[Rules] Terminator Invulnerable Save

[cfoley]

I was looking at the Terminator entries in Codex Space Marines last night and noticed something very odd:

It appears that Terminator squads don't get a 5+ invulnerable save.

Bear with me. Nowhere does it say that they have Terminator armour. The 2+ is in their profile. The +1A is in their profile. Deep striking is listed as a special rule. No mention of a 5+ invulnerable.

Now, I haven't noticed this before and have been playing that they do have a 5+ save since it was introduced in third edition. I also believe (but obviously can't prove) that the intent is to give them the invulnerable save.

However, how can anyone justify using such an advantageous rule when it isn't listed in the codex?. "Oh, so you want a 5+ inv save on your Terminators. Fine, all my grots are monstrous creatures with lascannons and lightning claws."

[Fixer]

I believe the Terminator 5+ Invulnerable save is under the Wargear description.

[Popsumpot]

In the section under wargear, it states that Space Marine Terminators wears Tactical Dreadnought Suites. (Under the Terminator Armour entry.)

I was surprised at this when I spotted it too.

[cfoley]

After reading the wargear entry (again) I am confused to where it states that Terminators actually have it. Those rules apply to models who buy it from the armoury or are listed as having Terminator Armour.

Terminator squads don't have Terminator Armour as defined by the armoury. They have a series of specific upgrades which are similar, but not identical, to those afforded my the Armoury's Terminator Armour.

I've just noticed that Terminator squads can also make sweeping advances.

[Dark Watcher]

Does this mean that the sergeant of a terminator squad can take any wargear and not just those items marked with a "T"? Terminator sergeant with Plasma pistols!

[cfoley]

Apparently so. Completely ridiculous but also completely legal.

[BrianGeneral]

I guess it's not the case. Terminators are considered to have Terminator Armour and weapons from wargear, obviously, so that line of 5+ Invulnerable should work with them.

However, it's nice to know this to scare others away.

[Ap0k]

This is one of the reasons why RAW can be so utterly ridiculous at times.

They don't wear terminator armour. It's not listed in the unit wargear/weapons/items. They don't get the invulnerable save.

Obviously this is not the intent, but until Terminators are listed as wearing termy armour, they don't get any of the advantages (which, I guess would mean no more move and fire assault cannons, hrhr).

Of course, nobody plays it like this, because it's stupid.

[Popsumpot]

Below are some evidence that Terminators are equipped with Terminator Armour.


1st. The Codex says the following under wargear entry of Terminator Armour.

…Space Marines in Terminator armour are capable of moving and firing with heavy weapon. On the other hand, this armour is somewhat cumbersome, so Space Marine Terminators…

By the words “on the other hand”, it shows that this quote refers to one unit, and confirms that “Space Marines in Terminator Armour” are the same as “Space Marine Terminators.”


2nd. The Codex says the following under Land Raider/ Land Raider Crusader entry under army list.

A Land Raider can transport up to *number* Space Marines in power armour, or *number* Space Marine Terminators

By wording of “or”, it shows that this rule express the statement that “Space Marines in power armour” is not the same as “Space Marine Terminators”, and also show that Terminators are larger in size because the Land Raider can carry twice as much Power armoured marines. There is only three kinds of armour available to Space Marines: Scout Carapace, Power Armour and Terminator Armour. By logical reasoning, the rule above states that what ever Space Marine Terminators wear, it is bigger than the Power Armour, hence they must be wearing Terminator Armour.

3rd. The Codex says the following under Aspire To Glory under Disadvantages of the Traits section

…Dreadnoughts and Terminator armour for example require rare artificer skills. A recently founded Chapter may take centuries to acquire such wquipment and, should battle losses be heavy, replacements are not readily available… *the following rules sets limits on Terminator Squads of all kinds and Dreadnoughts*

The first section of this text shows that new chapters are low on Dreadnoughts and Terminator armour, therefore, they are very precious, so the chapter doesn’t have as much of these resources available for battle as other older chapters. The following rules restrict Terminator Squads, showing that there is a connection between the lack of Terminator armour and the lack of Terminator Squads, therefore, by logical reasoning, we arrive at the conclusion that Terminators do indeed wear Terminator Armour.


