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[WA 1.5] Numbers You Won't See in the 1.41->1.5 Changelog

  1. 28th Jun 06 10:58 PM #1
    SirNick
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    [WA 1.5] Numbers You Won't See in the 1.41->1.5 Changelog

    Last Update 22.08.06 11:55 PM GMT; Changed title so that this isn't confused with cataloguing the 1.5 -> 1.51 changes. Those'll come in time. Not now, though.

    ****
    Okay, as a code monkey I've been looking through the decompiled .LUAs for 1.5 after several glorious hours of playing tonight.

    Here's some goodies that put the 1.5 changelog into a perspective that can be understood, before there's an outcry of millions of voices to know exactly what's going on. This is not commentary or discussion of balance, but rather a statement of facts and code to quantify statements from the changelog that lacked numbers.

    Some numbers, mainly DPS, are not exactly precise due to sometimes winging the calculations in my head instead of recreating DPS values for each individual accuracy / penetration value, so take them as a general guideline, not specific canon for pure number-crunching.

    Comment and shout out if you spot new changes and the like, or if anything's missing or wrong. Any questions that you want addressed, shout them out in the thread.

    1) Assault Terminator Stun
    -- It's been reduced from to 10% chance per hit from the original value of 100%. Damage has been buffed ~25% as a result.
    Quote Originally Posted by space_marine_thunder_hammer.rgd
    GameData["area_effect"]["weapon_damage"]["modifiers"]["modifier_02"]["modifier"]["probability_of_applying"] = 0.100000
    ["max_damage"] = 135.000000
    ["min_damage"] = 100.000000
    (Previously in 1.41 the damage range was 85.8 to 105.4; penetration values are identical from what I can tell.)
    2) Eldar Long Rifles
    -- Their purpose is to provide utterly absurd morale damage per hit. The Tier-scaling they mention is through replacing their long rifles with a new one with each Infantry Accuracy Upgrade. To see practical damage values for each Rifle, consider that its piercing versus most infantry is ~40%. For practical morale damage per hit, consider that most infantry take 50% of a given weapon's morale damage value. Now multiply by 8 cloaked Rangers.
    Accuracy 100%, setup time 2 seconds, reload time 5 seconds.

    Eldar Long Rifle Stats through Tiers


    3) Sergeant / Aspiring Champion Power Fists and Power Swords
    -- The damage values and armor penetration for Power Swords and Power Fists have been altered across the board so that they're nowhere near the 100+ DPS monsters of yore. In reality, fully buffed Sergeant/AC Power Fists fall somewhere around 30/40 DPS to vehicle_med. Sergeant/AC Power Swords are something like 15/25 DPS tops.
    3a) Space Marine Heroes, Power Swords, and Hero Upgrades
    -- Space Marine Power Swords for their heroes have been reduced in damage output from 150+ DPS down to ~60 DPS. The Librarian does 40 DPS to vehicle_med with his Power Sword, though. The Power Fist upgrade boosts the Force Commander's Power Sword DPS by 20% to ~72 DPS.

    Default Hero Weapons Compared to Power Swords


    4) Changes to Scaling Upgrades for Tier 1 Units
    -- Due to the Tier 1 buff to damage and HP, many upgrades for Tier 1 units were changed so as to not over-upgrade them for later Tiers.

    Each race and their scaling upgrades.


    5) Tankbustas Don't Cloak Anymore
    -- That was a kick in the pants for me, too.
    5a) Tankbustas are Attachable Now
    -- Now you too can do the Big Mek TB Teleport! Zzzap those tanks!
    5b) Tankbusta Rokkit Launcha Reload Time Buff
    -- Tankbustas now reload their Rokkits in 5 seconds instead of 6 seconds, further increasing their damage output.

    6) Dark Reaper Fire-On-The-Move Accuracy Decrease
    -- Dark Reapers now lose 30% of their accuracy on the move, compared to 20% before the patch. This brings their base accuracy (60%) down to 30% on the move.
    Fleet of Foot and You: Fleet of Foot's 50% accuracy drop happens after movement penalties are applied, so FoF Reapers on the move have 15% accuracy.

    Reaper Launcher Data


    7) Curse of the Machine Spirits (also CotMS)
    -- Shuts down all weapons on a vehicle and changes its armor type to infantry_heavy_high. This effect lasts for 20 seconds. It recharges in 45 seconds. It has a range of 40, equivalent to a Heavy Bolter. This does not prevent vehicle movement, though. There is also no chance that the spell will backfire or cause damage to the caster. It is a risk-free ability, unlike Strip Soul or Lightning Arc.
    You cannot target your own units or allies, only enemies. Unverified, but probable that abilities like Strip Soul and Mindwar work on Curse'd vehicles due to those abilities filtering targets by armor class, not unit.
    EDIT: Land Raiders and Baneblades are changed to vehicle_med armor class for the duration of the ability, not infantry_heavy_high. These are the only exceptions. A Squiggoth is not a vehicle and cannot be targeted by CotMS, even though it is repairable.

    CotMS code


    8) Rhino Smoke Launchers
    -- They reduce ranged damage and morale damage taken by 50%, in a radius of 20, for a duration of 30 seconds. The ability recharges in 90 seconds. Don't forget that the bonus stacks with cover in a multiplicative way (i.e. 50% less from Heavy Cover and 50% less from Smoke = 75% less ranged damage total). Two Smoke grenades stack on top of each other to provide -75% ranged damage as well.
    8a) Rhino Troop Capacity
    -- It's been buffed to hold three squads per Rhino. They don't shoot lasguns out the sides, though.
    8b) Rhino Support Cap Usage
    -- Space Marine Rhinos do not use Support Cap. Chaos Rhinos DO use 1 Support Cap.

