Guardsmen - The Real Issue: Morale

[GRIM Ripper]

hmmm, i thought their econ bonuses over other races were LESSENED, but not removed... i could be wrong. at the very least, it is a fact that their power upgrade is cheaper at 150/50. also, i usually have 4-6 gens by the time i get into T2... in my games with IG (granted its only the 1300-1400 level right now) so far power has never been an issue.

also, i wouldnt exactly include buildings durability in with econ, that is a whole seperate issue. the fact is, their LP2s cost less power then every other race, which means it is easier to get their econ rolling WHILE teching at a solid rate.

also, 250/150 for T2 is the same as every other race more or less. chaos T2 costs 300/100 and marines is also 250/150.

and finally, it is also the least costly for IG to tech to T3, as they ONLY need a mech shop.... i have been able to make it to T3 in at least half my autos so far.

It's kind of pointless LP2ing all your points when you have say, only 4 points because your opponent can match your econ simply by capping critical locations and relics

not really... you can either sit their with half the econ or spend the power to even it out. the whole point is that you dont have to spend as many extra resources as them to keep the same econ (55 power extra, compared to any other race using 75) despite them having more points... and this is really only an issue on specific maps. also in T2 you can make a serious push out with sents (decapping crit points if you have to and raiding their econ/decapping outer points) and/or a basilisk.

[DukeRustfield]

You are talking about T2 things. Power upgrade, Req upgrade, Basilisks, commander abilities. T2 IG are fine. It's T0-T1.

in T2 it IS on par with other races just through the morale upgrades. once you throw in leaders

What you are overlooking is that other races get upgrades in T2 as well. And in any situation you compare an upgraded...oh...anything, to an upgraded Guardsmen, the GM loses very very badly.

I see a lot of people saying "meh" who have obviously not seen the awesomeness that is 1.5 IG. At the very least they haven't played as them against a non-moron.

I'll bet cashola money right now that come a stat reset, any IG that were in the top 20 will be gone. The race has what is essentially an expensive cultist squad until T3.

[DatonKallandor]

An expensive cultist squad with the best fire support of all T2. (a cheap cultist squad actually, once the starting costs have balanced out by reinforcing)

I am not calling Chris an IG whiner, since he is not the one who want's guardsmen to be made obsolete by later tiers. There are other's in this thread though, to which I might or might not direct the above mentioned title.

As for your termie point: Marines in 1.5 hardly use a lot of termies. Most of the time you see Tacticals en-masse. Which is very mariney.


Daton

[I-Guard]

They are the Imperial Guard. Not the Imperial Kasrkin-which-just-so-happen-to-use-guardsmen-for-scouting. Having Guardsmen and even more Guardsmen is what makes IG, IG.


Daton

Oh ya especially when they cost alot. I would agree with your up above statement if I could actually mass a bunch of fragile weak guardsmen, but oh wait you cant do that.

[Chris]

not really... you can either sit their with half the econ or spend the power to even it out. the whole point is that you dont have to spend as many extra resources as them to keep the same econ (55 power extra, compared to any other race using 75) despite them having more points...

You seem to be missing the point. If they hold criticals and relics they won't need LP2s. Lets say IG are turtled in their base with 4 LP2ed points thats 18X4+20 from the HQ = +92 req income. Lets say the SM player has taken and LPed 4 points and 2 relics that's 12X6+20 from the HQ = +92req and you're on equal econ footing. You've spent 210 power he has spent 0.

[Falke]

Toot toot, here comes the clue train:

If you cannot compete in T0, you will be fighting an uphill battle against an enemy with superior map control and a superior economy.

Why? Becuase his capping squad will break morale, knock your capping squads off any outlying points and claim them as his own.

Bunkering? Wonderful. As Chris says, when you bunker down, you lose because you need to spend up big on LP's to match an enemy who's free to spend all his income on troops and tech. Or he can also put down LP's AND build troops and tech.

Distant bunkering? I've had some success with this (put down LP on distant points, queue up IC, Turret immediately after it's finished, then upgrade), but this puts you behind in the teching game. Which isn't somewhere you want to be.

Commisars? As has been said, commies (I feel strange using that word now) add to total squad morale, but do not increase the morale regeneration rate. Don't for a second think I'm saying commisars should give morale immunity, either -- just a boost to regen in line with the additional cap they grant.