4th The Codex the following in Captain Lysander’s entry under Special Characters, and the Terminator Armour entry under Wargear.

…Also, any model wearing Terminator armour can be teleported onto the battlefield, and set up using the Deep Strike rule…

Lysander has become adept at leading his company into battle by teleportation…If an Imperial Fist army including Lysander elects to deploying its Terminators by Deep Strike, Lysander will lead the assault…

The above text taking from the Lysander rules states that the methode of deep strike that Terminators use is teleportation, backed up by the fact that the name of that rule is “Teleport Assault”. Combining this information with the entry in the Terminator entry in the army list, and the information under Wargear leads me to believe that Terminators only have the Deep Strike rule because they can teleport. Adeptus Astartes do not use teleportation on any other subject other than Space Marines who are wearing Terminator Armour, this fact backed up by the Wargear entry. Therefore, Terminators deep strike because they can teleport, they can teleport because Terminator Armour enables them to, hence Terminators wear Termiantor Armour.


5th The Codex says the following in the Terminator entry under Army List, and the Armoury Section

Chainfist…(models in Terminator armour only)

Any model with a power fist may replace it with a Chainfist at *more points*

The connection between the above two rules is that Chainfists may only be taken by models wearing Terminator Armour, and for the option of upgrading from a power fist to a Chainfist available to Terminators, it means that Terminators are wearing Terminator Armour.


6th The Codex says the following in the Terminator entry under Army List, and the Cyclone Missile Launcher under the Wargear section.

Up to two Terminators…or may add a cyclone missile launcher to their existing weaponry at *more points*

The Cyclone is a specially designed missile launcher that can be used by Space marines in Terminator armour. The Terminators is equipped with a…

By the wordings of the above rule, we again see a connection between “Space Marines in Terminator Armour” and “Terminators”. Backed up by the entry from the Terminators rules, it supports that Terminators wear Terminator Armour.


With all the above information, I hope I have cleared this issue.

Note: texts between the * are where I censored rules such as points values and other important things so that non-codex-owning persons can take advantage of this post

[Gotchaye]

It's still not there. By the rules as written, Termies don't have Termie armor.

Addressing in order -

1. The quote says nothing of the sort. It only says that Terminator Armor being heavy means that Terminators have a special rule. That in no way means that Terminators wear Terminator Armor. Perhaps Terminators, because they sometimes wear Terminator Armor, constantly carry really heavy weights when outside of Terminator Armor so as to accustom themselves to its limitations. Thus, Terminators are slow because Terminator Armor is heavy, even though they're not wearing it. It's silly, but it's perfectly possible.

2. By that reasoning, Scouts are larger than even Terminators - it can't carry any of them. Perhaps it's simply part of the Codex Astartes that LRs can only carry 5 Termies and can't carry Scouts, and so, while an inefficient way to do things, is the way they're done. Maybe Terminators, as decorated veterans, are less willing to cram in to a LR with 9 of their smelly battle brothers, and so they use their political pull within the Chapter to get better seating.

3. Again, you're assuming direct causation. We can easily construct another indirect chain as in my response to your first statement by claiming that a lack of Terminator Armor for a Chapter results in fewer numbers of Marines bothering to train for the role.

4. This one is rife with assumptions. There's absolutely no rules-based reason to think that Marines only teleport things by using Termie armor.

5. Terminators don't have access to the Armory, so it's unclear whether or not the limitation would even apply to them. Secondly, the rule in the Terminator entry can be read to simply override the Armory limitation.

6. Power Fists can also be used by Space Marines in Terminator Armor. Does that mean that all Marines with Power Fists are wearing Terminator Armor? The fact that CMLs can be used by things in TA doesn't mean that all things that use CMLs are in TA.

Sure, it's a great deal of circumstantial evidence, and, knowing what we do about the fluff and the way GW operates, it's obvious that Termies have TA, but it's utterly against the rules. Heck, I can even provide precedent showing that they don't have it. Just check out the DH Codex and look at GK Termies. Their entry specifically states that they have Terminator Armor. The codex also came out before the new Marine codex. Surely any company that puts the slightest effort into proofreading its rules would have caught that, and the fact that they obviously chose not to include it in the SM entry means that they didn't mean for Termies to have Termie Armor. As well, there's an issue with the extra attack that comes with TA. If you're giving Termies an invulnerable save that's not listed in their profile, it seems that you have to give them an extra attack too, and I certainly wouldn't play against someone trying that (of course, I'd also let someone use the invulnerable save).