    9) Imperial Guard Thermo-Plasma Generators Power Gift
    -- IG Thermo Gens now give 100 power when built. Hooray!
    Quote Originally Posted by guard_thermo_plasma.rgd
    GameData["structure_buildable_ext"]["power_gift"] = 100.000000
    10) Vindicare Assassin Exitus Rifle - Hero-Killer, Bloodthirster-Smiter.
    -- We know that it does 1100-1300 damage a hit now. However, there was a little value adjusted in the .LUAs that makes the Vindicare Assassin a must-have in Tier 3/4. Recall that Bloodthirsters and Squiggoths are monster_high armor. Previously, the armor penetration value for the Exitus Rifle against that armor type was 0. Not in 1.5 - it's 100%. With the Exitus Rifle Scope activated, the Assassin has 15 seconds to plug away at that Squiggoth or Bloodthirster at the sound of 1650 - 1950 damage per hit. With a 7-second reload time, that's just enough for two solid shots when that scope is activated. Also, the Exitus has 45 range base, and when the Scope is activated, the range is doubled to a value of 90.
    Quote Originally Posted by guard_exitus_rifle.lua
    GameData["area_effect"]["weapon_damage"]["armour_damage"]["armour_piercing_types"]["entry_10"]["armour_piercing_value"] = 100.000000
    GameData["area_effect"]["weapon_damage"]["armour_damage"]["armour_piercing_types"]["entry_10"]["armour_type"] = Reference([[type_armour\tp_monster_high.lua]])
    11) Ork Waaagh Bonus from Ork Settlement
    -- I don't know how the code works on this one, but the effect is obvious - Orks now begin the game with 15 Waaagh already accumulated, instead of starting from 0 Waaagh and waiting for it to build up to queue their starting Slugga squads.

    12) Stormboy Stikkbombs
    -- They do 75-80 damage guaranteed to all infantry armor types. Range of 20, recharge of 75 seconds, radius of 4, minor disruption about equal to a single Guardsmen/Cultist Grenade. That's it. No stun or anything, just cheap damage and disruption.

    13) Guardsmen HP Adjustments
    -- Guardsmen now have 150 HP per trooper of infantry_med armor. Sergeants add 35 HP and 50 Morale, and has 200 HP. Attached Commisars still boost HP regen from 0.5 HP/second to 3 HP/second. The Tier 1 Morale Upgrade still only adds 15 HP per Guardsman and 100 Morale to squad. Tier 2 Morale Upgrade adds 25 HP and 150 Morale. Body Armor upgrade still adds 50 HP to Guardsmen and 150 HP to Sergeant. Priests still add 100 HP per member of the squad that they are in.
    In other words, compared to the massive health boosts of every other unit in Tier 1 and consequently, Tier 2, Guardsmen became much much more fragile and existing research still gives same health benefits instead of scaling.
    By the way, Cultists in Tier 1 have 155 HP.

    14) Turrets, or "Turrents" to the Layman
    -- They've been reduced in cost and build time considerably. Here's the numbers on them, in case you didn't know.
    Imperial Guard - 90/45 cost, 19 seconds (!)
    Chaos - 110/55 cost, 28 seconds
    Space Marines - 110/55 cost, 22 seconds
    Eldar - 110/50, 27 seconds
    Remember, build times are decreased by 33% if you use two builders. That means IG turrets can be built in 13 seconds.
    Damage is unchanged from 1.41; that means increased-health troops can withstand fire just that much longer.

    15) Hard Caps and You
    -- The following units have hard caps in this patch that did not exist prior to 1.5:
    Land Speeders: 10 max
    SM Rhinos: 3 max
    Eldar Rangers: 1 squad max

    16) Raptor Flamers
    -- Okay, here's a few basic numbers to give an idea of what you get with a Raptor Flamer. They're range 20 with AoE of 10, pie cone 20 degrees wide. ~12 DPS to most infantry targets, 45 morale DPS. Negates health regeneration for 8 seconds. 50/10 cost, 12 second build time. This weapon's role is to provide constant damage and morale damage when chasing dancing squads, and also to provide a high Morale DPS platform when putting the Aspiring Champion on Ranged to utilize his Plasma Pistols. It is comparable in damage to a Tactical Marine Flamer pre-Target Finders, and does 50% more morale damage per Flamer.

    17) Falcon Starcannons
    -- This was touched on in another thread, but here you go, if you click the button.

    Details on Starcannon Change


    18) Chaos Heavy Bolter Standardization
    -- What this means is that Chaos Heavy Bolters do about the same damage output across just about all infantry armor classes - ~28 DPS. This is because instead of multiple penetration values, a penetration of 50% is used for all infantry armor classes except heavy_high (45%) and monster_med (37%). Commander penetration is 18.5%, building_low is 20%, building_med 6.4% and building_high 3.55%. Damage is 31-38, range 35, accuracy 65%, setup time 1.5 seconds, reload time 0.4 seconds, 40/10 cost and 12-second build time.
    18a) Chaos Heavy Bolters and Heavy Weapons Upgrade
    -- Chaos Heavy Bolters have their damage increased by 50% when the Heavy Weapons upgrade is researched, in addition to the stated effects of an increased weapons capacity. No other weapon is affected in this way. This brings damage output from 28 DPS up to 42 DPS. Engaging Berzerk Fury brings that damage output up further from 42 DPS to 58 DPS. For reference, Space Marine Heavy Bolters do 40 DPS before Target Finders and 60 DPS after Target Finders.

