant. In a bar, there is no such thing as "sir". Your "waitress" would be a barmaid, however waitress can work so I'm not ganna push that. She might be inclined to say "What would you like?" But not "sir". People aren't that poilite in bar, and barely that poilte in resturants.

You too need to get rid of redundant words, although it's not as big a problem with you.

That was really scary, so he left again and called for backup, Cole, an old friend of his.

That scared him, so he left and called Cole, an old friend.

Using the word "scary" in that way, makes it sound like something a five year old would say. It's a "cute" word in that sentence. He is a PI, he doesn't have backup, normal detectives have backup, but he is a "private" investigator/detective. He can not call for backup, but he can call a friend. You don't have to add "of his" at the end. Who elses friend would he be? And why is he calling someone elses friend when he should be calling his own?

Also, I'd like to add a correction to MetalDragoon83's correction. You both typed out a line, and you both missed a question mark.

'Ah Cole, finally, where've you been, told you to come as fast as possible, didn't I?"

"Ah, Cole. Finally, where've you been? I told you to come as fast as possible didn't I?" -- Still, I don't like the line, it feels bogged down. Why is he asking the new guy what he said? "Ah, Cole. Finally, what took you so long?" sounds worlds better I think.

Sword_Monkey

You seem to have lost a few of us, if not all of us. For me, I thought you had messed up and just put two very short stories together and left it at that. Mentioning Clara's last name would have helped put it together, as well as describing the guy from the first one, and then describing the guy who delivered the copy machine. Maybe have him wearing the same shirt, or a hat. Or having a limp or something to connect the two people. Overall though, both short stories were done well.

Starfisher

It didn't quite have me gripped. I enjoyed it, but there was a subtile something missing at the start. The Bouncer was a great bit, and after that it picked up, it's just a pity that was so close to the end. Perhaps if he had started coughing sooner, but Rob didn't think twice about it untill his mind started going over what happened.

Beelzebuddy

Interesting, nice take on the topic. I enjoyed it a lot, but foudn that at some points it got a bit repetitive. It's getting late here, so I'm not thinking quite as clearly as I'd like which means I can't show you exactly where I mean. However, I'll have a look tomorrow and see if I can't pick out the pieces nicely for you.

[Rodimus]

LoCo. Thanks. I came back to the story after a little break (a necessary thing) and promptly got lost in it. I'll be rewriting it when I done with what I'm doing now. It occured to me that it might be more like a workshop if we went through cycles of rewriting and getting critique.

Also, Thanks Starfisher for the first chip at it. That latter paragraph sounds much better now.

PS
I don't want to give the impression (like through my story) that I want to completely eradicate those little carriers that follow dialogue to make everything clear. They're necessary little buggers.

However, about those nasty dialogue adverbs. A much better writer said what I was trying to say better than I did or could have:

3. Never use a verb other than “said” to carry dialogue.

The line of dialogue belongs to the character; the verb is the writer sticking his nose in. But said is far less intrusive than grumbled, gasped, cautioned, lied. I once noticed Mary McCarthy ending a line of dialogue with “she asseverated,” and had to stop reading to get the dictionary.

4. Never use an adverb to modify the verb “said” . . .

. . . he admonished gravely. To use an adverb this way (or almost any way) is a mortal sin. The writer is now exposing himself in earnest, using a word that distracts and can interrupt the rhythm of the exchange. I have a character in one of my books tell how she used to write historical romances “full of rape and adverbs.”

[Sword_Monkey]

Starfisher

I don't quite know what to make of this, it seems to be a condensed thrill, since its a short story. Normally what would be a flashback and conversation, with slow intense build up of the two men's symptoms til the final rush and then calm after the storm whent he final man begins coughing. That'd be a normal story, instead it happens in quite a short space, I barely had time to guess the infection had spread. So I liked it in that sense.

However it may have been a tad too short, and it doesn't seem to be able to go anywhere else. Plus I crave to know more of the murder/accident, it seems to vere toward accident but you never truly find out.

Overall it left me a bit underwhelmed, not bad as such just too full of potential.

Sholto

Oh Shi- . Woah Loved all of that nice. But the ending scared me alot, I don't like the idea of that kind of thing, might just be my conspiracy theory nature but hey.

As for criticism Sholto, not much as usual, perhaps the talkers and AI could be clearer, you seemd to name the AI quite randomly not quite like Apple would even iFamulus is a bit odd, sounds like an ancient Roman version of the iPod.

I liked the ideas though, very extremely original. Dammit I was menat to be criticising, who am I kidding another great and you say it was a quick story?

[LoCo]

Ummm ... I don't like to beg, but I would like some kind of feedback on my story. I know I'm good, but if you can't find something wrong, at least a "I grovel before you" would do.

[Lestaki]

I never thought I'd see the day... Anyway, I'll help you. Oh, and thanks for the advice on the opening section... that was screwy, looking back at it...