[Popsumpot]

Actually, that doesn't make any sense. That's like saying that I can run 20 seconds for 100m whenever I wear a 20kg back pack. But if I take it off, I still only run 20 seconds for 100m because that 20kg back pack is heavy even though I'm not wearing it.

It's not the heavy issue, it's the wording. There is a connection between those two. The words "On the other hand", means that the same sentence refers to the same unit.

The official fluff on the second one says that Scouts are made for inflitrating ahead, and the Codex Arstartes define scouts to fight seperate from the main force, and Transports should be avioded for stealth.

It makes more sense if the Chapter train as many Terminator wearers as possible to ensure that they can get the most out of their already available suits.

The fourth one does make some assumptions, but it is reasonable to assume that.

Actually, the rules does mean that all things that use CML are in TA. It specificly state that the Cyclonic Missile Launcher is specially designed for use by models wearing Terminator Armour. If Terminators have the option to use Cyclonic Missile Launchers, than they has to be wearing Terminator Armour.

Of course, than you might argue that to ensure that Termiantors are wearing Terminator Armour, than you would have to take a Cyclonic Missile Launcher...

[Fixer]

I think I can sum up this entire thread in one sentence.

"I don't want my space marine playing opponents to have 5+ invulnerable saves on their terminator squads because of an obscure wording in the codex"

Technically Terminators would not be able to move and fire with their assault cannons since they are heavy weapons.

It is a silly thread. I wonder if the eldar had anything to do with it.

Maybe I should force every chaos player to remove his Demon prince from the table since it doesn't match the decription in the Codex that says the miniature must be twelve feet tall.

[AceRimmer]

Maybe I should force every chaos player to remove his Demon prince from the table since it doesn't match the decription in the Codex that says the miniature must be twelve feet tall.

It does say to scale, Fixer. It's also ten feet.

Does anyone else feel that the game would be better served if we weren't so anally retentive about it?

[Fey]

I agree with you Rimmer. This is just being too nitpicky. Mind you, I had one of my friend argued with me that Termies are slow and purposeful. Of course he was wrong.

There is one connection that confirms Terminator Armour. In the BT codex, they describe some Sword Brethren squads to train in the use of Terminator Armour. At the side of the unit info, it says Sword Brethren Terminators. A big connection there.

Lastly, its the "what you see is what you get" rule. Characters who have Terminator Armour looks similar to the normal Terminator Armour.

[HopkinsWFG]

I agree with Rimmer too.

There is nothing worse than an opponent who tries absolutly everything in the world to get an advantage, including picking on the wording of the codex books.

[Fixer]

With that statement I link you this picture:
http://www.rpgshop.com/images/uploaded/RulesLawyer.gif

When the Tau first came out a guy played the 'my entire army is behind the invisible stealth team and therefore cannot be shot at' trick. Made no sense, but it was 'rules as written' until they FAQed it.

Somewhere in the front of the Warhammer 40k rulebook i'm sure it says something about common sense.

[Ap0k]

I was going to write a big post that proved you wrong Pop, but I thought I'd do a little research on things before going down that route. As it happens, neither of us is right, nor wrong.

Here is argument on Dakka that raged for 5 pages, and still did not come to a conclusion. Both main proponents were wrong in their own way (Relic_OMO had some of his premises wrong, mauleed made assumptions based on fluff).

This is an argument that you can't provide conclusive proof for. It's also why arguing over RAW is completely, and utterly, 100% stupid.

It makes sense for Termies to have terminator armour, so thats the way every player plays it. Doing anything else is just anal, regardless of what evidence there is, or isn't, to back up whether or not they do actually have terminator armour.

[MooFreaky]

I agree that anyone who actually made you play Terminators in such a manner would be pricks. However, that said, they do actually have every right to do so. It's not their fault that GW did a poor job.
It is stated nowhere that Termies actually wear the same Terminator Armour that is described in the armoury. Thus is can be concluded that you must go with their profile.
This means they have a 2+ save and no invulnerable.

It also means they do not always count as stationary when shooting.