    19) Squiggoth Big Shootas
    -- The changelog states that the building and vehicle damage of the Squiggoth's Big Shootas were decreased. This was accomplished by changing the armor penetration values of the Big Shootas towards vehicle and building armor types to zero. Squiggoth Big Shootas now deal 2.5 DPS to all targets besides light infantry and monster_med. This is in stark contrast to 1.41 DPS output such as 120 DPS to vehicles per Big Shoota.
    19a) Squiggoth Zzzap Gun
    -- Most notably, reload time has increased from 2 seconds to 3 seconds. This reduces DPS values considerably. Damage output per hit to nearly all target types has increased, though.
    Base damage is 1440-1760, meaning 1600 damage on average. 75% accuracy, 3-second reload. 400 DPS base. Penetration of 50% versus all infantry besides monster_med and heavy_high, which has 17.5%. 12.5% piercing versus commanders. 30%/25%/20% piercing versus both vehicles_low, _med, and _high, in addition to buildings_low, _med, and _high respectively. 10% piercing versus monster_high.
    Damage per hit is now boosted considerably, and DPS values are near 1.41 values due to reload time increase. To compare DPS values, multiply new base DPS (400) by AP value versus armor type of your choice.
    19b) Squiggoth Gore (Melee)
    -- Unchanged.

    20) Waaagh! Banner Changes
    -- Nerdinheimer (and Chris, and the rest of the uncredited kind community) kindly brought light to this - they're well-buffed. Here's some numbers for HP. Format is unupgraded / Banner2/ Banner3.

    1.41: 800/1475/1975
    1.5: 1250/1925/2600

    Unupgraded Banner turret damage has been boosted to 62-76, up from 50.4-61.6. Overall buff of ~21%. Also benefits from More Dakka by 15% damage boost.
    Upgraded Banner Big Shootas and Rokkits are unchanged; All Ork Building and HQ Shootas are unchanged as well. This means that Tier 1 units can withstand more fire from Ork buildings as well.

    21) Mine Fields Damage Boost
    -- Damage has been doubled from original value of 90-110 to new value of 180-220. Piercing values are identical to 1.41; that is, about 50% for most targets and 100% versus vehicles. Those are independent of armor classes - even vehicle_high takes full damage from mines. IG mines only do 50% damage to vehicles though - strange.
    You only get 10 explosions max per Mine Field. Reload time is about 4 seconds. Build time is 30 seconds, cost 50/50.
    It's definately worth looking into with creative placement of turrets if you have the power.

    22) Whirlwind Minimum Range
    -- It used to be thought that Whirlwinds had no minimum range and as such could fire at troops right next to it. It's widely thought that perhaps this should have been addressed in 1.5 Think no more; it's always had a minimum range of 12.
    Quote Originally Posted by space_marine_missile_battery.lua
    GameData["max_range"] = 90.000000
    GameData["min_range"] = 12.000000
    23) Obliterators and Their Weapons
    -- I don't play Chaos and I haven't gotten past Tier 1 in Skirmish. I haven't even used an Obliterator, much less in 1.5; I've only watched replays. I think that I've got a handle on their weaponry, though.

    How Sir Nick Thinks They Work

    Nifty 1.5 Changes to Obliterators


    24) Killa Kan Big Shoota's Accuracy Buff
    -- The changelog mentions that the Killa Kan's Big Shoota's accuracy has been buffed to 70% from the old 1.41 value of 40%. This boosts its DPS by 75% across the board, except where it has zero penetration (against only building_high). The Killa Kan's accuracy penalty when moving is unchanged at a figure of 10%. This means now that you'll only lose 3-7 DPS when moving, and infantry targets now receive ~45 DPS whereas vehicles now receive ~30 DPS. You can run the numbers yourself over at the old DPS charts - those are just guidelines. Compared to a Rokkit Launcha (which is unchanged stat-wise as far as I can tell) you can do very solid constant AV and AB damage with a Big Shoota, making the unchanged Killa Kan Rokkits even less of an attractive upgrade than they are now.

    25) Banshee Building Damage Changes
    -- Banshee Power Sword penetration values versus building_low and building_med armor classes used to be 35% and 20% respectively. In 1.5 those values are now 20% and 10%. For easy DPS calculation that translates to a ~40% reduction in damage to building_low and a 50% reduction in damage to building_med. Combined with receiving lesser buffs from upgrades (reference item 4d), building damage is much less of an issue with lone Banshee squads.

    26) Land Speeders, Assault Cannons, and You
    -- This is a long one, so it's spoiler'd for you.

    Land Speeder Assault Cannon Buffs


    27) Tactical Space Marines, Missile Launchers, and You
    -- Again, a long one, so spoiler'd.

    Missile Launcher vehicle_med Penetration Buff


    28) Space Marine Sergeant Plasma Pistols
    -- Unchanged from 1.41. They are still a downgrade in DPS.

    29) Vypers, Missile Launchers, and You
    -- The only change made to the Vyper missile launcher was the fact it has a disruption radius of 4, with equivalent force to a Hellfire Dreadnought's missile, and it will only throw units away at a 15-25 degree angle from point of impact. Just keep in mind that the Missile Launcher does about as much damage to HQs as it does to vehicle_med, and that to building_low Vypers do nearly full damage per hit. Base damage 190-233, 93.3/37.3/41.5% piercing versus building_low, _med, _high; 64/48/20% piercing versus vehicle_low, _med, _high; absolutely pants damage versus everything else. 3 second reload, 35 range, 85% accuracy, no decrease on the move.

    30) Scout Snipers in 1.5 and You
    -- Scout Sniper Rifles have been buffed in damage in 1.5. Here are some facts associated with that.