How do you fix it? Buggered if I know. If you make Guard cheaper (!) to balance them in T0, they become OP'd for cost in later tiers.

Maybe make them cheaper, but the initial squad and re-enforce becomes more expensive as you tech up (to keep them balanced against cost)?

Give their econ a larger boost, so they can compete against an enemy with map control in the teching game, even with the cost of LP's factored in (which will break team games, but who cares about team games)? You also still run into the real-estate issue, since IG need a lot of it, possibly even more than Orks.

Just thoughts of someone ranked third from nowhere

Falk.

[plasmaonslaught]

I've seen a lot of IGers hold out till t2 and then pwn everything with artillary and sentinals.

IG ecnon is already really good - they can tech up faster than anybody and are hard to stop once they do.

[Chris]

I wonder if it is possible for squads to automatically cost less when a certain structure is built or a tier is reached? So your first few squads cost you 160 but then you build up a bit and your next 2 squads are cheaper so on and so forth. Of course it would have to be done so that it wouldn't be possible to skip over the 'expensive' squads in favour of the 'cheap' squads and you'd have to be really careful of creating a snowball effect.

[KotCR]

I wonder if it is possible for squads to automatically cost less when a certain structure is built or a tier is reached?

Yes it's possible. I've done it before.

[DukeRustfield]

People said it before and I'll agree with it: if you want IG to be what IG were supposed to be, give them an econ bonus. A SLIGHTLY higher req amount per point captured. Make it so that you recognize they will never get map control and thus let them turtle. Just make it so that them effectively turtling is equal to the enemy who has map control.

It makes the game more boring overall. But it's what the race was supposed to do.

[tl998]

I still say letting them get more commies and letting commies get execute in tier 1 is a good thing. Guardsmen are cappers. Guardsmen with Commies attached are tier 1 units.

[nude-fox]

noo more commies = even more cost i hardly use commies now as it is anywya


gm cost is problem

[The_Guardman]

Another possible solution is a mob bonus of a kind, similar to the ork's one.

[s-h-a-d-e]

The problem is that IG is now ecconomicaly crippled.
you have to get upgrades an commies so that your squads wont break instantly, you have to get upgrades so you can keep up the damage output at tier 2, you have to replace all your GM to keep up your firepower but at the same time you cant really cap anything outside of your base. also without the bugged armor, your IG die quickly and have to be replaced. this puts quite a strain on your ecconomy. espacilly in tier2 where you will be facing units that have a quite high dps. maybe there should be a research in tier2 that gives GM a better armor, because even in 1.41 IG tier2 wasnt that hot and now tier2 is a dead end for IG.

[Chris]

IG tier 2 in 1.41 was ridiculously powerful and I'm sure Stefan has a good laugh to himself when anyone says differently. Most IG players just didn't know what to do in tier 2 because it took more effort than tier 1 (but still less effort than other races tier 2) they just got this stupid idea in their heads that tier 2 is weak so that justifies them trying to win the game in tier 1.

[n0z3k1ll3r]

I honestly think bringing back the old eco bonus wouldn't be a bad move for the guard.

[ShadowWatch]

even on the t2, IG are great deal weaker

the main damage output is from guardsmen plasma

look at it's cost, 35/15 a piece, mounted on a crap plantform known as a guardsmen, the total cost difference between them and a sm heavy bolter marine is pising 25 req, on the other hand, the hb marine just out perform the guards three times plus.

if you think 25 is a great amount of money, you simply not thinking enough, first off it's only about 25% cost difference. secondly, the initial guard squrd cost a great deal more and are shit to maintain, you lose squard a great deal easier than sm and the sm in t1 is good investment and a mass of them owns just about anyone, guards die like flies. thirdly the upgrades takes freaking ages to upgrade and cost a great deal more, forthly, to get it's most potential, you need a prist with is 80/40 a piece and about a millinium and a half just to build one. fifthly, if the sm just have a little brain and he can tech with just 1-2 tacs with lp2s to defence, the sm fast vecle (ls or HF) can murder guards, there mech command are too slow to buld and the stone research is slow as hell

bassy? miss half the time and shots every 6 seconds, fact is, if theres less than 2, just laugh at their face and fart they will vanish

[nude-fox]

lol shadow watch IG is pretty good in HB a mix of sents HH and a bassy with some guard backup pawns

[The_Guardman]

You need like 2 or 3 veicle factory and 2 big gen + maxed reactors to do that in decent time, nude fox.