It's obviously not what was intended, but there is no case to prove otherwise. As there is absolutely nothing that says Termies actually wear Terminator Armour.
Who knows, maybe they are wearing soemthing that is slightly less advanced than that on offer to the Officers and such.

But, I don't think many people would make you play such rules. And if they did, they would likely get few games. I would never make someone play Termies in such a manner. Whenever I feel a rule has been written poorly, giving it a different outcome to what was obviously intended (Turbo Boosting Bikes vs Psycannons...) then I allow the opponent to play how we feel is is intended.
If for no other reason then to make the game more fun.


Also, I get the feeling some people are actually assuming Cfoley is intending to play like this. Or is very tight on such rules. If that is the case then you guys are very wrong. He's just bringing up a valid point.

[cfoley]

Rimmer, you are exactly right, and I totally accept that this thread is absolutely ridiculous. I also wouldn't even consider denying my opponent a 5+ save in a game. That sort of behaviour would ensure that nobody would ever give me a second game. It would also be really stupid of me as I play Space Marines myself.

The thread was intended to spark debate about the nature of the rules, how easy it is to determine the intent of the games designer, possibly how far you would take the letter of the rules in tournament play and a whole host of relates issues as well as trying to find a way to prove that they actually DO have Terminator armour. I wanted to see how the debate would end up but it looks like it's going to stagnate and get bogged down on in the specific Terminator issue.

[Dooks Dizzo]

Not that I really agree with this but to back cfoley further:

On page 41 of the codex it lists all the stat lines for the various units in the codex. No where does it mark any unit as having an invulnerable save like some codex's do (CSM, Daemonhunters) by showing 2/5+* for example.

Does anyone have a copy of the Wargear book? Does that clarify anything?

RAW is retarded and should only be brought out in times of dire emergency.

Here's another one that burns my ass: Drop Pods.

I have had someone tell me that if your Pod scatters into a FRIENDLY unit it is destroyed. Because the codex only specifies Impassible and enemy units.

I hate rules lawyers.

[Gotchaye]

From what I hear, the Wargear book's no good. While it may or may not give them an Inv save, it also gives them a 3+ regular save. On Drop Pods, I had thought that the Deep Strike rules themselves didn't specify what to do if you scattered into friendly units. It's just a hole in the rules where we're given absolutely no guidance.

Ap0k, that just means that Pop's wrong. You don't have to prove that the rules don't say something; it's the job of those who want to claim that Termies have TA to prove that that's the case, and, as you say, they can't.

[Dooks Dizzo]

You can't prove a negative...

[Brother Wolf]

Here's another one that burns my ass: Drop Pods.

What does the rulebook say about friendly vehicles and units? Pretty dure that should cover SOMETHING.

[Dooks Dizzo]

It doesn't because GW hates me.

[cain19822004]

What's the point of this thread?

Honestly, it's stupid, more interesting threads have been closed for less than this.

Of course Space Marine Terminators wear Terminator Armour, the clues in their name, and what does it look like they are wearing? Unless of course you are proxying models, but that's just stupid, if you don't have the models, don't have them in your army.

Anyway, pure and simple, Terminators wear Terminator Armour, I can't believe it even needs discussing.

[DatonKallandor]

The point is, there is no written proof that Terminators do wear Termie armor. Its specified on all other units wearing it - but not on them. Thus, going with what is written down and undisputable, they don't wear it.


Daton

[BL4D3W4LK3R]

I don't think I would play a game with someone who wanted to insist that Terminators don't have Terminator armor. Do people actually play it that way or is this just being argued for entertainment value? If "rules lawyering" of this type is commonplace in the hobby I am glad I only play at home. How is the rule interpreted for GT and other GW sanctioned events?

[Zarathustrian]

It is only argued for "entertainment" value.
So don´t fear arguments like this are not very common.

[MooFreaky]

Cain, are you just looking to pick a fight?
My god, if you don't like it then don't post.

It's actually a very intersting point. So rather than just posting a whinging post, why don't you back up what your saying. It's actually rather clear, from what evidence has been provided, that you could be forced to not claim that save.
There is no other unit that uses wargear from the armoury. Armoury is only available to specific units, and as such, the armoury entry cannot be used. Thus you must go with their profile. And as their profile doesn't state any special rules (and every other unit with special rules has them stated there), then you cannot claim them.
Obviously this is only going to happen against a real wang of a player. But if you are at a tournament you never know who you will be up against.