    Sniper Rifle Code and Fun Facts


    31) Mega-Armoured Nobs and Morale
    -- MANz now rally at 50 morale instead of 150 as before. They will only spend a minimum of 5 seconds broken now.

    32) Furious Charge
    -- Furious Charge in 1.5 enables charge modifiers for Cultists, CSMs, and their Aspiring Champions, boosts their base speed by 20%, and boosts their melee damage by 25%. Charge modifiers are a bit lengthier; click the spoiler.

    Hard Numbers about Furious Charge and Its Modifiers


    33) Chaos Taint and why they say you should "Fear It"
    -- Here's the properties of Chaos Taint.

    Chaos Taint and its Function


    34) Big Mek Mega Blasta
    -- It used to be in 1.41 that the BM's Mega Blasta did ~44-55 damage per shot, reduced significantly by armor piercing. That stank, quite honestly.
    In 1.5 there was a nifty damage buff - the Mega Blasta now does 144-255 damage per hit. 2 second reload, no fire on move, no setup time, 60% accuracy, radius of 5, 0.05 morale damage (ha!), min damage value 10. Not sure if it throws or not, but I think it does based on replays I've seen. Someone help me here.

    Armor Piercing Values


    It does mighty fine damage to infantry - after piercing is factored in, it does 50-70 damage a shot to heavy_high and 75-115 damage/shot to heavy_med, for example. That's every 2 seconds, so that's almost the damage output of a Basilisk! (Basilisk rounds do 211-455 damage to infantry_heavy_high, 175-375 damage / round to infantry_heavy_med every six seconds.)

    35) Killa Kan Rokkit Launchas
    -- The reload time has been reduced from 5 seconds to 4 seconds. Awesome. Everything else is unchanged. This amounts to an effective 25% to DPS.
    The Rokkit Launcher does mighty fine damage per shot - 340-odd to vehicle_med and building_high, for example. Take your current 1.41 DPS values, multiply by 8.333, and there's your average damage per hit. Saves you some math, there.
    Props to Slow_Runner on this one.

    36) Kasrkin Heavy Weapons Changes
    -- Karskin Grenade Launchers were reduced in damage by 30% and Plasma Guns by 50%. Weapons Specialization now benefits those weapons, though, intending to multiply those new damage values by 2 (a buff of 100% to new values). However, this is not so -- in-game caps on a single damage buff prevent any modifier to damage capabilities from exceeding 150%.
    In practice, this means that Weapons Specialization grants only a 50% buff to Kasrkins, so the end result after the buff yields a final 1.5 damage capacity of 105% for the Grenade Launcher and 75% for the Plasma Guns.

    37) Orbital Bombardment Damage Changes
    -- Armor-piercing towards building_med and building_high was reduced from 100% to 25%. This effectively quarters damage output.

    How Orbital Bombardment Works



    ******
    So, that's a few of the major things that I could identify. More to come as we parse the .LUAs more.

    A final word: If you want to join the club and be able to look at these .LUA files yourself and see the code that I'm seeing, make it a priority to get Spooky's RGD Extractor and Cucc's RGDEdit program. Search on the forums for them - they're over in Adeptus Modificatus. Use Spooky's to extract the data files from your WXPData.sga file in your "WXP" folder in your DoW root directory. Then play around with opening files using Cucc's RGDEdit. You'll get a feel for it. I use this method rather than the Attribute Editor because for one, I couldn't get the AE to open the 1.5 files, and two, it's more convenient for finding specific files in addition to less load time when opening up.
    Last edited by SirNick; 22nd Aug 06 at 3:54 PM.
    Handy Links for DoW Numbers (DPS, stats in general)
    Dawn of War Player's Guide Wiki -- It's got it all!
    Official Super-Cool Important Dark Crusade .LUAs - Thanks Buggo!
    Slow_Runner's List of Everything Dark Crusade 1.11
    Slow_Runner's DC DPS Charts, Organized by Race/Unit
    Excedrin's WA Unit Statistics Calculator, DPS Charts
    Sir Nick's List of Undocumented WA 1.5 Changes
  2. 29th Jun 06 12:13 AM #2
    Nerdinheimer
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    Thanks Sir Nick!

    [Edited to get rid of clutter]
    Last edited by Nerdinheimer; 29th Jun 06 at 3:53 AM.
  3. 29th Jun 06 12:20 AM #3
    SirNick
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    I'm not sure of how the code works, but it basically means that you start the game right from the get-go with 15 Waaagh accumulated, so you can queue up 3 Sluggas and not have to wait. OP edited to mention this.

    The cloaking thing is important because it means that Tankbustas cannot circumvent a large mass of infantry to approach a vehicle from behind. This is a major concern in massing-heavy team games where the infantry screens major AV like Sentinels.

    There's also a set of researches for the Orks for "tougher_orks" which give a base bonus of 50, 75, 100 HP or different values to most Orks, which supposedly comes from the Pile O' Guns and costs 100/50 to research. I sure haven't found that in the game, but I suspect that that's a component in what buffs Shootas and Sluggas for Tier 2.
  4. 29th Jun 06 12:50 AM Modding Senior Member Dawn of War Senior Member  #4
    Grabnutz
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    Added to the sticky in balance issues, cheers
  5. 29th Jun 06 3:28 AM #5
    Slow_Runner
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    Ok, all the lua guys out there, as I'm going away for a bit (and even if I wasn't, I'm not that big a lua guy, I just read the luas that I get my hands on) please dig through all the luas and find out what exactly was changed. Relic has a tendency to miss a few things when doing the changelogs, so please get all the info out on what exactly was changed this time and post it here. Others, please try and keep this thread clear of clutter so it's easy to see what exactly was changed without going through a lot of posts. Also, getting the luas in plain text files (ie. luas ) would be sweeto so that those of us not so very familiar with the AE could go through the stuff ourselves.