LoCo
Well, it was very powerful. While technically excellent, I can't say I really enjoyed it as a personal thing- it was just too bloody and psycopathical for my tastes. Of course, it was intended to be disturbing, and in that you suceeded with honours. My suggestion would be I'm not too sure of the viewpoint change. We start in the dark with "the brick" and jump halfway through to the other two men, which was of course nesecarry to create the horror effect. Personally, I think it would be better to go with them throughout, as their dialouge seems to set out everything we need to know about Joe anyway, and this would get rid of the sudden change and possibly make Joe's entrance more dramatic, as the audience also believes that he's dead. The ending was excellent and should naturally be kept.

It was the last sound Daniel heard as he slumped to the floor and his blood ran out of him.

Just scanning down, I picked out this setence as lacking something. "And his blood ran out of him" just seems a little weak to me. Perhaps something a little more dramatic like "blood streaming from his wounds", to make it seem more literary and less surgical.

Sholto
I liked the idea a lot, it was very clever, and the whole AI thing was just something that interested me. My one comment would be that I'm not so sure about the piece's actual style. It seems a bit bitty, episodic, with several incidents of the same thing in the same place chronicalling the evolution of a few people's tastes in AI. Personally, I'd prefer something longer in a given time period rather than a series of little moments across the span of several years, but I suppose that's personal preference.

[Sholto]

perhaps the talkers and AI could be clearer, you seemd to name the AI quite randomly not quite like Apple would even iFamulus is a bit odd, sounds like an ancient Roman version of the iPod.

The names were words I liked, and that had some connection to the story. Also Apple are only one of the numerous AI manufacturers, I think, although I never come out and say this in the story. In an earlier revision, Delenda was a Samsung

Delenda means things to be deleted or destroyed. A famulus is a private secretary or attendant. Haecceity (bear with me on this one) is that sense one gets of being in the present tense, the pure experience of a single moment in time. I thought the short-lived AI's would like a name like that. Nepenthe is something (say a drug) capable of making you forget suffering. Something Jack could have used. Finally, Mascaron is a grotesque face on a door knocker. A bit obscure, perhaps, but I liked the idea that Jack ended up as his AI's mask, at least until the AI died.

I'm not so sure about the piece's actual style. It seems a bit bitty, episodic, with several incidents of the same thing in the same place chronicalling the evolution of a few people's tastes in AI. Personally, I'd prefer something longer in a given time period rather than a series of little moments across the span of several years, but I suppose that's personal preference

That's fair comment. I think this is really a comic-book script, written out as a short story. I can see it working in that format better than it does here.

It perhaps needs a bit more to show the jump in time between scenes. Also, the ending is just one of several possible ones, but even this one seems rushed to me. Would be nice to redo it and draw the end out a bit more.

Thanks for the comments. I think I owe someone a crit, but who do I do? The first one?

Sholto

[Starfisher]

Take Beelzebuddy. I was supposed to do him after Rodimus, but I've been in a time sink for the past week.

[Sholto]

Beelzebuddy

Right - I've written everything else you see below, and I realise something - this is going to seem pretty negative! It's well written, with no obvious errors, so I've had to focus on the other stuff. Here we go then:-

There was some interesting stuff here, but it struggled to get out. The main concern for me was that the two people spent time talking about the issues directly - it's more like a philosophical discourse than a story. My preference would be to address the issues obliquely, through some other (metaphorical) subject matter or by having the issues just hanging around in the background, never actually spoken about but clearly on everyone's mind (the elephant in the room approach). That way the reader feels less like he is being lectured to.

You also present all the background as infodump. The two people talk about death and then the narrator jumps in to tell us what happened, and then the two people go back to talking about death again. Try and hide some of the infodump in the conversation.

My other concern (though not such a big one) was that for most of the story the philosophical discussion takes place in a fact-vacuum, which makes it even tougher to follow. I know the reason you do this is for the ending, where it is revealed that neither (?) of the speakers has a physical body any more, but it didn't really give me the kick I was looking for.

With a story like this, I think the best idea is to take some part of your "what if...?" and focus on it. Then have a reverse or an epiphany at the end where one of the characters realises they are completely wrong, or some part of the "what if...?" gets turned on its head. Their perceptions are irrevocably altered, right at the end. The reader is left thinking, "damn that's scary/ nasty/ very unfair/ troubling/ sad" etc. etc. - ie. the reader gets the emotional kick of the character's sudden awakening.

All in all this felt more like two people in your head (your head, not mine) talking about "what would it be like if...?" than a story.

This line stuck out for me

"Hell yes, we're alive. If we can ask the question and not know the answer, the answer's yes."

If this story has a core, it's there. I'm not sure why, and I'm not sure where you go with it, but it's a pretty strong hunch.

Sholto