I mean a contender for the Best General crown, final game, things going against him, he fires some AP2 weapons at your termies. Maybe he will contest as he's desperate to win.

Right now you are simply relying on your own interpretation on the rules. The point of this is to find evidence to prove it either way.
You are also relying on your own interpretation of what is and is not interesting. And as 2 mods have posted in here, you can assume it's of some interest to them too.

[DoomKnights]

If you look at the US space marine online website this is what you get.

Space Marine Terminator Squad



All Space Marine Chapters maintain a number of suits of the revered and rightly feared tactical Dreadnought armour or Terminator armour, as it is more commonly known. The armour is massively bulky and contains a full exo-skeleton arrangement of fibre bundles and adamantium rods to support the heavy gauge plasteel and ceramite plates that form the outer carapace. A wearer of Terminator armour can move and operate with remarkable freedom and agility considering the sheer mass of the actual armour.

There it is writen and now we can stop this thread.

[DatonKallandor]

Fluff =/= Rules.


Daton

[Dooks Dizzo]

I would like to point out that it is clearly stated in the Daemonhunters codex that the 5+ invul and +1 attack are included in their profile.

hence it could be argued that failure to state these things means that they don't in fact get them.

Maybe Grey Knight Terminators have better armor?

I have no idea where I would find it but there was an article written somewhere some time back (begining 3rd ed?) about the Crux Terminatus and that terminator units always benefit from a 5+ save. Though I cannot remember the exact wording. Might have been an ancient chapter approved.

[cain19822004]

I simply meant that in countless places, Terminators have been mentioned as be wearing Terminator Armour, and I don't know if anyone else has noticed, but in the Armoury sections of many Codex's, they have Armoury enteries for items that aren't selectable through the Armoury itself, such as Demolition Charges and such.

Justin.

[MooFreaky]

True. But when a unit has demolition charges it is clearly stated that they have demolition charges.
However, there is NOWHERE that states termies are wearing Termie armour. For all we know these could be Terminators that wear a different class of armour. Still Termie armour, but an older version.
But you can't just use armoury rules when there is nothing in the entry saying they are equipped with it.

Notice the big difference?

And fluff is meaningless in the game. If we used fluff as a basis for whether rules are right or not. Then we could state that marines are soooooooo much tougher than a normal human, thus they should have the entry of "T 4(5)"
They obviously miswrote it...

EDIT : And of all those countless places can you please source one, Cain. Somewhere in the rulebook or an FAQ that states, as a rule (not fluff) that Termies are wearing Terminator Armour.

[Dooks Dizzo]

In reality it doesn't even say that Marines wear Power Armor. Their 3+ save is from tough skin and armored underwear.

[Havock]

if anyone tries to dispute it:
termie squad says that any member can be upgraded with a chainfist, now:
- a chainfist is termie-only
- if they wouldn't be terminators, then there is a serious issue with the codex, "and I am affraid I can't play against you until GW releases a full FAQ cncerning every possible other interpretation...which would be about the same time involving "hell" and "freezing over"

[Gotchaye]

I addressed that already, Havock. If Witchblades were 'Farseers only' in the armory, but if Warlocks had, as a special rule, 'may take a Witchblade for 5 points', there's no problem. Warlocks still wouldn't be Farseers, but they'd have a special rule that overrides the more general restriction in the armory. It's the same as the Vindicaire's special rule - Marksman, as a unit special rule, overrides the more general targeting restrictions given in the rulebook.

[n0z3k1ll3r]

Is "they very very clearly have Terminator Armour on every model you can possibly buy for them" a good argument? I don't think GW would release a completely illegal model range to accompany their own ruleset.

[Zatrais]

Eh, what you see is what you get (page 22) and as there is one and only 1 suit of terminator armour the squads of terminators has to be wearing the suit of armour described on page 25.

[Cynical Rabbit]

As another example, for Orks Burna's are Mek Only, but you can buy them for squads.