    Good job so far, SirNick. Keep it up! If indeed you would be kind enough to edit the first post to include all the other unmentioned changes etc. that come up, that would be superb.
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  6. 29th Jun 06 4:11 AM #6
    Nerdinheimer
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    Will Machine Spirit work on Vehicle_High?
  7. 29th Jun 06 4:18 AM #7
    durruti
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    sirnick, accuracy_reduction_when_moving is based on 1, not on the weapons accuracy. -> accuracy 0.6 and reduction 0.6 will result in troops not shooting on the move.
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  8. 29th Jun 06 5:42 AM #8
    Squad Walker
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    Kewl notes about the vindicare... I'm not an IG player, but if he's as badass as should be, he should be able to drop big scary monsters w/ a few good shots IMO.

    (still can't drop a landraider tho... )
  9. 29th Jun 06 6:00 AM #9
    The_Guardman
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    Now we will see if the AssTermy are better base basher whit theire +25% damage...
    All heil Gygax.

    "Cry the Paladin for his mentor, cry the Succubus for her father."
    Thanks again for all of the hours of fun you have give me.
  10. 29th Jun 06 6:43 AM #10
    SpaceMarineJoe
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    WoTE isn t all that amazing... its like 14 seconds every once in awhile and its really not that great on ATs who don t die fast to begin with. Some people have tried to toute it very highly from doing labs under ideal circumstances but in team games(where its most likely to show up) its definitely not all that amazing. In 1v1 usually you cannot afford both libarian and machines and I prefer my dreads/hellfires and now the rhinos and LS seem to owns it up too.

    Also when did ATs get +25% dmg?
  11. 29th Jun 06 6:50 AM #11
    MoschBoy
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    WoTE isn t all that amazing... its like 14 seconds every once in awhile and its really not that great on ATs who don t die fast to begin with. Some people have tried to toute it very highly from doing labs under ideal circumstances but in team games(where its most likely to show up) its definitely not all that amazing. In 1v1 usually you cannot afford both libarian and machines and I prefer my dreads/hellfires and now the rhinos and LS seem to owns it up too.

    Also when did ATs get +25% dmg?
    thats directly contrary to everything i experienced.... maybe 1.5 brought some librarian changes i didnt notice?
  12. 29th Jun 06 7:18 AM Dawn of War II Senior Member Dawn of War Senior Member  #12
    Hirmetrium
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    Chaos Space Marines

    * Standardized Chaos Space Marine Heavy Bolter damage and reload time
    SirNick can you check what this means? does it mean their as powerful as the SM counterparts now?
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  13. 29th Jun 06 8:06 AM #13
    Fuzzle
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    I posted this in the patch thread but figured I'd post it here too since I liek spamming.

    Some rhino changes that weren't mentioned in the changelog was that it no longer takes up vehicle cap but has a limit of 3, and can carry 3 squads instead of just 1.

    http://scrap.5elements.net/relic00016.jpg
  14. 29th Jun 06 8:09 AM #14
    BeserkWraithlor
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    1) Assault Terminator Stun
    -- It's been reduced to 10% chance per hit. Damage has been buffed ~25% as a result.
    Thanks for the numbers Sirnick! Looks like those AT finally got there nerf.
  15. 29th Jun 06 9:30 AM #15
    SirNick
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    Okay, OP updated with Rhino information and a tidbit about Curse of the Machine Spirits with regards to Baneblades and Land Raiders - they become vehicle_med armor when cursed, not infantry_heavy_high. Their weapons still turn off though.

    With regards to accuracy reduction, can I get a second on the subtraction issue durruti brought up? I've always been convinced that reduction was based off of accuracy, since weapons that aren't supposed to fire on the move have an "accuracy_reduction_when_moving" value of 1.00, implying a 100% reduction. I construed that as a value of, say, 0.3 being a 30% reduction of that accuracy.

    Can someone point me towards the code which says this? Because here's the code I'm showing:

    Quote Originally Posted by accuracy_moving_reduction_weapon_modifier.lua
    GameData["application_type"] = Reference([[type_modifierapplicationtype\tp_mod_apply_to_weapon_type.lua]])
    GameData["exclusive"] = false
    GameData["modifier_class_name"] = Reference([[type_modifier\tp_modifier.lua]])
    GameData["probability_of_applying"] = 1.000000
    GameData["target_type_name"] = ""
    GameData["usage_type"] = Reference([[type_modifierusagetype\tp_mod_usage_multiplication.lua]])
    GameData["value"] = 1.000000
    I'm not doubting that that may be the case, just want to get a second from the Parliament on that issue.
  16. 29th Jun 06 10:16 AM #16
    Blktgr
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    Haven't got a chance to play yet but i was wondering if eldar platforms got any changes? Looking forward to playing with this patch tonight.
  17. 29th Jun 06 11:04 AM #17
    Weavern
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    Look if this turns into a whine thread I'm going to start warning and deleting the lot of these posts. This thread is to showcase the actual value changes and get some snazy lua values while slow is out. Behave.
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  18. 29th Jun 06 12:35 PM #18
    a1ph4riu5
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    Can anyone confirm that Oblits haven't been changed other than the movement penalty? It was the first thing I looked for ingame and the Lascannons seem to be stronger against buildings? Perhaps I'm imagining it, but they seem to be doing quite a chunk of damage per hit.
  19. 29th Jun 06 1:27 PM #19
    BeserkWraithlor
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    Can anyone confirm that Oblits haven't been changed other than the movement penalty? It was the first thing I looked for ingame and the Lascannons seem to be stronger against buildings? Perhaps I'm imagining it, but they seem to be doing quite a chunk of damage per hit.
    I did not play the 1.5 yet, but in the last patch, theres a bug for Oblits where they shoot TWICE with there lascannons instead of once, doubling the damage. WHat people do is make oblits walk and then press the STOP button a second later, making them shoot twice. MAybe they removed the bug or not, or they buffed oblit damage.
  20. 29th Jun 06 2:12 PM Dawn of War Senior Member  #20
    Troubleshooter
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    The 2-shot Obit las cannon was a grapical artifact from what I saw... not hitting twice, just causeing the Las cannon animation to jump.
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  21. 29th Jun 06 2:18 PM #21
    LordAba
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    Only one ranger squad? There goes my idea of having hundreds of rangers dancing around...
  22. 29th Jun 06 2:23 PM #22
    durruti
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    um, sirnick, that's a modifier you posted, which can be applied to accuracy_reduction_when_moving through research, an ability or directly to a squad in different situations. it says absolutely nothing about how the reduction is applied to base accuracy.

    Code:
    ----------------------------------------
-- File: 'weapon\weapon.nil'
-- Created by: AttributeEditor v2.0
-- Note: Do NOT edit by hand!
-- (c) 2001 Relic Entertainment Inc.

GameData = Inherit([[]])
MetaData = InheritMeta([[]])

GameData["accuracy"] = 0.00000
GameData["accuracy_reduction_when_moving"] = 0.00000
GameData["area_effect"] = Reference([[tables\area_effect_table.lua]])
GameData["attack_priorities"] = Reference([[tables\type_armour_table.lua]])
GameData["cost"] = Reference([[tables\time_cost_table.lua]])
GameData["death_motion_value"] = ""
GameData["fire_cost"] = Reference([[tables\cost_table.lua]])
GameData["melee_weapon"] = false
GameData["reload_show_progress"] = false
GameData["reload_time"] = 0.00000
GameData["setup_time"] = 0.00000
GameData["show_in_reinforce"] = true
GameData["ui_effective_against"] = Reference([[tables\text_table.lua]])
GameData["ui_hotkey_name"] = ""
GameData["ui_info"] = Reference([[tables\ui_info_table.lua]])
GameData["ui_info"]["icon_name"] = "space_marine_icons/upgrade"
GameData["weapon_spawned_event_name"] = ""


MetaData["$METADATATAG"] = {desc = [[]], type = 7, category = [[]], dispval = [[]], isLocked = false, }
MetaData["$METACOLOURTAG"] = 
{

}
MetaData["accuracy"] = {desc = [[Accuracy of this weapon]], type = 1, category = [[]], dispval = [[]], min = -340282346638528860000000000000000000000.000, max = 340282346638528860000000000000000000000.000, }
MetaData["accuracy_reduction_when_moving"] = {desc = [[How much the accuracy is reduced when the unit is moving]], type = 1, category = [[]], dispval = [[]], min = -340282346638528860000000000000000000000.000, max = 340282346638528860000000000000000000000.000, }
    there's the only bit of info about accuracy reduction in the *.luas, the code is probably in luabind.dll/luaconfig.dll, not sure...

    btw, slow_runner, you might want to add the caster damage for both soul strip and lightning arc to you wa list: 300 everytime you use the ability. (its not since 1.5)
    Last edited by durruti; 29th Jun 06 at 2:37 PM.
  23. 29th Jun 06 3:08 PM #23
    Slow_Runner
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    Right-o, I cleared up the thread. A lot. This thread is, as Weavern pointed out, about showcasing the changes not in the official changelog, not to go all whiny about how the changes affect balance.

    Next one to try and derail the thread with balance whines will start getting not-so-happy PMs.

    Oh, and durruti, you mean morale damage for the caster or... ?
  24. 29th Jun 06 3:14 PM #24
    durruti
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    yup, its from a second backfire possibility in the ability.luas (don't ask me why there are 2...) didn't notice it before 1.5 cause my command squad was morale immune...
  25. 29th Jun 06 4:22 PM Dawn of War Senior Member  #25
    White_Pointer
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    Remember, build times are decreased by 33% if you use two builders. That means IG turrets can be built in 13 seconds.
    Have you actually tested that out or are you just making an assumption? I was almost positive that Techpriests don't actually build any faster with 2 of them building a structure...or is that just for repairing? Techpriests are already the fastest builders and repairers in the game, I didn't think adding another made any difference (I know that's certainly the case with repairing, not 100% sure on building though).

    White_Pointer
  26. 29th Jun 06 6:14 PM #26
    SpaceMarineJoe
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    Tech priest seems to build slower from what I have seen. Gens and LPs feel incredibly longer than other races.
  27. 29th Jun 06 10:04 PM #27
    SirNick
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    Firstly, Durruti, thank you very much for the clarification on accuracy. That's invaluable knowledge for the community and I appreciate the code snippets that you've provided.

    Secondly, with regards to multiple-builder build times, I have had the experience and others have labbed that build speed is increased by 50% when a second builder is added. (The effect of a 50% faster build speed is a building being built in 2/3 the listed time, optimally). Forced Labor triples the build rate of a Heretic, so a Chaos Barracks that takes 57 seconds to build will only take 19. It's not known (to my knowledge) how builders from other races interact when building another race's structures, but my intuition tells me that build speeds are identical since they're coded into the cost of the building itself.