[MooFreaky]

People are trying to use logic here. Logic is useless in this sense, as it is in proving definitions in law. What you need is evidence from official sources.
We all agree it is logical for them to be wearing Termie armour. What we are debating are the rules, and so you can prove Cfoley's statement wrong is by showing where he is wrong in the rules. As he is following the rules to the letter, regardless of whether that is the popular thing to do or not.

As for WYSIWYG. There is nowhere that states they are wearing Termie armour, so it's simply that you are modeling extra items on them (same way I can give my Vet Serg a Missile Launcher, Bolt Pistol, Bolter, CCW, Power Fist and a Standard if I want. Doesn't mean he's using it all.
You could use normal marines, just moddeled to look different as Termies. Are you aren't actually required to model Terminator Armour, as they aren't wearing it.

I would never play anyone who actually tried to enforce such a rule, but that's not the point.

[[Vertigo]]

This may be one off but I have an idea. Check the Chaos Elite entry for Chaos Choosen. Pay close attention to the armour save for the Chosen Terminator and the Chosen Terminator Champion, only 2+; just like the problem we have now. Now compare that entry to the quick reference at the end of the codex! Notice that the Chosen Terminators and Chosen Terminator Champions are listed as having a 2+/5+!

[cfoley]

However, the Terminator entry in the Space Marine summary lists their save as being 2+. Could the difference between this and the CSM entry you cited be taken as a deliberate difference? I doubt it as there are many such inconsistencies in the rules. However, it does discredit your logic.

Chainfists are not necessarily only for models in Terminator armour. The Chainfist rules entry contains the entire set of rules for this weapon. There is no mention of such a restriction. The Armoury restricts them to models in Terminator Armour. However, this only applies when the chainfist is selected from the Armoury. If it is selected via a different mechanism then this restriction does not apply.

In fact, Terminator squads can take chainfists through a different mechanism. Since Terminators don't have Terminator armour (we can assume this is correct because after 42 posts, nobody has provided solid evidence to the contrary) this is a perfect example of a model with different armour having access to chainfists.

Just to preempt the obvious question, Terminators have generic 2+ save armour.

[[Vertigo]]

I wasn't really making a point, Cfoley. The two codex are completely different from each other I know that. This does bring a slightly different angle to the argument though. The Imperial Guard codex has a typo in the quick reference guide at the back of the book. The typo is that the Hellhound has a front AV of 13 contradicting the main entry. This typo was addressed in the Imperial Guard FAQ; though, it does make one question the validity of the CSM quick reference guide.

[cfoley]

There have been quite a few mistakes in the reference sheets. Every FAQ released has ruled in favour of the main body of the book (i.e. the reference sheets were wrong). I suspect that your example is the first one where the reference sheet is right.

[/common sense] Let's get on with the thread.

[[Vertigo]]

The only thing left, Cfoley, is to look for precedence in other publications. I know there are other Space Marine Codex out there what do they do with regardes to Terminators?

[Murphy[Ork]]

Problem with your chaos analogy Vertigo is that it specifically states int he chaos codex that the chosen can be upgraded to wear Terminator Armour.

Looking at all the entries in the SM codex, any point where they have a specific piece of equiptment (like assault squads wearing jump packs) it always states the piece of equiptment.

I think this is quite a big hole and is also pretty bad for new players, alot of new players might not even know they get a +5 save.

Theres a couple of dickheads I might have to try this out on down my local GW, see what happens, ill report back once im banned

[[Vertigo]]

Problem with your chaos analogy Vertigo is that it specifically states int he chaos codex that the chosen can be upgraded to wear Terminator Armour.

Oh my God, I just had the most disgusting idea ever! Normaly, it would state that the benifits of Terminator Armour are all ready added to the unit's profile; it doesn't say anything like that for the Chosen Terminators nor the Chosen Terminator Champions. Which would mean they get +1 attack and a +2/+5 added to their profile. You are correct it does state, you have to read really hard to get it, that they do wear "Terminator Armour".

Character: Chosen in power armour or Terminator armour can further...

Though it doesn't state that they use the Terminator armour from the armory; which would mean they still have to use the stats listed for them. They to, would get only a generic 2+ armour save as a result.

[n0z3k1ll3r]

Actually, on the flip side of this whole argument couldn't you stick 10 Terminators in transports as they aren't, technically, wearing Terminator Armour?

[pinkyclown]

15 in a LRC