    I think that the reason that it feels slower for Techpriests to be building things is that most other race's production buildings are built faster, and that other races can mass builders much easier. Orks seem to have competitive times with IG. Generator and Listening Post build times seem to be standardized across races.

    I've just labbed in a Skirmish game that IG turrets do indeed go up in 13 seconds with two workers on it, so that's working well. It'll take a lab game to see how, say, a grot squad (which counts as multiple builders) builds an IG turret and if it takes 13 seconds for them too.

    Thing with Techpriests is that most IG structures and vehicles only allow 1 repairer on it, except for the HQ which can be repaired by all 3 Techpriests. Since the Techpriests repair at 60 HP per second anyhow, three of them on an HQ will repair at a staggering 180 HP per second. Sweet.

    OP now addresses Raptor Flamers, Chaos Heavy Bolters, Falcon Starcannons, Squiggoth, and invites others to join in on the .LUA-parsing action.
    Last edited by SirNick; 30th Jun 06 at 1:13 AM.
  28. 30th Jun 06 7:46 AM Dawn of War II Senior Member Dawn of War Senior Member  #28
    Hirmetrium
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    thanks nick, its good to know chaos marines are much better now
  29. 30th Jun 06 11:02 AM #29
    Briarus
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    The 2-shot Obit las cannon was a grapical artifact from what I saw... not hitting twice, just causeing the Las cannon animation to jump.
    i played lab games last night and indeed this artifact is still there for the oblits and does no extra damage.
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  30. 30th Jun 06 11:41 AM Dawn of War Senior Member  #30
    Troubleshooter
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    Yep... I labbed it too... its a grapical error, no double damage.
  31. 30th Jun 06 12:05 PM #31
    r108
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    Webway healing now stacks. Or at least the graphic shows for it to.
  32. 30th Jun 06 12:11 PM #32
    LordAba
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    One thing I haven't found is if the new Machine Spirit spell works on the squig. It's sort of a vehicle/demon hybrid thingie, and it could have an impact on larger/longer games.
  33. 30th Jun 06 12:29 PM #33
    Demon_Eyes
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    Squiggoth is the same armor type as the landraider, it will function in the same way as noted in the first post.
  34. 30th Jun 06 12:49 PM #34
    tl998
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    Squiggoth has monster_high armor. LR has veh_high armor.
  35. 30th Jun 06 9:11 PM #35
    Nerdinheimer
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    Can anyone confirm or deny that Kan is reduced to infantry_high by curse of machine spirit? There seems to be some confusion about it in another thread. I assume that Kan is effected from the specificty of SirNick's post, but just wanted to double check. Thanks.
  36. 30th Jun 06 9:49 PM #36
    SirNick
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    The answer is yes.

    CotMS changes the armor type of a vehicle from its type_armour value to its type_armor_2 value. Does this code work for you?
    Quote Originally Posted by ork_killa_kan.lua
    GameData["type_ext"]["type_armour"] = Reference([[type_armour\tp_vehicle_high.lua]])
    GameData["type_ext"]["type_armour_2"] = Reference([[type_armour\tp_infantry_heavy_high.lua]])
    CotMS does not work on the Squiggoth or Bloodthirster because they are monster_high armor. The reason a Squiggoth might seem like a vehicle is because it is repairable.

    The IG answer to a Squiggoth or Bloodthirster lies not in CotMS, but in the 1200 dmg/shot Vindicare Assassin's Exitus Rifle with its 100% piercing versus monster_high and beyond ridiculous range.
  37. 30th Jun 06 10:26 PM #37
    Nerdinheimer
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    The changelog says Waugh Banners have gone up 25% HP, but the actual changes are:

    1.41: 800/1475/1975
    1.5: 1250/1925/2600

    so, that's a % increase of:

    56%/31%/32%

    Dunno about the attack increase tho.

    [EDIT: Yay, I'm faaaamous! Although I must admit I think it was Chris that spotted it first]
    Last edited by Nerdinheimer; 1st Jul 06 at 3:36 AM.
  38. 1st Jul 06 1:14 PM #38
    Dryden
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    have a question... Shees dmg vs bui_low and bui_med was decreased. Does anyone know exact numbers?
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  39. 1st Jul 06 1:20 PM #39
    gapottberg
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    6) Dark Reaper Fire-On-The-Move Accuracy Decrease
    -- Dark Reapers now lose 30% of their accuracy on the move, compared to 20% before the patch. This brings their base accuracy (60%) down to 30% on the move.
    THOUGHT: From what I understand, Fleet of Foot reduces Reaper base accuracy by 50% (down to .3), so the .3 reduction while moving will result in Reapers having zero accuracy when on the move with FoF. Shout out if this isn't the case.
    When dealing with decimals, you combine them by mutliplication, not addition or subtraction.

    Example: A 50% reduction in the accuracy of a DR from a base of 60% yeilds a new accuracy of 30% to standing DR due to FoF penalty (i'm asumming FoF affects troops when they stand still).

    .50 x .60 = 30% reduction from base

    .60 base - .30 reduction = 30% accuracy while standing w/FoF

    If the normal reduction of 30% for moving also applies when the FoF DR's are moving then it would be mutlipled by their already modified accuracy (which is is now 30%) yeliding a newly modified accuracy of 21% when DR's are running and FoF is enabled.

    .30 x .30 = 9% reduction to base

    .30 base - .09 reduction = 21% accuracy for DR w/FoF while moving


    If someone can veryify that DR are indeed damaging while moving w/ FoF then this is the most like accuracy rating...(asumming the game designers followed the basic rules for mutliplying decimals)

    BTW I am a math/science teacher if you were wondering...
  40. 1st Jul 06 9:14 PM #40
    SpaceMarineJoe
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    Wait a minute... didn t WWs always have a minimum range? As I recalled they could never shoot at someone beside them and infact I thought it use to be 17 minimum range?
  41. 1st Jul 06 9:44 PM #41
    SirNick
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    Oh, snap.

    Well, there's a mistake - min range does indeed seem to originally be 12 way back when. My bad. Cried "Wolf," there.

    Edits made.

    Thing about additive FoF is more related to the revelation that accuracy_reduction_when_moving is straight up subtracted from the accuracy value, according to durruti and other modders. I previously thought that it was the multiplicative thing, myself, but I'm not sure - hence the thought on Dark Reapers.
  42. 1st Jul 06 11:09 PM #42
    SpaceMarineJoe
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    Ya thought your number was kinda confusing there cause all others who get a -30% accuracy means its -30% from the total of 100%.
  43. 2nd Jul 06 9:48 AM #43
    SpaceMarineJoe
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    Hey Nick, when you get a chance maybe give us the new numbers on the new OB and what exactly is different about the oblits? Also I have never seen a DPS list for the oblits, there seems to only be one listed weapons DPS chart in dow.lerp for oblits, but they got so many different weapons.

    Thx in advance
  44. 2nd Jul 06 11:39 AM #44
    Hello_Moto
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    yeah i would greatly appreciate the new numbers on the nerfed OB strike. Perhaps it will shed some light as to what it is effective on now seeing as anything i cast it on doesnt experience a lot of damage.

    I agree that the OB should have been nerfed but i reckon Relic went a little OTT on it.

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  45. 2nd Jul 06 12:56 PM #45
    SirNick
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    Okay, OP updated with numbers on Obliterator weapons.

    Jinkies! That took a while to do, with all that proofreading.

    Does anyone know how the stat "armour_piercing" by itself relate into the armor-type-specific armor piercing values? That knowledge could greatly revolutionize DPS values worldwide, and also illuminate the next point raised regarding Orbital Bombardment.

    Orbital Bombardment, I don't too much about specifically. The way the ability seems to work is that the first ability activates several child abilities, and each child is one strike from the Orbital Bombardment.

    There's 14 individual blasts. They have radius 10 and do 405-480 damage. The ability lists an "armour_piercing" value of 100.0, and then goes on to list just a few class-specific armor types. I think that those specific types override the 100% piercing, perhaps. Just a theory.

    The big 1.5 change was that an extra class-specific armor piercing value was added for building_high and building_med (it wasn't there before). The value is 25, that is, 25% damage.

    So, as a non-SM player, I don't know how much damage OB is doing right now, but if it seems that it's only doing ~120 damage per hit to HQs and buildings, then it seems that OB has been reduced to 25% damage against those targets in 1.5.

    All other damage is identical. For the most part, the armor piercing values give 20-25% damage to infantry. Vehicles aren't listed, so I think they take the full 400-odd damage per hit.
  46. 2nd Jul 06 4:49 PM #46
    durruti
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    you're right on that, sirnick. armour_piercing would be used for any type_armour a weapon can be used against that has no specific armour_piercing_value in the weapons armor_piercing_table. its no minimum value of some sort...

    thread

    edit: and gapottberg, sure you are right on the maths part but the game interprets accuracy_reduction_when_moving as an absolute value. tested with 0.6 accuracy and 0.6 accuracy_reduction_when_moving. furthermore the accuracy modifier used for fof is applied to a squad, actually its the entity_accuracy_modifier... (as opposed to direct weapon modifiers) either way its valued in after the subtraction. hence accuracy for dark reapers on the move is (0.6 - 0.3) x 0.5 ... 0.15. i tested all this with troops that have a movement shooting animation.
    Last edited by durruti; 2nd Jul 06 at 7:17 PM.
  47. 2nd Jul 06 5:07 PM #47
    SpaceMarineJoe
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    Wow thx for going through all the trouble to find that out for us nick You are great!

    I never understood the weapons group thing, I am guessing the armour piercing value is suppose to mean %? That would mean the lascannon has really really low dmg though, with 35 base DPS, and a 29% piercing value against vehicle low? Thats a measely 11ish DPS? Thats horrible when compared to just about anything else.

    New question, was just wondering if you knew what all the new scaling %'s were. I only know that tacs now get 35% HP/dmg from there tier 2 upgrades, and ASMs get 25%. Does that mean terminators also only get 35% cause they were already kinda weak for a tier 3 unit already. And more importantly, has the ATs bionics % changed too? Or do ATs/termies still get +65% HP?

    Also do orks still get a 35% on top of the improved tier 1 troops? That would be nice for orks and I couldn t imagine them reducing the scaling for orks without buffing base nobz first.

    Edit: Think I have my answer from Santi
    http://forums.relicnews.com/showpost...8&postcount=14
    Maybe you could add that into your OP.
    Last edited by SpaceMarineJoe; 2nd Jul 06 at 5:54 PM.
  48. 2nd Jul 06 7:01 PM #48
    ImmortalChaos
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    So my oblits will fire the correct weapon if they are in range of 30? Does that mean that the only reason we thaught oblits only shot the lascannon was because it was only shooting it because they were at max range? Im gonna have to DS some near some SMs and see if they shoot the plasma, likewise with other inf types.

    I propose they should give all the weapons a range of 35 and make the correct weapons to their damage to their repective armour type.
  49. 2nd Jul 06 8:21 PM #49
    Question
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    What is the assault canon DPS again?
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  50. 5th Jul 06 2:52 AM #50
    Valis
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    Please say somethng about falcons and their star cannons. Please, please, pretty please....

    Were they nerfed or buffed?
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